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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Our Lady's marriage
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I can understand Shippies getting that impression but I'd suggest that it is particular forms of evangelicalism that come in for some stick rather than evangelicalism per se - despite the accusations Kaplan Corday has levelled at me in that regard.
Putting it crudely, I've often clashed with Jamat on these boards but have hardly ever clashed with Cliffdweller and her brand of evangelicalism.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm no evangelical. Unless you count the German evangelische that marks a Lutheran.
So you're not ELCA? Or are you saying the ELCA isn't Evangelical?
Why the hell bring the ELCA into it? To the best of my knowledge, they fall even less under the rubric of "evangelical" (small e) than I do.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can understand Shippies getting that impression but I'd suggest that it is particular forms of evangelicalism that come in for some stick rather than evangelicalism per se - despite the accusations Kaplan Corday has levelled at me in that regard.
Putting it crudely, I've often clashed with Jamat on these boards but have hardly ever clashed with Cliffdweller and her brand of evangelicalism.
What's causing me to finally boil over after umpty years is the near-constant negatives in a you-all-know-it tone that would never fly for a moment if anybody tried it against, say, Orthodoxy, Islam, Roman Catholicism, Buddhism... Truly, to read the Ship nowadays, if I didn't know better, I'd assume the evangelicals were some sort of strange cult and no part of the church of Christ.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
however it seems to me that it is clearly true that Evangelicals are much more of a target here than others are.
Again I disagree. ISTM, there are issues that are associated with evangelicals that are targeted, and people who are associated with evangelicalism whose ideas are lambasted. But I do not think evangelicals as a whole are. At most, there are assumptions that evangelicals are more homogeneous than they are. quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What's causing me to finally boil over after umpty years is the near-constant negatives in a you-all-know-it tone that would never fly for a moment if anybody tried it against, say, Orthodoxy, Islam, Roman Catholicism, Buddhism... Truly, to read the Ship nowadays, if I didn't know better, I'd assume the evangelicals were some sort of strange cult and no part of the church of Christ.
- Orthodoxy - Hardly discussed at all, any more. Not since Squiggly Andrew imploded and the odious twerp I shall not name left.
- Islam - generally only discussed following racist claims; no Muslim shipmates, AFAIK, to discuss it proper.
- RCC - WTF? The most picked on group in my time here on the Ship. Partly due to IngoB's style, perhaps, but hardly defended by non-RCC by Shipmates in general.
- Buddhism - Too few of you know enough about it and/or encounter it in the wild for this to be an issue wither way.
Again. Certain Ideas, associated with evangelicals are not extremely popular on the ship.
And, again, this does not mean Evangelicalism is the target.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I agree with lilBuddha again. I also get the impression that the high-water mark of anti-evangelicalism aboard Ship - except perhaps on some of the DH threads - receded a number of years ago.
I suspect the cumulative effect that Lamb Chopped refers to is the result of a slow-burn not a conflagration.
My comments on evangelicalism on this thread have been pretty mild IMHO and I've been careful not to be broad-brush. I've been a lot harsher about aspects of evangelicalism in the past.
This is the Magazine of Christian Unrest. If I were RC I'd be unrestful about that. If I were Buddhist I'd be unrestful about the way some Buddhists are apparently behaving in Burma. If I were Orthodox I'd darn well be bloody fucking unrestful and no mistake about phyletism, anti-Semitism, anti-ecumenusm and the kissing of Putin's arse as if it were a holy icon.
Anyone would think I break into evangelical homes at night and piss all over their Bible study notes or teach liturgical prayers to their children ...
Keep things in proportion already.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Nevertheless the "boo hoo this ship hates Evangelicals" schtick is fucking annoying.
I see that - but at the same time I think a big part of the problem is that people are talking past each other and getting frustrated because the "other" - which is often the Evangelical - refuses to conform to the expectations of the discussion.
I don't see my role here as defending Evangelicals, however it seems to me that it is clearly true that Evangelicals are much more of a target here than others are. So it might be a "schtick", but it is also an accurate schtick.
