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Source: (consider it) Thread: Our Lady's marriage
mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
And there are those who say that the true baptism was the one at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon the people - and they then suggest that the water baptism is only symbolic of the true, later, baptism of the Spirit.

That would make a whole 'nother interesting thread. Romans 6:3ff speak about us being baptised into "a death like his" and nothing at all about the Holy Spirit. I think for Paul, water baptism was more than just a symbol. It was the means by which we are "united with him in a death like his" (Rom 6:5). That doesn't sound symbolic to me. YMMV.

As for the BVM, we left her some while back. Is there more to say?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes. For those unfamiliar with the expression, 'convertitus' is often heard in Orthodox and RC circles to describe the attitude of converts who either think they know it all or spend time blarting on and on about how awful their previous affiliation was and generally being sanctimonious pains in the arse.

It's a similar phenomenon to those RCs who converts to evangelical Protestantism and who spend their whole time sounding like a walking Chick Tract.

Or vegetarians, people who've given up smoking or anyone else who shifts from one position to another and spend the rest of their time being first class pains in the backside about it.

See, for example, this ad parody from New Zealand

(Probably best understood if you watch the original first.)

[ 02. July 2017, 16:34: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A study of the use of the Bible in a very large house church near me suggests otherwise.

The house church near you is not all - or even representative of most - evangelicals.
Well, it is representative of the type of evanglicalism that is growing fast.

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Gamaliel
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That's as may be, but it's not representative of evangelicalism as a whole.

If anything, some sections of evangelicalism - at least back in the day - were almost like Bible study clubs with some evangelism thrown in ...

It does depend on the type/flavour of evangelicalism you're talking about.

FWIW I'd suggest that the picture is pretty mixed and varied within evangelicalism these days. In some places you've got ministers / pastors who are pretty well-versed not only in the usual-suspect scriptures but with contemporary theological thought in general. In others, you've got a residual chewing-a-brick kind of line by line obsession with memorising scripture ...

In still others, you've got a very scripture-lite approach with lots of aspirational, rah-rah-rah feel-good-factor preaching ...

And all points and stations in between ...

If I can say this as a critical-friend and not as a side-swipe against evangelicalism per se I'd suggest that the situation in some of the fastest-growing evangelical churches is pretty bleak when it comes to theological reflection or serious engagement with the scriptures.

However, that's not the whole story ...

To be frank, though, I don't see the position being any healthier anywhere else. Only this afternoon one of the parishioners at the liberal Anglican parish down the road complained to me that their new-ish incumbent, 'expects us all to be Bible scholars ...'

I felt like saying, 'No she bloody well doesn't, but she does expect a modicum of interest at the very least and some kind of basic overview / understanding of the Christian faith ...'

Surely that' not too much to ask?

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, it is representative of the type of evanglicalism that is growing fast.

I see. So your myopic understanding of a single strand of Evangelicalism - which you probably don't really know very well at all - entitles you to make sweeping statements about the rest of it.

No. That's ridiculous.

However big the house-churches in question are, and however fast they're growing, there is no sense that they're representative of evangelicals or evangelicalism. You're just bring something you don't like about a particular church into a discussion to assist in giving evangelicalism in general a kicking.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Gamaliel
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@Stetson ... ha ha ha ...

Nice one.

@Mousethief ... it seems we left the BVM behind a good while back ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
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Hey, I tried to pull the tangent back with a nifty allusion to sexless marriage, but it didn't quite land properly [Cool]

[ 02. July 2017, 21:42: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]

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(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Convertitis refers to the assholic/arseholic way new converts behave, specifically by exaggerating the problems with the religion/church/denomination they left (that's putting it nicely -- usually they are nasty about it, openly and loudly), and taking their new one too literally and woodenly.

In which case Paul is the inventor and founder of convertitis (Philippians 3:2-9 where he describes his former religious life as a load of skubalon, or shit), and was followed by many others (eg Augustine) who similarly execrated their former beliefs and practices.

In which case, the reference to Luther is just another inaccurate, gratuitous and snide shot at evangelicalism.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Just as many evangelicals only know the bits of scripture that appear on Powerpoint in their services.

