homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » What should we do about 'our own' terrorists? (Page 25)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  22  23  24  25  26 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: What should we do about 'our own' terrorists?
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's a matter of education. Nobody with a liberal arts degree or even 'A' levels in English literature and history could think in such a faulty way.

Ha ha ha ...

I now await notification from Jamat and Kaplan as to what particular qualifications they have and their reactions to such 'pomposity' ...

Hmmmm. Early days I suppose. KC, like Russ, can't stoop to respond to me directly, but Jamat should.

Anybody aware of any contemporary academic or writer who thinks like them?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The only goals that have been scored in this match are the ones going into the back of your net, Kaplan.

It's an open goal and you're the only one here who can't see it.

You are making my points for me without realising you are doing it. You may as well face it as you are facing the wrong way and booting ball after ball into your own net.

Yes, Cromwell would have been aware of the peaceful witness of the Quakers in his own day and that of the Anabaptists in previous generations. Charlemagne and the Crusaders wouldn't.

It's not just Drogheda and Wexford as blips. Sure, he was aware of the seriousness of that and regretted the loss of life in his report to Parliament. But his whole world-view was one where Providence would smile on his particular cause because he believed it to be just, even though it would involve the spilling of blood and of a degree of 'collateral damage.'

I don't know how anyone's blood wouldn't go cold when they read, 'God made them as stubble to our swords ...'

Yes, in granting an unprecedented degree of religious freedom, Cromwell went part way towards your 'ideal' and what all of us here would consider the right state of affairs in terms of religious pluralism.

I would argue that he would not have been able at that time to go the whole way and tolerate Anglicans (in their pre-civil war form) and RCs. It would have been a step too far for political reasons.

That isn't historical determinism in the cast iron sense you are accusing me of.

We are constrained by our conditioning but that does not remove our culpability.

Charlemagne couldn't have introduced a full Parliamentary democracy in the modern pluralist sense. That option wasn't open to him. He could have shown clemency towards his enemies. That option was and he didn't take it.

Unlike mr cheesy, I don't see the need to introduce putative theologians living or dead or out of earshot.

Your goal has been open since the start of this thread. You have no effective defences, no goalie. Not only that, you are facing the wrong way and kicking your balls into the back of your own net whilst blithely imagining you are performing well mid-field and that your forwards are undertaking spectacular crosses down each wing.

It's fun to watch but it's beginning to look rather pathetic.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


Unlike mr cheesy, I don't see the need to introduce putative theologians living or dead or out of earshot.

Excuse me? He made some tower of argument based on the fact that nobody could name a theologian who believed in religious violence - but that might just be because we only have a small frame of theological reference as we are coming from a English-speaking theological background.

I don't think anyone has brought this particular point up before.

Maybe you should stop posting things that just reiterate what you already said. How about that?

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10330 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Please Sir, I thought I implicitly made the point here?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My point was that his argument has long been dead in the water so there's no need to introduce any further argument until he's accepted the paucity of his position so far.

Trouble is, that lays me open to reiterating points I've already made. I see that now.

The irony is that Kaplan thinks he's winning and can't see how he's scoring own goal after own goal.

If he could read the runes he'd concede defeat, relieve the pressure on his balls, breathe more easily and be able to take stock, review the match clips and realise how many goals he's allowed into his own net and how few he's put into other people's.

In the instance you've raised of putative out-of-earshot theologians, I'm not sure I'd grace whatever 'thinkers' and commentators the extreme US Right are drawing on with the epithet 'theologians'.

Otherwise, your point is well made.

As you were ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Also, if I repeat or reiterate points I've made previously it's often because Kaplan misunderstands or chooses to misinterpret them - as per his accusation that I'm applying some kind of cast-iron determinism when I've done abso-fucking-lutely nothing of the kind.

If he bothered to read for comprehension or was capable of doing so, he'd have seen that.

Sorry, but there we are.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

In the instance you've raised of putative out-of-earshot theologians, I'm not sure I'd grace whatever 'thinkers' and commentators the extreme US Right are drawing on with the epithet 'theologians'.


And that is perhaps the root of this discussion: who is a theologian, when is a hermeneutic valid (can a hermeneutic be invalid if many people believe and act upon it), etc and so on.

I use fairly broad definitions. If people believe in a worked-out theology, it is a hermeneutic even if we don't understand or like it. If someone is some kind of Christian leader (writer, preacher, commentator) with some kind of following, I find it hard to believe that he's not a theologian (or at least working within a school of thought).

The key point isn't simply whether or not our group accepts the theology, whether it makes sense to us in our particular culture etc.

It doesn't really matter whether we accept someone as a theologian or what they express as a hermeneutic. Surely the only thing that matters is whether they're speaking for anyone other than themselves.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10330 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sure, I get that. There's a Russian saying, 'The one who prays, they are a theologian.'

As a definition though, that surely only takes us so far. The KKK pray. Does that validate their warped theology?

But yes, I take the point you're making and it does lie at the root of this thread. How do we interpret scripture and how do we validate or invalidate particular viewpoints whilst taking into account conditions, context and all the other factors.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, I get that. There's a Russian saying, 'The one who prays, they are a theologian.'

As a definition though, that surely only takes us so far. The KKK pray. Does that validate their warped theology?

I was reflecting on the Moonies - who have a fairly advanced and complicated theology, albeit one we'd all likely agree is a long way off-beam.

I suppose for me the critical thing is whether the group themselves self-describe as Christians.

And both the KKK and the Moonies are quite a long way from the Holy Roman Empire wrt their position within Christianity - at best the former are at the edges of what can be described as Christian today whereas in the past it was a central belief of the main branch of Christianity.

On the other hand, I suppose that if your definition of what can possibly be Christian excludes those who commit religious warfare and genocide, then it isn't really saying anything much to insist that those who do it can't be Christian.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10330 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What I don't understand is how we can reasonably expect Charlemagne or Cromwell to have acted like a 20th or 21st century politician - or indeed anything other than what they were - 8th century or 17th century rulers, simply because they both had the NT.

When it should be blindingly obvious to anyone with more than a basic three R's education that these things developed over time.

We have no idea whatsoever what kind of government the Apostle Paul would have favoured because there weren't a great deal of options open to him and he seemed to accept what was going - with some caveats.

As a Roman citizen it's hard to see what else he could have done.

What sort of view he'd have taken had he lived in the 8th century, the 17th century or today can only be a matter of speculation.

Since when has the NT been a blue-print for absolutely everything? It's there to lead us to Christ and to help conform us to his image - which surely precludes violence - but what seems obvious to us about it wouldn't have necessarily been obvious to people at other times - particularly those where alternative models of government and society weren't available.

It took the Black Death to demolish the feudal system, it took lobbying, legislation and wars to abolish slavery.

It didn't happen overnight as the result of a couple of people poring over the NT.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

 - Posted      Profile for Russ   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
KC, like Russ, can't stoop to respond to me directly, but Jamat should.

Happy to respond to you, Martin. I just can't decode some of your more cryptic one-liners.

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 3073 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

 - Posted      Profile for Russ   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Quoting non-existent statistics is straight talking?

I was trying to make concisely the distinction between

on the one hand believing anything negative about Jews because one has an underlying animosity to Jewish culture & religion (which attitude I'm happy to call antisemitic)

and on the other hand believing that Jewish culture is below-average in one particular respect because that's the way that one's experience and encountered evidence seems to point (with no emotional investment in finding one way or the other, which isn't anti-anything).

The word "statistically" was intended to convey a mode of neutral evidence-based belief that something is actually factually true.

Not to assert that I personally have seen such statistics or believe that if collected they would necessarily say anything in particular.

I'm sorry if this was unclear.

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 3073 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Even reading back I can't see that made clear.

