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Source: (consider it) Thread: A Future Israel
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
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I've been trying to imagine what a future Israel might look like and also what a liberated Palestine might look like. It could be quite a world wonder if the three great religions of the world were somehow able to live together, work together, enter politics together and establish a state together. Some may say that's the pipe dream that can never happen.

I think too of what a liberated Palestine might look like and the formation of a Palestinian state. Would Christians be welcome in it? Who would run it? Would it be sustainable and stable? How would the rest of the Middle East view it?

I feel I'm drifting towards the idealism of the first option, but of course that is one that would have to recognise the state as principally a religiously significant one. The fact is that such significance for the area is never going to disappear, so carving it up into smaller and smaller states isn't really going to solve the issues as far as I can see.

Could a liberated Palestine exist as a nation state? I really don't know. I don't know either if the state of Israel could be claimed by three different religions, but perhaps its worth a shot.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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mr cheesy
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I think an independent Palestine is a lost cause. And it seems many Palestinians agree, hence the many refugees currently braving the Med, moving to South America and elsewhere.

I think the hard reality is that Israel will take complete control over the whole of the area and will use increasingly draconian laws against "undesirables", including Israeli Arabs, Palestinians, residents of Jerusalem, Druze etc whilst using the building of roads, walls and housing units to divide and conquer.

I think in the end there will be a few million Palestinians holed up in Gaza slowly suffocating, and the vast majority of the West Bank basically cleansed of anyone who isn't prepared to agree to the whims of the Israeli extremists.

I think Arab states will be too unstable to offer any kind of support to Palestinians so the chances of them picking a fight with Israel are almost none, and Hamas in Gaza will effectively have their legs cut out from under them. Eventually most Palestinans who can will have simply left of their own accord.

To me, having seen what is happening on the ground, I think this is the inevitable endpoint.

As for Christians, I suspect these will always be welcomed to Jerusalem unless they're Arabs. I think it is very likely that Muslims will eventually be prevented from the Al Asqa and Temple Mount area and that there is nothing anyone will be able to do to stop the Jewish extremists from blowing up the mosque and re-establishing some kind of temple there.

Of course, if/when this happens, Jewish lives around the world will be under intense pressure and risk of violence, so likely increased numbers of Jewish migrants will flood to the area for protection.

Logically it would be madness, but the extremists don't seem to be interested in logic or in win-win scenarios. They're only interested in winning their own game with their own rules.

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arse

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Galilit
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Speaking as one who yesterday (along with a few thousand other women) held silent demonstrations at over 120 main road junctions throughout the State of Israel under the slogan "Left Centre Right we all demand [feminine plural] a political solution; Women Wage Peace" (in all the languages)...

It really doesn't matter what agreement is reached as long as we have peace; even a cold peace.
Despite that almost all the reaction of passing vehicles was positive (toots, thumbs up, waves, etc) it is not us who will draft or sign any agreement.
And you don't even live here so are even less involved it seems to me. As past-President Clinton realised "You can't want it more than they do".

However I can tell you that at an individual level (in hospital, the supermarket queue, in work-places) people get on well, and help one another while at the same time holding very different political views and even in private really hating The Other(s) and saying so freely in one's own social situations.

It's almost indescribable and sometimes my mind explodes with the cognitive dissonance of it all. I think we live in the moment here - we behave like human beings when it counts. The rest of the time ... we are each who we are and we live on other people's prayers for us.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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simontoad
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Keep trying Galilit. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

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Human

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Gamaliel
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It depends. The whole region is completely unstable.

Would the likes of ISIS try to infiltrate some kind of future Palestinian state? In which case the outlook would be bleak for other Muslims, Jews and Christians alike ...

It's a vicious circle. The more draconian the State of Israel becomes the more terrorism and kick-back ... The more terrorism and kick-back the more draconian the Israeli state becomes.

Also, you can't disaggregate the whole thing from geo-politics ... Western oil interests and so on ...

So I find it very hard to envisage a peaceful future for the region - and I know the BBC's veteran Middle East correspondent Jeremy Bowen is fairly pessimistic too ...

[Frown]

I take comfort though, from some of the things I read here about good-will 'on the ground' and a willingness on the part of people from all communities to work together for peace.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Anglican_Brat
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From my time in Palestine, I got the impression from the people I spoke with that there is a quiet resentment of the idea of the two-state solution as the utopian idea that the international community sought to impose as a way to "fix" the problem, with little consultation with the actual people who lived there.

