homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » The Evangelical Worldview (Page 0)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: The Evangelical Worldview
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I wish horrible examples would not turn up daily, of evangelical pastors saying things that make you cringe. Maybe I should become a Unitarian.

That man's theology is so odd that it's difficult to tell whether the website is quoting him with approval or as 'is this man genuine?'. "Right Wing Watch - a Project of People for the American Way" at the top of the webpage implies approval, but the quotations sound like spoofs.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Point taken, mr cheesy. Reminds me of the "will to power' arguments.

A relative scoundrel? [Biased]

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
"Right Wing Watch - a Project of People for the American Way" at the top of the webpage implies approval, but the quotations sound like spoofs.

No, the source "People for the American Way" suggests major disapproval.

The Wiki on People for the American Way.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As I understand it Right Wing Watch seeks out the nuttier of righty pronunciations and links to them so that we may know what they're saying today.

If it were just a gang of loons howling in the back woods nobody would care. But real legislation is being passed that will damage Christianity. A Christian friend of mine sent me this link with the comment, "It really burns me that some of the best comments on abusive religion come from atheists. Where are the Christian leaders?"

Buddhism. Perhaps I should consider it.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
SvitlanaV2 wrote:

quote:
David Voas says it's community not theology that attracts people to church life. Unfortunately, many local, ordinary, moderate churches fail to offer distinctively appealing forms of community. This is unsurprising, because uncertainty, tolerance and individualistic approaches towards doctrines, biblical interpretation and lifestyle - which all have their advantages - don't automatically help to foster close-knit religious communities. Especially not in a demoralised or beleaguered church setting.
Perhaps our shared denominational background makes it unsurprising that SV2s posts make a lot of sense to me. This quote in particular struck me as explaining me somewhat to myself, in terms of what I get from hanging out with a bunch of RCs whose views I often don't share, and to whose positions I don't wish to gravitate, yet around whom I feel an odd sense of something like security. Dead horsemen, here I am, an open goal for accusations of hypocrisy.
To be fair, Methodists and RCs do seem to get on fairly well in general, so I wouldn't call it hypocrisy!

It occurs to me that from a moderate Protestant perspective the the RC 'loses' in terms of its DH stances, but 'gains' in terms of its age, cultural heritage, status, and legacy of numinous and sacramental spirituality. Evangelicalism is far less tolerable because it has many of the same losses but none of the gains.

OTOH, I think there are quite a few theologically moderate Shippies who seem to enjoy hanging out with evangelicals. Perhaps it's similarly a case of seeking security. Perhaps demographics count as well. If a young or even middle aged Methodist wants to meet other Christians of the same age he or she well probably have to mix with evangelicals from another denomination.


quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Evangelicalism generally lacks a decent mechanism for granting people the authority to speak for evangelicals, usually relying on "success" (size of congregation, number of book sales, TV appearances) to make that judgement.

This is one of the things I find it hardest to deal with about the evangelicals who have appointed themselves as saviours of the Church of England, with Svitlana's apparent approval. They such a strong, self-validating sense of calling that they simply steamroller through everything, casting everyone they encounter either under their own wheels or beyond their purview.


Oh, I don't approve, necessarily. I've suggested before that the CofE would be more at peace with itself and with the surrounding society if it had a more consistent liberal or moderate identity, i.e. if the evangelicals left. But despite the unease caused by evangelicalism there seems to be some ambivalence about this solution.

I'm sure there's a genuine commitment to the broad church model, but it also seems that many in the CofE want to have their cake and eat it, extracting whatever might be useful from the evangelical presence, while wishing that evangelicals would fade into the background somehow. I suppose this works in areas where evangelicals are a small, weak constituency, but not where they're growing in numbers and/or self-confidence.

One solution is presented by Linda Woodhead in one of my links above. She says that the CofE should be more like the Lutheran Church of Denmark, which benefits from a church tax levied upon willing members of the population. This gives ordinary Danes a sense of ownership, and large numbers still identify with Christian rituals and festivals, even though weekly church attendance rates are very low. Since the Church is financially secure there's no need to tolerate evangelical 'steamrolling' just because evangelicals have money, or because they keep attendance figures up. High attendance isn't important for the mission or identity of the Church in Danish society.