Nobody is attacking anybody on this thread.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm no evangelical. Unless you count the German evangelische that marks a Lutheran.
So you're not ELCA? Or are you saying the ELCA isn't Evangelical?
The ELCA is "evangelical" in the original sense of the word as the term favored by Luther for his gospel-centered reforms. It essentially meant Protestant, or Lutheran Protestant as opposed to Reformed. It is not the same as the more common modern usage.
And I believe that LC is Missouri Synod.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anyone would think I break into evangelical homes at night and piss all over their Bible study notes...
...I thought those were tea stains!
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ha ha ...
I'm British of course, so tea would make up a large proportion of the chemical constitution of my wee-wee ...
As for my ah-ahs and my farts ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Nevertheless the "boo hoo this ship hates Evangelicals" schtick is fucking annoying.
If you are claiming that evangelicalism is not targetted on the Ship more than other Christian traditions, then you are being disingenuous.
If you don't like evangelicals drawing attention to it, then you face the same alternatives as evangelicals when faced with something they don't like on the Ship - which is to piss off or live with it.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anyone would think I break into evangelical homes at night and piss all over their Bible study notes
You realise that this makes them very hard to light as kindling starters when we conduct our regular burning of heretics.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
A thread starting with a simple question to which the simple and rational answer is 'no' develops into a 5 pager with Christians at each-other's thoats....again.
Just what is it about this Faith that enrages people so?
Think it might actually have given me an idea for a new thread
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Isn't the centre of gravity for Evanglicalism the Bible?
The Bible is the centre of gravity for all Christians, whether they admit it or not.
No - for centuries, people couldn't read. Even since the reformation, only a small per centage of Christians read the bible.
Good point in there. Most people's "bible belief" is really what their priest/pastor/bishop/etc. had told them the bible says.
It still is.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Isn't the centre of gravity for Evanglicalism the Bible?
The Bible is the centre of gravity for all Christians, whether they admit it or not.
No - for centuries, people couldn't read. Even since the reformation, only a small per centage of Christians read the bible.
People who couldn't read the Bible for themselves had it read to them in church. What was read was selected, but it included what are considered the most important passages.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anyone would think I break into evangelical homes at night and piss all over their Bible study notes
You realise that this makes them very hard to light as kindling starters when we conduct our regular burning of heretics.
Which is precisely why I do it. If I didn't you evangelical bastards would be burning every 'heretic' in sight ...
No, wait, I said I wasn't doing it ...
On a more serious note, if evangelicalism comes in for some stick on these boards, so what?
This is the Magazine of Christian Unrest not The Evangelicalism Appreciation Society.
What am I supposed to do? Start a, 'Why Orthodoxy Sucks' thread or 'Why Liberals should Sod Off' or 'Why Roman Catholics Are The Spawn Of Satan' thread just to make you feel better and not to hurt your previous ickle feelings?
Come on, Kaplan. You can do better than that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Gamaliel can be a complete pain in the butt, but he is nothing if not conciliatory.
Many, many moons ago when I first boarded the Ship I created a thread in which I invited people to list things they liked and admired about traditions / Traditions other than their own.
I might well do the same again.
While I'm at it, I might list those things I admire and treasure from the evangelical tradition that has - for better or worse - shaped my own spiritual development.
I am more than willing and more than happy to acknowledge the debt I owe to evangelicalism per se and to individual evangelicals.
At its core, evangelicalism embodies a concern for the Gospel and that has to be good, however we cut it.
I can understand how I irritate people with what they see as digs and side-swipes and I'll resolve not to do that - and if I lapse, to balance them out with positives.
What I won't do, though, is pretend that all in the evangelical garden is rosy nor will I overlook those areas where I feel - from experience and theological reflection - that evangelicalism is 'wanting' in some respect or to some degree or other.
I can't say fairer than that.
What's wrong with that, for goodness sake?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Nevertheless the "boo hoo this ship hates Evangelicals" schtick is fucking annoying.
If you are claiming that evangelicalism is not targetted on the Ship more than other Christian traditions, then you are being disingenuous.