Given that many - possibly most - Evangelical churches promote and value personal bible study, I'd think that's unlikely to be very many people.
A study of the use of the Bible in a very large house church near me suggests otherwise.
Leo, I don't really expect you to be fair but at least please give some credit where credit is due by being correct.

It may be the case that your local house church is a Bethel or New Wine clone at the very edge of charismania but one example doesn't make a rule. There are many exceptions to this within your own Diocese - I'm part of it, too.

I'll admit that, journeying around recently, I was saddened by the lack of depth in bible teaching in some sermons. Some were dire expositions, others good presentations about current issues but with little theological content. Some read the passages prescribed in the Lectionary but basically ignored one or all of them. Some clearly had local agendas to pursue or personal hobby horses to ride. Some were small rural churches, others were very large national "centres" of all theological hues.

Some was good. A few very good. One exceptional in its breadth, depth and clarity.

Having said that, I can travel for 5 minutes from my home and find relevant, biblical preaching that stretches me. It isn't restricted to evangelical churches but it's predominant there. It's helpful stuff but it's not a place of wide extremes ... there are growing churches including our own, the common theme being a commitment to God and His word. The churches that are declining are the ones of the social action/liberal/high church tradition which somehow don't seem to connect with everyday life.

I know numbers aren't anything - connection is. The churches that aren't connecting are the ones who infantilise their congregations by making assumptions that they will "pick things up" from what goes on. The growing churches commit to the bible in plain understanding and making it real.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

Having said that, I can travel for 5 minutes from my home and find relevant, biblical preaching that stretches me. It isn't restricted to evangelical churches but it's predominant there. It's helpful stuff but it's not a place of wide extremes ... there are growing churches including our own, the common theme being a commitment to God and His word. The churches that are declining are the ones of the social action/liberal/high church tradition which somehow don't seem to connect with everyday life.

I know numbers aren't anything - connection is. The churches that aren't connecting are the ones who infantilise their congregations by making assumptions that they will "pick things up" from what goes on. The growing churches commit to the bible in plain understanding and making it real.

There are so many things wrong with what you've said here that it would take too long to decode.

However, I will note that you are speaking in a particular Evangelical code language - perhaps unwittingly - and are illustrating something else which many (perhaps most) Evangelicals display. Which is the ability to invent terms, fill them with a certain meaning and then use them as a weapon to attack others with.

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Martin60
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Agreed mr cheesy. Coded as in he who has a nose let him pick up his bed and sing. I might have a go if I can be arsed.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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Senility, cuh, fuh: he who has a nose TO HEAR let him pick up his bed and sing. That's better.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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OK. Not blow by blow, just synopsis: this is a false dichotomy. No matter how many hours of personal, prayerful bible study before dawn or otherwise in-house and how much deeply meaningful lecturing goes on, or not, it achieves nothing at all but St. Francis' unnecessary 'if necessary'.

The last sermon I heard, last year probably, was by a consummate speaker; warm, amusing, inclusive, self-deprecating, threatening the large charismatic evangelical Anglican congregation with its at least large minority of divorced and remarried people and other guilt ridden sexually active single ones with 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Revelation 21:8.

Is that the kind of exposition you mean !?

I'm intrigued by "The churches that are declining are the ones of the social action/liberal/high church tradition which somehow don't seem to connect with everyday life.". I can see that social action that doesn't connect to everyday life is meaningless. The only reason I go to my large charismatic evangelical Anglican illiberal church is because it's low enough to be socially active connected with everyday life - 1% incarnational - despite being trapped in pious literalism with no other sense of the trajectory of social justice.

One cannot have the one without the other it seems.

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Love wins

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Gamaliel
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Convertitis refers to the assholic/arseholic way new converts behave, specifically by exaggerating the problems with the religion/church/denomination they left (that's putting it nicely -- usually they are nasty about it, openly and loudly), and taking their new one too literally and woodenly.

In which case Paul is the inventor and founder of convertitis (Philippians 3:2-9 where he describes his former religious life as a load of skubalon, or shit), and was followed by many others (eg Augustine) who similarly execrated their former beliefs and practices.

