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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Bishop Peter Ball Affair
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No one is saying all, or even most, abused will abuse others. What is being said is that abusers are likely to have been abused themselves. It makes sense that some people will abuse no matter their own experience and that experience will affect the behaviour of others.
The same is thought with sociopathic behaviour.
Abusers are also likely to have looked at pornography, had consensual sex etc. Why make the point that abusers are likely to have been abused themselves if not irrelevant? I think it serves offenders who want and need to create a "poor me" and redirection of empathy as abuser is relabelled as an abuser-victim.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Hardly, and hardly an objective source. It appears to be written by the head of the abuse team at a well known and large firm of solicitors who present themselves as practising in this field. They make a point in their publicity that they are 'no win, no fee', with a list of high profile cases on their web site as an encouragement. If one knows that, then whatever the language of manufactured outrage, it's difficult not to hear the message 'come to us and we'll get you lots of lovely compo'.
Your sense of social justice is a good as Ball's and his class.
Martyn, you'll have to explain that riposte. What on earth connection are you claiming there is between social justice and aggressive marketing by litigation solicitors?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Why make the point that abusers are likely to have been abused themselves if not irrelevant?
I think it very relevant. Understanding the why could help reduce future occurrences.
quote:
I think it serves offenders who want and need to create a "poor me" and redirection of empathy as abuser is relabelled as an abuser-victim.
Sympathy? Aren't Christians suppose to have that for everyone?
I have moved from believing they should be immediately executed after conviction stance to one advocating permanent confinement. Not sure this counts as sympathy.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It is about base rates. Are you suggesting that more abusers are victims than others? Show your data. I haven't seen any that can be trusted. Everyone facing charges says they're a victim. It is excuse driven theoretical nonsense.
Straw man re sympathy for abusers. No one suggested execution except you. Start with control to prevent further harm to others. Life time monitoring would be a good start. Electronic.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It is about base rates. Are you suggesting that more abusers are victims than others?
Why are you reading more into what I've said than is there? Unless the rate of inherited abuse patterns is insignificant, then addressing it is worthwhile. And, hey, if we are wrong, fewer abused children anyway. Win!
quote:
Show your data. I haven't seen any that can be trusted. Everyone facing charges says they're a victim. It is excuse driven theoretical nonsense.
You started down this path, show your data.
quote:
Straw man re sympathy for abusers. No one suggested execution except you.
Though you said empathy instead of sympathy, you brought up the shift in feeling for the abuser rather than the victim. I am saying understanding the mechanism doesn't inherently bring mitigating feelings toward the abuser.
[ 25. June 2017, 20:46: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Unless the rate of inherited abuse patterns is insignificant, then addressing it is worthwhile. And, hey, if we are wrong, fewer abused children anyway. Win!
There is no inherited pattern of abuse; a theory without data. (I presume you don't mean genetic, rather social learning)
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There are all kinds of figures cited in different publications - I have seen 30%-40% cited, and also 70%, but they often are given in vague terms, without reference to specific statistics.
This summary seems more well-founded, and cites a figure of 12% of abusers who go on to abuse. However, it's not clear what the figure is for non-abused people. It may also ignore other factors, (confounds).
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20030206/do-sexually-abused-kids-become-abusers#1
[ 26. June 2017, 09:08: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Hardly, and hardly an objective source. It appears to be written by the head of the abuse team at a well known and large firm of solicitors who present themselves as practising in this field. They make a point in their publicity that they are 'no win, no fee', with a list of high profile cases on their web site as an encouragement. If one knows that, then whatever the language of manufactured outrage, it's difficult not to hear the message 'come to us and we'll get you lots of lovely compo'.
Your sense of social justice is a good as Ball's and his class.
Martyn, you'll have to explain that riposte. What on earth connection are you claiming there is between social justice and aggressive marketing by litigation solicitors?
It can't be made for you Enoch.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
You've still lost me, Martin. I'm going to assume there isn't a connection.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
For you there can't be.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Don't be so perverse, Martin.
Enoch, whilst I'm no apologist for Slater & Gordon's commercial model, the mere fact of them using CFAs is neither here nor there. In cases where Legal Aid or other sources of funding isn't available, CFAs are one of the few ways most people can access civil justice.
Likewise, the notion that lawyers ought not to have a view on the rightness or wrongness of an issue is mildly perverse. Perhaps not as perverse as Martin's gnomic noodlings, but still perverse.