I would say that the idea that any statistic or personal experience would lead one to conclude that a culture was inferior in a particular respect is problematic. All one can say is that this particular group of people has a particular characteristic. Labelling a culture as if it has an intrinsic property based on that is deeply problematic, as if culture is a euphemism for race and we are still in the Victorian age of assigning human races characteristics.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
KC, like Russ, can't stoop to respond to me directly, but Jamat should.

Happy to respond to you, Martin. I just can't decode some of your more cryptic one-liners.
My unreserved apologies Russ. NOW I understand. Thank you.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

 - Posted      Profile for Russ   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

I would say that the idea that any statistic or personal experience would lead one to conclude that a culture was inferior in a particular respect is problematic. All one can say is that this particular group of people has a particular characteristic. Labelling a culture as if it has an intrinsic property based on that is deeply problematic, as if culture is a euphemism for race and we are still in the Victorian age of assigning human races characteristics.

If the particular group of Jewish people I've met have things in common which I find admirable, am I compelled in your view to conclude that this is pure coincidence ? Is it so inconceivable to you that the concept of "Jewish culture" could possibly have meaning ?

Or are we to take it that your view on Islamic terrorism is that it is your policy not to have a view on any aspect of Islamic culture because you're afraid of being thought a racist ?

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 3073 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Come back Kaplan, all is forgiven ...

Give me your myopic pontifications any day of the week compared to Russ's twaddle.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
you can state confidently that there are no hermeneutics in play in these situations, can you?

Of course there are hermeneutics in play in such situations - really shitty, inadequate hermeneutics, with all the exegetical sophistication of deriving guidance from the dimensions of the Great Pyramid on the basis of Isaiah 19;19-20, or deliberately drinking poison on the basis of Mark 16:18, or going out and slaughtering the reprobate because God has "told" you to do so through one of the more lurid passages in Revelation.

Your elusive NT scholars whom we don't know about (untheologians?) but who definitely believe the NT teaches/requires/allows the killing of heretics and heathen, are beginning to look more and more like the "...little man upon the stair/A little man who wasn't there".

Posts: 3238 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I feel a bit inadequate responding with only one post after your six (at last count) since my last post which specifically name me - I don't know when you find time to eat!

Perhaps I should feel flattered....


quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, Cromwell would have been aware of the peaceful witness of the Quakers in his own day and that of the Anabaptists in previous generations.

Amongst other factors, and could have therefore have acted differently.

quote:
We are constrained by our conditioning but that does not remove our culpability.

Charlemagne couldn't have introduced a full Parliamentary democracy in the modern pluralist sense. That option wasn't open to him. He could have shown clemency towards his enemies. That option was and he didn't take it.

You are contradicting yourself.

You want to have your cake (given their historical circumstances, Charlemagne, Cromwell et al could not have even conceived of acting differently from how they did) and eat it (they were culpable because they could have conceived and acted differently).

You have regressed obdurately and immediately to your besetting sin of rigid binary positioning.

And just as an exercise in nostalgia to remind you of your shameful evangelical past, here is a verse to reinforce the rebuke: "As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly" Proverbs 26:11).

It is not a matter of two alternative positions, ie Charlemagne and Cromwell should have acted like 21st century liberal pluralists, versus Charlemagne and Cromwell were irrevocably locked into the limitations of their prevailing worldview.

They were both in a position to understand, on the basis of examples in church history, other Christians, and Scripture, the principle that Christians are not intended to kill heretics and heathen per se, ie simply on the grounds that they were heretics and heathen.

[ 28. August 2017, 02:51: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

Posts: 3238 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Is it so inconceivable to you that the concept of "Jewish culture" could possibly have meaning ?

The concept of culture has a meaning that doesn't involve statistics on the frequency of cut-throat capitalists. That's not what culture is.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You really can't see it, can you, Kaplan?

Read what I write, not what you think I've written.

I have written that we are constrained and conditioned by our culture and context.

We all agree on that.

