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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: In which he invites discourse on the demerits of MoTR churches
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Yes, I've known evangelicals who've participated in various ecumenical ventures. My point wasn't that all evangelicals are the same!
Gee D's post emphasised that Uniting Christians and RCs happily engaged in a joint witness this Easter. Nothing was said about the participation of anyone else. But it seems to be the case that when people (such as ExclamationMark above) on this website and elsewhere talk about denominational difficulties with ecumenicalism these days, they usually refer to problems between MOTR churches and certain evangelical groups - not between the MOTR churches and the RCC.
[ 02. June 2017, 18:00: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure, it varies. The local Pentecostals here get on very well with everyone, including the RCs. In other places, such as my wife's home town, the Penties were very much out on a limb - or were until very recently.
But yes, as a general rule of thumb I'd say that MoTR churches tend to get on better with the RCs than they do with full-on evangelical congregations.
This isn't necessarily a Free Church thing either, I know evangelical Anglicans who tend to remain aloof from ecumenical activity.
As to where any 'blame' attaches - whether on the MoTR side or the evangelical side when it comes to local tensions, it tends to be the case, in my experience, that it's a case of either side 'talking past' the other - although some MoTR outfits can be awkward and difficult in a way that belies their apparent emphasis on tolerance and respecting difference etc.
In a similar way to how many Quakers can be awkward and belligerent so and so's despite their emphasis on peace-maker and tolerance.
It's one of life's conundrums. In the same way, some people who sit under hell-fire and damnation sermons and blood and thunder week by week don't seem to carry those attitudes with them into the rest of their week ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
In my local area's Churches Together (which does include all the local churches - there aren't many!) I'd say the Pentecostals, RCs, more evangelical Anglicans (not Evangelical per se, just moreso than the other Anglicans who are still pretty MOTR), and Salvation Army soldiers are the most active. The local Pentecostal church is in a very conservative denomination (not Vineyard or NFI) but the lead pastor is a very nice man who is involved in Benedictine spirituality and is making some waves in a progressive direction on some Dead Horses within his denomination - there are more branches in the local big town which are decidedly more frosty with MOTR/liberal/Catholic churches.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Yes, I've known evangelicals who've participated in various ecumenical ventures. My point wasn't that all evangelicals are the same!
Gee D's post emphasised that Uniting Christians and RCs happily engaged in a joint witness this Easter. Nothing was said about the participation of anyone else. But it seems to be the case that when people (such as ExclamationMark above) on this website and elsewhere talk about denominational difficulties with ecumenicalism these days, they usually refer to problems between MOTR churches and certain evangelical groups - not between the MOTR churches and the RCC.
As to participation of anyone else, St Sanity is an Anglican church, so our Palm Sunday procession (not Easter) is one of 3 traditions; more if you count the 3 strands that combined in the Uniting Church, plus the traditions that the Uniting Church is building for itself. The Baptist church is member of the covenant and shares in the covenant's Lenten, Pentecost and Advent services - indeed, membership of the covenant introduced Advent to the local Baptists and it is becoming a part of their tradition. The Baptists have yet to join the Palm Sunday procession though.
I would not say that the formation of the Uniting Church contributed much to ecumenism here, but rather the reverse. That, plus economics.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I would not say that the formation of the Uniting Church contributed much to ecumenism here, but rather the reverse.
Interesting point - could you elucidate, please?
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
The formation of the Uniting Church removed 3 churches (or most of 2 plus all of 1*) from the field of ecumenical discussion. Those uniting then had to spend quite a lot of effort in their unification and could not contribute much out of that for a long time. Those that remained out of the new church have become more and more isolated. Does that help?
*All of the Congregational Church, nearly all of the Methodist, and much of the Presbyterian.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Pomona
A Pentecostal pastor turning his conservative denomination progressive? If it can be done without the whole thing morphing into well-meaning MOTR irrelevance after a few decades that'll be impressive.