There are apparently evangelicals in the Danish Lutheran Church, but I assume that the cultural and financial situation discourages them from becoming too pushy.

English society is surely too pluralistic now for a church tax, but the public might be willing to pay a tax towards the upkeep of important historical buildings.

Another much predicted outcome is that the CofE will split. It could be a blessing in disguise. Swap the home-grown evangelicals for the Methodists (whose evangelicals don't 'steamroller' anything) and all the bad PR might be kept to a minimum!

[Devil]

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
As I understand it Right Wing Watch seeks out the nuttier of righty pronunciations and links to them so that we may know what they're saying today.

If it were just a gang of loons howling in the back woods nobody would care. But real legislation is being passed that will damage Christianity. A Christian friend of mine sent me this link with the comment, "It really burns me that some of the best comments on abusive religion come from atheists. Where are the Christian leaders?"

Buddhism. Perhaps I should consider it.

The Pope's robust criticism has been widely-reported - surely your friend has heard of the Pope?? I have never read a comment on abusive religion by an atheist that was particularly insightful - there are people like Rachel Held Evans doing a better job.

Buddhism is not just a bit of yoga and chanting, it's a real religion with its own problems - including fundamentalism. Buddhist sectarian fighters in Sri Lanka have killed thousands. All religions except small indigenous religions have problems with fundamentalism. Equally, all religions have non-fundamentalism and those trying to fight fundamentalism. Rather than just complaining about how terrible things are in American Christianity, why not do something about it? Donate to a progressive Christian campaign. Read Sojourners. Get involved in any campaigns being done by your denomination. Donate to the ACLU. Abandoning Christianity to the far right is by far the easiest and quickest way to make everyone else suffer.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
As I understand it Right Wing Watch seeks out the nuttier of righty pronunciations and links to them so that we may know what they're saying today.

I suspect that you mean pronouncements.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

 - Posted      Profile for balaam   Author's homepage   Email balaam   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
@Pomona.

I'm glad that someone has mentioned Sojourners, sad that it had to be a fellow Brit.

When I read what they are saying I end up thinking, "This is what is being said by Evangelicals in the UK, why is this such a shocking thing for Americans?" It seems there are three very different strands of Evangelical, one of them seems more prominent in the UK. the other in the US. Historically speaking I'd class then this way:

1, Lutherans who use the term Evangelical in their church names.

2, What I'd call the Wesley/Whitefield Evangelical - People had an experience of God, some responded by spreading the word, becoming evangelists, but others did social action: The campaigned against child labour in factories and against the slave trade. They built orphanages and built social housing.

3, Edwards Evangelical - It was been mentioned upthread that Wesley and Whitefield were involved to some extent in the US Great Awakening. More influential IMO was Jonathan Edwards, which has led to a contrary idea that somehow the "social gospel" is not part of the Gospel.

Evangelicalism 2 and 3 have been in conflict from the beginning, which in the 20th Century was epitomised by the disagreements over the so social gospel between John Stott and Billy Graham following the Lausanne Evangelical Congress. But despite their differences Stott and Graham supported each other's ministry.

The sad thing is from the late 1990s and through the 21st Century so far is that these two positions are becoming polarised. There is no longer the same acceptance of one side by the other. This has not been helped by the sloppy use of the tern fundamentalist to refer to people who do not hold to the fundamentals of conservative evangelicalism, as set down in tracts from the 1910s and 20s, (strictly speaking you cannot have a fundamentalist Muslim) and people are using the term evangelical to mean fundamentalist.

Although fundamentalists are evangelicals, all evangelicals are not fundamentalists. (Most in the UK).

What I have said about acceptance pulls both ways. If I am to be consistent then I have to accept people like Frankin Graham as a fellow Christian and fellow Evangelical, despite our very big differences of, well, just about everything. This is not easy.

--------------------
Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Except Whitefield didn't oppose slavery. He was rather in favour of it. Unlike Wesley.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That's the historical-grammatical method for you.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

 - Posted      Profile for balaam   Author's homepage   Email balaam   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Except Whitefield didn't oppose slavery. He was rather in favour of it. Unlike Wesley.

