homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » The Parish as place of identification (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: The Parish as place of identification
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Church in Wales is planning to abandon its parochial organisation. Or so I have read. Anyone from Wales like to comment? Not sure it would be a good idea anywhere, but then other denominations have never had parishes anyway.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34521 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not sure that was the link intended. Not from Wales either, but the parish system in general has been in my thoughts.

I think the parish system has value, but I think being part of an on-paper parish is less important than having a "local" church. A church that is part of its local community, that serves that community and draws strength from it. The parish system, done well, is one way of achieving that. It breaks down if parishes become too large, and the "local" church building is in the next town, or too small, and church becomes a retail choice of different "offers" from a range of brands even within one denomination. For all the trials of being part of a "local" church, amplified for me when said church is not of my own denomination, there is great value and spiritual growth to be found in building the Kingdom alongside whatever motley crew God has assembled, rather than picking and choosing your companions on the Way.

[ 12. July 2017, 07:30: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

Posts: 2705 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't know what it is like in other parts of Wales, but here in the Valleys, the Anglican parochial system seems to be essentially breaking down of its own accord. In my parish there are three church buildings - one not used at all, two used on alternate weeks - with small congregations and no clergy. I think it is tied together with other parishes over quite a wide geographical area, but the end effect in this parish seems to be that a Reader does all the work and one almost never has clergy leading.

Talking to people in churches elsewhere, it appears that the diocese is making efforts to replace gaps with non-stip ministers (I think they're called locally supported ministers or something) who are attached to individual parishes or churches but are not necessarily ordained (or maybe are in the process of being trained and ordained). It appears that the workload for these is very high and that the diocese seems to believe that they'll burn out in 5 to 10 years (which is a weird thing to say to anyone, volunteer or not, in my opinion).

My suspicion is that within that 5 to 10 year period the thing will become unviable so there will effectively be places where there is no Anglican provision at all.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 9021 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Having only recently moved to Wales I can't really answer. However I have a few points.

1. I looked through the online records of the last few meetings of the CinW Governing Body and I can't find anything to suggest that he parish system is to be abolished. However, as it happens, a member of my church is a member of the Governing Body; I'll be seeing her tonight and will ask her!

2. As Mr. Cheesy says, the parish system isn't really working in the CofE and the CinW - whether we like it or not, people are likely to go to the church they "like" even if it's not the one they're "supposed" to go to. We also need to remember that the CinW has not been established for nearly a century which means that the parish system may not have quite the same influence it does in England.

3. There is also the issue of the Covenant, which has been around since 1975 and was restated in the Trefecca Declaration of 2011 and the Aberystwyth Gathering of 2012. This was really an attempt to unite all the churches of Wales into one super-denomination, what seemed the inevitable goal of ecumenism in the 50s and 60s. That of course hasn't happened.

However two more modest goals have been stated (but I don't know how well they work): one was the idea of having one church open for worship each week in every community, though not necessarily of any particular denomination; the other (very necessary if this was to happen) was the interchangeability of ordained ministers between the various denominations. Apart from within some LEPs and Ecumenical Areas (and the ones I know of are running out of steam), I don't know how far this has been achieved. What I do know is that the Commission of Covenanted Churches is having a good think about its future role.

4. I think a lot will depend on moves within the Episcopacy in the short-term. The new Bishop of Llandaff will be enthroned in a fortnight and I believe I am right in saying that the Bench of Bishops has to then choose an Archbishop from amongst themselves - but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Posts: 8763 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:


2. As Mr. Cheesy says, the parish system isn't really working in the CofE and the CinW - whether we like it or not, people are likely to go to the church they "like" even if it's not the one they're "supposed" to go to. We also need to remember that the CinW has not been established for nearly a century which means that the parish system may not have quite the same influence it does in England.


I think I'm correct in saying that residents have wedding and burial rights in Anglican parishes in Wales as they do in England - although in practice this might not amount to very much if there are limited clergy (and in our case, none of the churches have burial grounds around here).