Sexual abuse of children and adults is wrong. The failure of an institution - any institution - to hold its senior people to account, and to collude in the cover up through negligence and weakness (even if not deliberate fault) is wrong. For a lawyer specialising in this area to comment is not unreasonable, in the same way it would not be unreasonable for me to express a view on the FCA's treatment of local government pensions schemes. The only difference between the two would be that S&L's comments on the handling of sexual abuse would be important and interesting, whilst my comments on the behaviour of the FCA would be neither.
[edited to comply with reactionary bourgeois constructions of grammar and spelling]
[ 26. June 2017, 12:14: Message edited by: dyfrig ]
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This summary seems more well-founded, and cites a figure of 12% of abusers who go on to abuse. However, it's not clear what the figure is for non-abused people. It may also ignore other factors, (confounds).
This is the base rate problem I referred to above. If the Bagley Royal Commission statistic of 1 in 7 males and 1 in 4 females have experienced sexual assault, and then we look at the statistic of offenders who claim abuse in their history, if we look at men, we end up with 14% of males in the general population who've experienced abuse. pretty close to your 12%.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I was born in the 1950s so have what might be described as working knowledge of the attitudes of the 20th century. At no time was it ever considered acceptable for young people - whether male or female - to be preyed upon by adults for their sexual gratification.
John Peel is still venerated enough to have a stage named after him at Glastonbury, but wiki gives us this:
"While in Dallas, in 1965, he married his first wife, Shirley Anne Milburn, then aged 15, in what Peel later described as a "mutual defence pact". The marriage was never happy and although she accompanied Peel back to Britain in 1967, they were soon separated. The divorce became final in 1973. Shirley Anne Milburn later took her own life.[15][16]"
Likewise in the case of Jimmy Savile:
"His autobiography As it Happens (1974, reprinted as Love is an Uphill Thing, 1976) contains admissions of improper sexual conduct which appear to have passed unnoticed during his lifetime.[101]"
Or if you read Colin Dexter's Morse novel Last Seen Wearing (1976), there is a lot of reference to schoolgirls 'seducing' men.
I don't think the attitudes of the wider population are as clear cut as you might think - even more so in the 70s and 80s.
[ 26. June 2017, 16:05: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
chris stiles: quote:
I think its perfectly possible for people to be both evil, and do good. OTOH I would hesitate to call such behavior 'saintly' which to me signifies something about very deep motivation.
I want to agree with you but I'm beginning to wonder. Are there really individuals whose lives have been so transformed by the grace of God that his love consistently shines through, as thought they were stained glass? Or is that the sort of thing we tell kids in Sunday School, which sounds nice but has little relation to reality?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I want to agree with you but I'm beginning to wonder. Are there really individuals whose lives have been so transformed by the grace of God that his love consistently shines through, as thought they were stained glass?
That's really not what I was saying at all.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
chris stiles: quote:
I think its perfectly possible for people to be both evil, and do good. OTOH I would hesitate to call such behavior 'saintly' which to me signifies something about very deep motivation.
I want to agree with you but I'm beginning to wonder. Are there really individuals whose lives have been so transformed by the grace of God that his love consistently shines through, as thought they were stained glass? Or is that the sort of thing we tell kids in Sunday School, which sounds nice but has little relation to reality?
I think that the answer to this is "yes", but I think that people who have committed sexual abuse do not come under this heading even if people once thought that they did. I've met people who I would describe in those terms I've also met people who have been convicted on charges of sexual abuse. I illustrate the interaction between the two with a Venn diagram.
Saintly People: O O: Sex Abusers
[ 26. June 2017, 19:13: Message edited by: Callan ]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
A chap I know, convicted a few years ago of 'inappropriate touching' of young women (no children involved) has been far more of a Good Samaritan to me than our then-priest-in-charge, Father Fuckwit, who, on realising that I was ill, and incapable of covering up his inept 'ministry', duly passed by on the other side of the road. No message from him for the best part of 18 months, despite my being close to death on at least two occasions.
Yet it is Father Fuckwit who, in his LinkedIn profile, describes one of his 'strengths' as being 'pastoral care'.
Truly, there's no art to find the mind's construction i'the face (King Duncan, in the Scottish Play).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Or if you read Colin Dexter's Morse novel Last Seen Wearing (1976), there is a lot of reference to schoolgirls 'seducing' men.
It is possible for schoolgirls to seduce adult men. This doesn't stop it being sexual assault on the part of the adult man, if he succumbs to a schoolgirl's advances.
