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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Evangelical Worldview
Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Added to which, Petersen is in a position where he gets interviewed and his statements taken as speaking for evangelicals (until he says something a vocal group within evangelicalism take issue with) by exactly the sort of informal process I mentioned - specifically because of the success of The Message. Without that he'd just be one pastor among many, and probably very few beyond his own congregation would have heard of him (especially since he didn't use email, let alone Twitter, Facebook or other social media).

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That LifeWay Christian Stores would immediately add him to their ever-growing banned authors list

I'll just add that to my bucket list...

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Forward the New Republic

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Ethne Alba
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Oh for fecks sake.....the current wave of nauseating pronouncements, from both sides of the pond, are enough to put anyone off exploring a Christian faith.

Why on earth do evangelicals have to be so rude?


( yeah, right, i go to an evangelical church......sigh...)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Another Shibboleth seems to be arising on my FB (mostly friends of friends) - unconditional support of Israel. Often hedged with spiritual threats by proof-texting "I will curse those who curse you" implying at includes any criticism of the Israeli State. I find it particularly bizarre how these are often people who insist anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God is toast (Muslims and atheists particularly) yet your get a pass if you're Jewish, where rejection of Jesus' divinity and Messiahship are defining - if you accepted them, you'd be a Christian. It's really odd.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Another Shibboleth seems to be arising on my FB (mostly friends of friends) - unconditional support of Israel. Often hedged with spiritual threats by proof-texting "I will curse those who curse you" implying at includes any criticism of the Israeli State. I find it particularly bizarre how these are often people who insist anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God is toast (Muslims and atheists particularly) yet your get a pass if you're Jewish, where rejection of Jesus' divinity and Messiahship are defining - if you accepted them, you'd be a Christian. It's really odd.

Yeah, this is because so much of Evangelical Christianity is closely linked to Christian Zionism - which incidentally even increasing numbers of Zionists think is toxic.

I suppose the whole theology of the land is something that one might think would be completely against the Evangelical worldview. The idea that there are a particular group of people for whom normal rules do not apply based only on geography would seem to be against the notion that most Evangelicals hold that it doesn't matter who you are before you were saved.

But then I suppose it is a human trait to hold two opposite ideas at the same time.

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Gamaliel
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Also, it boils down to literalism.

To be fair, there are large swathes of evangelicalism that don't go down the Zionist route but it seems to have made a come-back in some quarters here in UK.

My perceptions is that it eased off to some extent in the 1980s and '90s but came back with a vengeance following upheavals in the Middle East over the last few decades.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yeah, this is because so much of Evangelical Christianity is closely linked to Christian Zionism - which incidentally even increasing numbers of Zionists think is toxic.

I'm not sure most Jewish Zionists are comfortable with Christian Zionism, which in effect "uses" the Jews for its own ends. Although to be sure Israel is happy to take money from the USA, which money keeps flowing in part due to Christian Zionism.

quote:
I suppose the whole theology of the land is something that one might think would be completely against the Evangelical worldview. The idea that there are a particular group of people for whom normal rules do not apply based only on geography would seem to be against the notion that most Evangelicals hold that it doesn't matter who you are before you were saved.
But then they have that bifurcated view of Jews as being special ("all Israel will be saved" Paul said, and they take that a certain way). And yet many or most are replacementists, IIRC.

[ 22. July 2017, 19:27: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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ThunderBunk

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...and the existence and plight of Arab Christians blows their mind, or would if it existed, so they choose to ignore it.

[Disappointed]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

To be fair, there are large swathes of evangelicalism that don't go down the Zionist route but it seems to have made a come-back in some quarters here in UK.

My impression is that it never really went away, and remained strong in certain parts of Pentecostalism and other denominations (Brethrens for example) which heavily seeded newer movements, and so entire thing came back into prominence.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
...and the existence and plight of Arab Christians blows their mind, or would if it existed, so they choose to ignore it.

[Disappointed]

Having personal friends among those numbers (a family from our church is from Betjala in the occupied territories), this really chaps my ass/arse.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which, Petersen is in a position where he gets interviewed and his statements taken as speaking for evangelicals (until he says something a vocal group within evangelicalism take issue with) by exactly the sort of informal process I mentioned - specifically because of the success of The Message. Without that he'd just be one pastor among many, and probably very few beyond his own congregation would have heard of him (especially since he didn't use email, let alone Twitter, Facebook or other social media).

fyi: Peterson also had a very distinguished academic career

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Gamaliel
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Sure, Chris Stiles. Perhaps the 'restorationist' house churches were an exception to the rule being fairly anti-Zionist. My dotty charismatic evangelical mother-in-law was always mad on Israel (and mad in lots of other ways), in a way that seemed more Brethren or Pentie than anything else.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
in a way that seemed more Brethren or Pentie than anything else.

My impression is that the restorationist movements had a core of people from this background, and over time this increased (as average age went up) with the result that there was a reversion to mean
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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which, Petersen is in a position where he gets interviewed and his statements taken as speaking for evangelicals (until he says something a vocal group within evangelicalism take issue with) by exactly the sort of informal process I mentioned - specifically because of the success of The Message. Without that he'd just be one pastor among many, and probably very few beyond his own congregation would have heard of him (especially since he didn't use email, let alone Twitter, Facebook or other social media).

fyi: Peterson also had a very distinguished academic career
Yes, but academics are also, generally, not well known unless they write some popular books. I would still expect that if he hadn't written The Message he would still only be known by a relatively small number of people, wouldn't be getting interviewed and what he said causing a shit storm - because without the popularity of that one book he wouldn't have been put in the position of a spokesperson & leader of Evangelicalism (rather than just for his congregation and a small number of academics).

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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His popularity was well established before The Message, but to your point, it was thru his other (extensive) writing.

(fun fact: my husband called my doctoral thesis an "homage to Peterson" since I quoted just about every one of his many, many books)

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Martin60
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It's very, very sad. But to me it implies he hadn't actually moved without reservation. His feet are enmired, his identity is "evangelical" and under pressure he's retreated. Poor guy, despite pushing out the envelope of the text, he's snapped back to a reading of the it as homophobic. Which it isn't. As I have JUST realised. Yesterday. And he couldn't embrace postmodernism and say so what if it were.

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Love wins

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yeah, this is because so much of Evangelical Christianity is closely linked to Christian Zionism - which incidentally even increasing numbers of Zionists think is toxic.

I'm not sure most Jewish Zionists are comfortable with Christian Zionism, which in effect "uses" the Jews for its own ends. Although to be sure Israel is happy to take money from the USA, which money keeps flowing in part due to Christian Zionism.

quote:
I suppose the whole theology of the land is something that one might think would be completely against the Evangelical worldview. The idea that there are a particular group of people for whom normal rules do not apply based only on geography would seem to be against the notion that most Evangelicals hold that it doesn't matter who you are before you were saved.
But then they have that bifurcated view of Jews as being special ("all Israel will be saved" Paul said, and they take that a certain way). And yet many or most are replacementists, IIRC.

We've seen it here; posters explaining why Muslims rejecting Jesus as divine and the Messiah means that Allah is not the same as God, whilst Judaism gets a pass for saying exactly the same thing

I have no dog in that fight, as it were, since I don't tie salvation (whatever that might be) to theology and don't take the view that being right about this is an essential, but the point is that evangelicals do, and do make it matter. It seems to me that Evangelicalism, especially of the more conservative variety, has to be supercessionist to be consistent - God sends His Messiah, His own Son, who is Himself God, and those who accept Him are saved. Judaism rejects the divinity and Messiahship of Jesus. I don't get how they square that circle.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
His popularity was well established before The Message, but to your point, it was thru his other (extensive) writing.

Possibly just my UK perspective - that it was after The Message became popular that his other writing became widely known. Most (UK) evangelicals only started taking notice of what he'd written, ie: started to consider him an Evangelical Leader/Spokesperson, because of The Message.

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Gamaliel
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On a tangent: Yes, I think that's true, Chris Stiles. My dotty mum-in-law is Anglican but her approach is quite Pentie / independent evangelical.

So yes, that kind of note is very prominent in popular evangelicalism.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Having personal friends among those numbers (a family from our church is from Betjala in the occupied territories), this really chaps my ass/arse.

The reason that arab (and other ME) Christians are undermined is more-than-slightly tinged with racism. It's relatively easy to understand overwhelmingly white religious settlers in the occupied territories. Their houses look American, they are interested in things Americans are interested in and they very often speak with American accents.

In contrast Arab Christians speak a funny language, write from the wrong side of the page and believe in that weird new fangled Orthodox malarky. So not really Christians at all.

Never underestimate the stupidity of groups of wealthy Christians when they put their minds to it.

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arse

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SvitlanaV2
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OTOH, perhaps Arab Christians should be grateful that white fundies aren't interested in them!

The Anglicans and their sister churches might be a better fit.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

The Anglicans and their sister churches might be a better fit.

Anglicanism is small beer in the ME, Egypt and northern Africa - having said that, when I visited the Anglican cathedral in Cairo it was filled with people - mostly refugees from Sudan and elsewhere.

I'm not sure what the whole "better fit" thing means anyway, but it sounds like gibberish.

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arse

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SvitlanaV2
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Would you really want the 'stupidity' that you mentioned being spread by 'white' Christians across the Middle East? Wouldn't you rather that sensible, rational denominations were offering their assistance?

American evangelicals are often criticised for their attitudes and behaviour in certain sensitive parts of the world. I'm surprised, therefore, that people here would want them to be more involved than they are.

I suppose it's all about the money. If American evangelicals could offer their money but leave their attitudes at home that would be preferable. Unlikely, though.

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Gamaliel
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From what my real-life Orthodox contacts tell me, Arab Christians get it in the neck from both sides.

They are disenfranchised by the Greeks who keep clerical power to themselves, they get a raw deal from the Israelis and also have to put up with umpteen shades of shit from US Evangelicals. They get it all round.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Would you really want the 'stupidity' that you mentioned being spread by 'white' Christians across the Middle East? Wouldn't you rather that sensible, rational denominations were offering their assistance?

I'm not sure you've got much knowledge of the Anglican churches in the ME if you think they're sensible and rational. In fact they're riven by in-fighting and corruption. The Anglican primate from Egypt is the most sensible in the region, and he's a big cheese in GAFCON. They might be largely untouched by Christian zionism, but they're clearly making a pig ear of things in various other ways.


quote:
American evangelicals are often criticised for their attitudes and behaviour in certain sensitive parts of the world. I'm surprised, therefore, that people here would want them to be more involved than they are.

I suppose it's all about the money. If American evangelicals could offer their money but leave their attitudes at home that would be preferable. Unlikely, though.

Hard to know how to respond to this. Not all Americans in the ME are Evangelicals, of those not all are zionist. Some ME churches welcome American involvement, some don't.

It's a pretty mixed place with various different people and churches.

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arse

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mdijon
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I was once at a meeting where an American Christian asked an Arab when he had converted. He replied he'd been born into a Christian family. So he was asked if he knew how his parents had converted. After Grandparents were briefly mentioned, they asked when the first Christian in his family might have been. He hazarded at guess at some time around 600-700 AD.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Alan Cresswell

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Pity he couldn't claim direct descent from people who had actually met Jesus in the flesh.

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mr cheesy
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Apropros of nothing very much, it is maybe worth remembering that the Sunni Muslim Nusaybah family have held the keys of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre since the 7 century.

It is probably a good thing; that place is a stain on all of Christianity.

[ 23. July 2017, 21:20: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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beatmenace
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Another Shibboleth seems to be arising on my FB (mostly friends of friends) - unconditional support of Israel. Often hedged with spiritual threats by proof-texting "I will curse those who curse you" implying at includes any criticism of the Israeli State. I find it particularly bizarre how these are often people who insist anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God is toast (Muslims and atheists particularly) yet your get a pass if you're Jewish, where rejection of Jesus' divinity and Messiahship are defining - if you accepted them, you'd be a Christian. It's really odd.

Yeah, this is because so much of Evangelical Christianity is closely linked to Christian Zionism - which incidentally even increasing numbers of Zionists think is toxic.

I suppose the whole theology of the land is something that one might think would be completely against the Evangelical worldview. The idea that there are a particular group of people for whom normal rules do not apply based only on geography would seem to be against the notion that most Evangelicals hold that it doesn't matter who you are before you were saved.

But then I suppose it is a human trait to hold two opposite ideas at the same time.

And also that Israel has the most liberal abortion laws in the Middle East (and probably most of Europe), - permissable up to 40 weeks and a 'rubber stamp' approach to the process.

The very sort of thing which got Evangelicals very upset with one Hillary Clinton last year. Althought here was no indication Hillary wanted to change existing law , she was , reportedly , in favour of 'Full Term Abortion' (no sources cited obviously).

Since Abortion was the hot button issue which secured Evangelical support for Trump, and hence the Presidency , it seems like Cognitive Dissenence on a mind boggling scale.

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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)

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mousethief

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Fortunately for the Christian Right (at least in the US), they now can obviate cognitive dissonance by simply dismissing evidence that contradicts their desired conclusions with the sobriquet "fake news."

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure you've got much knowledge of the Anglican churches in the ME if you think they're sensible and rational. In fact they're riven by in-fighting and corruption.

[...]

Not all Americans in the ME are Evangelicals, of those not all are zionist. Some ME churches welcome American involvement, some don't.

It's a pretty mixed place with various different people and churches.



I thought your original criticism was of foreign Christians who were too focused on Israel to be interested in helping Arab Christians. I presume this doesn't include Christians who are actually based in Arab-speaking countries and regions.

Re overseas 'Anglicans and their sister churches', I was thinking of the kind who are heavily into social justice. Perhaps, say, Canadian Anglicans and Norwegian Lutherans.

I'm well aware that there are different kinds of American evangelical, but your post referred to the 'stupidity of groups of wealthy Christians' who identified with Americanised Israelis. I'm just saying you should be glad if American evangelicals of this type stay away from Arab Christians. As you say, the latter have plenty of their own problems!

Finally, your mention of the GAFCON man in Egypt is interesting. My view is that our theology is based to a large extent on our circumstances and environment, and ISTM that in a country where a strict and assertive Islam is the norm, local Christian groups may compete by offering their own strong, conservative voice. The niche for a moderate or theologically liberal Anglicanism in such environments is probably quite small. But I'd be keen to learn more about that, as I'm sure the situation is quite complex.

[ 25. July 2017, 12:29: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Brenda Clough
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This is an article from the Washington POST. Their top conservative columnist calls out evangelicals on their hypocrisy, supporting the current president. She rightly points out that his behavior is spectacularly unlike that of Christ, diametrically opposite in fact.
She concludes: "Was this trashing of the White House, assault on civil language and conduct and contempt for the Constitution (the one the religious right thinks is so important that the new Supreme Court justice must protect it) worth it? And if it gets worse, is there any point at which the religious might put country above tribe, morality above partisanship? No, I don’t think it will do so ever."
People can recognize whited sepulchers.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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