[ 12. July 2017, 08:10: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 9021 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've not lived in The Land of My Fathers for many years, but what mr cheesy and Baptist Trainfan are saying sounds about right ...

Although it's not just Wales of course. Naming no names but a town not far from us up here in the North West of England which introduced a Team Parish arrangement a good few years ago has found that the whole thing has essentially imploded and that there's only the 'central' evangelical church in the Team Parish and a small Anglo-Catholic parish that refused to join that are still viable ... but for how long?

That means that they have church buildings that are surplus to requirements which will only be opened for weddings and funerals - although there are plans to develop one as some kind of community centre.

I'm sure there are similar things going on elsewhere, up and down the country.

On the CinW and Disestablishment ... to all intents and purposes I've never really noticed any difference between the CinW as a Disestablished Anglican body and the CofE as an Established one.

Nobody seems to have noticed, even after a century.

CinW clergy have told me that the CinW 'acts' as if it's still Established ...

As far as people who attend church irregularly go, they wouldn't notice any difference whatsoever whether the CinW is Established or otherwise.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15088 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
CinW clergy have told me that the CinW 'acts' as if it's still Established ...

Other clergy have echoed that ...
Posts: 8763 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There was a Report froma trio of worthies a few years ago about the future of the CinW.

Can't be bothered to read it again but AFAIR it recommended moving away from historic parishes towards a system of ministerial areas based on high school catchments. Also some predictable stuff about working with other denominations, promoting non-stipendiary and lay ministry etc.

No idea how much if any of this will ever happen. Certainly it can be difficult enough to get Anglican churches to co-operate with each other, even within the same parish. Also the CinW has historically been very sacerdotal, with lay people's role being very much to fill the pews and put a fiver in the plate. With some honourable exceptions, far too many clergy pay lip service to collaborative ministry, without really believing in it, or doing much to promote it. Some don't even do that.

Finally there is an irritating historical obsession with DH issues.

There seem to be some large and thriving Anglo-evo shacks in the big cities, but I give them a very wide berth.

Posts: 319 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
gog
Shipmate
# 15615

 - Posted      Profile for gog   Author's homepage   Email gog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not being in the CinW but knowing a little of what is going on.

Much of this is part of the Vision 2020 plan.

Partly it is looking at the reality of less clergy and other resources and how to do things different.

The idea is moving to team ministries, in some dioceses this will be a multi parish work; in others the parishes have been merged into new super parishes. Again this was in part already happening but has just been formalised and sped up a little.

Posts: 99 | From: somewhere over the border | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Gallica officinalis
Shipmate
# 3886

 - Posted      Profile for Rosa Gallica officinalis   Email Rosa Gallica officinalis   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm a vicar in the CinW. (recently moved from CofE) What is actually going on here is similar to what is happening across many diocese in England (15-20 years later) forming groups of parishes encouraging them to work together, share resources etc. In Wales they are either being called Ministry Areas or in one diocese Mission Areas.

The difference in Wales is that we are bound by the constitution of the CinW- which only recognises Parishes, Deaneries, Dioceses and the national body.
In an ideal world the constitution would have been changed 20+ years ago-but it seems there was denial about the impending crisis. Current attendance figures predict the closure of the C in W before 2040. (The previous incumbent here tells me that when a speaker at clergy conference showed a slide with the graphs, the then bishop demanded it was taken down and said “I don’t want my clergy seeing these”)

MA councils need to have some of the powers of a Parochial Church Council, so the only way to make them work within the current constitution is to merge all of the parishes in the MA into a single parish, with the intention that it will function somewhat closer to an English “team ministry.”

Our MA is co-terminus with the existing deanery, because it made sense in terms of everyone relating to the market town and high school. Other deaneries have split into multiple MAs according to natural relationships between villages.

