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Source: (consider it) Thread: Medical treatment--who gets what, who decides, who pays?
Golden Key
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mr cheesy--

Re Limbaugh's site being "a little weird":

You probably don't know this, living elsewhere. But Limbaugh has a long record of being an alt-Right wacko. And that's the flavor of "journalism" he does. FYI.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mr cheesy--

Re Limbaugh's site being "a little weird":

You probably don't know this, living elsewhere. But Limbaugh has a long record of being an alt-Right wacko. And that's the flavor of "journalism" he does. FYI.

I am well aware of who Limbaugh is, and I'm sure the vast majority of readers of this thread.

The point I was making was that the original post was to a news source which looked like it might be unreliable. I then checked Limbaugh's own site and found the transcript.

The state and trust of Limbaugh's journalism is irrelevant to the point that he interviewed Pence and that these things were said. That's the only reason I linked to his website.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
There is clearly a public confusion about what death means

There is legal confusion as well. Definitions of brain death vary. Unfortunately we need one to support current medical practice and to help with legal and ethical dilemmas, so saying it can't be defined isn't an option.

It is perfectly possible to have a dead brain stem which meets all the legal definitions without a consequence for the rest of the body in terms of hormone production. Even where there is a consequence, this could be dealt with by a bit of thyroid hormone and steroids.

Unfortunately I don't think there's any neat way of defining life being independent of technology, otherwise where does that leave people on dialysis or who have a bit of oxygen overnight to keep them going?

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L'organist
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One of the most disturbing aspects of the Charlie Gard affair is the way that the Gard family seem to have been (willingly) taken over by US right-to-life activists. Bearing in mind the domestic US agenda of these people, that is very troubling.

AUL (Americans United for Life) are the most visible of these people. If you go to their website, the top item on their HOME page is about Charlie Gard. Later their CEO, Catherine Glenn Foster, is quoted thus:
quote:
Back in the United States, I got to know Charlie’s mother, Connie, over the phone and via email. When she asked me to come to London to advocate for her family, as they face a life and death struggle, I knew that Charlie stood a better chance with our help. White House officials called me to ask for a meeting to brief us on their efforts, and I flew out from Washington, D.C. that night,” Foster said. “As a mother, I have come to stand with Charlie’s mother, to appeal to those in leadership to allow the family a choice for life"
Quite apart from anything else, it would seem that the White House is actively encouraging these people.

Over here, Channel 4 News is doing its best to point up the hidden agenda of these people: in an interview with them Foster admitted she was not a doctor or medically trained in any way but then went on to say she had "studied" Charlie Gard's ECGs and MRI scans and that allowing 'treatment' in the US would "bring hope to the world".

This campaign is being run on pure emotion and hype. While it is not only understandable but even forgiveable that Chris Gard and Connie Yates are, effectively, saying that they know more than the staff of the most famous children's hospital in the world, for someone like Foster to do so is hubris of mammoth proportions.

As for the notion that the state or doctors can sometimes know better than parents what is best for their child and should therefore be empowered to reach decision in the child's best interests, why are we all forgetting the obvious? Doctors in this country - and I suspect the US - are allowed to make such decisions every day in relation to the children of Jehovah's Witnesses or in protecting girls from being forced to undergo FGM.

AUL, Fr Peter Mahoney and all the other dubious hangers-on in the media circus around Chris Gard and Connie Yates should be ashamed of themselves; their time would be better spent trying to persuade Charlie's parents that sometimes there really is nothing that can be done. Life can be cruel and unfair.

[ 13. July 2017, 12:12: Message edited by: L'organist ]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Bishops Finger
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Ms. Yates and Mr. Gard are now arguing with the medics about the size of Carlie's skull, maintaining that (despite what the medics say), it has grown, and therefore (AIUI) shows that Charlie's brain is active:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40593286

How much more tragic and absurd can this case become?

[Disappointed]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:


How much more tragic and absurd can this case become?

[Disappointed]

IJ

Oh it'd get more absurd if the child was kidnapped, flown to the USA and then recovered.

If that happens, we might as well all hand in our morals, stick our heads between our knees and await Armageddon.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Bishops Finger
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Sounds like direct intervention by Trump....