I do think ecumenicalism is important today, particularly for ordinary churches in an challenging, secular environment. But it's hard not to see it as yet another step on the congregational or denominational route towards respectability and assimilation. And once that goal has been achieved, where else is there to go but down?
Of course, other outcomes are possible, depending on circumstances (ongoing Christian immigration, a very middle class surrounding suburb, a local legacy of high churchgoing rates, etc.)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The formation of the Uniting Church removed 3 churches (or most of 2 plus all of 1*) from the field of ecumenical discussion.... Does that help?
Yes, thanks. In Britain the URC initially saw itself as only the first step towards a pan-ecumenical "superchurch", but that never happened. What it has done is (a) make the URC more likely to enter into formal ecumenical partnerships than other denominations; (b) make them struggle to find their distinctive identity; and (c) occasionally make some of them a bit smug about their ecumenical credentials.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Pomona
A Pentecostal pastor turning his conservative denomination progressive? If it can be done without the whole thing morphing into well-meaning MOTR irrelevance after a few decades that'll be impressive.
I do think ecumenicalism is important today, particularly for ordinary churches in an challenging, secular environment. But it's hard not to see it as yet another step on the congregational or denominational route towards respectability and assimilation. And once that goal has been achieved, where else is there to go but down?
Of course, other outcomes are possible, depending on circumstances (ongoing Christian immigration, a very middle class surrounding suburb, a local legacy of high churchgoing rates, etc.)
Actually the denomination is likely to split over women leadership, by 'making waves' I meant 'making a fuss' I guess?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
A Pentecostal pastor turning his conservative denomination progressive?
Historically a lot of Pentecostal groups have been a lot more progressive on some issues than their Conservative counterparts in other denominations.
That said, my own feeling is that Pentecostalism as such is declining in the West - not for reasons of progressivism, but because the communities they were typically strong within are disappearing.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I'm aware that all Christian groups, including Pentecostals, tend to become more 'progressive' over time, if by that we mean they reduce at least some of the tensions between themselves and the wider society.
The more interesting question regarding Pentecostals, as I implied, is whether they can go down this route, and how far, without ending up with the very same problems as the MOTR churches before them. (Of course, secularisation is a huge challenge for all Christian groups - although for some of them it also presents an opportunity.)
Whether Pentecostalism is declining in the West is highly debatable. In the UK, there's clearly been a reduction in white working class Pentecostalism, but a rise in non-white Pentecostal immigrants.
In British terms Pentecostals now outnumber Methodists. By 2020 it's projected that the number of Pentecostals will have grown by 25%, and there'll be 541,954 Pentecostals to 176,160 Methodists in the UK (see p. 4). This will make the latter a more, not a less significant presence in the British Christian community.
Elsewhere in Europe I understand that the number of Pentecostals has always been very small, so any increase in one constituency has probably cancelled out the decline in another.
[ 04. June 2017, 15:15: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
'This will make the latter a more, not a less significant presence in the British Christian community.'
I obviously mean former. I.e. Pentecostals will become a very significant group in British Christianity. This is already becoming apparent. In the cities some of the mainstream churches, evangelical ecumenical networks and theological colleges are keen to create connections with majority black Pentecostal churches, and to recognise their leaders and scholars. This wasn't always the case.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm aware that all Christian groups, including Pentecostals, tend to become more 'progressive' over time
That is not what I was talking about at all, please read what I wrote. Historically there has been a progressive side to Pentecostalism, even when this went against the grain of the particular society they were in.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Perhaps it would be easier to understand what you're getting at if you gave some examples.
From my own perspective, I'm aware, for example, that many Pentecostal groups have had women pastors for quite some time. I'm also aware that the early Azusa Street movement incorporated a kind of equality among people of all races and classes.
I've also heard it said that black Pentecostalism is somewhat separate from fundamentalism for various reasons. African American Pentecostals don't have the same right wing focus on DH issues that many other American evangelicals do.
But perhaps you have something else in mind.
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