Interestingly unlike England we do not have reliable maps of parish boundaries- one of the exercises our archdeacons are currently engaged in is establishing the boundaries of the new MAs- endeavouring to make sure that they actually make sense. I think we’re re-structuring rather than abandoning the parish system.

--------------------
Come for tea, come for tea, my people.

Posts: 861 | From: The Hemlock Hideout | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504

 - Posted      Profile for St. Gwladys   Email St. Gwladys   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A Valleys girl, active in our parish (PCC member) and married to a reader, I hadn't heard anything about abandoning parishes.
We're currently in an interregnum, but even before that, there had been a lot of talk about ministry areas.
The problem is that we are an extremely low parish in a moderately high deanery in a generally high diocese. If we were to join up to any other low parish in the same geographical area, it would mean working across the diocese boundaries.

--------------------
"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)

Posts: 3251 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
wabale
Apprentice
# 18715

 - Posted      Profile for wabale   Author's homepage   Email wabale   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

Talking to people in churches elsewhere, it appears that the diocese is making efforts to replace gaps with non-stip ministers (I think they're called locally supported ministers or something) who are attached to individual parishes or churches but are not necessarily ordained (or maybe are in the process of being trained and ordained). It appears that the workload for these is very high and that the diocese seems to believe that they'll burn out in 5 to 10 years (which is a weird thing to say to anyone, volunteer or not, in my opinion).


Here on another corner of our island, a similar pattern is emerging. My Mrs receives her certificate at the Cathedral tonight for completing her two year Course in Christian Studies, and she’s about to train for two more years as a Licenced Lay Minister (plus another year’s research) by which time she will have received a much more professional training than I did as a Reader. (They didn’t mention burn-out during her vocational interviews!) Meanwhile our local ‘Unit’ is beginning to become a reality. This is all good, and I am in many ways encouraged by our Bishop and the Diocesan Plan.
However, I still believe, as I have believed for the last 50 years, that the graph will continue to fall until 'God’s frozen people' are ‘unfrozen’.

Posts: 40 | From: Essex, United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2017  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by wabale:
Here on another corner of our island, a similar pattern is emerging. My Mrs receives her certificate at the Cathedral tonight for completing her two year Course in Christian Studies, and she’s about to train for two more years as a Licenced Lay Minister (plus another year’s research) by which time she will have received a much more professional training than I did as a Reader. (They didn’t mention burn-out during her vocational interviews!) Meanwhile our local ‘Unit’ is beginning to become a reality. This is all good, and I am in many ways encouraged by our Bishop and the Diocesan Plan.

No disrespect intended - the training sounds pretty good. The thing that bothers me more is that lack of support from the diocese and the expectations that the lay leaders will work long hours, basically doing the job of a vicar without any of the benefits, until they drop down with exhaustion.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 9021 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
wabale
Apprentice
# 18715

 - Posted      Profile for wabale   Author's homepage   Email wabale   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
No disrespect intended - the training sounds pretty good. The thing that bothers me more is that lack of support from the diocese and the expectations that the lay leaders will work long hours, basically doing the job of a vicar without any of the benefits, until they drop down with exhaustion.

Exactly. I fear it will end not with a bang but a lot of whimpering.
When the professional Byzantine army faced destruction at the hands of hordes of barbarians, they saved the state by conscripting the peasants. Just a thought.

Posts: 40 | From: Essex, United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2017  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thank you to Rocinante for providing the link to information about 'Ministry Areas'. They sound rather like Exeter Diocese's 'Mission Communities' - the previous bishop said that all parishes had to group themselves together, voluntarily ideally rather than being told who to work with. It is my understanding that some Mission Communities have worked better than others, mainly due to staffing issues - personal, co-operational, workload difficulties, and differences in churchmanship.