What I have not said is that this means we are completely incapable of independent thought or action.

In Charlemagne's context that means that whilst he could have certainly shown clemency, introducing a more pluralist religious policy was not an option open to him at that particular time and context.

That's not contradictory or binary.

That's simply an historical observation and one you appear to wish to elide.

Equally, in Cromwell's case, because of changes in society, culture and conditions, he was able to exercise a greater degree of pluralism than would have been available to his predecessors - but not as much as those who came after him.

I really don't see why that's so difficult a concept to comprehend.

It's not me who is being binary. You are. And the irony is, you can't see it.

Don't flatter yourself in terms of the volume of my posts. I post quickly. I type fast. I shoot from the hip.

If I've posted inveterately here it's because I'm exasperated by your simplistic, binary, a-historical and untenable arguments.

I'd call you to Hell but you'd be flattered by that.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Also, if you'd read my posts properly, you'll have seen that I've speculated that not even Charlemagne - most of the time - would have considered it legitimate to kill people simply because they were heathen of heretics.

I've posted this a number of times.

I wouldn't be surprised if he'd have executed hundreds of Saxon 'rebels' had the Saxons already been Christians or Christianised when he annexed Saxony.

I doubt very much that he randomly executed any Jews, Muslim or pagan who happened to be traveling within his borders.

Equally with Cromwell, other than the Jesuit priests and the monks and nuns found within the walls of Drogheda and Wexford, those who perished there weren't killed simply because they were Catholics.

It's not an exact analogy, but it would be like saying that the very Catholic population of Nagasaki was nuked for being Catholic rather than for being Japanese.

Nobody is saying that the NT 'requires' or 'commands' rulers to execute heathen or heretics, all that's been said is that to a certain extent rulers like Charlemagne and Cromwell would have understood their 'God-given' authority in a way that could encompass that at times.

If your world-view is one of, 'God gave them as stubble to our swords' - then it's not hard to see how they could take things to that kind of conclusion.

They brought that world-view with them when approaching the scriptures.

We might not like that, but that's how they thought.

You have not proven otherwise. Because you can't and all the historical evidence is against you.

Please do me the courtesy of reading what I write and not what you think I write. And do yourself a favour by reading for comprehension. That way you'd score fewer own goals and stop revealing your own ignorance.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
G., why is it so hard for you to understand, the KC Sunshine hermeneutic shines through all of time and shone in the eyes of Charlemagne and all those that deliberately chose to look away since Constantine.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
{tangent}

Martin--

I'll see your KC & the Sunshine Band, and raise you "Let The Sun Shine In", from "Hair".
[Biased]

{end tangent}

[ 28. August 2017, 08:22: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18178 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

 - Posted      Profile for Jamat   Author's homepage   Email Jamat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Gamaliel: the irony is, you can't see it.

The irony actually is that you lost the argument back about page 10 because you refuse to admit the implication of what you assert. You want to argue the defining power of culture, but then you deny that that argument actually excuses behaviour which in no sense ever, by any definition could be genuinely Christian. Sorry..you lost.
Posts: 2986 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's a matter of education. Nobody with a liberal arts degree or even 'A' levels in English literature and history could think in such a faulty way.

Ha ha ha ...

I now await notification from Jamat and Kaplan as to what particular qualifications they have and their reactions to such 'pomposity' ...

Hmmmm. Early days I suppose. KC, like Russ, can't stoop to respond to me directly, but Jamat should.

Anybody aware of any contemporary academic or writer who thinks like them?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. You'd think that anyone with a liberal arts education or a non-savant medico-scientific one who had such an anti-intellectual, irrational hermeneutic would proclaim the cradle of their thinking and be able to find a single contemporary intellectual who agreed.

GK. I was THERE! I seen 'em. NEKKID! In the age of Aquarius. Backlit by the light of KC's Sunshine Hermeneutic!!!

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Gamaliel: the irony is, you can't see it.

The irony actually is that you lost the argument back about page 10 because you refuse to admit the implication of what you assert. You want to argue the defining power of culture, but then you deny that that argument actually excuses behaviour which in no sense ever, by any definition could be genuinely Christian. Sorry..you lost.
Nonsense.

Just because you appear unable to deal with paradox doesn't mean the rest of us can't.

Both KC and yourself ratchet everything up into such black-and-white terms that you appear unable to appreciate that the rest of us see the world in shades of grey.

If I've lost any argument it's through trying to argue with people who are colour-blind or who are unable to make out chiaroscuro because their theological lenses won't allow them to.

There is no argument to lose. You don't even have an argument.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
To return to the OP ...

What's the best strategy?

To pretend or deny that Christian individuals, groups or organisations can be capable of the most heinous wrongs?

'Oh, they couldn't possibly have been Christians in the first place ...'

Or to recognise that things can and do go badly wrong and to seek to address and redress that? Which yes, involves hermeneutics - among other things.

Both approaches work towards the same goal, which is prevention.

We may have different starting points but the same end in view at least.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

 - Posted      Profile for Jamat   Author's homepage   Email Jamat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Gamaliel: deal with paradox
Sorry Mate, this is not paradox, this is a denial of an obvious corollary of your argument.
I repeat, you lost this argument 10 pages back.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

Posts: 2986 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
...I repeat...

Sorry to selectively quote, but it does sum up a lot of this thread.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
...I repeat...

Sorry to selectively quote, but it does sum up a lot of this thread.
[Killing me]
Pretty much why I stopped bothering with it awhile ago.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17128 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
More fool me for continuing with and making 'come-backs' when it had become obvious that neither Jamat or KC are prepared to read for comprehension or even listen to alternative views.

Rather than engage with what myself and others have been trying to say they cover up their ears and go 'la la la la' whilst trying to tar me with the same binary brush they use to brush their teeth in the morning, teeth that are located in a somewhat different anatomical location to other people's.

They apparently cannot distinguish between varying degrees of social and cultural influence and conditioning from being trapped in a deterministic way by the prevailing zeitgeist.

They clearly don't understand the social and historical forces at work between the time of Charlemagne and the time of Cromwell nor those between Cromwell's time and our own.

Nor do they have any inkling of the complex processes involved in reading and interpreting texts.

Worse, because ignorance is excusable to a certain extent, they have misrepresented my arguments and twisted my words.

For that I call them both to Hell.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
They can't help it G. They are their uneducated, old, unscholarly, incorrigible hermeneutics. As a man thinketh, so is he. In grinding all grist to his mill down to chaff.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That's more deterministic than I've been accused of being, Martin60.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I should hope so G. That's why they are so forgivable. In fact there's nothing to forgive. Only understand. The wind changed a long time ago.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hmmmm ...

Well, Jamat is 'uneducated' - at least in a liberal arts type sense it seems to me. Kaplan isn't. He has less of an excuse. So yes, there are things to forgive.

Just as I've done stupid stuff too and am in need of forgiveness. Verbosity. Repetition ... even assuming certain people are capable of listening and reading for comprehension ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

 - Posted      Profile for Jamat   Author's homepage   Email Jamat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Well, Jamat is 'uneducated'
Sigh! I certainly am not prepared to be educated by you. However, I think it a mistake take anything personally. It is all just a matter of following the trail till you find the rabbit. Take a cooky. By the time you finish eating it you'll forget all about this conversation. [Smile]

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

Posts: 2986 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The problem isn't that you are unprepared to be educated by me, you are unprepared to be educated aboard Ship by anyone who doesn't hold to your untenably wooden interpretation of scripture.

Now where's the biscuit (cookie) tin?

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Hmmmm ...

Well, Jamat is 'uneducated' - at least in a liberal arts type sense it seems to me. Kaplan isn't. He has less of an excuse. So yes, there are things to forgive.

Just as I've done stupid stuff too and am in need of forgiveness. Verbosity. Repetition ... even assuming certain people are capable of listening and reading for comprehension ...