In which case, the reference to Luther is just another inaccurate, gratuitous and snide shot at evangelicalism.

Except that Luther wasn't evangelical in the contemporary sense ...

Come on, Kaplan, drop this obsession with evangelicalism being targeted unduly.

Leo's having a crack at evangelicalism now just (as we'd say in South Wales) and people are calling him on it - including me.

Mousethief was joffing with me on the convertitis thing and made a jokey remark about Luther. I laughed. I didn't get uptight thinking it was some kind of gratuitous side-swipe at Protestantism.

In another context or another discussion I could see Mousethief and I having some banter over St John Chrysostom, say or Athanasius or someone else ...

If he - or anyone else - were to get upset about that then they should 'man up' or jump over-board rather than snivelling about any perceived 'dig' at one's own favoured tradition/s.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

Having said that, I can travel for 5 minutes from my home and find relevant, biblical preaching that stretches me. It isn't restricted to evangelical churches but it's predominant there. It's helpful stuff but it's not a place of wide extremes ... there are growing churches including our own, the common theme being a commitment to God and His word. The churches that are declining are the ones of the social action/liberal/high church tradition which somehow don't seem to connect with everyday life.

I know numbers aren't anything - connection is. The churches that aren't connecting are the ones who infantilise their congregations by making assumptions that they will "pick things up" from what goes on. The growing churches commit to the bible in plain understanding and making it real.

There are so many things wrong with what you've said here that it would take too long to decode.

However, I will note that you are speaking in a particular Evangelical code language - perhaps unwittingly - and are illustrating something else which many (perhaps most) Evangelicals display. Which is the ability to invent terms, fill them with a certain meaning and then use them as a weapon to attack others with.

Steady on, I didn't interpret ExclamationMark's remarks that way - although I didn't particularly like the way he put it ...

However, like it or not, I think he is onto something. I had a conversation yesterday with some of the disaffected people down at the liberal Anglican parish here. The new-ish incumbent is unpopular as she's a stickler for liturgical detail and niceties - and they don't want that - having grown used to liturgical and theological inexactitude under the previous, and very popular incumbent ...

(Tangent alert: the previous incumbent was the only person I've heard preach on John 1 'In the beginning was the Word ...' without mentioning Christ. That must take a special kind of genius ... )

[Biased] [Roll Eyes]

So, sadly, the young people have largely voted with their feet and no longer attend and a lot of the older folk are grumpily withdrawing and expecting home-communion ...

I can see a car crash ahead ...

Anyhow, back to ExclamationMark's point, he did make it clear that engaging sermons and 'relevant' applications and teachings weren't the sole preserve of evangelical pulpits. I might put things the same way as he did but I can certainly see the point he's making and yes, by and large, I'd say that many - if not most - evangelical churches do a reasonable job on that score.

Those on the fringes of charismania, less so.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Steady on, I didn't interpret ExclamationMark's remarks that way - although I didn't particularly like the way he put it ...

However, like it or not, I think he is onto something.

I don't think he is. leo's impression matches my own. In several towns I know well, the fastest growing (and likely largest) church is a youth-focused fairly charismatic ex-house church occupying a building on an industrial estate.

I have spoken at length to someone I trust very much who was involved in a leadership level at one of these churches - and who told me frankly that the level of biblical literacy was low.

And, incidentally, all the churches I know of this type are heavily into various kinds of social work - including youth work and various other kinds of outreach.

One church of this type near here has just bought a larger industrial unit for (IIRC) £350,000 (which is quite a lot for South Wales) to fit in the growing congregation and to do more socially focused outreach, including working with various groups to make use of the building.

The idea that the only growing churches are those who aren't doing social work and who have committed biblical teaching and heavy sermons seems to me to be a fallacy.

quote:
Anyhow, back to ExclamationMark's point, he did make it clear that engaging sermons and 'relevant' applications and teachings weren't the sole preserve of evangelical pulpits. I might put things the same way as he did but I can certainly see the point he's making and yes, by and large, I'd say that many - if not most - evangelical churches do a reasonable job on that score.
I think both of you are making wild generalisations which are impossible to sustain. One simply cannot talk about "evangelical churches" doing things in the abstract because that really doesn't mean anything at all.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Gamaliel
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Unless I'm missing something, I don't think ExclamationMark was suggesting that the only churches that are growing are those into heavy-duty sermons and not social action ...

I seem to remember that he's mentioned a few times here aboard Ship that his own church is quite socially engaged.

Nor do I see him advocating 'heavy-duty' sermons. He certainly seems to be advocating engaging ones, but that's not the same thing as wanting a John Owen chewing-a-brick Puritanical sermon every Sunday ...

I think you've got the wrong end of ExclamationMark's stick ... if I can put it that way ...

On the issue as to whether some of the house-church / yoof and family-style churches are pretty lightweight theologically, I don't see anyone here denying that this is the case. I'm sure ExclamationMark wouldn't. Indeed, he has already addressed this with his comment about the fringes of charismania.

All he seems to be saying is that not all evangelical churches go in for that kind of dumbed-down theology-lite approach.

I agree with him. Simple observation shows that not to be the case.

I might not phrase or frame it in the way he has done, but I think he's making a valid point and I submit it's a different point to the one you seem to think he's making.

Anyhow, back to the evo-bashing tangent ...

@Kaplan Corday, my guess would be that had Luther been confronted with the sort of comment Mousethief made he'd have simply laughed and said, 'Ha ha ... guilty as charged - but come on, it's not as if you beardie bastards are any better when it comes to anti-Papal polemics ...'

Which would be fair enough.

Some of the beardie-wierdies on Mount Athos would make the late Dr Ian Paisley look like the Ultramontane Chairman of the Papal Appreciation Society.

Rather than bleating and whining, Luther would have probably said, 'Come over here and say that. We'll share a tankard of ale and then see which of us can piss the highest up the wall ...'

None of this, 'Come and see the violence inherent in the system,' schtick. 'Oh, oh, oh dear people aboard Ship are all pissy about evangelicalism. Oh dear, oh dearie-dearie me ... how naughty of them ... what utter, utter, utter scoundrels ... Help, help, I'm being repressed ...'

[Disappointed]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Rather than bleating and whining, Luther would have probably said, 'Come over here and say that. We'll share a tankard of ale and then see which of us can piss the highest up the wall ...'

Not in English he wouldn't.
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Martin60
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Indeed: Komm her und sage das. Wir werden einen Krug von Ale teilen und dann sehen, welche von uns die höchsten an der Wand pissen können.

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Love wins

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Bishops Finger
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ALE?

Bier, surely....

[Paranoid]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Gamaliel
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Yes, and he'd have said, 'Donner und Blitzen!' and 'Himmel!' like the Germans used to in The Victor and The Hospur when I was a kid ...

'Achtung, Englander!'

Or in Kaplan's case, 'Achtung, Australicher!' (Excuse my feeble attempt to remember school boy German)

Whatever the case, the point is that I doubt old Martin would have been that fazed by Mousethief's mild digs.

He would have been more robust.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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Of course, Luther wouldn't be addressing Kaplan but Mousethief, in which case he'd say, 'Actung Amerikaner!'

To Kaplan he'd say, 'Achtung, milchbart ... get over it already ...'

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Of course, Luther wouldn't be addressing Kaplan but Mousethief, in which case he'd say, 'Actung Amerikaner!'

If he were from Berlin I could say, "Hey, doughnut!"

quote:
Whatever the case, the point is that I doubt old Martin would have been that fazed by Mousethief's mild digs.

He would have been more robust.

And scatological.

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
In which case, the reference to Luther is just another inaccurate, gratuitous and snide shot at evangelicalism.

Or I just didn't have Paul and Augustine -- excellent examples by the way -- in mind at the time. But hey feel sorry for yourself all you want. It's the Evangelical thing to do on the Ship, apparently.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The idea that the only growing churches are those who aren't doing social work and who have committed biblical teaching and heavy sermons seems to me to be a fallacy.

