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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Warnings & scaremongering
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I'm an engineer. I'm alarmed to see in Eutychus's links that a number of blocks around the world have gone up like this already. In those links there's also discussion that 'Class O' - the highest class of fire retardant in UK regs - can. in some circumstances, be equivalent to properties of 'normal combustibility' in (eg) DIN standards.
It alarms me that we've known for 30+ years that polystyrene tiles on our home ceilings were a really bad 70s innovation that we should get rid of - but that there are circumstances where we use it (and other plastics which burn) today for thermal insulation on the outside of *tall* buildings.
Sprinklers appear to have saved lives abroad by slowing what happens when the inferno outside your window melts the UPVC, your window falls out, and the fire starts to come in and consume your flat.
But that cladding turns the tower into more than a chimney, it turns it into a f*cking *burner* - the updraught in the condensation gap between the fascia and the insulation accelerates the combustion of the fuel (the whole thing) like the forced-air oil-burner I made for a crucible furnace. Short of blowing it with pure oxygen, it would be hard to get it to burn any faster. And you're living inside it.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Monbiot is spot on. And aluminium burns worse than hellfire in the right conditions, in the presence of rust for example. Your description, mark, is all too convincing.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
In the presence of oxygen (especially forced draught) and a source of heat, the only things which don't burn are Things Which Don't Burn. Like concrete, or bricks, or sand. Wet phone directories will burn with enough heat and air.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Also: we're all blaming the cladding, probably rightly. What we may be forgetting is that even aluminium has a fairly low burning temperature, although much higher than the plastic.
Those of a certain age will remember the Falklands War, and how warships made with lightweight aluminium superstructure fared against air-to-sea missiles.
The answer being "poorly".
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
As a blast furnace operator, when all else failed, I used a thermic lance; burning steel. To evaporate concrete.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Building Regs are a devolved matter, that's why they are different in Wales.
I suspect that the models used for standard fires will be found wanting. The advice to stay in your flat is probably right for most fires - each compartment should (I think, I'm not an expert and will gladly bow to greater knowledge) be good for 90 minutes in residential property.
M.
[ 16. June 2017, 05:33: Message edited by: M. ]
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The standard fire advice is a bit more complicated. When planning fire safety for living accommodation:
- plan two safe exits so you can avoid fires and escape;
- agree a meeting point away from the building
- decide on a safe zone for if you are stuck and cannot leave, that room should have a phone and be barricaded against the fire
I can't find the links now, and I need to stop playing, but it's part of the PSE personal safety unit I teach / and have put together for teaching.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Ummm - PSE meaning please? Nothing quickly shows up beyond such things as Philippine Stock Exchange.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
<tangent>Personal Social Education, often called PSHE or PSHCEE - personal, social, health, careers, employment education. That qualification is specifically the AQA 5800 PSE Award or Certificate (AQA is an exam board, and whether students achieve an award or a certificate depends on the number of units completed)</tangent>
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{From a cross-Pond perspective. YMMV.}
--Sprinklers: They can be retro-fitted into a building. I've lived in this building for a long time, and I think it's at least 100 years old. Sprinklers weren't put in until the 1990s, after the 1989 earthquake. There was a lot of work to improve building safety all over town. The walls were reinforced, too.
--Staircase: Building a very tall apartment house with only one staircase? I haven't heard, but I'm guessing there were no fire escapes attached to the outside of the building?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Sprinklers: They can be retro-fitted into a building. I've lived in this building for a long time, and I think it's at least 100 years old. Sprinklers weren't put in until the 1990s, after the 1989 earthquake. There was a lot of work to improve building safety all over town. The walls were reinforced, too.
I think the issue here is that there was a question about water pressure and also about the effectiveness of sprinklers. There was a belief that any fire would be localised and so if people stayed inside their flats they wouldn't be affected and that building-wide sprinklers wouldn't make a lot of difference.
This could be wrong, but this is what I've understood from the various reports. I don't know how or why this might be different advice to that given in other countries.
quote:
--Staircase: Building a very tall apartment house with only one staircase? I haven't heard, but I'm guessing there were no fire escapes attached to the outside of the building?
As I understand the diagrams I've seen, there was only one staircase to one side of the building.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Monbiot is spot on. And aluminium burns worse than hellfire in the right conditions, in the presence of rust for example. Your description, mark, is all too convincing.
Even the Twin Towers didn't go up like that Tower Block despite having tons of aviation fuel igniting. This was just a kitchen fire from a faulty appliance FFS.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Monbiot is spot on. And aluminium burns worse than hellfire in the right conditions, in the presence of rust for example. Your description, mark, is all too convincing.
Even the Twin Towers didn't go up like that Tower Block despite having tons of aviation fuel igniting. This was just a kitchen fire from a faulty appliance FFS.
Sprinklers would have put out the fridge fire before it could spread.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
As I understand it there are two philosophies in fire protection, active and passive protection.
Active systems can also fail or be wrongly triggered, so they have their disadvantages.
The UK's philosophy is passive protection, i.e. the building is designed to withstand and contain a fire. In theory an apartment fire should be contained inside the apartment.
The primary cause of the rapid spread of this fire appears to be the use of core insulation in the outer cladding which, as has been stated upthread, inexplicably seems to have received a better fire rating in the UK than in many other EU countries, despite being of a markedly different composition to alternative products by the same manufacturer.
It could not have been used in, say, Croatia, on a building this tall.
It looks as though inadequate or faulty alarm systems and blocked escape routes made things worse.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
<tangent>Personal Social Education, often called PSHE or PSHCEE - personal, social, health, careers, employment education. That qualification is specifically the AQA 5800 PSE Award or Certificate (AQA is an exam board, and whether students achieve an award or a certificate depends on the number of units completed)</tangent>
Thanks.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Exploding fridges can be pretty spectacular and electrical fires move FAST (like a quarter of the speed of light) in to the wall, behind reach of the sprinkler: this fire went from internal to external in a flash. Apparently, anecdotally, no one has died in a fire where (one-at-a-time heat activated) sprinklers were activated (however I've seen one figure of 65% reduction), but I wouldn't be surprised that that would break down in a situation like this where inflammable polyethylene lined cladding, polystyrene insulation and UPVC with nylon window frames are involved. All of that has GOT to stop. One can imagine a situation where rooms are soused by sprinklers but the burning cladding still takes the windows out and fills rooms with hot toxic smoke. Eventually the water will run out and as mark said, wet telephone directories burn.
How about ensuring external layers are irrigated too?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I'd be content with a sprinkler system buying the occupants enough time (and enough clear air) to evacuate the building.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Eutychus, that's interesting, because presumably both active and passive systems are allowed by the Eurocodes if both systems are used? I admit my understanding of the Eurocodes is a bit hazy.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
mr cheesy--
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
--Staircase: Building a very tall apartment house with only one staircase? I haven't heard, but I'm guessing there were no fire escapes attached to the outside of the building?
As I understand the diagrams I've seen, there was only one staircase to one side of the building.
Hmmm...the news reports I've heard (generally on NPR, and possibly PBS, and possibly ABC's "World News Now") have repeatedly spoken of one staircase *for the entire building*. IIRC, this included British reporters, and various people questioned in Britain.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'd be content with a sprinkler system buying the occupants enough time (and enough clear air) to evacuate the building.
Indeed. The cladding may well have been the accelerant that turned a one-flat fire into a towering inferno, but with a decent sprinkler system in place and operational the residents should still have had plenty of time to get down the stairwell and out before the fire melted its way through the windows into their flats.
My evidence for this claim is the other fires of this nature where that is exactly what happened. Identical cladding, identical buildings, identical damage, no deaths. The cladding may be the reason why the building went up like kindling, but it's not the reason so many people died.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mr cheesy--
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
--Staircase: Building a very tall apartment house with only one staircase? I haven't heard, but I'm guessing there were no fire escapes attached to the outside of the building?
As I understand the diagrams I've seen, there was only one staircase to one side of the building.
Hmmm...the news reports I've heard (generally on NPR, and possibly PBS, and possibly ABC's "World News Now") have repeatedly spoken of one staircase *for the entire building*. IIRC, this included British reporters, and various people questioned in Britain.
FWIW.
That's what Mr C said...
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Hmmm...the news reports I've heard (generally on NPR, and possibly PBS, and possibly ABC's "World News Now") have repeatedly spoken of one staircase *for the entire building*. IIRC, this included British reporters, and various people questioned in Britain.
FWIW.
Yes. There is a single staircase off-set to one side. Which is unfortunate given the way that the fire spread. I don't know if it would have been safer if the staircase had been centrally positioned, but it feels like it might have been.
Which is to say that I don't think there were other fire escapes than the main staircase.
[ 16. June 2017, 10:59: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
rolyn--
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Even the Twin Towers didn't go up like that Tower Block despite having tons of aviation fuel igniting. This was just a kitchen fire from a faulty appliance FFS.
Actually, when I first saw film of the London apartment building on fire, I immediately thought of the Twin Towers--from the look. Some early news reports said the London building might collapse--which the Twin Towers actually did, IIRC.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
betjemaniac and mr cheesy--
Sorry, it sounded to me like mr cheesy might have meant one staircase on each side of the building.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yes. There is a single staircase off-set to one side.
Not much to one side, though.
Grenfell Tower floor plan (taken from the BBC)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yes. There is a single staircase off-set to one side.
Not much to one side, though.
Grenfell Tower floor plan (taken from the BBC)
That's interesting and wasn't the impression I got from looking at diagrams and hearing an interview with someone who was asked specifically about this and said the staircase was to one side.
According to the diagram above, the stairs were more-or-less central.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I think there is something more to be said about the state of civil society and the press in the wake of this tragedy. Without repeating what I've already said, there is still a very weird attitude around. The council still seems to be doing the absolute minimum possible to give assistance to victims and the press seems to be conspiring to downplay the seriousness of this incident.
Lily Allen - of all people - said yesterday that she believed there were more than 150 victims based on conversations with families. And yet the official death toll is still around 30.*
This morning the BBC did an unofficial estimate of victims being in the 70s. I still frankly can't understand why it is so hard for someone to get the names from families and publish them - surely this would assist with finding lost people in hospitals or elsewhere.
Yes, I suppose there is a risk that someone is named as missing who isn't. But that seems inconsequential compared to the potential benefits of finding someone alive who had been misplaced.
The other possibility, I suppose, is that there were a large number of people in the block who were - for whatever reason - off the radar. Which is a horrible thought.
* and apparently a significant number of those were bodies found outside the building.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I can't agree with you that the Press are keeping quiet on this. However I certainly do agree that the Council and the Management Company have been keeping very low, possibly because they don't want to say anything that could be construed as an admission of liability.
As far as the victims are concerned, I think it's normal practice only to formally announce the number of known dead. Certainly at least one newspaper this morning had banner headlines suggesting a toll of 100+, which is sadly likely. The BBC are now saying that 76 are "missing" at least.
Sadly I do think that a lot of folk will be off the radar, partly because of Eid which means that Muslim families may have relatives staying with them (or may have gone away themselves). Equally I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover sofa-surfing and illegal sub-letting going on. This isn't to condemn, simply to point out the actuality. It may well be too that there are visitors to Britain whose death will only be noticed when they fail to make contact or return home. This isn't like an air crash where there are passenger lists.
One more thought: if this had happened a week or two ago, it would have cost May the election.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It'll cost her the next one. But I don't think she'll be around to face it.
We'll see, I'm hopeful - again.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Perhaps it's because I'm now living in South Wales, but I am now starting to make connections with the Aberfan disaster. Why? Because there was a known problem which was treated far too lightly, because local residents had made complaints to officialdom about safety which had fallen on deaf ears, most of all because innocent (and largely poor) lives were horrifyingly lost in a place which spoke of safety. I think that Grenfell Tower could leave the same sort of mark on our national psyche (and, hopefully, on Government and Health & Safety).
[ 16. June 2017, 13:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Perhaps it's because I'm now living in South Wales, but I am now starting to make connections with the Aberfan disaster. Why? Because there was a known problem which was treated far too lightly, because local residents had made complaints to officialdom about safety which had fallen on deaf ears, most of all because innocent (and largely poor) lives were horrifyingly lost in a place which spoke of safety. I think that Grenfell Tower could leave the same sort of mark on our national psyche (and, hopefully, on Government and Health & Safety).
Aberfan was rubbed in though by the appalling actions of the NCB in the aftermath (in particular its appropriation of and use of a large amount of the disaster relief money for a clean-up it was liable for rather than getting it to the survivors...). Penlee nearly went the same way but the outcry in the press meant that the families got the money.
I think you're right that this ought to be a watershed moment, whether it will be or not is another matter. It does seem to me though that it's how the weeks and months after such an event are handled as much as the event itself which affects how it feels to the national consciousness.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
One staircase says it all. Are there no enforceable building codes in the UK? This building would not be used unless a second staircase was installed. And smoke detectors. Both wired in and battery. And retrofitting is required. All new construction and renos also requires sprinklers for a building of this size. No such rules there?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I've heard a rumour that a D notice has been applied to the known number of deaths at Grenfell Towers.
I've enquired politely with the Home Office to see if this is true, but I'm not holding my breath for an answer.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Apparently not.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It'll cost her the next one. But I don't think she'll be around to face it.
Just seen Andrea Leadsom making a game attempt to stick up for the PM on the site with some of the locals giving her a hard time about it.
My second thought was 'good for her'. My first, unworthy, thought was 'on manoeuvres are we?' Ms Leadsom reminds me of the Austrian Emperor Ferdinand II. Ferdinand had learning difficulties and one of his few memorable comments was "I am the Emperor and I will have dumplings. During the 1848 revolution he was removed to make way for Franz Josef. After the Austro-Prussian he uttered another memorable remark. "Even I could have done better than that." Ms Leadsom would not be human if the same sentiment had not occurred to her at some point over the last week.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
As far as the victims are concerned, I think it's normal practice only to formally announce the number of known dead.
Correct. The official figure is the number of confirmed deaths, which is why virtually every piece of reporting has contained the line "the figure is expected to rise".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Lots of people on social media calling this May's Hurricane Katrina. I think that's very apt. She surely cannot survive this. Also, this all is highly indicative of why Kensington turned red.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Are there no enforceable building codes in the UK?
Yes there are, but that doesn't mean they're the same as in other countries. And new codes generally don't apply to buildings built before the codes became law.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
After the Austro-Prussian he uttered another memorable remark. "Even I could have done better than that." Ms Leadsom would not be human if the same sentiment had not occurred to her at some point over the last week.
John Crace ( (here) made a similar comment yesterday.
quote:
“What about resources?” said Labour MP Clive Efford. “We need cash now,” others joined in.
At which point Sharma broke ranks and voted with his heart rather than his head. Too bad if he got a bollocking for making uncosted promises that hadn’t been signed off. Someone in the Tory party had to show some leadership, and it might as well be him.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Correct. The official figure is the number of confirmed deaths, which is why virtually every piece of reporting has contained the line "the figure is expected to rise".
Right, and obviously every body needs official confirmation.
But this has nothing to do with a lack of information about those who are missing.
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arse
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Are there no enforceable building codes in the UK?
Firstly, the present government has been largely hostile to passing or implementing health and safety regulations.
Secondly, austerity means that local council resources to ensure compliance have been overstretched. See this article by one of the people responsible in the Guardian.
Thirdly, legal aid has been cut so residents can't sue on their own behalf.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
She surely cannot survive this.
People are calling this "May's Katrina", while failing to realise that Bush survived Katrina and saw out a double term as President.
How it affects May's political future will depend on how closely she is tied to the various decisions that led to it. Simply being PM when a tragedy occurs shouldn't be enough to lose your job, but being directly responsible for any lax building codes and/or cost cutting that led to such a loss of life might.
What's more likely is that Labour will be able to use this disaster to tear the Tories a new one over their cuts to emergency services and the NHS. If they're cunning enough they can also turn the public discussion towards the question of why it's so hard to rehouse the survivors when so many expensive properties are sitting empty within a few miles. Compared to those issues, quibbles about building regulations that very few people were even aware of seem fairly small beer.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
One staircase says it all. Are there no enforceable building codes in the UK? This building would not be used unless a second staircase was installed. And smoke detectors. Both wired in and battery. And retrofitting is required. All new construction and renos also requires sprinklers for a building of this size. No such rules there?
I once lived in a (seven-story) building with a single staircase in the UK. In order to meet building regulations, the single staircase core had automatically closing doors, an overpressure of air in the staircase core, and nothing flammable in that core. This made the staircase a safe, smoke-free exit in the case of a fire. Without this, regulations would have required a second exit (staircase down the outside of the building would have been the usual way of doing that).
That was a new build about 20 years ago.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Are there no enforceable building codes in the UK?
Yes there are, but that doesn't mean they're the same as in other countries. And new codes generally don't apply to buildings built before the codes became law.
And this cladding met all regulations old and new. Unless shoddy workmanship or sharp practice was to blame, I don't think one can point the finger at either the contractors or the company overseeing the refurbishment. Thinking of the experiences in Paris, Melbourne and Dubai, one might want to point it at the Council who accepted the use of flammable material, but again they would say, "But it conformed to the regs." which they would have every right to assume were fit for purpose.
What I think is much more culpable is the decision not to fit sprinklers. One would have thought that a major refurbishment should have been regarded in law as equivalent to a new-build, where sprinklers would have been mandatory. Apparently the cost would only have been £200k added onto a total of more than £8m.
There is also Government itself which has been told repeatedly by its own MPs that the Regulations needed updating. What I feel is so sad is how the residents must have rejoiced when they heard of the "improvements" that were going to be made to the building. But it was in fact much safer in its old tatty guise.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But this has nothing to do with a lack of information about those who are missing.
True - but (as you yourself suggested) there may be people who we don't even know are missing.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
True - but (as you yourself suggested) there may be people who we don't even know are missing.
Do you not think the media downplayed the extent of this disaster - by talking about a handful of known deaths rather than an unknown, but large, number of the missing? Even saying that there were 70+ missing and listing the names of people that families were looking for before now would have shown how serious this was.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
There's been wall-to-wall coverage of this event on the TV. Newspapers have run front pages with big pictures of the tower block in flames. I'm not sure how this could be described as 'down-played'.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
They did that a number of years ago when there was a train crash and the wreck burnt out (near Paddington?) - talking of hundreds dead, and bodies burnt beyond recovery. Eventually, there turned out to be a relatively small number of deaths, with the abandoned cars at railway stations up and down the line (that were being used to make estimates of the numbers of missing people) mostly belonging to people unable to quickly get back to them because the railway line was closed. Hence, I suspect, the caution. That, and the one person being reported missing 46 times.
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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