If you don't like evangelicals drawing attention to it, then you face the same alternatives as evangelicals when faced with something they don't like on the Ship - which is to piss off or live with it.
Exhibit A.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I see that - but at the same time I think a big part of the problem is that people are talking past each other and getting frustrated because the "other" - which is often the Evangelical - refuses to conform to the expectations of the discussion.
I don't see my role here as defending Evangelicals, however it seems to me that it is clearly true that Evangelicals are much more of a target here than others are. So it might be a "schtick", but it is also an accurate schtick.
Nobody is attacking anybody on this thread.
No - but the phenomena goes beyond whether an individual is being attacked.
I think that when Evangelicals make wild claims here, they're understandably taken to task by others. Fair enough.
But I'm mostly talking about the phenomena by which Evangelicals are very often portrayed as the "other extreme" in many different discussions, often using generalisations and pointing at examples that have very little to do with anyone else on the ship.
That seems to me to be a problem. It isn't just that the Evangelicals are vocal and so everyone else is playing wack-a-mole against endless pointless Evangelical attacks. It seems to be almost that we've - collectively - got Evangelicals on the brain to such an extent that we can't help bringing them into a discussion.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I suspect it's simply because many of us come from evangelical backgrounds and have been gradually moving away from that. Also, some of us have been hurt by certain experiences within evangelicalism.
Of course, other Shippies have had similar experiences with other traditons / Traditions.
FWIW my own experience of evangelicalism has been mixed - and I greatly value aspects of it. Which is one reason why I've started a fresh thread to celebrate what I admire about the various traditions I've encountered.
I can certainly see what mr cheesy is saying but I'm afraid I think Kaplan is being a tad hyper-sensitive. Perhaps if he reads what I've written on my new thread he'll be mollified.
Mousethief has been celebrating aspects of evangelicalism there too.
Alongside positive observations about other traditions.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
fwiw, as an evangelical I only rarely feel "targeted" on the Ship. Occasionally I'll feel like I'm being branded with some evangelical stereotype, but even then I can usually recognize a fair number of my evangelical brethren in the stereotype-- iow, we brought it on ourselves. But I find I'm critiqued for my own rhetorical shortcomings more often than I am for those of my fellow evangelicals.
The "ex-evangelical" thing Gamaliel points out is really found in "ex" anything. In my own evangelical circles I find lots of "ex-Catholics" who are the most vigorous Catholic-bashers around. When someone leaves a tradition they do so for a reason, and often that reason becomes solidified as a broad generalization that polarizes and makes it difficult to appreciate the gifts of that experience. My own story is probably the opposite trajectory of many here-- I was raised in liberal mainline Protestantism, the "social gospel" version popular in suburban US circa 1970s, then came to faith in American evangelicalism. It was decades before I was able to move beyond the stereotype of "spiritually empty, hopelessly libertarian" liberal Protestantism to appreciate the ways that heritage shaped my views of justice and compassion.
Another "real thing" is the way it's much more comfortable to critique a tradition from within. Most of the stereotypes or critiques of evangelicalism I've heard in this forum are things I've said myself or have ranted about in other, more evangelical forums. When I'm discussing these flaws with fellow evangelicals we can go off in far harsher and more strident tones than anything I've heard here, and it never rankles. Yet every now and then someone on the Ship will make a similar observation that will cut me to the quick. It's like the way you can mock your parents mercilessly with your siblings but the minute someone outside the family disses your mom they're headed for trouble.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Isn't the centre of gravity for Evanglicalism the Bible?
The Bible is the centre of gravity for all Christians, whether they admit it or not.
No - for centuries, people couldn't read. Even since the reformation, only a small per centage of Christians read the bible.
People who couldn't read the Bible for themselves had it read to them in church. What was read was selected, but it included what are considered the most important passages.
Moo
Just as many evangelicals only know the bits of scripture that appear on Powerpoint in their services.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Just as many evangelicals only know the bits of scripture that appear on Powerpoint in their services.
Given that many - possibly most - Evangelical churches promote and value personal bible study, I'd think that's unlikely to be very many people.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Just as many evangelicals only know the bits of scripture that appear on Powerpoint in their services.
Given that many - possibly most - Evangelical churches promote and value personal bible study, I'd think that's unlikely to be very many people.
IME, this equates to personal bible study within the context of the leadership's guidance.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IME, this equates to personal bible study within the context of the leadership's guidance.
I think that depends on the church. Some are notes prepared by the leader, some "encourage" the use of particular notes produced by others, some make no particular issue about which notes are used.
I'd agree that this doesn't necessarily mean that there is wide reading - and depending on the notes and/or the church there may well be a narrow focus. But it clearly isn't the case for many/most Evangelicals that the only bible they're reading is from the powerpoint slides. That's an exaggeration too far.
Also, y'know, encouraging people to open their bibles alone always runs the risk that they'll read something they're not supposed to..
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Also, y'know, encouraging people to open their bibles alone always runs the risk that they'll read something they're not supposed to..
Or interpret it "incorrectly". More seriously, the Bible does need guidance to be read properly. Not as in 'This you must believe', but as in the history, the cultures and languages.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anyone would think I break into evangelical homes at night and piss all over their Bible study notes
Are you sure you're not posting this as a means of covert boasting that as a middle-aged man, you are still capable of peeing copiously at will?
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
That seems to me to be a problem. It isn't just that the Evangelicals are vocal and so everyone else is playing wack-a-mole against endless pointless Evangelical attacks. It seems to be almost that we've - collectively - got Evangelicals on the brain to such an extent that we can't help bringing them into a discussion.
YOu must read a bunch of different threads than I do. I can't remember the last time evangelicals got dragged into a discussion that had nothing to do with them. The most recent thread about PSA talks about Evangelicals because PSA is an Evangelical bugbear, or at least is a sine qua non for many an Evangelical. I'm trying to think of another thread where Evangelicalism got dragged up.
Maybe one of the Trump threads, but that's pretty understandable given the role that Evangelicals played in his election, and how he is driving a wedge in Evangelical-land between his evo supporters and his evo detractors. Indeed I think if that doesn't get sorted out, "Evangelical" is going to be a dirty word in the United States for decades, as John Pavlovich and other anti-Trump Evangelicals have warned.
_________________
*without which not
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Also, y'know, encouraging people to open their bibles alone always runs the risk that they'll read something they're not supposed to..
Some American Evangelicals might realize Jesus likes the poor, not the rich. Is that what you mean?
This is an unnecessary swipe against non-evo and particularly non-prot churches. Back atcha.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Also, y'know, encouraging people to open their bibles alone always runs the risk that they'll read something they're not supposed to..
Some American Evangelicals might realize Jesus likes the poor, not the rich. Is that what you mean?
This is an unnecessary swipe against non-evo and particularly non-prot churches. Back atcha.
I thought the line was either they are poor because they are not good enough to be rich or that Jesus sooo loves the poor, he is keeping them that way.
Jesus loves the rich so much he invented the Eye of the Needle for them to squeeze through. It has to be an invention of god, because the ancient Hebrews seem to have forgotten to install them.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anyone would think I break into evangelical homes at night and piss all over their Bible study notes
You need to realise that your practice (or fantasy, if you have not yet actually done it) of surreptitious nocturnal urination on religious material is almost certainly a recognised condition, and probably listed in Havelock Ellis or Krafft-Ebing.
Help is surely available - but only when you have reached the point of acknowledging that you need it.
(Your post is gold, Gamaliel; I'm just getting started...)
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anyone would think I break into evangelical homes at night and piss all over their Bible study notes
You need to realise that your practice (or fantasy, if you have not yet actually done it) of surreptitious nocturnal urination on religious material is almost certainly a recognised condition, and probably listed in Havelock Ellis or Krafft-Ebing.
Help is surely available - but only when you have reached the point of acknowledging that you need it.
(Your post is gold, Gamaliel; I'm just getting started...)
"Gold" as in "golden shower"?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Blimey! Look what I started with my unnecessarily scatological comments ...
Perhaps I ought to add to the 'What do you admire ...' thread something about admiration for Martin Luther's scatological jibes.
He was a master at that.
'The Pope speaks out of the same orifice with which he farts ...'
And so on.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Blimey! Look what I started with my unnecessarily scatological comments ...
Perhaps I ought to add to the 'What do you admire ...' thread something about admiration for Martin Luther's scatological jibes.
He was a master at that.
'The Pope speaks out of the same orifice with which he farts ...'
And so on.
The inventor and founder of convertitis.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
And the connection to Our Lady's marriage is . . .?
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There's been a long-running tangent, Eirenist, about tradition vs Tradition ... so I've created some new threads to address those issues.
It hasn't stopped the tangent from rumbling along though ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Just as many evangelicals only know the bits of scripture that appear on Powerpoint in their services.
Given that many - possibly most - Evangelical churches promote and value personal bible study, I'd think that's unlikely to be very many people.
A study of the use of the Bible in a very large house church near me suggests otherwise.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A study of the use of the Bible in a very large house church near me suggests otherwise.
The house church near you is not all - or even representative of most - evangelicals.
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arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Indeed.
In fairness to leo, I'd agree that biblical literacy among certain types of house-church isn't what it used to be or what it is across evangelicalism per se, but I think it's an exaggeration to suggest that evangelicals as a whole tend to imbibe their scriptures and theology from the few key verses they see on PowerPoint slides.
I think the worst we can say is that they paint with a limited palette.
On the whole I'd suggest that the average evangelical in the pews or the plastic chairs still knows a fair deal of scripture, even if they mightn't be able to weave it into a coherent theological framework.
It's all relative and it depends on what yardstick you're using.
If I were to compare the level of scriptural knowledge - rather than application - between the evangelical Anglican parish and the liberal catholic Anglican parish here then the evangelical one would win hands-down.
There are individuals at the liberal parish who are quite sophisticated theologically but by and large they aren't as far as I can tell. Their vicar tells me that too. She tells me that many of them don't even have a basic grasp of the overall trajectory of the Christian narrative, let alone anything else.
The evangelicals certainly have that, even if their understanding is pretty black and white.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Blimey! Look what I started with my unnecessarily scatological comments ...
Perhaps I ought to add to the 'What do you admire ...' thread something about admiration for Martin Luther's scatological jibes.
He was a master at that.
'The Pope speaks out of the same orifice with which he farts ...'
And so on.
The inventor and founder of convertitis.
You're thinking of Jesus.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Blimey! Look what I started with my unnecessarily scatological comments ...
Perhaps I ought to add to the 'What do you admire ...' thread something about admiration for Martin Luther's scatological jibes.
He was a master at that.
'The Pope speaks out of the same orifice with which he farts ...'
And so on.
The inventor and founder of convertitis.
You're thinking of Jesus.
Oh really? What did Jesus convert to?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Blimey! Look what I started with my unnecessarily scatological comments ...
Perhaps I ought to add to the 'What do you admire ...' thread something about admiration for Martin Luther's scatological jibes.
He was a master at that.
'The Pope speaks out of the same orifice with which he farts ...'
And so on.
The inventor and founder of convertitis.
You're thinking of Jesus.
Oh really? What did Jesus convert to?
If "convertitis" is meant to describe a prioritisation of the need for conversion, then no-one exhibited it more than Jesus, who required it of everyone except himself.
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
If "convertitis" is meant to describe a prioritisation of the need for conversion, then no-one exhibited it more than Jesus, who required it of everyone except himself.
I think it's meaning (here) is the state of the convert and the counter-intuitive prejudices they can show (particularly in relation to their old faith/belief and the new one).
In that sense Paul could be argued to be a potential good case. I don't think he'd be very impressed by statues of the 10C, which some parts of the church are a bit more relaxed about now, and Peter who had a slower journey probably would be more so, also. With good and bad consequences.
Though it is a bit subjective. For a start obviously the fact that they converted shows that they hold the relative merits of the one to the other. It's when it goes beyond that. And deciding that requires a prejudice about what is actually reasonable.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes. For those unfamiliar with the expression, 'convertitus' is often heard in Orthodox and RC circles to describe the attitude of converts who either think they know it all or spend time blarting on and on about how awful their previous affiliation was and generally being sanctimonious pains in the arse.
It's a similar phenomenon to those RCs who converts to evangelical Protestantism and who spend their whole time sounding like a walking Chick Tract.
Or vegetarians, people who've given up smoking or anyone else who shifts from one position to another and spend the rest of their time being first class pains in the backside about it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
If I'd realised how evangelistic I was going to feel about a post-marital bedsit on the rough side of town, it might have lessened my commitment to lifelong cohabitation.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh really? What did Jesus convert to?
I'm not sure. But given what John was saying his baptism was about and given what the church later said baptism was about, it isn't so hard to wonder whether Jesus was converting from something to something else by being baptised.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
If I'd realised how evangelistic I was going to feel about a post-marital bedsit on the rough side of town, it might have lessened my commitment to lifelong cohabitation.
I felt guilty at how relieved I was.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
If "convertitis" is meant to describe a prioritisation of the need for conversion, then no-one exhibited it more than Jesus, who required it of everyone except himself.
Convertitis refers to the assholic/arseholic way new converts behave, specifically by exaggerating the problems with the religion/church/denomination they left (that's putting it nicely -- usually they are nasty about it, openly and loudly), and taking their new one too literally and woodenly. It has nothing to do with prioritisation of the need for conversion, except as an artifact of how bloody obnoxiously they gush about their new-found faith.
But it is "convertitis" because the person CONVERTED from one thing to another. Which Jesus did not.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh really? What did Jesus convert to?
I'm not sure. But given what John was saying his baptism was about and given what the church later said baptism was about, it isn't so hard to wonder whether Jesus was converting from something to something else by being baptised.
I'd say it's very hard to support however. He started a Jew and remained a Jew his entire life. He went to the same synagogue and the same temple as everybody else in the stories about him.
As for his baptism, perhaps this is an east/west thing. In Orthodoxy we are explicit that his baptism was not like our baptism. We are baptised to enter into his death. He didn't need to be baptised to enter into his death, he did the old-fashioned way, by dying.
Further later on in the book (Acts) the baptism of John and Christian baptism are strongly distinguished. The latter brings the Holy Spirit; the former does not. Jesus was baptised with the baptism of John, obvs. That's who baptised him. And He already had the Holy Spirit.
There's just no evidence in the Scriptures or the Fathers that Jesus converted from anything to anything else.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'd say it's very hard to support however. He started a Jew and remained a Jew his entire life. He went to the same synagogue and the same temple as everybody else in the stories about him.
Mmm. I wonder if what happened to other people that John baptised. Wouldn't they have continued being Jews and wouldn't they have continued in the same synagogue?
That's not rhetorical, I've no idea of the answer.
quote:
As for his baptism, perhaps this is an east/west thing. In Orthodoxy we are explicit that his baptism was not like our baptism. We are baptised to enter into his death. He didn't need to be baptised to enter into his death, he did the old-fashioned way, by dying.
I don't think this is an East-West thing, it is just me thinking aloud. I'm pretty sure that most Western churches, of whatever stripe, would agree that his baptism was not like our baptism.
As I said, I was just thinking aloud and reflecting that it isn't so hard to think that maybe Jesus was converting from something to something else given what we know of John's baptism and the establishment of baptism in the church. As you say, the simple explanation given by the church is that it was different because he was Jesus and we're not.
Even so, I can still understand how someone might think Jesus converted. That seems to me to be a simple reading of the text.
quote:
Further later on in the book (Acts) the baptism of John and Christian baptism are strongly distinguished. The latter brings the Holy Spirit; the former does not. Jesus was baptised with the baptism of John, obvs. That's who baptised him. And He already had the Holy Spirit.
Yes. And there are those who say that the true baptism was the one at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon the people - and they then suggest that the water baptism is only symbolic of the true, later, baptism of the Spirit.
quote:
There's just no evidence in the Scriptures or the Fathers that Jesus converted from anything to anything else.
Nope. Thanks for entertaining my thought seriously. We can go back to talking about the BVM now.
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arse
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