Whatever future solution: single state or two state cannot be considered unless the real problem of Israeli occupation is addressed.

And that's the sticking point: Israel, especially its virulent right wing, refuses to accept that it is illegally occupying Palestinian land.

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Martin60
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What mr cheesy said. If terrorists - Jewish OR Arab - could blow up the Dome of the Rock, they would. The trouble is, they only have to get lucky once. So it will happen. I just hope I don't live to see it, which is a reasonable expectation in my case!

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Love wins

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Russ
Old salt
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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
at an individual level (in hospital, the supermarket queue, in work-places) people get on well, and help one another while at the same time holding very different political views and even in private really hating The Other(s) and saying so freely in one's own social situations.

I find this really profound.

You're saying, I think, that it's not the people they hate, it's the identity.

Palestinians who get on fine with their Jewish neighbours but hate Jewishness (and vice versa).

Maybe the same is true in other conflicts. Gays vs fundamentalists ? Left vs Right ?

It's an idea that offers hope. It re-frames the problem as one of somehow getting past the politics of identity.

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
the whims of the Israeli extremists.

"Whims".

Wow, just the wordsmith's mot juste to describe the longing of any Jew for some sort of secure right to exist when threatened by genocidal, neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic maniacs.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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No, we're talking about people who look over the border of their own country, see other peoples' lands and say "We should have that."

Tell me again what gives the Israelis the right to do that, and how you'd respond if someone did it to you.

[ 04. June 2017, 10:29: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
the whims of the Israeli extremists.

"Whims".

Wow, just the wordsmith's mot juste to describe the longing of any Jew for some sort of secure right to exist when threatened by genocidal, neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic maniacs.

Tuesday.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
"Whims".

Wow, just the wordsmith's mot juste to describe the longing of any Jew for some sort of secure right to exist when threatened by genocidal, neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic maniacs.

I think whim is exactly the right word because the systems of military control used in the West Bank are basically impossible to understand because they're not consistent, they're not subject to normal understanding of law, they're not fair, they're not capable of being interrogated by higher authorities etc and so on.

On a base level, I'm not sure that it even works in the way you've formulated the words. Pressurising and intimidating undesirable minorities in Israel is not giving the kind of safety and security that the hardline Jews think that they want.

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arse

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Russ
Old salt
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Yes it's paranoia even if there really are people out to get you...

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Galilit
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
It re-frames the problem as one of somehow getting past the politics of identity.

Jesus talked to people one at a time too.

And outsiders eg Matthew, Mary Magdalene, Zaccheus, the Samaritan Woman - to name but 4 without opening a Bible

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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stonespring
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Does anyone know much about the current status of Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, and elsewhere? How many of them live in camps (and what are the conditions in the camps) and how many live in the general population of their host countries? Are they allowed to work? Have any been allowed to become permanent residents or citizens of other Arab countries? How does the population of Palestinian refugees in other Arab countries compare with the population of Palestinians in Palestine? Aside from a right of return to Israel, which Israel opposes, what other policies have been suggested to provide a permanent home to Palestinian refugees?
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Does anyone know much about the current status of Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, and elsewhere? How many of them live in camps (and what are the conditions in the camps) and how many live in the general population of their host countries?

Are they allowed to work? Have any been allowed to become permanent residents or citizens of other Arab countries? How does the population of Palestinian refugees in other Arab countries compare with the population of Palestinians in Palestine? Aside from a right of return to Israel, which Israel opposes, what other policies have been suggested to provide a permanent home to Palestinian refugees?


There are millions of Palestinians outside of Israel/Palestine. The UNRWA is the UN agency which is set up to look after refugees (as opposed to those who have integrated into the general population) and they say there are 5 million eligible to use their services.

They split this up as 500,000 in Syria, 2 million in Lebanon, 500,000 in Lebanon plus others in camps in Gaza and the West Bank.

There are arguably a similar number of Palestinians outside of the country as in Israel/Palestine (depending on how this is counted).

The conditions vary. In Lebanon the refugees are prevented from integrating with the population, are not allowed to work in designated careers (eg law, medicine, engineering) and live in poor conditions surviving on the black market. In Syria the refugee camps have been the site of fierce fighting, such as Yarmouk in 2015.

Jordan is historically seen as the best place for many Palestinians and there are a large number who now live in the general population.

Conservative Israelis sometimes claim that Palestine should be declared in Jordan, given the mixing of the populations there. But then sometimes the most religious settlers claim that their land should extent both sides of the Jordan which would extent into the Hashemite kingdom.

I suspect that the truth is that there is some inbuilt pressure within the Arab countries to keep Palestinians as unsettled refugees to continue pressure on Israel. But then Palestinians are a resilient people and have obviously shown over the last 80 years that they're prepared to sit and wait in the refugee camps until someone eventually gives them their rights - even if that takes generations to come about.

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arse

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PaulTH*
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When two distinct populations lay claim to the same piece of land, there is a problem which is basically insoluble. Going back to pre WW2, when Jews were moving in large numbers to Palestine, the mandate allowed them to settle all lands west of the Jordan, so in the minds of many hard line Zionists, there would be nothing illegal about their settlements. But events moved on, and in 1947, the United Nations proposed a two state solution which also internationalised Jerusalem in recognition of its status as a Holy City to three religions. At the time, the Jews accepted the solution, but the Arabs and all the neighbouring Arab states rejected it, and launched a war on Israel during which neighbouring Jordan annexed the proposed Palestinian state. During the 1966 war, when Israel was attacked on all sides by its neighbours, it created a buffer zone on the West Bank, the Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsular for self-protection. In 1981, having established a secure peace with Egypt, it handed back the occupied Egyptian territory.

Most of what Israel has done since its inception has been to protect itself from hostile neighbours whose intention is to push it into the sea. It has over reacted and disproportionally reacted many times, but all it wants is to live within secure borders. However much blood is spilt, however many initiatives and peace processes are set up, only one possible solution exists to this almost impossible conflict, and it would be based on the proposed 1947 agreement. Israel would have to withdraw to its pre 1966 borders, in exchange for a copper bottomed and UN enforced recognition by its neighbours of its right to exist. Jerusalem would need to be made an international city and completely depoliticised. Not much to ask! This is why it's close to impossible. Many sacred cows on both sides would need t be slaughtered, but nobody has ever proposed another resolution which comes close to this as the only fair way to deal with everyone.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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stonespring
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Eventually most Palestinians who can will have simply left of their own accord.

Where would they go?
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simontoad
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Australia has a sizeable Arab population from the levant. People have been coming here in significant numbers since the 1950's. It's much harder to get in now if you don't have the money for a special visa, and I expect it will remain that way until the political situation cools off vis-a-vis our resurgent racism.

I think someone mentioned the possibility of Jews desecrating the Temple Mount up thread. That's irresponsible, especially given that the second intifada began when Ariel Sharon made a visit to the Temple Mount. That you would say such a thing calls into question your commitment to peace.

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Human

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Is it not correct that Trans-Jordan was composed of what is now Israel, the Palestine territory and Jordan? Is it too simple to consider that Jordan is actually the Palestinian state? It did occupy the West Bank at one point also.

These country creations always victimize someone. What is now Poland was further east and south, and some of its territory is now Ukrainian, Belorussian, and Russian. It has some German territory now. Why does Russia get to keep Crimea? Why does America get to keep Hawaii and Puerto Rico? Why does Canada get to keep Nunavut? Isn't the way to keep territory to populate it with your people and overwhelm whatever population was there, exterminating or assimilating them? Or to co-opt them into your country over time?

Why should Israel/Palestine be different than these? I suppose the differences are the WW2 extermination of most of the European Jews, the non-possibility of assimilating Muslims, and the view of the Jews as the chosen people with all the historical and biblical baggage involved. (Though I am struck with the limited knowledge that I have of indigenous peoples in Canada: they all refer to themselves in ways that indicate that they are specially chosen by the Creator. Aren't we all?)

So after all of this, moderately formed analysis, I'd say the future Israel is probably it's official boundaries plus much of the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and probably not Gaza. The Palestinians will continue to live on dependent areas which are like reserves or reservations for indigenous North Americans, and there will be ongoing and further efforts to encourage them to immigrate, to extinguish revanchism and irredentism, and to force acceptance that this is simply the way it is.

I think it would take a full on conflict, probably via a proxy war of the major world powers, who probably care more about strategic and economic interests than anything else. Though the Americans are too busy arming Saudis to fight for them in Yemen against Russian proxies, and also against each other and with each other in Syria with different other proxies, to bother just now. Which makes me wonder if the goal for the rest of the century is to keep the middle east completely unstable, so as to manufacture consent the rich/poor divide in the home countries, to encourage consumption of military hardware, and to help defocus from domestic problems.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:


I think someone mentioned the possibility of Jews desecrating the Temple Mount up thread. That's irresponsible, especially given that the second intifada began when Ariel Sharon made a visit to the Temple Mount. That you would say such a thing calls into question your commitment to peace.

I said that I thought it was inevitable not desirable.

In an asymmetric conflict, the strongest party will overcome in the end. If the Israel military were weaker, the whole population of Jews in the region would be in danger.

I can't see any scenario in the long-term where the two populations live in neighbour states with full lives. The problems are too entrenched.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Where would they go?

AFAIU the population referred to in Australia are Lebanese, a subtly different cultural group to the Palestinians. FWIW, the Palestinians have told me that they see themselves as closest to Jordanians and Iraqis.

But it is a decent question as to where millions of Palestinians are supposed to go. I don't have an answer to that. If Iraq ever stabilised, I think some may go there. Many are currently in or en route to Europe. There are fairly large sized populations in South America. The WP page has some numbers in various countries, although I'm not sure how accurate it is.

My general feeling is that the population is likely to grow in some South American countries with low populations, and that there may be some pressure to move the Palestinians as far from the region as possible. But of course there will be knock-on problems and issues wherever they go.

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arse

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Late Quartet

Irredeemably speciesist?
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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Jesus talked to people one at a time too.

And outsiders eg Matthew, Mary Magdalene, Zaccheus, the Samaritan Woman - to name but 4 without opening a Bible

I am inspired by Galilit's commitment to dialogue and changing attitude one person, one road junction at a time; thank you for your specific and ongoing commitment to peace in your region.

As to the original question; as much as I would welcome a fully functioning and independent Palestinian state, I have stopped hoping for that.

I do hope and pray for peace, more peace, one person at a time.

As for my own dream-political-solution: it'd be—rather than re-drawing the 1967 lines—a truly fair and just, equal non-religious broader state of Israel stretching from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River including all of the West Bank and also Gaza. It would contain fair and free elections for all with an entirely different kind of collections of representatives in parliament. Something akin and yet different to both the transformation of South African life and the reunification of Germany.

[ 06. June 2017, 10:27: Message edited by: Late Quartet ]

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Late Quartet is cycling closer to Route 6 than Route 66 these days.

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simontoad
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# 18096

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:


I think someone mentioned the possibility of Jews desecrating the Temple Mount up thread. That's irresponsible, especially given that the second intifada began when Ariel Sharon made a visit to the Temple Mount. That you would say such a thing calls into question your commitment to peace.

I said that I thought it was inevitable not desirable.

In an asymmetric conflict, the strongest party will overcome in the end. If the Israel military were weaker, the whole population of Jews in the region would be in danger.

I can't see any scenario in the long-term where the two populations live in neighbour states with full lives. The problems are too entrenched.

And in doing so, you showed yourself to be both irresponsible and not interested in peace.

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Human

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
in doing so, you showed yourself to be both irresponsible and not interested in peace. [/QB]

Yeah obviously. Clearly giving a view having been there and talked to many Palestinians and also listening to the noises coming out of Israel makes me irresponsible. I suggest you take this thought to hell so I can tell you how much I appreciate your comment.
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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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Posted by Simontoad:
quote:

And in doing so, you showed yourself to be both irresponsible and not interested in peace.

I've no boat in this particular race but I have been trying to make sense of your statement. Do you mean that even the idea of this should not be mentioned, or that it somehow reveals an entrenched thinking on some aspect? Or something else?

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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simontoad
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# 18096

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quote:
I think it is very likely that Muslims will eventually be prevented from the Al Asqa and Temple Mount area and that there is nothing anyone will be able to do to stop the Jewish extremists from blowing up the mosque and re-establishing some kind of temple there.
This is what's irresponsible. It's especially irresponsible if you are familiar with the region and have talked to Palestinians, because you should know that this plays into the fears of the Palestinians and makes it less likely that an environment conducive to peace will come into being. It's just an inflammatory and unnecessary thing to say, and must call into question Mr Cheesy's desire for peace.

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Human

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Martin60
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Bollocks. They WILL get lucky. It is even in the interests of jihadists to do it themselves.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
This is what's irresponsible. It's especially irresponsible if you are familiar with the region and have talked to Palestinians, because you should know that this plays into the fears of the Palestinians and makes it less likely that an environment conducive to peace will come into being. It's just an inflammatory and unnecessary thing to say, and must call into question Mr Cheesy's desire for peace.

You need to talk to:

Israeli Minister Uri Ariel who has called for the building of the temple and that the mosque will be destroyed

Israeli Education Minister Naftali Bennett who rejects any notion of a Palestinian state and instead believes in a Greater Israel

Israeli Defence Minister Avigdor Liberman who has called for the mass expulsion of Arab citizens of Israel

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice who apparently was discussing the mass export of Palestinian refugees to South America

If these ideas are irresponsible, these are the people you need to be talking about. Not some guy on a website.

My views are in no sense irresponsible or inflammatory. They are views which are widely held by the headbangers in Israel and which I think will eventually come to fruition.

If you don't like it, tough.

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arse

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simontoad
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# 18096

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Do you think the people you listed want peace? Do you want to be their equivalent on the side of the Palestinians? Peace will be the work of people who are prepared to refrain from promulgating inflammatory material.

To clarify, I haven't made a study of your views Mr Cheesy. I am limiting my criticism to what you said about Jews destroying the al-aqsa mosque.

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Galilit
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# 16470

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quote:
Originally posted by Late Quartet:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Jesus talked to people one at a time too.

And outsiders eg Matthew, Mary Magdalene, Zaccheus, the Samaritan Woman - to name but 4 without opening a Bible

I am inspired by Galilit's commitment to dialogue and changing attitude one person, one road junction at a time; thank you for your specific and ongoing commitment to peace in your region.


I am not under any illusion that I am changing anything.

I am a Christian living and interacting with who (what) is in front of me at any given moment. Like greeting the supermarket cashier "Shalom. Ramadan kareem" at our weekly shopping trip. Or, responding to a driver passing our demonstration taunting us "Bibi! Bibi!", with "Yes, you're right, Bibi. HE is the one who is going to have to sign any agreement.[Bibi being the local nickname of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu]

The situation as I described it in my first post is so clear to me: people can and do behave like human beings to one another (A.N. Other), then go home and say what they really think. Time after time. And it's not getting better or easier for any of us any time soon.

Any Future Israel-Palestine will be after many more diplomats, politicians and Jobsworths have had a lot more so-called Peace Talks in fancy hotels as far away from here as possible anpaid for by someone else. More importantly, after many more people have been killed, injured and psychologically stressed.

In the meantime we are all living on your prayers here...the prayers behind all your suggested solutions

[ 07. June 2017, 03:54: Message edited by: Galilit ]

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Do you think the people you listed want peace? Do you want to be their equivalent on the side of the Palestinians? Peace will be the work of people who are prepared to refrain from promulgating inflammatory material.

I've no idea what you're talking about. I happen to believe that the voices talking about these things within the Israeli government are credible and represent a significant vein of opinion within Israeli society.

Given the power that the Israeli government has, I think it is albut inevitable that these desires will be realised.

That's a statement of my deepest fears, not inflammatory and not in any sense against peace. If there was a way forward for peace I'd be all for it as a pacifist - I just can't see that there is when the occupier has all the power and there are persistent voices saying this kind of thing from within government.

quote:
To clarify, I haven't made a study of your views Mr Cheesy. I am limiting my criticism to what you said about Jews destroying the al-aqsa mosque.
I think you're talking utter shite.

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arse

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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Posted by Simontoad:
quote:

....on the side of......

Would this not be part of the root of the problem? That's not to say there isn't injustice that needs to be addressed, but surely getting two opposing parties talking without repeatedly descending into who is most right is the only place to start?

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Do you think the people you listed want peace? Do you want to be their equivalent on the side of the Palestinians? Peace will be the work of people who are prepared to refrain from promulgating inflammatory material.

To clarify, I haven't made a study of your views Mr Cheesy. I am limiting my criticism to what you said about Jews destroying the al-aqsa mosque.

I am deeply familiar with mr cheesy's views, they have modified my own despite me.

Regardless, your criticism about the inevitable destruction of the Al-Aqsa Mosque (most likely) by Jews is irrational.

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Love wins

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simontoad
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# 18096

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Simontoad:
quote:

....on the side of......

Would this not be part of the root of the problem? That's not to say there isn't injustice that needs to be addressed, but surely getting two opposing parties talking without repeatedly descending into who is most right is the only place to start?
Absolutely.

I'm glad that you desire peace, Mr Cheesy. I find it hard to reconcile that with what you said about the Temple Mount, but I will let that pass and move on. In future, I hope you will not be so inflammatory.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Can you stop calling my words inflammatory please? The only person who seems to think my vocalisation of the likelihood of extreme beliefs becoming a reality in Jerusalem is somehow the Thing That Must Not Be Spoken is you.

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arse

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simontoad
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# 18096

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But what you said was inflammatory. You can't get around that.

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Human

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
But what you said was inflammatory. You can't get around that.

I think it would only be inflammatory if he was actively calling for it - which afaict he wasn't. Or if it was completely beyond the realms of possibly - afaict it isn't entirely.
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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
But what you said was inflammatory. You can't get around that.

Only to you in some untransferable way.

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Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Late Quartet

Irredeemably speciesist?
# 1207

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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I am not under any illusion that I am changing anything.

I am a Christian living and interacting with who (what) is in front of me at any given moment. Like greeting the supermarket cashier "Shalom. Ramadan kareem" at our weekly shopping trip. Or, responding to a driver passing our demonstration taunting us "Bibi! Bibi!", with "Yes, you're right, Bibi. HE is the one who is going to have to sign any agreement.[Bibi being the local nickname of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu]

The situation as I described it in my first post is so clear to me: people can and do behave like human beings to one another (A.N. Other), then go home and say what they really think. Time after time. And it's not getting better or easier for any of us any time soon.

Any Future Israel-Palestine will be after many more diplomats, politicians and Jobsworths have had a lot more so-called Peace Talks in fancy hotels as far away from here as possible anpaid for by someone else. More importantly, after many more people have been killed, injured and psychologically stressed.

In the meantime we are all living on your prayers here...the prayers behind all your suggested solutions

Yes, I hear in your response that where I read what you narrate as you changing attitude, you wouldn't describe it that way: just "living and interacting"? Right? I get that you do not wish to make any high or lofty claims for bringing change.

Living on prayers: be assured of some of my very imperfect ones!

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I think it would only be inflammatory if he was actively calling for it - which afaict he wasn't. Or if it was completely beyond the realms of possibly - afaict it isn't entirely.

Talk of Israel destroying the Al-Aqsa mosque is not so much inflammatory, as sensationalist and fatuous.

It isn't going to happen.

It is a fantasy of oddballs and outliers.

And even if Israel did destroy it, it is still only a building.

In the context of the ME this is a non-issue compared with the destruction of the Jewish people.

That's not going to happen either, but a significant proportion of Israel's enemies are committed to it, and are capable of wreaking continuing damage and tragedy in their pursuit of it.

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Martin60
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# 368

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That's what happens when you're invaded.

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Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
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# 18096

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nice one, pacifist.

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Human

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Martin60
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# 368

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Can you join up the dots please?

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Love wins

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Galilit
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# 16470

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quote:
Originally posted by Late Quartet:
Yes, I hear in your response that where I read what you narrate as you changing attitude, you wouldn't describe it that way: just "living and interacting"? Right? I get that you do not wish to make any high or lofty claims for bringing change.

Living on prayers: be assured of some of my very imperfect ones!

Well, in the face of all the armchair experts all over the world who are presenting accusations, arguments and solutions left, right, and centre ... I'd be pretty arrogant, wouldn't I?

I mean, I just live here.
I simply want to tell you all something about that.

I also want to reiterate former-President Clinton's comment "You can't want it more than they do".
What that means is this: it will be our politicians and decision makers who will be signing Peace Agreements. And I (and the other 8 million or so) who will live in any Future Israel-Palestine.
Not Clinton, not any other politician, not any activist however well-informed, highly motivated and vocal will actually make their home here.

To me all the intense, loud, and angry comments (as well as the magnifying-glass attention some people devote to our Situation from afar) are no more and no less than prayers for us and our Situation.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Galilit
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# 16470

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Which is perhaps why things are not even worse than they are (or worse than they look to you lot in The Rest of the World)

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Martin60
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# 368

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Galilit, with apologies from my armchair [Angel] [Votive] [Axe murder]

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Love wins

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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me too. I can get dogged and grumpy when I haven't got a cold, and now I have one. [Votive]

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Human

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Late Quartet

Irredeemably speciesist?
# 1207

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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
To me all the intense, loud, and angry comments (as well as the magnifying-glass attention some people devote to our Situation from afar) are no more and no less than prayers for us and our Situation.

I appreciate your paralleling of political discourse and intercession; not elevating or demoting either one or the other.

It seems like an important way of viewing the context you, personally, live in, but also a way of understanding each of our contexts, our political thoughts about our situations and our prayers for all sorts of things. Thanks.

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Late Quartet is cycling closer to Route 6 than Route 66 these days.

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