I never said he did, I said "but others did social action: The(y) campaigned against child labour in factories and against the slave trade."

Note the word "others".

--------------------
Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ok, fair enough.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I wonder the extent to which the various forms of Evangelical fed off and were influenced by other movements of the time.

To what extent were social actions a response to the actions of the Quakers, for example? We know that there was a lot of direct links between Evangelicals and other Evangelicals - and other Christian groups cf Salvation Army and Church Army - but I wonder the extent to which the development of various kinds of Evangelical was a response, even a competition with, other groups.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As far as I know, evangelical collaboration on a more organised level dates from around the 1790s, when Anglicans and Dissenters began working together on missionary efforts in the Pacific and the West Indies.

I think it's also the case that Wesleyan influence spilled over into 'Old Dissent' from its Anglican base.

I suspect most influences were informal rather than systematic.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530

 - Posted      Profile for stonespring     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As far as I know, evangelical collaboration on a more organised level dates from around the 1790s, when Anglicans and Dissenters began working together on missionary efforts in the Pacific and the West Indies.

I think it's also the case that Wesleyan influence spilled over into 'Old Dissent' from its Anglican base.

I suspect most influences were informal rather than systematic.

When would historians say that "Evangelicals" as scholars would define first arose? Is it correct to speak of "Evangelicals" among Puritans and Separatists of the early 1600s? What about among Dissenters and Nonconformists in the late 1600s? Do the first Quakers count or were they too different in doctrine from the Evangelicals of the past couple of centuries? Did the phenomenon called Evangelicalism that we recognize today only emerge post-Wesley and post-First Great Awakening?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think this has come up before. I've certainly put a date to it on some of my previous posts - whether on this or other threads I can't remember ...

But I'd date evangelicalism in its recognisably modern-ish form from around the 1730s, with anticipatory antecedents in English and Scottish Puritanism and German Pietism.

Henry D Rack in his impressive biography of John Wesley, 'Rational Enthusiast' dates it from around then, with a trail leading back to Puritan New England and the 2nd and 3rd generations of Reformed Protestants in Scotland.

The early Reformers tended to regard their 'conversion' as a change/move from Romanism. By the 1590s, some of the Reformed believers were beginning to worry about their offspring, particularly their teenagers. So 'preaching for conversion' starts around that time but doesn't become fully developed until the early to mid 1700s.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Evangelicalism generally lacks a decent mechanism for granting people the authority to speak for evangelicals, usually relying on "success" (size of congregation, number of book sales, TV appearances) to make that judgement.

I don't know about that. Just because they don't have a formal structure for enforcing conformity doesn't mean that there aren't Evangelical gatekeepers. For example, let's check in on what Eugene Peterson, mentioned earlier by MrsBeaky, is up to since his recent statement.

quote:
Eugene Peterson backtracks on same-sex marriage

“The Message” author Eugene Peterson says he regrets telling me he would officiate a same-sex wedding if asked to do so today by a gay couple who were “Christians of good faith.”

“On further reflection and prayer, I would like to retract that,” the evangelical author said in a statement.

This article provides some further context.

quote:
Eugene Peterson discovered painfully that the evangelical establishment will immediately seek to destroy anyone who breaks with their understanding of orthodoxy on LGBTQ issues.

Nothing he did before mattered. Nothing else he believes mattered.

The guns were turned on him, posthaste, in a choreography of rejection as public and painful as possible.

This has happened so many times before that the real wonder of events last week was that Rev. Peterson somehow did not anticipate that it would happen to him:


This is evangelical nuclear deterrence, and it works very well most of the time to beat wonderers and wanderers into submission.

Just because the mechanisms of authority are informal doesn't mean those mechanisms aren't there. As they say, read the rest.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Evangelicalism generally lacks a decent mechanism for granting people the authority to speak for evangelicals, usually relying on "success" (size of congregation, number of book sales, TV appearances) to make that judgement.

I don't know about that. Just because they don't have a formal structure for enforcing conformity doesn't mean that there aren't Evangelical gatekeepers. For example, let's check in on what Eugene Peterson, mentioned earlier by MrsBeaky, is up to since his recent statement.

quote:
Eugene Peterson backtracks on same-sex marriage

“The Message” author Eugene Peterson says he regrets telling me he would officiate a same-sex wedding if asked to do so today by a gay couple who were “Christians of good faith.”