Indeed, I'd go so far as to say if you're not doing social work you're not very committed to biblical teaching, or at least the biblical teaching printed in red letters.

[ 03. July 2017, 16:43: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Gamaliel
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Is a persecution complex and feeling sorry for oneself in line with biblical teaching?

It seems that Jonah and Elijah ('I'm the only one left and now they're trying to kill me too) went in for that. They both got short shrift if I remember rightly ...

Or have I been so erratic in my attendance at full-on evangelical services that I've forgotten the modicum of biblical knowledge that I had ... ?

[Paranoid]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, it is representative of the type of evanglicalism that is growing fast.

I see. So your myopic understanding of a single strand of Evangelicalism - which you probably don't really know very well at all - entitles you to make sweeping statements about the rest of it.

No. That's ridiculous.

However big the house-churches in question are, and however fast they're growing, there is no sense that they're representative of evangelicals or evangelicalism. You're just bring something you don't like about a particular church into a discussion to assist in giving evangelicalism in general a kicking.

It's the place where we get a lot of new members on the rebound - so my knowledge comes from them.

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It may be the case that your local house church is a Bethel or New Wine clone at the very edge of charismania but one example doesn't make a rule. There are many exceptions to this within your own Diocese - I'm part of it, too.

Not 'in' the diocese - independent - it claims that 'if you're part of a denomination you will die'.

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Gamaliel
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Sure,we all know and recognise the type, leo. What ExclamationMark is saying is that they aren't necessarily representative of evangelicalism as a whole.

You may as well claim that Reform or Forward in Faith are entirely representative of Anglicanism.

Interesting that you get people from there on the rebound though. I once met an ACNA ordinand from Tennessee whose parish was picking up a lot of people from 'non-denominational' churches. I've not heard of that sort of thing happening to such an extent here in the UK.

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Gamaliel
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I'd also suggest that the level of biblical literacy would have been higher 20 or 30 years ago within such outfits than they are now. I used to be involved with the restorationist ambit - independent charismatic evangelicalism and I was always seen as 'a' man of the word' as I was regarded as someone with a fair bit of Bible knowledge, although that probably says more about them then it does about me. Looking back, my Bible knowledge wasn't that great. It's all relative, of course.

In other evangelical circles I'd have probably been seen as reasonably au fait with the scriptures but no great shakes.

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
ALE?

Bier, surely....

[Paranoid]

IJ

Beer is Bier, ale is Ale.

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Love wins

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, and he'd have said, 'Donner und Blitzen!' and 'Himmel!' like the Germans used to in The Victor and The Hospur when I was a kid ...

They were also always saying "Kameraden", because they were always surrendering, and (my favourite) "Mein Gott! These Englanders fight like devils!"

I had an eclectic selection of plastic soldiers when I was a kid, but only the German ones showed any in the act of surrendering with hands in the air, staggering backward as if just killed by a bullet, or running away without their rifle and looking back over their shoulder in terror.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

@Kaplan Corday, my guess would be that had Luther been confronted with the sort of comment Mousethief made he'd have simply laughed and said, 'Ha ha ... guilty as charged

Well yes, given the jolly old cove's response to other critics and opponents (such as Jews and German peasants) that seems a fair enough assumption.
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mousethief

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He certainly wouldn't have gotten his little snowflake knickers in a twist.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Except that Luther wasn't evangelical in the contemporary sense ...

True, but it is equally true that in another sense he was the founder of modern evangelicalism, and typically representative of it.

quote:
Come on, Kaplan, drop this obsession with evangelicalism being targeted unduly.

Mousethief was joffing with me on the convertitis thing and made a jokey remark about Luther. I laughed. I didn't get uptight thinking it was some kind of gratuitous side-swipe at Protestantism.

It is common to attempt to silence a constantly vilified member of a minority in a particular context who speaks out, by telling them that they are imagining it, or that they lack a sense of humour, or that they need to get over it and move on.

There are, of course, loads of legitimate and appropriately expressed criticisms of aspects of evangelicalism to which I take no exception, and which in many cases I share, but when it comes to gratuitous snideness and bigotry, I will call it out.

If anyone wants to whine and snivel about that, that's their problem.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd also suggest that the level of biblical literacy would have been higher 20 or 30 years ago within such outfits than they are now. I used to be involved with the restorationist ambit - independent charismatic evangelicalism and I was always seen as 'a' man of the word' as I was regarded as someone with a fair bit of Bible knowledge, although that probably says more about them then it does about me. Looking back, my Bible knowledge wasn't that great. It's all relative, of course.

In other evangelical circles I'd have probably been seen as reasonably au fait with the scriptures but no great shakes.

To be fair, if evangelical churches are doing what we say we're setting out to do-- i.e. evangelism, no proselyting-- then low biblical literacy is exactly what we should see. It would be a sign that we really are reaching previously unchurched/ irreligious people with a message of hope

Whether that's really what's going on in this one particular house church I couldn't say, but just note that we need more context in order to interpret the observation

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Except that Luther wasn't evangelical in the contemporary sense ...

True, but it is equally true that in another sense he was the founder of modern evangelicalism, and typically representative of it.

quote:
Come on, Kaplan, drop this obsession with evangelicalism being targeted unduly.

Mousethief was joffing with me on the convertitis thing and made a jokey remark about Luther. I laughed. I didn't get uptight thinking it was some kind of gratuitous side-swipe at Protestantism.

It is common to attempt to silence a constantly vilified member of a minority in a particular context who speaks out, by telling them that they are imagining it, or that they lack a sense of humour, or that they need to get over it and move on.

There are, of course, loads of legitimate and appropriately expressed criticisms of aspects of evangelicalism to which I take no exception, and which in many cases I share, but when it comes to gratuitous snideness and bigotry, I will call it out.

If anyone wants to whine and snivel about that, that's their problem.

There's only one person whining and snivelling here.

Don't flatter yourself that you're a member of a 'constantly vilified minority.'

Your evangelicalism isn't the source of censure here. Your playing the victim-card is.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Gamaliel
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd also suggest that the level of biblical literacy would have been higher 20 or 30 years ago within such outfits than they are now. I used to be involved with the restorationist ambit - independent charismatic evangelicalism and I was always seen as 'a' man of the word' as I was regarded as someone with a fair bit of Bible knowledge, although that probably says more about them then it does about me. Looking back, my Bible knowledge wasn't that great. It's all relative, of course.

In other evangelical circles I'd have probably been seen as reasonably au fait with the scriptures but no great shakes.

To be fair, if evangelical churches are doing what we say we're setting out to do-- i.e. evangelism, no proselyting-- then low biblical literacy is exactly what we should see. It would be a sign that we really are reaching previously unchurched/ irreligious people with a message of hope

Whether that's really what's going on in this one particular house church I couldn't say, but just note that we need more context in order to interpret the observation

Sure, I get that and it's a reasonable observation.

My own 'take' would be that it's all down to expectations. As a tradition that emphases personal and collective Bible study one would expect some corners of evangelicalism to be 'better' than they actually are in terms of biblical literacy.

As with anything else, the rhetoric often belies the reality.

To be fair, it's not as if any of the other traditions excel in this particular regard either.

Room for improvement all ways round.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It may be the case that your local house church is a Bethel or New Wine clone at the very edge of charismania but one example doesn't make a rule. There are many exceptions to this within your own Diocese - I'm part of it, too.

Not 'in' the diocese - independent - it claims that 'if you're part of a denomination you will die'.
Leo I was trying to point out that whatever the church you are talking about is like (and I think I might just know what/where it is ... as to the first letter of the name might it be "W?"), there will be churches in the Diocese which are not fundamentally any different from that in terms of styles, songs, content. I know one within a mile of where I sit.

OK I give you the "denominations are evil" bit but that's hardly representative of most evangelical churches.

Thanks Gamaliel for the supportive words.

I am not by any means implying nor am I claiming that evangelical churches represent a unique example of excellent preaching .... just as excellent preaching is found across the denominations and styles, so is the rubbish and/or unhelpful. That goes too for those churches which use a lot of scripture as much as for those who use very little.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Your evangelicalism isn't the source of censure here. Your playing the victim-card is.

It is not "my" evangelicalism, but evangelicalism in general which is disproprtionately (and often unfairly) attacked on the Ship, and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

What is more, I am not a "victim", because I choose to operate within an anti-evangelical forum.

There is no way that my drawing attention to it is going to stop it, but there is no way that I am going to stop exposing it when it occurs.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Be the if we kept a record, it wouldn't be Evangelism but a few views associated with evangelism.
Which is not the same thing.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Gamaliel
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Yes, evangelicalism can be attacked unfairly on the Ship, Kaplan.

Leo, on this thread, has, in my view, attacked it unfairly by projecting the perceived faults of a particular evangelical congregation onto evangelicalism as a whole

Mr cheesy has called him on it, ExclamationMark has called him on it, Cliffdweller has called him on it. I have called him on it.

What tradition do EM and Cliffdweller represent? Hmmm ... Let me see ... Something beginning with ...

I've also tried to correct your perceived sense of injustice and imbalance by starting a thread praising aspects of various traditions. I started it by praising evangelicalism.

I am not disingenuous. If people post bollocks about evangelicalism I bloody well call them on it. It's called backbone.

What I don't do is wring my hands, bleat, moan and whine and try to offset any criticism of evangelicalism there might be - whether mild, strong, deserved or undeserved - by special pleading or trying to undermine what might be legitimate and understandable concerns about aspects of evangelicalism by bloviating about how the whole world is against it.

As far as I know, leo has never been an evangelical. I have. That doesn't mean everything I say about it is going to be more accurate or 'better' than what he might say. But it does mean I can give an inside view.

Which is what I have been doing. In this instance, my inside track view differs from his external one.

If I was hell-bent on dissing evangelicalism for the sheer cussedness of doing so, I wouldn't be trying to put him straight.

I rarely clash with the more nuanced evangelicals here - people like Cliffdweller, Eutychus, EM and others. I often clash with those I consider to be less flexible, less nuanced and very doctrinaire - such as Jamat.

Were I RC I would have clashed with InGoB, I'm sure. I didn't because I'm not RC and don't have an inside track on the RCC.

Yes, I've overdone things at times, but I bloody well haven't on this thread.

You are perfectly entitled to 'call' people on what you see as anti-evangelicalism and to take a perverse pride in what you apparently see as holding your own on a predominantly 'anti-evangelical' site. Bully for you.

But that isn't going to stop me calling you out for being a wuss.

Nor defending myself against insinuations and accusations that I am trying to 'close' arguments down. I am not closing them down. I am opening things out.

I am here to learn from other people as much as anything else.

If that means I have a dig at traditions you want to defend then so be it. Defend them. That's fine. Just don't be a Jessie about it.

FFS, Mousethief came out with a barbed comment about Luther. Some of us, you included, joffed back at him. Paul was cited. Augustine was cited. He accepted that.

Let's be robust. Less of this sanctimonious hand-wringing and bleating for goodness sake. I've heard of whingeing Poms. It looks like we've got whingeing Aussies on our hands.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Except that Luther wasn't evangelical in the contemporary sense ...

True, but it is equally true that in another sense he was the founder of modern evangelicalism, and typically representative of it.
No, not really. Modern evangelicalism is a product of the Enlightenment, which postdates Luther.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Be the if we kept a record, it wouldn't be Evangelism but a few views associated with evangelism.
Which is not the same thing.

As regards "not the same thing", we are discussing evangelicalism, not evangelism.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Except that Luther wasn't evangelical in the contemporary sense ...

True, but it is equally true that in another sense he was the founder of modern evangelicalism, and typically representative of it.
No, not really. Modern evangelicalism is a product of the Enlightenment, which postdates Luther.
The Enlightenment, and many other post-1517 elements, fed into today's evangelicalism, but its two most fundamental aspects, and which more than any other precipitated the Reformation, are Luther's emphases: sola/prima scriptura and justification by faith.
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Kaplan Corday
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Not sure what buttons I am inadvertently pressing to produce that tirade, Gamaliel, but you are certainly taking it very personally.

First, it is not all about me, or you, and it is certainly not about me targeting you.

Secondly, it is not about my Canutely demanding a blanket ban on all criticism of evangelicalism.

Finally, it is about disproportionate, frivolous and unfair criticism of evangelicalism, which I will continue to call out as I perceive them, and despite the fact that it cannot and will not have any effect - an outcome which I am perfectly willing to live with.

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Gamaliel
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I'm taking it no more personally than you are.

Besides, you accused me of being 'disingenuous' so I am calling you on it.

Also, you have accused me of engaging in gratuitous and frivolous side-swipes at evangelicalism.

I don't accept that. The gratuitousness is in the eye of the beholder as far as I'm concerned ie. yours.

Granted, I've fulminated against aspects of evangelicalism here aboard Ship probably more times than is good for me or for anyone else.

I accept that.

However, I am - and have always been - very careful to distinguish the aspects I fulminate against - hyper-literalism, narrowness of vision, fundamentalist mindsets - from evangelicalism per se.

I also created a thread to balance things out.

I have no problem with you defending evangelicalism. No issue with that at all.

I defend evangelicalism too. I have done so on this very thread.

What I do have an issue with is you bleating and whining as if poor ickle evangelicalism is having a hard time and as if it is somehow so sacrosanct that nobody is allowed to have a go at it.

That's all.

I'm not taking it 'personally'. I'm simply fed up with you whining about it - as I'm sure people can get fed up with me criticising aspects of it when I've done so.

At length.

For which I apologise.

Satisfied?

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Except that Luther wasn't evangelical in the contemporary sense ...

True, but it is equally true that in another sense he was the founder of modern evangelicalism, and typically representative of it.
No, not really. Modern evangelicalism is a product of the Enlightenment, which postdates Luther.
How ironic.

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Love wins

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Gamaliel
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I think the most that can be said is that Luther's revolt gave birth to Protestantism which, in turn was a contributory factor to the Enlightenment and also to the emergence of evangelicalism.

One could argue that the Enlightenment was the bastard-child of the Reformation - and plenty of RCs and Orthodox and some forms of Anglo-Catholic would say that. Secular historians obviously make that connection too.

Whether we think that's right, wrong, good, bad or indifferent depends on a whole range of factors.

FWIW, I certainly believe there was 'light in the Enlightenment' - and we all bask in the benefits of that - but equally it wasn't all sweetness and light, of course - and we all suffer the consequences of that too.

Both/and ...

As for the development of evangelicalism, whilst it obviously draws on earlier influences and antecedents, it only becomes discernible as a distinct movement within Protestantism from around the 1730s.

For obvious reasons, some evangelicals keep wanting to push the date back further. But they can't.

Whoops! Is that yet another example of a frivolous and gratuitous side-swipe at evangelicalism?

[Roll Eyes]

Or is it simply putting evangelicalism in its proper place and context, as an important sub-section/development within Protestantism with roots in 16th century Puritanism and 18th century Pietism that took on a recognisably 'modern' and 'modernist' form from the 1730s onwards and which had become fully-fledged by the 1850s ... ?

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

As for the BVM, we left her some while back. Is there more to say?

Whether there might be more to say on the thread theme is up to Shipmates. But I think it is now time to either;

a) set up a new thread for the tangent

or

b) drop it here.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Gamaliel
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I'd be happy to see a new thread on the roots/developments of evangelicalism and its importance in the overall scheme of things - and to see it take a positive and balanced slant.

I'd also be happy to drop the thing entirely.

On the BVM side of things, I'm not sure there's anything more we can say there that hasn't been said before the tangent took over.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What I do have an issue with is you bleating and whining as if poor ickle evangelicalism is having a hard time and as if it is somehow so sacrosanct that nobody is allowed to have a go at it.

That's all.

No, that's not all.

It trivialises the issue, uses puerile language, and misrepresents the facts.

To reiterate for the umpteenth time, I am not trying to prevent criticism of evangelicalism (and couldn't, even if I wanted to), but when I consider the criticism is unfair, I will exercise my right to say so.

That's all.

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