Seriously, though, it is all a terrible mess, and Charlie's poor parents seem to have managed to hitch a lift on the tiger's back...

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Doublethink.
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Made a "What is death ?" thread - for discussing the tangent about definitions of death.

[ 13. July 2017, 18:39: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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L'organist
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Members of the team caring for Charlie Gard at GOSH - nurses, technicians and doctors - are now receiving death threats through social media, at the hospital and in their own homes. Dear Lord, what a world.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Golden Key
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Yuck. People seem to do death threats much more often and easily these days.

News crawler on TV screen has a flash that an American doctor said treatment for Charlie Gard is worth a try.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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L'organist
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He would know of course, having never seen the child, nor any scans, etc.

The High Court have taken the unusual step of placing an injunction on revealing the name of the Counsel appointed by the court to represent Charlie - tells you a lot, doesn't it?

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Martin60
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Where it possibly can go to shit, it will. The American hijacking of this without a dissenting American voice that I can hear is the shittiest development. It's beginning to remind me of '70s sci fi, like John Brunner's awesome 'Stand on Zanzibar' and much, much else. Early Larry Niven anthologies, Harry Harrison, Ray Bradbury and the like. "Prexy says ..." ending with people on the west coast of Ireland smelling 'that great burning'.

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Love wins

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Golden Key
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L'organist--

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
He would know of course, having never seen the child, nor any scans, etc.

I heard later that he's the one with the experimental treatment, and he said his usual "10% chance" of working.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Jane R
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Lest we forget: the NHS has been ranked top of a list of 11 health systems in 'wealthy' countries. Again.

Not something you will hear representatives of the nation that came bottom mentioning, when talking about the Gard case.

And of course "the American doctor" would think there's a 10% chance of improvement if his treatment is tried. After all, if it doesn't work he can blame the NHS for not handing poor Charlie over to him in time. Win-win from his point of view.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mr cheesy--

Re Limbaugh's site being "a little weird":

You probably don't know this, living elsewhere. But Limbaugh has a long record of being an alt-Right wacko. And that's the flavor of "journalism" he does. FYI.

He's a conservative, not "alt-right". It appears alt-right folks are suspicious of free markets, for example. Limbaugh is not.

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Delmar O'Donnell

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mr cheesy--

Re Limbaugh's site being "a little weird":

You probably don't know this, living elsewhere. But Limbaugh has a long record of being an alt-Right wacko. And that's the flavor of "journalism" he does. FYI.

He's a conservative, not "alt-right". It appears alt-right folks are suspicious of free markets, for example. Limbaugh is not.
Free market skepticism isn't a core value of "alt-right" racism is pretty much the defining core.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Free market skepticism isn't a core value of "alt-right"

Oh, ok. Free markets are a core value of mine and alt-right folks appear to be protectionist.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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BroJames
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Not all free markets are equal. Free markets which benefit "us" are good, free trade (an international free market) which might be detrimental to "us" is bad.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Free market skepticism isn't a core value of "alt-right"

Oh, ok. Free markets are a core value of mine and alt-right folks appear to be protectionist.
Think that might be because the free market means dealing with furiners instead of 'muricans.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Free market skepticism isn't a core value of "alt-right"

Oh, ok. Free markets are a core value of mine and alt-right folks appear to be protectionist.
Think that might be because the free market means dealing with furiners instead of 'muricans.
It is because the merkins who figure their jobs are being protected can vote for you.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mere Nick
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Take Trump's recent statement about steel for example. It may sound good to the US folks in the steel industry, but it seems to be a really bad idea for everyone else.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
And of course "the American doctor" would think there's a 10% chance of improvement if his treatment is tried. After all, if it doesn't work he can blame the NHS for not handing poor Charlie over to him in time. Win-win from his point of view.

Not to mention that whether it works or not, he'll have got a nice big paycheck out of it. There's good money to be made out of feeding grieving parents false hope...

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Hail Gallaxhar

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It may sound good to the US folks in the steel industry, but it seems to be a really bad idea for everyone else.

It may not even be that good from the perspective of the average *worker* in the steel industry, let alone the wider economic cost. At some point automation will be a viable strategy to further drive up margin, and then this will happen:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-21/how-just-14-people-make-500-000-tons-of-steel-a-year-in-austria

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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Meanwhile, Senator John McCain had a large blood clot removed from his cranium -- at the Mayo Clinic, no less!

Let's hear it for the quality of insurance that persons in a position to vote it in for themselves, vote it in for themselves.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Lamb Chopped
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No need to be crabby--his absence delays and possibly destroys the dreadful bill, and AFAIK he's not totally in favor of the evil thing himself.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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lilBuddha
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No, I agree with AB.R. Fuck the bastards who fuck their constituents by denying them what the bastards themselves enjoy.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Brenda Clough
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The original ACA mandated that Congresspersons be covered by Obamacare. However, in the current proposed redo they took care to bury in the fine print an exception for themselves from all their new laws. I only hope that the exemption applies only while they're in office, so that when they're voted out they're waiting in line with the rest of us, but I am not confident. (The pension plan for Congress is of a dazzling magnificence.)

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, I agree with AB.R. Fuck the bastards who fuck their constituents by denying them what the bastards themselves enjoy.

[pulls out hair]

He hasn't done so yet--that's the point, taken together with the fact that this is one of the few Republicans with the cojones to stand up to Trump. At least on occasion.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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mdijon
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Here's the list of Trump-opposing senators according to the hill.

It looks like McCain is the top of the list. Personally I'd prefer he stayed there.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, I agree with AB.R. Fuck the bastards who fuck their constituents by denying them what the bastards themselves enjoy.

[pulls out hair]

He hasn't done so yet--that's the point, taken together with the fact that this is one of the few Republicans with the cojones to stand up to Trump. At least on occasion.

My Bad, re McCain and those who blocked the bill. Fuck the rest.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Eutychus
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Does this mean the GOP is set to do the US equivalent of invoking Article 50 for Brexit and decree Obamacare dead in two years' time (after the mid-terms) without putting a substitute plan in place? Presumably so that Trump can say he at least delivered on the "repeal" part of his Obamacare pledge?

Do I have that right?

[ 18. July 2017, 05:35: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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mdijon
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Yes, I think that's the idea. It's incredible that someone found an idea even more stupid than Brexit.

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RuthW

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That is already DOA, thanks to Collins, Capito, and Murkowski.

Also, McCain was going to vote for the Senate healthcare bill. McConnell was delaying the August recess so McCain would have time to recover and fly to DC and vote in favor of killing Americans.

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Golden Key
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Then someone needs to approach McCain in the hospital, or soon after, and ask him what he would've done without insurance and without money.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mdijon
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It does seem remarkable. Presumably that is a principled position for him since he's stood up to Trump quite publicly before. They're all mad.

Hopefully the bill is NFR as well as DOA.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, I agree with AB.R. Fuck the bastards who fuck their constituents by denying them what the bastards themselves enjoy.

[pulls out hair]

He hasn't done so yet--that's the point, taken together with the fact that this is one of the few Republicans with the cojones to stand up to Trump. At least on occasion.

My Bad, re McCain and those who blocked the bill. Fuck the rest.
Including those who voted against - Jerry Moran of Kansas and Mike Lee of Utah - apparently because the measures weren't harsh enough on the poor?

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Love wins

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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Meanwhile, it turns out that Senator McCain has brain cancer.

Should give the health care debate an entirely new life.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 10065 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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McCain's wife Cindy is an heiress, and McCain himself (a veteran as well as a Senator) has superb health insurance and pension/benefits that would make you stare. I wish him well, but his situation is not comparable to very many other Americans'. You won't see his family running a GoFundMe drive on the internet to raise money for his medication. I think it was F.Scott Fitzgerald who said that the rich are different from you and me.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 4925 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
He hasn't done so yet--that's the point, taken together with the fact that this is one of the few Republicans with the cojones to stand up to Trump. At least on occasion.

John McCain carefully cultivated (is it too early to be using the past tense?) a reputation as a tough-minded independent, mostly by furrowing his brow and expressing "concerns", followed by voting for whatever his fellow Republicans favored. Given that he voted to approve all of Trump's cabinet secretaries (except for Scott Pruitt, where he bravely didn't vote at all, and Mick Mulvaney, who as the White House Budget Director holds a "cabinet level" position without formally being part of the cabinet) it's hard not to conclude that McCain's "cojones" are seriously over-rated.

A classic (and recent) example of this was McCain's "opposition" to abolishing the filibuster for Supreme Court nominees. After furrowing his brow as deeply as possible and letting everyone know that he 'really' opposed such a move he voted in favor of it.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10181 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It may sound good to the US folks in the steel industry, but it seems to be a really bad idea for everyone else.

It may not even be that good from the perspective of the average *worker* in the steel industry, let alone the wider economic cost. At some point automation will be a viable strategy to further drive up margin, and then this will happen:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-21/how-just-14-people-make-500-000-tons-of-steel-a-year-in-austria

I'm hip, man.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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It is a bit soon to write off Mr. McCain, though a glioblastoma really is a nasty little bugger - with successful treatment, he could live for another year or two. Long enough to be a pain in Trump's arse, anyway, should he be so inclined.

I sympathise - I had a meningioma removed last year, and that was bad enough. Fortunately, meningiomas are, comparatively speaking, the good guys, and mostly non-malignant.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8044 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
wild haggis
Apprentice
# 15555

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This thread has gone a long way from the original post.

Just come through on the radio that Charlie Grad's parents have dropped their court case against Great Ormonde Street Hospital- just before the American peadiatrician was to give his judgement in court.

What a waste of public funds this court case has been. What anguish it has caused to innocent doctors, nurses and patients who have been trolled because of what his parents, in their grief have said about the hospital.

I feel very, very sorry for the parents. It is so tragic when a child has a congenital condition such as Charlie's.

This whole situation could have been avoided had the parents accepted the medical opinion of world experts at the beginning.

Now they should let this poor wee mite go to his maker in peace.

I hope they give their crowd funding money to GOSH after what they said about the doctors.

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wild haggis

Posts: 42 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
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# 17338

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Although much has been made of the reporting in court last week of a "latest scan" which was described as "devastating", it would seem that a lot of this case has hinged around the preparedness of the Gard parents to accept medical fact. The fact that the doctor from the US (on whose experimental treatment the parents had pinned their hopes) concurs with the GOSH medical team about Charlie's medical condition and prognosis appears to have finally opened their eyes.

At the same time, they - or their spokesperson - are still flinging mud at GOSH, stating that "time ran out for Charlie" - in other words, they still don't get that their child's condition was terminal from the get-go.

Meanwhile, far from putting paid to the offensive crowd of "supporters" outside GOSH, this rent-a-crowd mob are now chanting offensively about the judge, the court system and (still) GOSH.

A very, very sad day for Ms Yeats and Mr Gard but the fact remains that some of their more ill-advised statements, even prompted as they may have been by despair at the state of their son, has whipped-up a storm of bigotry and hatred towards a world-class hospital and its staff that is abhorrent. Furthermore, their bullying and hectoring protest aimed at obtaining "justice for Charlie" has (and is) causing acute difficulty and distress to the parents of other sick children in GOSH.

Perhaps the US pastor and pro-life lobbyists who have orchestrated so much of this can now turn their attention to trying to mend the damage they and their intemperate comments have caused.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4520 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
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# 331

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L'organist:
quote:
Perhaps the US pastor and pro-life lobbyists who have orchestrated so much of this can now turn their attention to trying to mend the damage they and their intemperate comments have caused.
Doubt it. First, because mending things is always harder than breaking them. Second, because in their twisted alternate reality they haven't done anything wrong.

...but I'd love to be wrong about this.

[ 24. July 2017, 15:22: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posts: 3733 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Meanwhile, woe, woe, and thrice woe, to the rent-a-crowd 'protesters' etc. Shame on them.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8044 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Yes, I've been shocked at the hostility of the demonstrators to the hospital and the doctors, and the judge of course.

And the right-wing hijacking of the case to damn the NHS. What a miserable blend of ignorance and prejudice.

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no path

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Penny S
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# 14768

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The money will go to a Charlie Gard Foundation.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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So at least some good will, hopefully, come out of this sorry affair.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8044 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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It's so sad.

I do hope that US doctor thinks twice about promising the earth to desperate people in the future.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19099 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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It is reported the doctor had a financial interest in the treatment he was touting¹ - FFS

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¹ Sky News

[ 24. July 2017, 22:19: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19099 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged



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