I'm sure KC has a the excuse of a conservative background like Anne Coulter: "I'm a Christian first and a mean-spirited, bigoted conservative second...". I think she gets the order wrong, but hey, don't we all. But that doesn't excuse the lack of basic intellect and any scholarship in his hermeneutic once delivered. Even Coulter wouldn't argue that absurdity.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Conservative Christianity is one thing, and I'm pretty conservative theologically, repeated failure to read for comprehension is something else again.

It was beginning to look like deliberate obfuscation and misrepresentation. Once or twice I could overlook but arguing that black = white and 2+2 = 5 isn't something I can stomach.

Hence the Hell-call.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

 - Posted      Profile for Russ   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The concept of culture has a meaning that doesn't involve statistics on the frequency of cut-throat capitalists. That's not what culture is.

Please do expand on what you think culture is, if it's not something that could conceivably be measured by statistics.

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 3073 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
For that I call them both to Hell.

If you want to post in Hell and call me names, then by all means go ahead.

Knock yourself out.

Go nuts.

May heaven speed your keyboard, and may the letting off of steam make you feel better afterwards.

You will pardon me (or perhaps you won't) if I decline to reciprocate, but I have better things to do.

It is not immediately apparent why you have become so paranoically and hyperbolically reactive, so passionately involved at a personal level over what is, when all is said and done, a fairly abstruse issue.

After all, we more or less agree on most of the points involved, but it still seems to press your buttons.

Perhaps it is an example of what Freud called "the narcissism of small differences".

Posts: 3238 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Or being driven to distraction by people who don't or can't read for comprehension and who persist in arguing a-historical points?

[Biased] [Razz]

But yes, I do feel better for having vented in Hell.

Carry on, sergeant ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Conservative Christianity is one thing, and I'm pretty conservative theologically, repeated failure to read for comprehension is something else again.

It was beginning to look like deliberate obfuscation and misrepresentation. Once or twice I could overlook but arguing that black = white and 2+2 = 5 isn't something I can stomach.

Hence the Hell-call.

Conservative how?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Conservative in the sense that I assent to the historic Creeds and believe in the Trinity, the Resurrection etc ...

Not conservative in the sense that I am a biblical literalist or fundamentalist in Jamat terms.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ah. Me too. We share the same last line in the sand.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Or line in the water?

[Biased]

I think we're probably both dotty, too.

No doubt Jamat and Kaplan will think so, bless 'em.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15529 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eliab
Host
# 9153

 - Posted      Profile for Eliab   Email Eliab   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Kaplan Corday

Since there is a Hell thread on which you could respond if you wanted to, it would be appreciated if you took either express or implied accusations of paranoia and narcissism there.

Same goes for everyone else. Hell's there so that if you want to get personal, you can. If you don't want to use that facility, fine, but then don't make personal insinuations in Purgatory.

Now that there is a Hell thread arising from this very discussion, and as posting here takes exactly as many key-presses as posting there does, there's no excuse for testing the limits of personal comment here. Take it to Hell.

Eliab
Purgatory host

--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

Posts: 4592 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Clutch
Apprentice
# 18827

 - Posted      Profile for Clutch   Email Clutch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Conservative in the sense that I assent to the historic Creeds and believe in the Trinity, the Resurrection etc ...

Not conservative in the sense that I am a biblical literalist or fundamentalist in Jamat terms.

So do I Gamaliel, but I don't consider that "conservative" Theologically speaking that's orthodox.Small o used on purpose.

--------------------
Proud liberal socialist,proud progressive Anglo-Catholic and proud to be a conservative's bane.

Posts: 21 | Registered: Aug 2017  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Or line in the water?

[Biased]

I think we're probably both dotty, too.

No doubt Jamat and Kaplan will think so, bless 'em.

Just join up the dots ....

Clutch is right of course. We're 'o'. Not 'c'!

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  22  23  24  25  26 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools