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Source: (consider it) Thread: What should we do about 'our own' terrorists?
The Midge
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Today news is breaking of an appalling attack against Muslims after Ramadan Prayers in London. My thoughts and prayers are with the victims of this tragedy. It is being treated as a terrorist incident (rightly IMHO). There was also a story on the BBC about a Muslim lady who was killed after leaving a mosque in Virginia, this is being considered a hate crime (although I can't see any real difference between that and terrorism).

There have been many demands for Muslims to denounce and deal with Jihadists attacks and terrorism in the name of Islam. Now it looks like Christian denominations and secular society are going to have to do the same.

The details behind these stories of who and why are yet to emerge. But dealing with the evil within doesn't look so easy. What can we do about our own potential terrorists?

I'm conscious that a Muslim may see the label "Christian" no matter how nominal that faith is or Batshit crazy the individual.

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Penny S
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Apparently the perpetrator has a load of supporters glorifying in his action - I hope they will be picked up for what is definitely a breach of the law. Not a law I was in favour of when brought in, but so long as it is applied equally, fitting the case.
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Doc Tor
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What do we do?

Firstly, I'd put the EDL on the list of proscribed organisations. I'd make membership an arrestable offence and I'd put their leaders on the same control regime as other hate preachers are.

Secondly, I'd be looking very hard at the media and those organisations that employ people specifically to whip up racial and religious tensions.

Thirdly, I'd be expecting our 'own' religious leaders to speak out, unequivocally, that harming our Muslim neighbour by word or deed is contrary to the Christian gospel and our nation's values. It might even be time we brought back excommunication as a verbal weapon.

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Lost in Space

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Penny S
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That might not work. I know of a person turned down for some reason for ordination in, I seem to remember, more than one denomination, including the CofE, who set up his own church. In Canterbury. (I don't know the recent history of this.)
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PaulTH*
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They should be treated exactly the same as Muslim purveyors of hate. Prosecute and imprison ALL hate preachers and give life sentences to anyone dealing in acts of terror. No exceptions. No excuses.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Mark Wuntoo
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The perpetrators of these atrocities are all 'our own'. Or not, of course. My point is that we further divide our society if we see some as different from others. An 'extremist muslim' is no more muslim than an extremist who claims to be christian is christian - they are all evil and have no place in our world.
Note: there also is the question of mental illness to be considered.

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
The perpetrators of these atrocities are all 'our own'. Or not, of course. My point is that we further divide our society if we see some as different from others. An 'extremist muslim' is no more muslim than an extremist who claims to be christian is christian - they are all evil and have no place in our world.
Note: there also is the question of mental illness to be considered.

I would suggest simple self-deception is at the root of many acts of terrorism, especially those citing "faith" as a pretext.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
The perpetrators of these atrocities are all 'our own'. Or not, of course. My point is that we further divide our society if we see some as different from others. An 'extremist muslim' is no more muslim than an extremist who claims to be christian is christian - they are all evil and have no place in our world.

Cynical me wonders about such declarations so late in the game.

quote:

Note: there also is the question of mental illness to be considered.

Sound suspiciously like an irregular verb.

This apologia cannot be the way forward. Yes, the message that a society should be as one is one to espouse.
But not without throwing light on the attitudes which have fuelled this act. And not just the EDL, but the othering that is pervasive in the general culture.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Sandemaniac
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For anyone who thinks Muslims are not British, I cannot help feeling that there is something very British about the imam apparently stopping people beating the attacker.
(may not play outside UK, sorry!).

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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I suspect "EDL" means "English defence league" which wikipedia describes as a far-right group opposed to Sharia laws and Islam. Never heard of them.

Is there evidence that this group was behind the attack? Or are you conveniently targetting a hateful group you would have justification for disliking and wanting to ban on other grounds? There's still a rule of law to be applied isn't there?

Don't slam for this, because I just learned of this EDL thing 10 mins ago and also the 'sort of' use of Sharia in the UK. Does this EDL group have a point at all, even if they have terrible ways of expressing and doing? Looking at that on wikipedia led me to Islamic Sharia Council which apparently has no legal standing in the UK, but obviously wields considerable social pressure for Muslims to accept its voluntary judgements. This would be a problem: if someone who is not treated in accord with law is basically ostracised or otherwise cannot go to normal laws and courts because they pressures the community exerts.

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
For anyone who thinks Muslims are not British, I cannot help feeling that there is something very British about the imam apparently stopping people beating the attacker.
(may not play outside UK, sorry!)

Yes the Imam was very impressive, perhaps even saving the attacker's life. A true holy man! But I think the message which comes out from the community is that we are all united in our determination not to be divided by the events of the last few weeks. In Western Europe there have been many attacks by Islamic extremists, and in the UK we've had our share. They are designed to produce Islamophobia, to push for the final jihad against the infidel. They have partly succeeded in that Islamophobic attacks have lately been on the increase. All peace loving people need to stand up united in resistance against all attempts to polarise communities. I hope that this man, apparently from Cardiff, was just a lone unhinged nutjob and we don't see any repeats, but he must never see daylight again except through prison bars. He's a terrorist of the most unacceptable kind and a murderer.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is there evidence that this group [the EDL] was behind the attack? Or are you conveniently targetting a hateful group you would have justification for disliking and wanting to ban on other grounds?

Evidence, for or against, will come out during investigations over the next weeks. It wouldn't surprise me if the man who carried out this attack claims inspiration from the EDL or a similar group (Britain First etc).

Senior members of EDL have called the Finsbury Park mosque a place with a history of promoting terrorism (without any evidence), and called the attack last night "revenge". It seems an open and shut case that if a very small minority of muslims are considered to have inspired terrorist acts then the same could be said of the EDL and similar groups.

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Citizen of the world.

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irreverend tod
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quote:
Note: there also is the question of mental illness to be considered.
This is exactly the excuse that one of the Muslim guys from the mosque said would be used to 'excuse' the behaviour of the van driver.
We use mental illness way to often in the UK because the phrase evil bastard offends the sensibilities of the chattering classes who don't want to admit that evil exists. It does just as good does, but that's uncomfortably close to religiosity for some people.

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quetzalcoatl
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I'm not sure about 'admitting' that evil exists. Is that the secret shame of the chatterati? I don't understand what evil might be, or how it's determined.

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one City, United, Love MCR!

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The Midge
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I have been saddened if not sickened by the acceptability of anti-immigrant/ refugee diatribes that are gaining traction on platforms such as Facebook, Twitter and BBC's ‘Have Your Say’ (Yes I took a look at the EDL web site too. I think they are a nasty bunch even though they espouse freedom of speech and non violence at least as far as saying anything they like about Muslims without justification and primarily concerned about Isis inspired terrorist attacks.)

The root of such attitudes is regularly touted on the front pages of British tabloids. Some of the same voices seem to have Dawkins-like-but-more-extreem-and-less-considered hostility to all religions and argue that all religion is evil, cause all wars Etc. Etc. I would like to point out to them they sound a lot like ISIS. How can these be countered without feeding the trolls?
Muslims haven’t been allowed to justify Jihadist attacks by saying they are works of the insane. What is looking increasingly like a revenge attack has followed a kind of logical progression from vitriolic rhetoric to violent reaction.

Anyhow, reports are suggesting the attacker was an apparently normal 47 year old dad of four. So obviously the Prevent Strategy needs to widen its scope somewhat.

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Enoch
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I'm less convinced that I might once have been that 'mental illness' is either a possible excuse or a relevant explanation for outrages. The bien pensant among us tend to assume that people who do vicious things that are outside the range of things we can imagine ourselves doing, must be insane in some way. Otherwise they wouldn't have done them.

I don't think that's true. Even if it were, why is it any sort of mitigation? IMHO it's an insult to the perpetrator to suggest that he or she (usually he) isn't responsible for their actions. As far as I know, neither Anders Breivik nor Thomas Mair claimed to be insane, and the members of ISIS don't either.

If a person can go to the lengths of planning an outrage, I don't think we should deny them the moral responsibility either for carrying it out, or adopting a world view that enables them to do so.

Tout comprendre is not tout pardonner.

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Ricardus
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The concept that slightly disturbs me is 'radicalised' and 'radicalisation'. To say someone has been 'radicalised' implies a passive process that they undergo at the hands of someone else, as though they were merely clay to be moulded by the potter. And yet, when they kill people, they are treated as fully morally responsible. This suggests an incoherence of thought somewhere.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
The concept that slightly disturbs me is 'radicalised' and 'radicalisation'. To say someone has been 'radicalised' implies a passive process that they undergo at the hands of someone else, as though they were merely clay to be moulded by the potter. And yet, when they kill people, they are treated as fully morally responsible. This suggests an incoherence of thought somewhere.

Only if you believe in zero-sum responsibility for one's actions.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Ricardus
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I don't in general, but in this case we're talking about where people get the idea from that mass murder is morally licit or desirable.

If they made a moral choice to accept that idea, then they haven't 'been radicalised' - whatever they've done was a verb in the active voice.

If they didn't make a moral choice, and the idea was genuinely instilled in them somehow, then, reprehensible though it may be, they are acting correctly by their own lights in committing mass murder.

[ 19. June 2017, 21:41: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Doublethink.
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What is the defining difference between terrorism and war ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Curiosity killed ...

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Prevent applies in places of education, schools and colleges, having had to update my certificate today, and the legislation includes far right extremism, religious extremism and animal rights extremism. So unless the driver is a staff member at a place covered by the legislation, Prevent may not be relevant.