“On further reflection and prayer, I would like to retract that,” the evangelical author said in a statement.

This article provides some further context.

quote:
Eugene Peterson discovered painfully that the evangelical establishment will immediately seek to destroy anyone who breaks with their understanding of orthodoxy on LGBTQ issues.

Nothing he did before mattered. Nothing else he believes mattered.

The guns were turned on him, posthaste, in a choreography of rejection as public and painful as possible.

This has happened so many times before that the real wonder of events last week was that Rev. Peterson somehow did not anticipate that it would happen to him:


This is evangelical nuclear deterrence, and it works very well most of the time to beat wonderers and wanderers into submission.

Just because the mechanisms of authority are informal doesn't mean those mechanisms aren't there. As they say, read the rest.

Just pointing out Crœsos, that the (heart-breaking for me) Peterson case seems to exemplify rather than refute Alan's point that evangelicals lack a "decent (i.e. official) mechanism for granting people the authority to speak for evangelicals, usually relying on "success" (size of congregation, number of book sales, TV appearances) to make that judgement." To my knowledge, Peterson has not been rebuked by any official body (NEA being about the only real possibility of such for a PCUSA pastor, and nobody pays much attn to what they say anyway)-- it appears it was in fact the threat of lost book sales that was the decisive factor (to my great dismay-- see thread in hell on the subject).

[ 19. July 2017, 15:31: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Added to which, Petersen is in a position where he gets interviewed and his statements taken as speaking for evangelicals (until he says something a vocal group within evangelicalism take issue with) by exactly the sort of informal process I mentioned - specifically because of the success of The Message. Without that he'd just be one pastor among many, and probably very few beyond his own congregation would have heard of him (especially since he didn't use email, let alone Twitter, Facebook or other social media).

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That LifeWay Christian Stores would immediately add him to their ever-growing banned authors list

I'll just add that to my bucket list...

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804

 - Posted      Profile for Ethne Alba     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh for fecks sake.....the current wave of nauseating pronouncements, from both sides of the pond, are enough to put anyone off exploring a Christian faith.

Why on earth do evangelicals have to be so rude?


( yeah, right, i go to an evangelical church......sigh...)

Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Another Shibboleth seems to be arising on my FB (mostly friends of friends) - unconditional support of Israel. Often hedged with spiritual threats by proof-texting "I will curse those who curse you" implying at includes any criticism of the Israeli State. I find it particularly bizarre how these are often people who insist anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God is toast (Muslims and atheists particularly) yet your get a pass if you're Jewish, where rejection of Jesus' divinity and Messiahship are defining - if you accepted them, you'd be a Christian. It's really odd.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Another Shibboleth seems to be arising on my FB (mostly friends of friends) - unconditional support of Israel. Often hedged with spiritual threats by proof-texting "I will curse those who curse you" implying at includes any criticism of the Israeli State. I find it particularly bizarre how these are often people who insist anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God is toast (Muslims and atheists particularly) yet your get a pass if you're Jewish, where rejection of Jesus' divinity and Messiahship are defining - if you accepted them, you'd be a Christian. It's really odd.

Yeah, this is because so much of Evangelical Christianity is closely linked to Christian Zionism - which incidentally even increasing numbers of Zionists think is toxic.

I suppose the whole theology of the land is something that one might think would be completely against the Evangelical worldview. The idea that there are a particular group of people for whom normal rules do not apply based only on geography would seem to be against the notion that most Evangelicals hold that it doesn't matter who you are before you were saved.

But then I suppose it is a human trait to hold two opposite ideas at the same time.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Also, it boils down to literalism.

To be fair, there are large swathes of evangelicalism that don't go down the Zionist route but it seems to have made a come-back in some quarters here in UK.

My perceptions is that it eased off to some extent in the 1980s and '90s but came back with a vengeance following upheavals in the Middle East over the last few decades.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yeah, this is because so much of Evangelical Christianity is closely linked to Christian Zionism - which incidentally even increasing numbers of Zionists think is toxic.