It's not either-or. We accept that schoolchildren seduce each other, and if it is consensual we tend to deem it wiser for the law not to get involved.
A schoolchild who is capable of deciding to seduce another schoolchild is equally capable of deciding to seduce an adult.
The adult's job is to say no.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
When I was in college I had a very close friend who I would have trusted with my life. There was no doubt in my mind of his essential goodness and decency. We lost contact after college, and the next thing I heard of him he was being accused, tried, and convicted on charges of sexually abusing children.
People are complicated, and complex.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So safeguard. If something can go wrong, it will. If the saintliest saint to wear a wizard's outfit and pray two and three quarter hours before breakfast is left alone with a cookie jar ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
When I was in college I had a very close friend who I would have trusted with my life. There was no doubt in my mind of his essential goodness and decency. We lost contact after college, and the next thing I heard of him he was being accused, tried, and convicted on charges of sexually abusing children.
People are complicated, and complex.
I don't think a DBS (Disclosure and Baring Service) check would pick up Fred & Rosemary West before they were caught. Which kind of illustrates why reporting and not covering up is so important.
Unless we have Minority Report stile Pre-cogs the perps will get through. Cleaning up is more than just tiding up the aftermath.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It's not either-or. We accept that schoolchildren seduce each other, and if it is consensual we tend to deem it wiser for the law not to get involved.
Perhaps this acceptance is a problem. Children have an expectation for sex. There were kids at school who shagged each other in my day ( I didn't make it to sixth form btw). There was still an expectation for marriage lingering on even if it was a of an illusion.
[/QB]The adult's job is to say no. [/QB][/QUOTE] Perhaps adults have another job: to educate the young about having sex in the context of a long term loving relationship.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Perhaps adults have another job: to educate the young about having sex in the context of a long term loving relationship.
No. A responsible relationship. The teaching needs to be devoid of a moral code that they may choose to not follow. Jesus wants you to wait is void if they decide they do not believe. Or they come to the logical conclusion that Jesus is not quite as uptight as their parents or school.
Teach objective reasoning and that will carry through better than adherence to an arbitrary code.
ETA: Adding your own moral code in addition is fine. But if it is the basis, it will more likely fail.
[ 26. June 2017, 21:34: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It is possible for schoolgirls to seduce adult men. This doesn't stop it being sexual assault on the part of the adult man, if he succumbs to a schoolgirl's advances.
You might want to examine your assumptions and consider a frame of reference check. The perspective of the adult man is that it is seduction. It is the sort of thing which is called a "rape myth". I do not accept the phraseology "succumb to a schoolgirl's advances". If he does not know that this is a line that shall never be crossed, he shall not work with school children. It is unacceptable to interpret friendly behaviour or developing sexuality in teens as meaning they want to seduce or have sex. Friendliness and affection even if displayed as sexual, just isn't. Not.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It is possible for schoolgirls to seduce adult men. This doesn't stop it being sexual assault on the part of the adult man, if he succumbs to a schoolgirl's advances.
You might want to examine your assumptions and consider a frame of reference check. The perspective of the adult man is that it is seduction. It is the sort of thing which is called a "rape myth". I do not accept the phraseology "succumb to a schoolgirl's advances". If he does not know that this is a line that shall never be crossed, he shall not work with school children. It is unacceptable to interpret friendly behaviour or developing sexuality in teens as meaning they want to seduce or have sex. Friendliness and affection even if displayed as sexual, just isn't. Not.
This.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
You might want to examine your assumptions and consider a frame of reference check.
You might want to read what I actually wrote.
quote:
The perspective of the adult man is that it is seduction. It is the sort of thing which is called a "rape myth". I do not accept the phraseology "succumb to a schoolgirl's advances".
OK, let's take this really slowly, and perhaps you'll get it.
Some subset of teenage kids have sex with other teenage kids. Another subset would like to have sex, but have been unable to persuade anyone they find attractive to have sex with them.
There are teenagers, of both sexes, who want sex. There are teenagers going around seducing other teenagers. This happens, and we mostly consider it not worthwhile attempting to prosecute horny consenting 15 year olds.
Now suppose you have one of these horny teenagers, and he or she becomes infatuated with an adult - perhaps a schoolteacher, camp counselor, or similar. This happens.
Having agreed that horny teenagers often attempt to seduce other teenagers, you must be able to stretch your imagination and imagine that an infatuated teenager might attempt to seduce an adult with whom he or she had become infatuated.
Again, this is a thing that happens.
And, like I said in my earlier post, it is the job of the adult to say no.
quote:
If he does not know that this is a line that shall never be crossed, he shall not work with school children.
Yes, of course. That's why I said "it is the job of the adult to say no".
quote:
It is unacceptable to interpret friendly behaviour or developing sexuality in teens as meaning they want to seduce or have sex. Friendliness and affection even if displayed as sexual, just isn't. Not.
But sometimes, and this is the thing that you seem to find difficult to grasp, the teens actually do want to have sex.
And that doesn't change anything. It is the job of the adult to say no. If the adult doesn't say no, he or she commits sexual assault.
But trying to imagine that kids never want sex is absurd. Teenagers are perfectly capable of wanting to have sex with adults. And, once again, it's up to the adult to day "no".
[ 27. June 2017, 02:15: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Perhaps adults have another job: to educate the young about having sex in the context of a long term loving relationship.
No. A responsible relationship. The teaching needs to be devoid of a moral code that they may choose to not follow. Jesus wants you to wait is void if they decide they do not believe. Or they come to the logical conclusion that Jesus is not quite as uptight as their parents or school.
Teach objective reasoning and that will carry through better than adherence to an arbitrary code.
ETA: Adding your own moral code in addition is fine. But if it is the basis, it will more likely fail.
. 'Responsibility' is probably as hard to get over as 'love' for a teenager. I never mentioned 'Jesus' or 'God'. Objective reasoning + hormones = ?.
I wouldn't want to use biblical examples for love and relationships. Most of them were complete fuck ups- Polygamists, prostitution, adultery, concubines, seed spilling, fertility gods of Asheroth and Baal and not forgetting Pauls outrage at the Corinthians cultural equivalent of paedophilia "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife."
On the subject of saintliness and being a sexual fuck up- those guilty of the above include Abraham, Isaac, David, Solomon, Samson just about all the kings of the Kingdom of Israel and probably most of Judah's too. Rahab the prostitute who hid the spies sent to Jericho (like they just went to her to hide ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ) is in Jesus genealogy and Esther who was little more than a child when she was pretty much enslaved in a harem but was used by God to save the nation. So God does use those imperfect people and they are they still recorded as spiritual heroes.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
True, but you remind me of a pastor I once knew who wrote an entire book explaining his decision to abandon his wife, run off with his secretary, and have a child with her - by holding up David and Bathsheba as justification.
Don't confuse grace after the fact with precedent.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
True, but you remind me of a pastor I once knew who wrote an entire book explaining his decision to abandon his wife, run off with his secretary, and have a child with her - by holding up David and Bathsheba as justification.
Don't confuse grace after the fact with precedent.
I guess I wouldn't ask him to run a marriage guidance course.
Seriously, if we can't be open in church about our failings without fear of being shamed, how are victims of predatory abusers, who are likely to feel very shamed about what was done to them, come forward?
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It is possible for schoolgirls to seduce adult men. This doesn't stop it being sexual assault on the part of the adult man, if he succumbs to a schoolgirl's advances.
It's not either-or. We accept that schoolchildren seduce each other, and if it is consensual we tend to deem it wiser for the law not to get involved.
A schoolchild who is capable of deciding to seduce another schoolchild is equally capable of deciding to seduce an adult.
The adult's job is to say no.
There's an inherent jump in your first paragraph from advances to seduction. It is quite possible for a young prepubescent girl to make sexual advances to a man. Sadly there have been cases here when children, boys and girls, as young as 9 have been so sexualised by years of horrific abuse that they do not understand what they are doing and treat it as normal behaviour. So you have the advances. It is not an attempt at seduction; if the man responds to the advances, then it is he who is seducing the child.
I don't agree with your second paragraph either. The law does disapprove of sexual behaviour between under-age children. There may be some cases when both children are very close to the age of consent that those enforcing the law decide that effort is better spent elsewhere. There's a big difference. And BTW, it is not consensual in any sense for under-age children as they are incapable of giving consent.
[ 27. June 2017, 07:17: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The point I was trying to make is that these views were mainstream in the 1970s and still exist to a limited in the present.
So absolute statements saying - there was never a time when this was acceptable are just not true.
It is not that anyone ever said sexual exploitation / rape is OK - it is that they made exceptions, excuses and less stigmatising descriptions that had the effect of of semi-legitimising the behaviour. And there existed/s a strain of 'humour' that completely trivialised the molestation and rape of males. For a start many didn't believe an unwilling male could be raped, and secondly - how many jokes have you heard about being buggered in public schools, not bending over for the soap, fiddling with choirboys ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
There's an inherent jump in your first paragraph from advances to seduction. It is quite possible for a young prepubescent girl to make sexual advances to a man.
The whole discussion has been about sexually active teens. There's no need to bring prepubescent girls into the discussion at all.
And that's a difference. Horny teens are entirely capable of attempting to seduce other people, and if you're capable of attempting to seduce another horny teen, you're also capable of trying to seduce an adult.
quote:
I don't agree with your second paragraph either. The law does disapprove of sexual behaviour between under-age children. There may be some cases when both children are very close to the age of consent that those enforcing the law decide that effort is better spent elsewhere.
It is entirely normal and usual for the law not to attempt to prosecute 14 and 15 year olds who are having sex.
quote:
There's a big difference. And BTW, it is not consensual in any sense for under-age children as they are incapable of giving consent.
Yes, under-age children cannot give legal consent, but it is a nonsense to claim that "it is not consensual in any sense".
If two 15-year-olds have "consensual" sex, then although it is technically illegal, the law will ignore them. (Yes, the Home Office in the UK has issued guidance to do exactly that).
If one 15-year-old is held down and raped by another 15-year-old, the attacker will be prosecuted for rape.
This is the sense in which consent exists for children.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Perhaps I should have said "even a prepubescent child" to make my meaning even clearer.
14 and 15 year old children here may very well be charged for engaging in non-violent sexual behaviour. I can't speak of the UK, but an Attorney-General should never make or approve a statement along the lines you set forth.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It is not that anyone ever said sexual exploitation / rape is OK - it is that they made exceptions, excuses and less stigmatising descriptions that had the effect of of semi-legitimising the behaviour. And there existed/s a strain of 'humour' that completely trivialised the molestation and rape of males. For a start many didn't believe an unwilling male could be raped, and secondly - how many jokes have you heard about being buggered in public schools, not bending over for the soap, fiddling with choirboys ?
Yes. At the independent boys' school I went to there were plenty of teachers whose doubtful sexual proclivities were widely rumoured. In retrospect, this served as a sort of warning system to the more alert pupils, but also trivialised highly doubtful behaviour.
One really creepy art teacher was sacked after allegedly having been found in bed with a pupil, but I don't know if charges were ever pressed. On the other hand, the deputy head regularly entertained a small cohort of blond-haired, blue-eyed contemporaries of mine in his office behind closed doors during lunch hours for no obvious reason other than him thinking they were rather cute.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of all this, the lines were very definitely drawn differently back then.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, everybody I know operated on a common sense basis - keep yer 'and on yer 'a'p'ny, which was sadly lacking in Ball's case.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
...
So my impression is that reasonable people could have considered that concerns about child abuse were a matter of moral panic.
I've come late to this and this post isn't really about this case as such, so consider it a tangent if you like.
ISTM that when considering cover-ups or ignoring of abuse of boys or young men by older men in the C20, we need to remember that the assumption that if you were gay you couldn't be trusted with children- still, I'm afraid, around a bit today- was much more prevalent then. I have a theory that this may have contributed in some cases to decent people discounting rumours of child abuse that they had heard about someone they knew was gay, precisely because they *were* decent people and wanted to distance themselves from what they quite rightly in many cases would have seen as prejudiced stereotyping. As I say I don't know whether that applied in the Ball case but I can imagine it would have applied to someone like Peter Morrison MP, who was known to be gay, about whom rumours did circulate, and after whose death it turned out that those rumours may well have been well founded.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Eutychus: quote:
True, but you remind me of a pastor I once knew who wrote an entire book explaining his decision to abandon his wife, run off with his secretary, and have a child with her - by holding up David and Bathsheba as justification.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) So he was OK with the idea of God zapping his grandchildren for his sins?
I hope his secretary wasn't married to a general...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Horny teens are entirely capable of attempting to seduce other people, and if you're capable of attempting to seduce another horny teen, you're also capable of trying to seduce an adult.
Your use of the terms "seduce" and "seduction" are problematic. It places the behavioural initiation and activity within the teenager, and avoids the interactive behaviour of the adult. That an adult may interpret the social behaviour and even sexualized behaviour or a teen as "seduction" frames this wrongly. Nor does horniness mean that the teen wants sex; sexuality is many things, sometimes a seeking of support, affection, approval, and may not in fact be formed as a goal-directed seeking of genital-focussed sex as played out with an adult who may respond in ways that reinforce the interaction as seduction.
We're currently reviewing it all in my diocese. Language and analysis as you're posted isn't current, nor considered appropriate. At all.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The point I was trying to make is that these views were mainstream in the 1970s and still exist to a limited in the present.
So absolute statements saying - there was never a time when this was acceptable are just not true.
It is not that anyone ever said sexual exploitation / rape is OK - it is that they made exceptions, excuses and less stigmatising descriptions that had the effect of of semi-legitimising the behaviour. And there existed/s a strain of 'humour' that completely trivialised the molestation and rape of males. For a start many didn't believe an unwilling male could be raped, and secondly - how many jokes have you heard about being buggered in public schools, not bending over for the soap, fiddling with choirboys ?
Except if it happened to your daughter or son.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
So are you saying that it is impossible for a teen to want to/to seduce an adult? That seems to be the burden of your comments. That in every possible case, the teen can only have innocent intentions?
Because as I see it, the position you seem to be arguing against is only that in some cases, possibly the tiniest minority of cases, the teen in question may possibly have a desire to seduce the adult. WHich as everyone has said, does not excuse the adult if he or she responds.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Speaking here as a former teenager with a pretty good memory of what it was like, it is certainly possible for a teenager to want to seduce an adult. I agree, it is the adult's responsibility to refuse.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Horny teens are entirely capable of attempting to seduce other people, and if you're capable of attempting to seduce another horny teen, you're also capable of trying to seduce an adult.
Your use of the terms "seduce" and "seduction" are problematic. It places the behavioural initiation and activity within the teenager, and avoids the interactive behaviour of the adult. That an adult may interpret the social behaviour and even sexualized behaviour or a teen as "seduction" frames this wrongly. Nor does horniness mean that the teen wants sex; sexuality is many things, sometimes a seeking of support, affection, approval, and may not in fact be formed as a goal-directed seeking of genital-focussed sex as played out with an adult who may respond in ways that reinforce the interaction as seduction.
We're currently reviewing it all in my diocese. Language and analysis as you're posted isn't current, nor considered appropriate. At all.
To be perfectly honest, if you want to discourage sexual activity in your diocese, keep on discussing it in the terms you've used here. A couple of sentences of that and people will have forgotten what they wanted to do and just glazed over.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I want to agree with you but I'm beginning to wonder. Are there really individuals whose lives have been so transformed by the grace of God that his love consistently shines through, as thought they were stained glass?
That's really not what I was saying at all.
My apologies Chris. I was conflating what you wrote with a train of thought I'm struggling with - how can "bad" people do "good" things (or vica versa).
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
how can "bad" people do "good" things (or vica versa).
Because most people are a mix. Most of us are selfish, but not heartless.
Thinking of people being good or bad misses the nature of being human. We are not homogeneous mixes that can then be measured against a scale; we are rather a concrete,¹ the strength of which depends on the elements within and what it is tested against.
¹a coalition of particles formed into one solid mass
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
"the world is not divided into nice people and Death Eaters, Harry"
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
"the world is not divided into nice people and Death Eaters, Harry"
From the Book of Azkaban
Praise be to Rowling
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Robert Armin, see my post above for a person who did much good when I knew him, and much bad later on. It's just how people are. Very few, if any, are total monsters, and even saints aren't all sweetness and light.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Oh dear.
Just when it might be thought that the Peter Ball affair had moved to the back of the pack, Andrew Carey - with a little (possibly malicious) help from a clueless headline writer in The Times has now resurrected the whole thing, and perhaps alienated the few people who might have been inclined to offer Lord Carey some support or comfort. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/criticism-of-my-father-is-an-unforgivable-sin-says-son-of-lord-carey-of-clifton-forme r-archbishop-of-canterbury-f85l6789f
It is natural that a child would wish to offer a loved father help and support, but to suggest in so doing that the sexual abuse of minors was ever condoned or defensible is plain wrong and, if in itself supported by people now, can only add to the widely held viewpoint that the mores governing parts of the CofE then and now are grotesque.
When walking in the vicinity of a hornets nest the best course of action is to tread softly and avoid disturbance, not jam a bl**dy great stick into its middle.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Er - the article (apart from the first few lines) is protected by a paywall, so can't read it.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
<post redacted pending admin appraisal>
[ 04. July 2017, 11:52: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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arse
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