Prevent includes the requirement to teach British values which include democracy, upholding the law and religious tolerance.

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Doublethink.
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Prevent is part of the adult safeguarding duty for health and social care.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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simontoad
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I think this Billy Bragg song from 1991 is aposite, even though its about football thugs. My feeling is that football is the cradle of modern English hate.

The Few
At night the Baby Brotherhood and the Inter City Crew
Fill their pockets up with calling cards
And paint their faces red white and blue
Then they go out seeking different coloured faces
And anyone else that they can scare
And they salute the foes their fathers fought
By raising their right hands in the air
Oh look how my country's patriots are hunting down below
What do they know of England who only England know

[deleted remaining lyrics]

Billy Bragg: The Few

[ 20. June 2017, 07:06: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
If they made a moral choice to accept that idea, then they haven't 'been radicalised' - whatever they've done was a verb in the active voice.

If they didn't make a moral choice, and the idea was genuinely instilled in them somehow, then, reprehensible though it may be, they are acting correctly by their own lights in committing mass murder.

One could justify it on pragmatic grounds - that despite the apparent loss of self control one needs to maintain a justice system that deters and provides retribution.

But I think it is too black or white. No action is taken without context, irrespective of radicalisation or provocation. If I provoke someone to anger, and they then engage in assault on that basis I don't diminish their criminal responsibility. Likewise if I persuade someone that terrorism is jihad they nevertheless retain responsibility for their actions based on that belief.

The idea that radicalisation involves a removal of responsibility implies that it is something like hypnosis or induced insanity. It isn't that simple, and I think it is perfectly logical to discourage terror by punishing terrorists, but also recognising the role played by radicalisation.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
The perpetrators of these atrocities are all 'our own'. Or not, of course. My point is that we further divide our society if we see some as different from others. An 'extremist muslim' is no more muslim than an extremist who claims to be christian is christian - they are all evil and have no place in our world.
Note: there also is the question of mental illness to be considered.

A sound position. But let's acknowledge that that isn't the dominant narrative in the media when a Muslim is a terrorist.

The sorts of things one hears when a brown guy with an Arabic/Persian/Turkish/East-of-Greece name does something like this are;

1) Where are the Muslims out on the streets protesting this?

2) How many Muslim leaders have denounced it? (Doesn't matter if some have, you still hear it)

3) Muslim communities must do more to root out this sort of incident. It beggars belief that no-one knew he was radicalised and planning this.

4) Muslim parents must be more responsible in identifying this in their children.

I think that's bullshit then, and bullshit now, but I do think we ought to acknowledge there is inequality in its application by mainstream media in the UK.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Today news is breaking of an appalling attack against Muslims after Ramadan Prayers in London.

What would the responsible elements in the media be warning if a person of "Middle Eastern appearance", with a non-European name, was in charge of a car which had careered into a group of Christians coming out of church?

To assume the possiblity of an accident, perhaps involving alcohol, drugs, or texting while driving.

To assume the possibility of the driver's having experienced a psychological or physical episode unrelated to the persons who were hurt.

To take any reports in the immediate aftermath by excited onlookers of shouted abuse on the part of the driver with a grain of salt until the completion of police investigations and the trial.

To ask whether any evidence in the form of literature, flags, banners, weapons or explosives were discovered in the vehicle or the driver's home.

To ask whether there was any evidence of the driver's having belonged to any dubious religious or political organisation.

To avoid any automatic assumption of a terrorist/hate crime.

To avoid kneejerk generalisations about the community to which the driver belonged.

To avoid characterising the driver, in the case of eventual unambiguous evidence of an attempt at a terrorist/hate crime (such as racial/religious shouted abuse, or Islamofascist literature, or membership of an extremist group) as representative, let alone "typical", of his own religious, national or ethnic background, rather than being a "lone wolf" independent operator.

[ 20. June 2017, 07:06: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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Simontoad,

We do not reproduce copyright material on the Ship (see Commandment 7).

I've deleted all but the first verse of the Billy Bragg song, and inserted a link to an online source for that material. Which is an appropriate way to share copyright material here.

Alan
Ship of Fools Admin

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simontoad
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sorry. It took me so long to find the song I was thinking of I got a bit over-excited [Smile]

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
What would the responsible elements in the media be warning if a person of "Middle Eastern appearance", with a non-European name, was in charge of a car which had careered into a group of Christians coming out of church?

Absolutely. It's just that we get "Muslim plot to kill pope" and "Jolly Jihadi Boy's Outing to Legoland" from time to time as well, and "Why can't Muslims do more to prevent this".

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Jane R
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Kaplan Corday:
quote:
What would the responsible elements in the media be warning if a person of "Middle Eastern appearance", with a non-European name, was in charge of a car which had careered into a group of Christians coming out of church?
<takes out magnifying glass, goes to look for responsible elements in the media>

I may be gone for a while.

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