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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I get that.

But it sounds like you want to segragate them.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Brilliant, Lutheranchik.

I see no way forward but to ignore them. We've listened to them. That worked out great, didn't it? So, now let's not. Can it be worse than what we've got at present? (No, don't answer that, because tomorrow will prove us wrong.)

One of the Parkland students had a great tweet the other day, pointing out how the denigrators, conspiracy theorist whackos, and gun nuts are utterly alien to the American spirit. He advised them to get over it. The most devastating line was the last and the truest: Because we will outlive you.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm intending to get The Faith of Donald Trump when I can bring myself to order it, with a view to trying to do so at least as regards evangelicals.

If you want the short version, the New York Times has turned over some valuable editorial column inches so author David Brody can plug his book. (An "advertorial"?) It'll only cost you one of your five monthly Times clicks, and we're near the end of the calendar month as it is.

The short version of Brody's explanation is that Trump has learned to tell Evangelicals what they want to hear and is willing to write big checks to Tony Perkins (maybe). He also "has delivered the policy goods", by which Brody means "the courts, pro-life policies, the coming Embassy in Jerusalem and religious liberty issues". Presumably slashing corporate tax rates and opposing immigration (both legal and illegal) were omitted for the sake of brevity. Despite this assessment, Brody objects to characterizing evangelical support for Trump as "transactional".

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Eutychus
From the edge
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I'd already gathered most of that from reviews, but I'm set to read the long version as some sort of lenten penance.

Meanwhile I see Kushner has just had his security clearance downgraded - surely an "Oops" moment.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Barnabas62
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LutheranChik's post seems wincingly accurate to me, and also explains the attraction of Trump's persona and public behaviour. He has legitimised a toxic outlook, bought into it, fed it, made it respectable.

But the question Eutychus asks is very important. What is the aim of understanding the phenomenon? Simply to defeat it at the ballot box - which would really be good? Or to find ways of rescuing folks from this toxic world view? At least some of them, anyway.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Eutychus
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I'm convinced that the answer to the partisan divide is not, or should not be, a zero-sum game.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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I'd quote Jesus. Let the dead bury their dead. Thank God, the younger generation wants to do better.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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That is perhaps a pertinent point. If the majority of the trumpistae are getting on in years, then death will eventually remove them.

One can only hope that they are not succeeded by another generation of that ilk.....

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Re T and heel spurs:

Thanks for all the input. [Smile] My concern was mainly that people (here or elsewhere) didn't seem to be specifying that both a) heel spurs are legit problems, and b) T didn't really have them. It came across to me as "T claimed heel spurs, which don't really exist, so clearly he was lying".

I did a little poking around, and found some relevant info:

"6 Surprising Medical Conditions That’ll Disqualify You From Service" (Task & Purpose).
Mentions flat feet, but not heel spurs.

On various answer sites (quora, etc.), people asked about wearing prescription orthotics in the military. Answerers identifying themselves as military gave varying replies--basically, depends on your recruiter, how desperate the military is, whether you can get a waiver, whether you're willing to serve in a job where it wouldn't be an issue, etc.

"Medical Conditions That May Prevent You From Joining the Military" (Military.com).
This is very detailed. No mention of heel spurs or flat feet--at least, not by those names. But there are lots of foot-related things. (And a bewildering array of issues with genitalia! [Ultra confused] )

FYI.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I'd quote Jesus. Let the dead bury their dead. Thank God, the younger generation wants to do better.

Time magazine begs to differ: Young Americans Are Actually Not Becoming More Progressive (the Washington Post has a similar article, but I've preferred to quote an article not behind a paywall).

FYI, the last time I heard the sort of argument you're using invoked was by a Reconstructionist (the "christian" kind) arguing that essentially, the Republic of Gilead would eventually triumph simply because all the gays etc. would, and I quote, be "dying off".

Hoping your side wins because your adversaries get on with dying at the earliest opportunity doesn't really strike me as the way to heal the partisan rifts in the US, or anywhere else for that matter.

[ 28. February 2018, 07:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Barnabas62
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Youth culture has always been a mixture of narcissism and idealism, and I doubt that will change substantially. And of course Trump is a classic example of a narcissist.

We used to paraphrase a chorus when talking about this issue.

"It's all about me, Jesus
It's all about me, for my glory and my fame
It's not about you, as if I should do things your way".

The thing about Florida is that for many of the young survivors, the horrible experience has generated a greater idealism, a willingness to look critically at wider issues, and the courage to challenge the status quo. I'm hoping these effects will last. Once they realise what a long slog it will be to get any kind of meaningful change, they may become discouraged.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Marvin the Martian

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# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
That is perhaps a pertinent point. If the majority of the trumpistae are getting on in years, then death will eventually remove them.

The problem there is that the generation that's currently about 70 years old also happens to be the generation that were teenagers during the sixties - you know, the decade that's famous for being full of teenagers who espoused peace, free love, flower power and the like.

Either they changed their minds or the highly visible liberal ones were only ever a minority. So who's to say the same things won't also be true of today's crop of teenagers?

Don't rely on demographics to do the job for you. Get out there and win hearts and minds to your cause.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Well, quite.

The trouble is that I was a teenager in the 60s, too, so I'm now on my way out.....

Fair point, though.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
That is perhaps a pertinent point. If the majority of the trumpistae are getting on in years, then death will eventually remove them.

The problem there is that the generation that's currently about 70 years old also happens to be the generation that were teenagers during the sixties - you know, the decade that's famous for being full of teenagers who espoused peace, free love, flower power and the like.

Either they changed their minds or the highly visible liberal ones were only ever a minority. So who's to say the same things won't also be true of today's crop of teenagers?

Don't rely on demographics to do the job for you. Get out there and win hearts and minds to your cause.

I'm didn't reach my teens until the 1970's (and let's face it, the "sixties" actually ran from 1965 to 1974) but I'm pretty sure that for every peace-loving would-be hippie there were five squares who never did anything more out-of-line than get drunk a couple of times and go into a cold sweat about whether they or their girl had conclusively Got Into Trouble.

I suppose modern teenagers might be somewhat angrier on the whole, but with fewer jobs and less hope of a home of their own, it's not surprising.

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The problem there is that the generation that's currently about 70 years old also happens to be the generation that were teenagers during the sixties - you know, the decade that's famous for being full of teenagers who espoused peace, free love, flower power and the like.

Either they changed their minds or the highly visible liberal ones were only ever a minority. ...

As Joe Scarborough puts it, even today, you're either with John Wayne or Jane Fonda. No generation is a monolith. Regardless of the relative numbers, generally speaking, the Fondas gravitate to urban areas and the Wayners stay in flyover country. Toss in local control of education and you can pretty much guarantee that young Wayners will be at least - or even more - as insular, ignorant, prejudiced and "conservative" as their parents.

Even if the Wayners are a declining minority, gerrymandering and the Electoral College give them disproportionate political power. So in addition to waiting for them die and changing their hearts and minds, there's an upcoming census and redistricting. If the Democrats miss this boat again, the Republicans will lock up a majority of elected offices with a minority of voters for another 10 years.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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LutheranChik
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# 9826

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Eutychus: I'm not sure where in earth you get the idea that I wish to "segregate" Trumpists. Apart from the sheer silliness of that, there's also the fact that the psychological profile of Trumpists spans all classes and situations.There are Ladies Who Lunch and Izod- clad retirees on the golf course who are Trumpists; farmers; business owners; executive types; people who live in trailer parks, subsisting on the services that their hero is working to end.

I think one of the things that's sent us off the rails, that rational people need to address, is the idea that one idea is as good as another; that my ignorance is as good as so done else's knowledge.This is a dangerous assault on rational thinking, and frankly the more rational among us ( looking sternly at you, too, media) have humored or merely laughed at the bold ignorance and outrageousness of the Trumpists and their allies for far too long.In the US we often have the attitude that it is unfair and undemocratic to point out that someone's ideas are stupid and unworthy of serious discussion...even when they are. I doubt the Founders were as timid about confronting uninformed and irrational thinking.!

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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Ah, the effect of postmodernism on manners. "This is my truth, tell me yours".

I think it is good to challenge bad ideas, irrational thinking. But it's a bit like the cult problem. When folks are trapped in a self-enclosing ideology, breaking through the armour around their delusions may require great skill and a lot of patience.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I'd quote Jesus. Let the dead bury their dead. Thank God, the younger generation wants to do better.

Time magazine begs to differ: Young Americans Are Actually Not Becoming More Progressive (the Washington Post has a similar article, but I've preferred to quote an article not behind a paywall).
The 'tell' in these kinds of analysis is who counts as a "Young American" and who doesn't. From the first paragraph:

quote:
For years, it has been said that Republicans have a “young-people problem” — the party, it was assumed, just couldn’t attract young voters. Yet despite predictions it would experience an “historic trouncing” in 2016, among young voters, 37% of young adults voted for Trump (about the same as voted for Mitt Romney in 2012), with Trump winning among white young adults by 48% to 43%.
For whatever reason only white voters seem to count in these kinds of analyses. Even in those terms the data seem to be moving in the wrong direction for the Republican party. According to CNN 51% of white voters age 18-29 cast their ballot for Mitt Romney in 2012, while only 47% of voters that age voted for Donald Trump in 2016. A four percentage point slide among young white voters in a party that is increasingly becoming a white nationalist party would seem to be a problem.

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm didn't reach my teens until the 1970's (and let's face it, the "sixties" actually ran from 1965 to 1974) . . .

I'd pigeonhole "The Sixties" as the period of time between November 22, 1963 and August 9, 1974.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I think one of the things that's sent us off the rails, that rational people need to address, is the idea that one idea is as good as another; that my ignorance is as good as so done else's knowledge.

I'm with you there, but unfortunately not many of the Democrats I read online seem to be there. The best defence against fake news is to relentlessly and patiently debunk it with rational arguments, not throw insults or mock.

And while not all views may be equally valid, a place has somehow to be found for those holding what we may feel to be unpalatable views. That's society. If the stereotypical Trump voter is dismissed as "white trash" or "old", there's a problem somewhere.

[ETA Croesos, that makes me not born in the Sixties [Waterworks] ]

[ 28. February 2018, 14:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Ah, the effect of postmodernism on manners. "This is my truth, tell me yours".
...

I think it's been around longer than that, at least in the USA, and I think it comes more from the fallacy that if all men are created equal, then everyone's knowledge or opinions are also equal.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I'd quote Jesus. Let the dead bury their dead. Thank God, the younger generation wants to do better.

Time magazine begs to differ: Young Americans Are Actually Not Becoming More Progressive (the Washington Post has a similar article, but I've preferred to quote an article not behind a paywall).
The 'tell' in these kinds of analysis is who counts as a "Young American" and who doesn't. From the first paragraph:

quote:
For years, it has been said that Republicans have a “young-people problem” — the party, it was assumed, just couldn’t attract young voters. Yet despite predictions it would experience an “historic trouncing” in 2016, among young voters, 37% of young adults voted for Trump (about the same as voted for Mitt Romney in 2012), with Trump winning among white young adults by 48% to 43%.
For whatever reason only white voters seem to count in these kinds of analyses. Even in those terms the data seem to be moving in the wrong direction for the Republican party. According to CNN 51% of white voters age 18-29 cast their ballot for Mitt Romney in 2012, while only 47% of voters that age voted for Donald Trump in 2016. A four percentage point slide among young white voters in a party that is increasingly becoming a white nationalist party would seem to be a problem.

The same is true of the oft-touted stats re evangelicals. When you look at the methodology employed, it is always white evangelicals they are counting. And yes, it is disturbing/ upsetting/ dismaying (especially to an evangelical pastor such as myself) that such a shockingly large percentage of white evangelicals support Trump despite all the obvious reasons not to. But it is only white evangelicals. About 1/3 of American evangelicals (and the majority of evangelicals globally) are non-white and, not surprisingly, non-white evangelicals are overwhelmingly not Trumpsters.

Millennials even more so are a plurality-- with more non-whites or biracial young people than white.

All of which helps explain why Trump is able to appeal so much to a segment of white voters who feel like "America" as they understand it is "slipping away" (and why some of us say "good riddance" to that "America"). They really should change those hats to say "MAWA" rather than MAGA.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Barnabas62
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Fascinating turn in the discussion. Quite a lot to say at this point, but I think I'll save it for a little while.

It's about an hour before we cross the Great Divide and I've got a few final duties "over there". A continuation Trump thread has already been set up.

See you later!

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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... and then when you add to the discrepancy among white and non-white voters (both evangelical and millennial) the growing evidence of systemic disenfranchisement of non-white voters, you can see how we ended up with 45.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'd pigeonhole "The Sixties" as the period of time between November 22, 1963 and August 9, 1974.

As far as American society, those are good bookends. One could also argue April 30, 1975.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The same is true of the oft-touted stats re evangelicals. When you look at the methodology employed, it is always white evangelicals they are counting. And yes, it is disturbing/ upsetting/ dismaying (especially to an evangelical pastor such as myself) that such a shockingly large percentage of white evangelicals support Trump despite all the obvious reasons not to. But it is only white evangelicals. About 1/3 of American evangelicals (and the majority of evangelicals globally) are non-white and, not surprisingly, non-white evangelicals are overwhelmingly not Trumpsters.

A fairly convincing case can be made that "white evangelicalism" is different theologically from the evangelicalism practiced by non-whites. That "white evangelicals" are not so much "evangelicals who happen to be white" but rather "evangelicals whose whiteness is an important component of their evangelicalness". As such I'd argue that "white evangelicals" and "non-white evangelicals" aren't two different subdivisions of one thing called "evangelicalism" but rather two different things.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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mousethief

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I've also seen December 6, 1969 mooted.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The same is true of the oft-touted stats re evangelicals. When you look at the methodology employed, it is always white evangelicals they are counting. And yes, it is disturbing/ upsetting/ dismaying (especially to an evangelical pastor such as myself) that such a shockingly large percentage of white evangelicals support Trump despite all the obvious reasons not to. But it is only white evangelicals. About 1/3 of American evangelicals (and the majority of evangelicals globally) are non-white and, not surprisingly, non-white evangelicals are overwhelmingly not Trumpsters.

A fairly convincing case can be made that "white evangelicalism" is different theologically from the evangelicalism practiced by non-whites. That "white evangelicals" are not so much "evangelicals who happen to be white" but rather "evangelicals whose whiteness is an important component of their evangelicalness". As such I'd argue that "white evangelicals" and "non-white evangelicals" aren't two different subdivisions of one thing called "evangelicalism" but rather two different things.
Yes, although of course there are white evangelicals (I hope to count myself among them) who don't fit in that "white evangelical" camp. Yet another reason why the progressive strain of evangelicalism will need to rebrand with a different name. I'm just heartbroken for Wesley and all those progressive evangelicals who went before us that the Wrong Team got custody of the family name.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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