I'm not sure most Jewish Zionists are comfortable with Christian Zionism, which in effect "uses" the Jews for its own ends. Although to be sure Israel is happy to take money from the USA, which money keeps flowing in part due to Christian Zionism.

quote:
I suppose the whole theology of the land is something that one might think would be completely against the Evangelical worldview. The idea that there are a particular group of people for whom normal rules do not apply based only on geography would seem to be against the notion that most Evangelicals hold that it doesn't matter who you are before you were saved.
But then they have that bifurcated view of Jews as being special ("all Israel will be saved" Paul said, and they take that a certain way). And yet many or most are replacementists, IIRC.

[ 22. July 2017, 19:27: Message edited by: mousethief ]

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
...and the existence and plight of Arab Christians blows their mind, or would if it existed, so they choose to ignore it.

[Disappointed]

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

To be fair, there are large swathes of evangelicalism that don't go down the Zionist route but it seems to have made a come-back in some quarters here in UK.

My impression is that it never really went away, and remained strong in certain parts of Pentecostalism and other denominations (Brethrens for example) which heavily seeded newer movements, and so entire thing came back into prominence.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
...and the existence and plight of Arab Christians blows their mind, or would if it existed, so they choose to ignore it.

[Disappointed]

Having personal friends among those numbers (a family from our church is from Betjala in the occupied territories), this really chaps my ass/arse.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which, Petersen is in a position where he gets interviewed and his statements taken as speaking for evangelicals (until he says something a vocal group within evangelicalism take issue with) by exactly the sort of informal process I mentioned - specifically because of the success of The Message. Without that he'd just be one pastor among many, and probably very few beyond his own congregation would have heard of him (especially since he didn't use email, let alone Twitter, Facebook or other social media).

fyi: Peterson also had a very distinguished academic career

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sure, Chris Stiles. Perhaps the 'restorationist' house churches were an exception to the rule being fairly anti-Zionist. My dotty charismatic evangelical mother-in-law was always mad on Israel (and mad in lots of other ways), in a way that seemed more Brethren or Pentie than anything else.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
in a way that seemed more Brethren or Pentie than anything else.

My impression is that the restorationist movements had a core of people from this background, and over time this increased (as average age went up) with the result that there was a reversion to mean
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which, Petersen is in a position where he gets interviewed and his statements taken as speaking for evangelicals (until he says something a vocal group within evangelicalism take issue with) by exactly the sort of informal process I mentioned - specifically because of the success of The Message. Without that he'd just be one pastor among many, and probably very few beyond his own congregation would have heard of him (especially since he didn't use email, let alone Twitter, Facebook or other social media).

fyi: Peterson also had a very distinguished academic career
Yes, but academics are also, generally, not well known unless they write some popular books. I would still expect that if he hadn't written The Message he would still only be known by a relatively small number of people, wouldn't be getting interviewed and what he said causing a shit storm - because without the popularity of that one book he wouldn't have been put in the position of a spokesperson & leader of Evangelicalism (rather than just for his congregation and a small number of academics).

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
His popularity was well established before The Message, but to your point, it was thru his other (extensive) writing.

(fun fact: my husband called my doctoral thesis an "homage to Peterson" since I quoted just about every one of his many, many books)

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's very, very sad. But to me it implies he hadn't actually moved without reservation. His feet are enmired, his identity is "evangelical" and under pressure he's retreated. Poor guy, despite pushing out the envelope of the text, he's snapped back to a reading of the it as homophobic. Which it isn't. As I have JUST realised. Yesterday. And he couldn't embrace postmodernism and say so what if it were.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yeah, this is because so much of Evangelical Christianity is closely linked to Christian Zionism - which incidentally even increasing numbers of Zionists think is toxic.

I'm not sure most Jewish Zionists are comfortable with Christian Zionism, which in effect "uses" the Jews for its own ends. Although to be sure Israel is happy to take money from the USA, which money keeps flowing in part due to Christian Zionism.

quote:
I suppose the whole theology of the land is something that one might think would be completely against the Evangelical worldview. The idea that there are a particular group of people for whom normal rules do not apply based only on geography would seem to be against the notion that most Evangelicals hold that it doesn't matter who you are before you were saved.
But then they have that bifurcated view of Jews as being special ("all Israel will be saved" Paul said, and they take that a certain way). And yet many or most are replacementists, IIRC.

We've seen it here; posters explaining why Muslims rejecting Jesus as divine and the Messiah means that Allah is not the same as God, whilst Judaism gets a pass for saying exactly the same thing

I have no dog in that fight, as it were, since I don't tie salvation (whatever that might be) to theology and don't take the view that being right about this is an essential, but the point is that evangelicals do, and do make it matter. It seems to me that Evangelicalism, especially of the more conservative variety, has to be supercessionist to be consistent - God sends His Messiah, His own Son, who is Himself God, and those who accept Him are saved. Judaism rejects the divinity and Messiahship of Jesus. I don't get how they square that circle.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
His popularity was well established before The Message, but to your point, it was thru his other (extensive) writing.

Possibly just my UK perspective - that it was after The Message became popular that his other writing became widely known. Most (UK) evangelicals only started taking notice of what he'd written, ie: started to consider him an Evangelical Leader/Spokesperson, because of The Message.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
On a tangent: Yes, I think that's true, Chris Stiles. My dotty mum-in-law is Anglican but her approach is quite Pentie / independent evangelical.

So yes, that kind of note is very prominent in popular evangelicalism.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Having personal friends among those numbers (a family from our church is from Betjala in the occupied territories), this really chaps my ass/arse.

The reason that arab (and other ME) Christians are undermined is more-than-slightly tinged with racism. It's relatively easy to understand overwhelmingly white religious settlers in the occupied territories. Their houses look American, they are interested in things Americans are interested in and they very often speak with American accents.

In contrast Arab Christians speak a funny language, write from the wrong side of the page and believe in that weird new fangled Orthodox malarky. So not really Christians at all.

Never underestimate the stupidity of groups of wealthy Christians when they put their minds to it.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
OTOH, perhaps Arab Christians should be grateful that white fundies aren't interested in them!

The Anglicans and their sister churches might be a better fit.

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

The Anglicans and their sister churches might be a better fit.

Anglicanism is small beer in the ME, Egypt and northern Africa - having said that, when I visited the Anglican cathedral in Cairo it was filled with people - mostly refugees from Sudan and elsewhere.

I'm not sure what the whole "better fit" thing means anyway, but it sounds like gibberish.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Would you really want the 'stupidity' that you mentioned being spread by 'white' Christians across the Middle East? Wouldn't you rather that sensible, rational denominations were offering their assistance?

American evangelicals are often criticised for their attitudes and behaviour in certain sensitive parts of the world. I'm surprised, therefore, that people here would want them to be more involved than they are.

I suppose it's all about the money. If American evangelicals could offer their money but leave their attitudes at home that would be preferable. Unlikely, though.

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
From what my real-life Orthodox contacts tell me, Arab Christians get it in the neck from both sides.

They are disenfranchised by the Greeks who keep clerical power to themselves, they get a raw deal from the Israelis and also have to put up with umpteen shades of shit from US Evangelicals. They get it all round.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Would you really want the 'stupidity' that you mentioned being spread by 'white' Christians across the Middle East? Wouldn't you rather that sensible, rational denominations were offering their assistance?

I'm not sure you've got much knowledge of the Anglican churches in the ME if you think they're sensible and rational. In fact they're riven by in-fighting and corruption. The Anglican primate from Egypt is the most sensible in the region, and he's a big cheese in GAFCON. They might be largely untouched by Christian zionism, but they're clearly making a pig ear of things in various other ways.


quote:
American evangelicals are often criticised for their attitudes and behaviour in certain sensitive parts of the world. I'm surprised, therefore, that people here would want them to be more involved than they are.

I suppose it's all about the money. If American evangelicals could offer their money but leave their attitudes at home that would be preferable. Unlikely, though.

Hard to know how to respond to this. Not all Americans in the ME are Evangelicals, of those not all are zionist. Some ME churches welcome American involvement, some don't.

It's a pretty mixed place with various different people and churches.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was once at a meeting where an American Christian asked an Arab when he had converted. He replied he'd been born into a Christian family. So he was asked if he knew how his parents had converted. After Grandparents were briefly mentioned, they asked when the first Christian in his family might have been. He hazarded at guess at some time around 600-700 AD.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Pity he couldn't claim direct descent from people who had actually met Jesus in the flesh.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Apropros of nothing very much, it is maybe worth remembering that the Sunni Muslim Nusaybah family have held the keys of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre since the 7 century.

It is probably a good thing; that place is a stain on all of Christianity.

[ 23. July 2017, 21:20: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955

 - Posted      Profile for beatmenace   Email beatmenace   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Another Shibboleth seems to be arising on my FB (mostly friends of friends) - unconditional support of Israel. Often hedged with spiritual threats by proof-texting "I will curse those who curse you" implying at includes any criticism of the Israeli State. I find it particularly bizarre how these are often people who insist anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God is toast (Muslims and atheists particularly) yet your get a pass if you're Jewish, where rejection of Jesus' divinity and Messiahship are defining - if you accepted them, you'd be a Christian. It's really odd.

Yeah, this is because so much of Evangelical Christianity is closely linked to Christian Zionism - which incidentally even increasing numbers of Zionists think is toxic.

I suppose the whole theology of the land is something that one might think would be completely against the Evangelical worldview. The idea that there are a particular group of people for whom normal rules do not apply based only on geography would seem to be against the notion that most Evangelicals hold that it doesn't matter who you are before you were saved.

But then I suppose it is a human trait to hold two opposite ideas at the same time.

And also that Israel has the most liberal abortion laws in the Middle East (and probably most of Europe), - permissable up to 40 weeks and a 'rubber stamp' approach to the process.

The very sort of thing which got Evangelicals very upset with one Hillary Clinton last year. Althought here was no indication Hillary wanted to change existing law , she was , reportedly , in favour of 'Full Term Abortion' (no sources cited obviously).

Since Abortion was the hot button issue which secured Evangelical support for Trump, and hence the Presidency , it seems like Cognitive Dissenence on a mind boggling scale.

--------------------
"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)

Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Fortunately for the Christian Right (at least in the US), they now can obviate cognitive dissonance by simply dismissing evidence that contradicts their desired conclusions with the sobriquet "fake news."

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure you've got much knowledge of the Anglican churches in the ME if you think they're sensible and rational. In fact they're riven by in-fighting and corruption.

[...]

Not all Americans in the ME are Evangelicals, of those not all are zionist. Some ME churches welcome American involvement, some don't.

It's a pretty mixed place with various different people and churches.



I thought your original criticism was of foreign Christians who were too focused on Israel to be interested in helping Arab Christians. I presume this doesn't include Christians who are actually based in Arab-speaking countries and regions.

Re overseas 'Anglicans and their sister churches', I was thinking of the kind who are heavily into social justice. Perhaps, say, Canadian Anglicans and Norwegian Lutherans.

I'm well aware that there are different kinds of American evangelical, but your post referred to the 'stupidity of groups of wealthy Christians' who identified with Americanised Israelis. I'm just saying you should be glad if American evangelicals of this type stay away from Arab Christians. As you say, the latter have plenty of their own problems!

Finally, your mention of the GAFCON man in Egypt is interesting. My view is that our theology is based to a large extent on our circumstances and environment, and ISTM that in a country where a strict and assertive Islam is the norm, local Christian groups may compete by offering their own strong, conservative voice. The niche for a moderate or theologically liberal Anglicanism in such environments is probably quite small. But I'd be keen to learn more about that, as I'm sure the situation is quite complex.

[ 25. July 2017, 12:29: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is an article from the Washington POST. Their top conservative columnist calls out evangelicals on their hypocrisy, supporting the current president. She rightly points out that his behavior is spectacularly unlike that of Christ, diametrically opposite in fact.
She concludes: "Was this trashing of the White House, assault on civil language and conduct and contempt for the Constitution (the one the religious right thinks is so important that the new Supreme Court justice must protect it) worth it? And if it gets worse, is there any point at which the religious might put country above tribe, morality above partisanship? No, I don’t think it will do so ever."
People can recognize whited sepulchers.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools