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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Warnings & scaremongering
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
There's been wall-to-wall coverage of this event on the TV. Newspapers have run front pages with big pictures of the tower block in flames. I'm not sure how this could be described as 'down-played'.
The poor people there believe that nobody gives a shit about them and that the media is misrepresenting the true scale of the issue. To the extent of heckling the Queen.
So that.
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arse
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
One man heckled the Queen, who has friends missing. Feelings are, understandably, running high, but I'd say that the fact that the Queen and Duke of Cambridge have turned up suggests very much that this isn't an event which is being 'down played'.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
One man heckled the Queen, who has friends missing. Feelings are, understandably, running high, but I'd say that the fact that the Queen and Duke of Cambridge have turned up suggests very much that this isn't an event which is being 'down played'.
The Guardian reports:
quote:
Emotions are running high at the protest at Kensington and Chelsea town hall. They were demanding that the chief executive or council leader come out to address them but instead were given a written response by the council’s head of communications.
There were many chants of “Not 17”, a reference to the fact that they believe many more than 17 perished (the official toll has actually been raised to 30).
Whether you think it has been downplayed because the Queen turned up is by-the-by. The fact is that the victims over there feel terribly let down by the authorities and the media.
[ 16. June 2017, 16:24: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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DonLogan2
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# 15608
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Posted
Not sure if it has been covered yet as I missed out page two as I didn`t want to read loads of ranting, and not knowing the full details of this tragedy, my thoughts...
As far as I remember from my science at school and being a firefighter since the late 70`s, everything will burn given the right conditions.
With a wind square onto a large building face fire will tend to jump a floor, the wind seems to have been at an angle to the corner of the building so fire spread seems to be a little more linear and I presume the compartment the fire broke out was at that corner.
Not sure about the building/fire regs regarding fire detection, but the main problem that buildings like this face and apply all their fire seperation is to stop horizontal and vertical fire spread inside the building. That is why the building fire instructions said to stay put.
We can`t legislate for every kind of fire outbreak and occasionally a fire like this wakes us up and is something to learn from, just like Kings Cross, Woolworths Colchester & Manchester and Cheapside.
Feelings can run high at these times and sometimes, probably this time too, someone is to blame, but not for all of it, shit also happens.
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“I have of late, but wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth... "
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
They did that a number of years ago when there was a train crash and the wreck burnt out (near Paddington?)
It was at Ladbroke Grove - horrifically, just a mile from the present disaster.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DonLogan2:
Not sure if it has been covered yet as I missed out page two as I didn`t want to read loads of ranting, and not knowing the full details of this tragedy, my thoughts...
As far as I remember from my science at school and being a firefighter since the late 70`s, everything will burn given the right conditions.
Yes, it's been mentioned here briefly - but not in the Media, as far as I can see. Thanks!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Whether you think it has been downplayed because the Queen turned up is by-the-by. The fact is that the victims over there feel terribly let down by the authorities and the media.
There is absolutely no way this has been downplayed in the media. Just look at today's papers (link to current day: 16 June at the moment).
The explanation of why no casualty figures have been given are as given above. This is social housing and very likely contains some people who have no intention of drawing the authorities' attention to them, even if it's only out of a distrust of the authorities in general.
The reasons tensions are escalating around this incident are because, like Aberfan, it is easy to make it a symbolic focus of a lot of current resentment, the authorities' credibility is at record lows, and I don't think they are doing a very good crisis management job.
I'm not surprised to hear there have been violent confrontations at the local town hall today, and unless someone (the mayor of London?) steps forward fast with some strong and inspiring leadership, I expect things to get worse before they get better.
For dispassionate discussion of the technical aspects of this disaster, I can only recommend the excellent forum I shared in my links earlier.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
There is absolutely no way this has been downplayed in the media. Just look at today's papers (link to current day: 16 June at the moment).
The event and intrusion into the lives of the victims is clearly all over the media. But the seriousness of the event and the likely death toll, arguably, isn't.
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arse
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
From what I have read, the residents' anger isn't so much that it's been downplayed now, but that before the tragedy no-one was interested in reporting on the crap state of social housing in general and the council and management company's lack of interest in fire safety in particular. If someone had run a story on COUNCIL DISMISSES RESIDENTS' SAFETY CONCERNS PUTTING HUNDREDS OF LIVES AT RISK, then maybe the scandal would have forced them to do something.
(Of course maybe it wouldn't or maybe the concerns reported are separate from what actually caused the fire. But that is my understanding of what the residents are complaining about.)
The other aspect to it is that Manchester seems to have had an excellent emergency response plan, and that plan would have included media relations. Kensington and Chelsea's incident plan seems to have been sorely lacking in many respects, so it isn't surprising that their ability to manage the media is also crap.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
There is absolutely no way this has been downplayed in the media. Just look at today's papers (link to current day: 16 June at the moment).
The event and intrusion into the lives of the victims is clearly all over the media. But the seriousness of the event and the likely death toll, arguably, isn't.
I don't think that you can report the one without the other. I don't think that this is going to go away.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
There is absolutely no way this has been downplayed in the media. Just look at today's papers (link to current day: 16 June at the moment).
The event and intrusion into the lives of the victims is clearly all over the media. But the seriousness of the event and the likely death toll, arguably, isn't.
What planet are you on?
Did you read the link? The Express banner headline is "OVER 100 NOW FEARED DEAD". That's kind of hard to miss. The Times leads with US BANNED TOWER CLADDING. The Star has AT LEAST 100 FEARED DEAD IN FIRE HELL. The Mirror has CRIMINAL in huge letters followed by a tirade concluding "We need answers. We need change". The i says "public anger grows at how such a disaster could be allowed to happen". Need I go on?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
mr cheesy is (possibly somewhat ineptly) suggesting that news sources already know that the death toll is likely to reach 200-300+, but are deliberately and slowly edging up the figures so as to get us used to the idea that some, then a few more, then many, people died.
Foreign news coverage, which doesn't come under any UK-government restrictions, are reporting any greater numbers than have been officially announced.
You could argue, though, that the official sources are being leant on.
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Forward the New Republic
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
You need to stop reading those lefty blogs in my view.
It seems far likelier to me that they just don't know. What possible benefit could there be in keeping the numbers artificially low? The media are already taking about 100 dead. That has to be the biggest UK civilian casualty figure for a fire in about forever. This sounds terrible to say, but I think it really isn't going to look that much worse for the authorities at this point if the death toll is 200 or 300 (which I'll go out on a limb and say I believe is unlikely, and hoping not to be proved wrong) compared to 100. I think most of us have trouble envisaging more than that number of dead bodies in one place anyway.
[ 16. June 2017, 19:03: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Whether you think it has been downplayed because the Queen turned up is by-the-by. The fact is that the victims over there feel terribly let down by the authorities and the media.
There is absolutely no way this has been downplayed in the media. Just look at today's papers (link to current day: 16 June at the moment).
The explanation of why no casualty figures have been given are as given above. This is social housing and very likely contains some people who have no intention of drawing the authorities' attention to them, even if it's only out of a distrust of the authorities in general.
The reasons tensions are escalating around this incident are because, like Aberfan, it is easy to make it a symbolic focus of a lot of current resentment, the authorities' credibility is at record lows, and I don't think they are doing a very good crisis management job.
I'm not surprised to hear there have been violent confrontations at the local town hall today, and unless someone (the mayor of London?) steps forward fast with some strong and inspiring leadership, I expect things to get worse before they get better.
For dispassionate discussion of the technical aspects of this disaster, I can only recommend the excellent forum I shared in my links earlier.
The channel 4 reporters filming at that protest made the point that was some pushing and shoving but the protest was otherwise peaceful.
Nor does your link support what is a fairly serious allegation.
Maybe we could avoid stigmatising the expressions of anger of seriously distressed people who have been ignored for years.
[ 16. June 2017, 19:11: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What possible benefit could there be in keeping the numbers artificially low?
They may be worried about the possibility of riots.
That said, I suspect it is more the lack of competent communication than conspiracy.
They would command more confidence if they said, there were x many tenants, we have accounted for y many, we know z many are definitely missing and we know v many are dead. Come to that, they'd command more confidence if they showed some sign of knowing how many people were actually living in the building.
Right now I am seeing estimates of 400-600 people living there. I have not seeing anyone saying "and we've traced 346 of those folk".
[ 16. June 2017, 19:16: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I agree with everything in your last post except your first sentence and absent a D-notice, I really can't see the British press deliberately under-reporting casualty figures out of a concern for keeping the peace.
Honestly, it is not reporting a figure of 100 as opposed to 200 or 300 that is going to make a difference to whether or not there is civil unrest. Above around 100 deaths, I think the actual numbers are not really much more evocative until you get to, say, 500.
It's the rest of the context and all the other things you mention.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
The fact that large numbers of donations are not being collected by victims is quite telling.
Maybe there are not all that many victims.
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arse
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
What I don't understand, is why people are still sleeping on the floor of leisure centres ¹, as if the council are somehow unaware of the existence of hotels in London.
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¹ Guardian
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The fact that large numbers of donations are not being collected by victims is quite telling.
Maybe there are not all that many victims.
Or they're dead. There were 124 flats.
The large numbers of displaced people, are folk evacuated from the surrounding area - their problem is accommodation rather than lack of possessions.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Or they're dead. There were 124 flats.
The large numbers of displaced people, are folk evacuated from the surrounding area - their problem is accommodation rather than lack of possessions.
The council have said that about 70 households are in temporary accommodation IIRC. I don't think anyone has said how many are people from the tower.
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arse
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Presumably the need for temporary accommodation for those evacuated from surrounding homes is only likely to be for a very short time? The tower seems to be safe from collapse, though doubtless it'll eventually be demolished.
124 flats all destroyed, though, and with numerous families among their tenants, still equates to a major rehousing task.
Doesn't David Cameron live just up the road? Maybe he could take in a family or several...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The fact that large numbers of donations are not being collected by victims is quite telling.
Maybe there are not all that many victims.
Disasters like this attract all sorts of donations that are entirely unrelated to the actual logistics requirements.
It's good that there's such a response as it says something about community spirit, but you very definitely cannot draw any firm conclusions about numbers on the basis of that evidence.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Mmm yes I know about the problems with donations during disasters. The problem is that these are actually relevant donations which people need if they've lost everything and which are not being collected but instead are piling up.
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arse
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The fact that large numbers of donations are not being collected by victims is quite telling.
Maybe there are not all that many victims.
I'd be surprised if the victims collected any donations. At least not if we're defining victims as dead or critically injured. It would all be a bit American Gods.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The matter is being attended to sensibly by at least one local church:
http://www.stclementjames.org.uk/2017/06/15/grenfell-tower-disaster/
Doubtless there are other places of worship doing the same.
IJ
Similarly, my alma mater, which has facilities just up the road, is helping accommodate classes from the neighbouring school which is affected.
I don't think the media are a good place to get a feel for precisely how the nuts and bolts of support operations are being organised. They'd rather post pictures of floral tributes and fire damage.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You need to stop reading those lefty blogs in my view.
One person in my FB feed linked to Squawkbox that carried the initial claim. I queried it, and after an hour or so, heard from another internet source that confirmed there was no D notice.
I've barely started reading lefty blogs. I don't have any bookmarked, and I don't start my morning by nipping out for the Morning Star, either.
So I'm not sure - given the way the mainstream media is handling things, reporting on the "storming of the council offices" when the protesters simply walked in, given the way the local council are apparently too inept to coordinate a relief effort or even put some people up in a hotel, given that yet again we have friends and relatives trawling hospitals looking for news of their loved ones - where you suggest people go for accurate information.
Even the stopped clocks of the Mail and the Sun are going to be right twice a day. No reason for 'lefty' newsblogs to be any less accurate.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
"Victims" is a very loose word. Not exactly definable.
The tidal waves of this disaster immediately spread. Most people in the vicinity were woken by the noise, lots of people both heard and saw stuff that they would rather not have experienced and it seems like everyone knows someone or works with someone affected.
It's not just the people who died and their families and friends, it is the whole area. Sleep deprived, concerned, trying to control the adrenaline that goes through our bodies at such times.....
Add to that the persistent warnings that were given, the endless communications and the downright shocking manner in which those who were raising these questions were treated.......
And yes, people get upset. And other people might take advantage of the situation.
But to the question raised in the OP..."What warnings are we currently ignoring?"
My own opinion is that as a country we are underestimating the disgraceful attitude of those with privilege in this country.
Profits have been put before people to such an extent that we accept blatant injustice as somehow ......necessary.
For how long?
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[ 16. June 2017, 21:06: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I don't know how relevant is is, but there is a series of progression images on the BBC showing how the fire spread. In the early hours it looks like one side of the building was alight in a weird diagonal direction.
The outside clearly was alight, although it isn't clear from the images whether the fire spread from the outside in or the inside out.
Hence the need for a proper investigation before jumping to conclusions.
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So I'm not sure (...) where you suggest people go for accurate information.
I'm not claiming it's wholly accurate, but I find Wikipedia to be a good first port of call. Looking there, for instance, should be enough to cast serious doubt on the rumour that a D-notice was issued with regard to this disaster; it's simply not the right category of event, for one thing.
Apart from that, in situations like this I trawl through Fark until I find a link to a professional website where the topic at hand is discussed (mostly) dispasionnately by people taking a (mostly) professional approach (when they're not complaining about media distorsion of the facts of the case). These sites often have more useful links. That's how I found the site I linked to in my first post on this thread, and very informative it is too.
It has the manufacturer's data sheets on the insulation used (or at least declared as being used) with references to the relevant standards. Actual, objective facts ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
On stuff like casualty numbers, you simply have to wait. I agree with Doublethink's appraisal of the dismal performance of the housing authority in terms of so much as stating how many residents the building was supposed to have.
In a world in which electorates can be swayed by a President declaring a story "fake" and the BBC words its headlines on the basis of clickbait rather than clarity, I often wish that fact-checking was right up there with maths and PE as a mandatory school subject.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Oh i'm not jumping to any conclusions...although people shouting in London's streets may very well be.
[ 16. June 2017, 21:37: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
One man heckled the Queen, who has friends missing. Feelings are, understandably, running high, but I'd say that the fact that the Queen and Duke of Cambridge have turned up suggests very much that this isn't an event which is being 'down played'.
Pretty much everyone who's not Jeremy Corbyn has been heckled when they've visited, I don't get why that's surprising. Given that this has included Sadiq Khan, I don't think Mrs Windsor (or you) should take it personally. I agree that it hasn't been played down - even the BBC are showing the weight of people's anger, and rightly so.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It has the manufacturer's data sheets on the insulation used (or at least declared as being used) with references to the relevant standards. Actual, objective facts
Just a pedantic note: Manufacturer's information is not always objective. Not making any claims in this particular case, just as a general note.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It has the manufacturer's data sheets on the insulation used (or at least declared as being used) with references to the relevant standards. Actual, objective facts
Just a pedantic note: Manufacturer's information is not always objective. Not making any claims in this particular case, just as a general note.
That's why I said "declared as being used".
The contractors may turn out to have skimped by using poorer quality materials or to have improperly installed it, but the actual data sheet for the product declared as being used, and its corresponding fire rating, is damning enough.
It's legal but wouldn't be under standards in neighbouring countries.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Oh i'm not jumping to any conclusions...although people shouting in London's streets may very well be.
Understandably - they witnessed a terrible man-made disaster which they know would not have happened in the multi million pound apartments next door.
I think those empty apartments should be requisitioned to house the people who have been made homeless. The cost would hardly scratch the surface of the absent owners' finances.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
in situations like this I trawl through Fark until I find a link to a professional website where the topic at hand is discussed (mostly) dispasionnately by people taking a (mostly) professional approach (when they're not complaining about media distorsion of the facts of the case).
The BBC is currently running a story on the collision between a Japanese container ship and a US destroyer taking graphics and analysis lifted directly from a Fark thread (the analysis in question has since been corrected on Fark, but not on the BBC at the time of writing).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I think those empty apartments should be requisitioned to house the people who have been made homeless. The cost would hardly scratch the surface of the absent owners' finances.
Isn't there a small problem in that such apartments don't actually exist?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Link as per mr cheesy's comment showing the diagonal shear, a combination of wind, chimney effect and an actual integral 'chimney'?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I think I heard something about the possibility of requisitioning those apartments. Their residents/owners aren't currently living there. I don't know what the legalities would be, but it's a creative solution if there aren't other places available.
Though it might be painful for the fire survivors to go from public housing to a place they'll never be able to have again, IMHO.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There is more than one 'chimney'. A vortex can be independent of any surrounding wind direction. They can contra-rotate.
[ 17. June 2017, 09:05: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I think those empty apartments should be requisitioned to house the people who have been made homeless. The cost would hardly scratch the surface of the absent owners' finances.
Isn't there a small problem in that such apartments don't actually exist?
As I may have mentioned before, there are about 200,000 empty homes in England alone. They aren't all in post-industrial slums either. Over a million council homes were sold at massive discounts to their tenants, leaving the councils unable to replace the shortfall.
In short, many of those apartments would exist
were it not for the great sell-off of the 1980's.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Proudhon comes to mind.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Property is theft. Often wrongly attributed to old Karlchen.
[ 17. June 2017, 09:45: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
You've done it again! Who on earth is Karlchen?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
German for Charlie. Diminutive of Karl. Marx.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
This is a report about a report, as it were, but I can't yet find a link to the report itself.
Which even if true is only talking about a relatively small segment of the housing stock, and gives no indication as to how either the housing itself or the empty units are concentrated across London.
The spreadsheet I linked to is very much at the conservative end of the estimates, and would indicate that at the very least there are several thousand empty housing units in Kensington and Chelsea at this point.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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