For myself, I like the idea of parishes, especially in rural areas, but must admit that, due to churchmanship differences, I have and will in the future attend a church out of area.
This is, of course, a modern luxury due to individual availability of transport.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34521 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827

 - Posted      Profile for Cathscats   Email Cathscats   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What Wales is doing sounds a bit like the "Hub Ministries" which are the current buzz word in the Church of Scotland. Though they are more a word (OK two words) than a fact, as the CofS is non-episcopal, (Presbyterian) and every congregation or formal group of congregations (linkage) has the right to call their own minister, and if Hubs make that group larger, by introducing appointed (non-called) assistant ministers and other parish workers to work alongside the parish minister, then the chances of about 5 or 6 different congregations agreeing on a parish minister get more and more remote. As part of a Presbytery which is actively working towards this system, I can see the pros and cons. We do need to change how we do church and think about church and organise church. On the other hand it seems a pity to do it here, very local here, my here, when in this here of mine the parish system works very well, and the church and minister are seen as "ours" by the whole community. (Of course the support in terms of attendance, giving and so on does not back this sense of ownership!) But that is Nimbyism, isn't it?
We are told that Hub Ministry will do more than simply manage decline, but while I can see the logic of going that way, I cannot see that the "not just managing decline" thing is a given.

--------------------
"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")

Posts: 133 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013  |  IP: Logged
andras
Shipmate
# 2065

 - Posted      Profile for andras   Email andras   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
From what I can see it's basically a reinvention of the Methodist Circuit system, which has always seem to work pretty well.

But the CinW - and the Anglican Communion generally - need to understand how to use lay folk properly and - most important of all - how to train them well. An excellent local lady who was ordained Deacon a little while ago, and whose High Church leanings are such that she gets upset if the altar candles are lit in the wrong order, is nonetheless totally at sea when discussing the Old Testament, concerning which she seems to know almost nothing at all.

How can that be allowed to happen?

--------------------
God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass

Posts: 409 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jack the Lass

Ship's airhead
# 3415

 - Posted      Profile for Jack the Lass   Author's homepage   Email Jack the Lass   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This seems as good a place as any to plug the hot-off-the-press (launched this week) new book by sometime-Ship columnist (and my former vicar) Andrew Rumsey: Parish: An Anglican Theology of Place.

Here in Scotland the Anglicans already operate without a parish system. Kelvin Holdsworth touches upon this in his latest blog post (which is specifically about CofE vicars tempted to move north)
here.

--------------------
"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog

Posts: 5743 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827

 - Posted      Profile for Cathscats   Email Cathscats   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Here is Scotland they can get quite cross if referred to as "Anglicans" when they are Episcopalians, and not some offshoot of "the English Church" that has wandered north (though from talking to some Episcopalian Ordinands this week, I gather that the SEC is almost being held afloat by former Anglicans).

--------------------
"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")

Posts: 133 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
But doesn't the Church of Scotland have parishes?

In Scotland, aren't piskies as much dissenters as the wee frees?

And I've always got the impression that the rare Presbyterian Churches in England - though not Wales which I think does have a Presbyterian Church of its own - are as much expatriate communities as the even rarer Lutherans are.

Many years ago, I drove past a Southern Baptist Church somewhere in eastern England, but that was clearly, even from its style of architecture, very much an expatriate outpost. I think there was a US airbase somewhere in the are.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7094 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827

 - Posted      Profile for Cathscats   Email Cathscats   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, the whole of Scotland is divided into Parishes for which the Church of Scotland is the national church.

I have never heard the SEC or indeed the RCC or Baptists called "dissenters" in these parts, though. Seems to be mainly a southern term.

--------------------
"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")

Posts: 133 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's not much used in England, either. "Nonconformists" is more common although, I suspect, falling out of use - and doesn't, of course, include the RCs.
Posts: 8763 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

 - Posted      Profile for SusanDoris   Author's homepage   Email SusanDoris   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nowadays we all know our post codes, but I never hear anyone talk about their 'parish'. I wonder whether it is only those closely associated with administrative work in a particular church who would use the word much at all. An understanding of what a parish is and whether it is stillrelevant in any important way is a matter of history to most people it seems to me. I listen to 'Sunday' on Radio 4 occasionally but cannot remember the word being used for ages. in any relevant manner I will listen out ...
Edited a couple of typos

[ 13. July 2017, 14:14: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 2864 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Nowadays we all know our post codes, but I never hear anyone talk about their 'parish'.

Come to Louisiana. Although of course the word is being used in a different sense.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62437 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
hatless

Shipmate
# 3365

 - Posted      Profile for hatless   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
It's not much used in England, either. "Nonconformists" is more common although, I suspect, falling out of use - and doesn't, of course, include the RCs.

Some RCs like to call themselves non-conformists.

--------------------
My crazy theology in novel form

Posts: 4438 | From: Chingestorp | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In the UK, elected Parish Councillors will, of course, talk about their 'parish', but this often means the civil rather than ecclesiastical entity - the two are by no means always the same!

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8032 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
This seems as good a place as any to plug the hot-off-the-press (launched this week) new book by sometime-Ship columnist (and my former vicar) Andrew Rumsey: Parish: An Anglican Theology of Place.

That is exactly the book I linked to in the OP. Great minds think alike. [Smile]

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34521 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
In the UK, elected Parish Councillors will, of course, talk about their 'parish', but this often means the civil rather than ecclesiastical entity - the two are by no means always the same!

IJ

No but in large amounts of the English countryside they are basically the same geographical area - to the extent that if one talks about something happening "in the parish" it is doesn't really matter if it is the civil or church designation.

In urban areas on doesn't normally have a parish council (usually there is only one or two layers of government) - although the thing is being merged a bit with the growth of town councils.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 9021 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Quite right - I should have said that Parish Councils are found mostly in rural or semi-rural areas (there's one not far from here which is almost a small town, rather than a 'village').

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8032 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Adarynefoedd
Apprentice
# 18759

 - Posted      Profile for Adarynefoedd   Email Adarynefoedd   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Community Councils in Wales to be pedantic.

We have a combined ministry here that is working really well, about 14 small parishes but is is backed up by a lot of good retired clergy working as NSMs and excellent Churches Together. I think the buildings are a real mill stone better to make the local people responsible for them (if possible). I note this is already the case with the Methodists and Roman Catholics. If one wanted to see a Church quietly moving away from clergy in rural areas, it is the Catholics so few clergy that the laity seem to have taken responsibility. A combined ministry would work well here if a solution could be found for the buildings.

Posts: 3 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes. Easier to walk away from/ dispose of burdensome buildings in cities but in many rural areas and villages church buildings have, I suspect, a cultural, local and community significance which is not the same as (although perhaps not entirely divorced from) their value or otherwise as roofs under which people can worship.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6356 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
andras
Shipmate
# 2065

 - Posted      Profile for andras   Email andras   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes. Easier to walk away from/ dispose of burdensome buildings in cities but in many rural areas and villages church buildings have, I suspect, a cultural, local and community significance which is not the same as (although perhaps not entirely divorced from) their value or otherwise as roofs under which people can worship.

Sadly nowadays they are only seen as 'roofs under which people can worship,' whereas historically they also functioned as market halls, community centres, court buildings, and schools - and no doubt served many other purposes as well.

It's hardly an efficient use of an expensive and often historically significant building to only use it for a couple of hours once a week or even once a fortnight. We urgently need to become more flexible and inventive about what we do with these often very beautiful spaces.

--------------------
God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass

Posts: 409 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Sadly nowadays they are only seen as 'roofs under which people can worship,'.


I think that probably needs qualifying with "in some places"

ours is the church (obviously), the village hall (because we haven't got one), where the parish council holds its meetings, where the big village meetings are held, community pop-up cafe, childrens' holiday activity centre, county Artweek venue, etc.

not bad for a 12th century building largely doing what it's always done. Perhaps it's easier for us because we're a small community in the middle of nowhere and there aren't really many alternatives to using the church if you want to do anything - for everything else there's the pub.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1281 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not sure of the statistics, but a fair number of English parish churches were constructed in the 19 century and have nothing particularly marvellous about them. Not very suitable for other uses, hard to maintain, etc.

Older buildings might be even less suitable for other uses and have even greater barriers to being repurposed.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 9021 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
An understanding of what a parish is and whether it is stillrelevant in any important way is a matter of history to most people it seems to me.

That strikes me as a *very* urban centric viewpoint. OK, most people live in urban areas so your statement is probably technically correct, but at the same time for most of the *country* (England, anyway) I'd argue that it's very very inaccurate.

Round here if you want to get anything done locally, it's down to the parish, and the parish council. As has been pointed out this is local government but mapped over the same area as the ecclesiastical parish. The water is further muddied by the fact that most PCs round my way are meeting in the village churches, leading most to assume that the church is involved in some way in running the village! The distinction between the PC and the PCC is something which I do think has passed most people by.

But the geographical concept is alive and well - and in use on a daily basis. In the pub last night someone was complaining about the hedges needing cutting back on the main road just outside the village. Answer, from another villager, "that's the other side of the parish boundary, so our contractors stop there"

Inference - "take it up with the next parish."

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1281 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure of the statistics, but a fair number of English parish churches were constructed in the 19 century and have nothing particularly marvellous about them. Not very suitable for other uses, hard to maintain, etc.

Older buildings might be even less suitable for other uses and have even greater barriers to being repurposed.

Sadly, there's no guarantee that if you have a cluster of parishes the most attractive buildings will be in the most inhabited villages. And if you do want to 'release' a C19 repro ugliness, that doesn't stop the Victorian Society from leaping to the defence of its pitch pine seating and shiny tile floor. What-is-more a lot of C19 repro uglinesses were badly built and just as likely to leak, suffer from heave or whatever.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7094 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What-is-more a lot of C19 repro uglinesses were badly built and just as likely to leak, suffer from heave or whatever.

I'm told that they were ordered from a catalogue and the bits bolted together. I don't think the person who told me this was jesting.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 9021 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[Eek!]

Sounds like Tin Tabernacles!

http://www.tintabernacles.com/

Some of these were (and, indeed, still are) quite attractive buildings.

I know of one mission church, interestingly enough, which is now used mostly as the village hall, and run by a charitable trust, but still has one Sunday service per month.

A browse around websites such as Simon Knott's Norfolk Churches master-work will show how remote rural churches are often kept open, and used, despite depopulation of the countryside.

http://www.norfolkchurches.co.uk/mainpage.htm

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8032 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What-is-more a lot of C19 repro uglinesses were badly built and just as likely to leak, suffer from heave or whatever.

I'm told that they were ordered from a catalogue and the bits bolted together. I don't think the person who told me this was jesting.
A prime example of this is St Andrew's, Framlingham Pigot, Norfolk. The proportions of the building are bizarre, and the sheer number of features picked from the catalogue and jammed together however they would fit would disbar it from any other function. Too much money has been spent on it too recently for the cracks in the fabric itself to show too badly at this stage.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2046 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not sure if the catalogue thing is an exaggeration, but it appears that the Incorporated Church Building Society paid for and/or built a lot of churches in a short period in the mid 19 century. It wouldn't be incredibly surprising if designs were chosen from a catalogue..

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 9021 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure if the catalogue thing is an exaggeration, but it appears that the Incorporated Church Building Society paid for and/or built a lot of churches in a short period in the mid 19 century. It wouldn't be incredibly surprising if designs were chosen from a catalogue..

19th century church building a la carte

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2046 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
/pedant alert/

It's actually Framingham Pigot, Norfolk (and Simon Knott's website doesn't seem to be working at the moment....too many hits, maybe, from SoF? [Ultra confused] )

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8032 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

 - Posted      Profile for Augustine the Aleut     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
It's not much used in England, either. "Nonconformists" is more common although, I suspect, falling out of use - and doesn't, of course, include the RCs.

In the 1970s I heard a divinity student from Co. Armagh make reference to "dissenters" and to
"Popish dissenters." In Ireland, it was always difficult for outsiders to tell if a term was used ironically or not.

Posts: 6046 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

 - Posted      Profile for SusanDoris   Author's homepage   Email SusanDoris   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
The distinction between the PC and the PCC is something which I do think has passed most people by.

But the geographical concept is alive and well - and in use on a daily basis. In the pub last night someone was complaining about the hedges needing cutting back on the main road just outside the village. Answer, from another villager, "that's the other side of the parish boundary, so our contractors stop there"

Inference - "take it up with the next parish."

Very interesting post, thank you. Was the person who talked about the hedge an older person? Do you think the younger people are clear about the different types of council and the wider meaning of the word 'parish'?

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 2864 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure if the catalogue thing is an exaggeration, but it appears that the Incorporated Church Building Society paid for and/or built a lot of churches in a short period in the mid 19 century. It wouldn't be incredibly surprising if designs were chosen from a catalogue..

There were, certainly in the C19 and, I think, in the C19, pattern books of architectural features in circulation, so someone commissioning a building could say, "I want a window like this and an entablature like that". I don't think there were kits for stone and brick buildings but I believe masons churned out standard carvings of windows, pillars and embellishments. We mustn't forget that Victorian buildings often include a lot of ironwork and that lends itself to standardised production. It wouldn't surprise me if there were mass-produced stained-glass windows, either - there certainly were for 1930s houses (all those sunsets and the like set into front doors).
Posts: 8763 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Very interesting post, thank you. Was the person who talked about the hedge an older person? Do you think the younger people are clear about the different types of council and the wider meaning of the word 'parish'?

We would occasionally get people signing up to go on to the church electoral roll when what they really wanted to do was get on the Council electoral register so they could vote - quite confusing for those not in the know.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34521 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Very interesting post, thank you. Was the person who talked about the hedge an older person? Do you think the younger people are clear about the different types of council and the wider meaning of the word 'parish'?

late twenties. seriously, there are "younger people" round here who could take you on a walk round the boundaries of their parish. They don't understand the difference between PC and PCC though.

I do think that some/many people are remarkably unprepared for how different the country looks from the sticks.

The rural/urban divide is pretty stark IME - probably comes from having to make your own entertainment and being 8 miles from the nearest shop. Everyone knows everything about you at all times, but on the other had it's incredibly integrated across the generations. I've just been in the pub at a table with ages 22-75. If you don't talk to each other, there's no one else to talk to.

The difference IMO is that people in the countryside know how the towns and cities work. The knowledge is not in any way repaid by the people living in the towns and cities.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1281 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am also in the country (former barracks bleeding into a very small town so not necessarily like the average countryside experience) and the parish council existing and what a parish does is very well-known, amongst all age groups - it's not any different to someone in a town knowing about their town council (actually we have both here). But agree that people don't generally distinguish between the PCC and PC - of course generations ago they were largely the same thing.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5275 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

 - Posted      Profile for SusanDoris   Author's homepage   Email SusanDoris   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
betjemaniac

thank you. Change of all sorts is unavoidable, isn't it, but the kind of local understanding you describe needs to continue, I think, while at the same time adapting to change. Tricky one, that!

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 2864 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
It wouldn't surprise me if there were mass-produced stained-glass windows, either

I bring you Burlison and Grylls - if you look at their windows you see panels repeating and there are various repeating themes.

Another one who grew up in the country and knew those parish boundaries and exactly where the parish boundaries are here - where they mostly coincide with the town council area.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13287 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools