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Source: (consider it) Thread: Weight loss, obesity, fat shaming, health, size etc ...
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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Let's talk about obesity on this thread to save the 'Who is responsible' thread from tangents.

This article is interesting, as are the comments. Is sugar really the 'enemy'?

This one too
- should sugar be treated like cigarettes?

Are there conditions which make it impossible to lose weight? My Dad always, very bluntly, said 'no one came out of Belsen fat'.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12666 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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I can't resist boasting about being fat shamed on a New York bus. It was priceless. Sadly, my pleasure at being insulted in public so discombobulated my would-be tormentor that she gave up and got off at the next stop. [Yipee]

I don't really care about being fat, nor do I give a stuff about why people are fat.

I recognise that carrying excess fat will probably shorten my lifespan, but I could get run over by a bus tomorrow, or blown up by a psycho next Saturday when I go to the footy.

Time for the Alfred E. Newman motto: What, me worry?

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Human

Posts: 1185 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Are there conditions which make it impossible to lose weight? My Dad always, very bluntly, said 'no one came out of Belsen fat'.

I'm going to guess that he wasn't fat. And I say that as someone who, through good gut bacteria or body chemistry or whatever, only gains weight if I start drinking four beers a day. We don't realize that not everyone has an easy time. Or the small ways that fat shaming happens.

It's a complicated issue. For some people, food issues are a matter of poverty, or a manifestation of deeper mental health issues. We should do better about making good food available to all, and helping people cut back on alcohol and sugary drinks and treats. But we should be careful to remember that this is one of those areas where it is way too easy to assume that your or my experience is the norm for all humans, when it really isn't.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Shame on her who insulted you - for all she knew, you could have had some chronic medical condition that makes (and keeps) you fat....

OTOH, if it's possible for you to lose some excess weight, go for it. At the very least, spare a thought for the poor sods like me, who, when working as an ambulanceperson, had to carry heavy people up and down stairs, and in and out of ambulances, hospitals etc. There are now a lot of gadgets and gizmos to help with this work, but even so...

The heaviest person I ever had to deal with (not on my own, I hasten to add - my crewmate and I summoned assistance) weighed 42 stone (588lbs), and another patient, heavy enough as it was, told me he'd weighed over 50 stone (700 lbs) before being admitted to hospital with heart failure(now there's a surprise!).

[Help]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9168 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Sigh.

Yes, I admit it, if you were to throw me in a jail cell and keep me there without a single calorie to eat, eventually I would lose weight. There's no getting past the second law of thermodynamics.

But I'd damned well do it about three or four times later than normal people, and far more slowly than normal people, and if you gave me thin vegetable soup and nothing else I'd probably maintain my overweight. Because that's the way I'm built.

When I say "I can't lose weight," what I mean is "I can't do it without going to extremes that would make most people's heads shred right off." For example, the weight loss surgeries I had during the past decade, the last of which resulted in my guts ripping through my diaphragm (sorry for disgusting image), crowding my lungs and nearly killing me.

I'm not doing surgery again.

But if I'd risk my life (and I did this knowing I was likely to have a bad outcome), how the hell can anyone say I'm not serious about losing weight?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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And yes, I live with the shame of it every freaking day--every time my weight makes things more difficult for another human being (why do men insist on holding the door open in such a way that they are standing in the opening and fat people are forced to say "I'm sorry, I'm too fat to squeeze past you, would you please move"? And then they get mad.

I hate airplanes because there's always someone (again, usually a guy, usually young and fit looking) who will be disgusted at having to sit next to me.

I avoid pictures. Worse than that, I have a sneaking suspicion that my workmates arrange matters in such a way that I am never allowed/forced to be photographed to accompany the material I write (though other authors are). And I can't figure out whether to be grateful or angry or both. And then I wonder if I'm just being paranoid and I hate myself for it.

To top things off, I have an inherited connective tissue disorder that makes it near impossible to exercise without getting injured, AND chronic pain and loose joints that means I have to use the elevator and a cane occasionally. At which point everybody looks knowingly at me, because of course it's the proper payback I deserve for giving myself arthritic knees via gluttony all these years. Except my knee joints are in very good shape, thank you, and the real problem is invisible and unknown. But everybody THINKS they know. And occasionally give me advice.

This is really stupid, but it wears me down. Sometimes I think this is my version of Paul's "thorn in the flesh," because it prevents any amount of sin--hard to become prideful and arrogant when even little children make rude remarks about me on the street.

It sucks.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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((LC))

Just the sort of condition I was referring to earlier, though there are other reasons for excess weight.

I come from a very tall, thin, family (and we all have similarly Knobbly Knees and Bony Ankles), but, of late (and probably due to medication), I've acquired a noticeable paunch. Once or twice, people I haven't seen for a while comment on my weight gain - not unkindly - but I still find even this embarrassing.

I eat fairly well, exercise (gently) every day, and don't consume too much ALE (or CAKE), but, so far, with no difference to my girth.

[Disappointed]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9168 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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We are routinely told that my province is the most obese in the country. We are also told about sugar drinks, sugary packaged foods and related. Yes, it is probably a factor. Then I see urban design. Where it is difficult to go to school, work, shop for groceries, for a walk in the park, recreationally bicycle etc without driving somewhere. People drive to dog parks where they let the dogs off lead and watch, sitting on benches. They drive to places with bike rack on their cars. So children start life without ideas of doing things under human power. Adults are confined by what is possible for the duration of life.

So I implicate bad design of towns, cities and all the related things as a cause. Eating is the easy factor to blame. Blame also the urban planners. Blame the planners who drive everywhere themeselves. They design curvy crescents roadways, cul de sacs, and only terribly roundabout ways designed for cars. They put car parks in front of stores, making it dangerous to walk through. And the stores are distant from homes. Some places don't even have sidewalks/ped pavements. And it is dangerous to travel but by car.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11068 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Are there conditions which make it impossible to lose weight? My Dad always, very bluntly, said 'no one came out of Belsen fat'.

Well, yeah, but that's not really a very helpful comparison.

There are certainly medical conditions, and drugs used to treat other medical conditions, that make weight gain very easy, and weight loss very hard.
Lamb Chopped has spoken about this.

I don't have any of those issues. I'm not fat, but I could certainly stand to lose a stone. My waistband is 4" longer now than it was when I was a beanpole of a student, and I'd be happy to drop 2".

But I don't care enough to put any serious effort into losing weight, because I like good food, and I like good beer. I have no desire to trade in steak and butter for grilled chicken and a salad. So I'm sitting at an equilibrium between my vague interest in losing weight (which would be good both for my health and my aesthetics) and my disinclination to deny myself tasty food.

I don't drink much soda. Obviously, I should drink none, but sometimes it's the easiest thing to drink at work. If I could manage to reliably keep milk at work, I'd make tea and drink no soda at all, but my schedule isn't reliable enough - sometimes it takes most of the work day before I actually make it to my office.

I should also take more exercise, which would be good for both my weight and my general health. It's not something I'm opposed to in general, but I find that I have too many other things I'd prefer to spend my time on.

In the UK, I used to cycle to work, which provided a convenient daily exercise. Here, the weather is too uncooperative (too hot in the summer - I'd die. Too snowy in the winter. So once you eliminate all the days on which I would die if I tries to cycle to work, there aren't enough left to build up a reliable habit of always cycling.)

That was exercise for a purpose - it accomplished necessary transportation. I could, of course, decide to join a gym, or plod around the grounds for an hour at lunchtime or something, but that wouldn't accomplish anything, and I know that I would basically always blow it off because I'm "too busy" or "just need to finish this". The great thing about cycling to work as exercise is that I never decided that I was just going to stay at work because I didn't have time to go home.

(And, on London, cycling home was about the most time-efficient method as well.)

As you can see, I'm well supplied with excuses...

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Copying over my response on t'other thread:

The main reason obesity is a problem is that humans did not evolve to sit on our arses as much as modern life dictates. A main secondary issue is that easy and cheap meals tend towards higher caloric content.

There are conditions which some have which make it difficult to lose weight no matter the diet and exercise, but for most of us it is a simple calorie intake v burn calculation.

However, there are a lot of other factors that can make it difficult. Poverty being a big one.

The stereotype of fat people eating loads of food is, for the most part, an inaccurate one. It is more about the types of food than the amount. And levels of activity. It isn't just going to the gym, but moving throughout the day.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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rolyn
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# 16840

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Some sobering posts for anyone rushing to judgement on this matter.

I notice younger people today who appear too well covered when compared to footage of just 30 or 40 years ago. If reduced activity levels are part of the problem then this is going to become ever more exasperated, especially with technology giving us cosy and sedentary lifestyles like never before.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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Congressman Steve King (Republican, of course, from Iowa) is calling for using federal funding for Planned Parenthood and food stamps to help pay for Trump’s border wall. King added that food stamps were created to fight malnutrition but that the people who benefit from these programs are now overweight.

"Now we have a problem of obesity," he said. "And when you match up the [Electronics Benefits Transfer] card with what the scales say on some of the folks, I think it's worth looking at."

It doesn’t seem to occur to him that chips, ramen noodles, etc. fill stomachs for a lot less money than fresh vegetables, fruit, lean meat and fish, etc. And in many poorer neighborhoods, stores with fresh food are few and far between, so the only place within walking distance is a convenience store full of cheap, filling junk food.

And -- surprise, surprise -- House Republicans want to dismantle the National School Lunch Program and the improved nutritional standards that first lady Michelle Obama advocated.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

Posts: 9454 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Another aspect of this is eating disorder. Also deeply troubling. One of one of kids' friends died of heart failure related to. I still think, though the suffering is individual, that our cities and societies are major factors in causing. Blaming people for their suffering is a terrible trope.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11068 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:


OTOH, if it's possible for you to lose some excess weight, go for it. At the very least, spare a thought for the poor sods like me, who, when working as an ambulanceperson, had to carry heavy people up and down stairs, and in and out of ambulances, hospitals etc. There are now a lot of gadgets and gizmos to help with this work, but even so...
IJ

This week my niece has had to give up the job she loved as a paramedic for this very reason. Her back has packed in.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Very much an occupational hazard, no matter how careful you are, or how many lifting/handling aids you may have. I'm one of the lucky ones, having escaped unscathed apart from the odd twinge of lower back pain now and then...

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9168 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
no one came out of Belsen fat

I would gladly submit myself to imprisonment where my food intake was strictly regulated, no ifs, ands or buts, PROVIDED that I could, on demand, indulge in any of several other (non-fattening) activities that give me great pleasure; AND FURTHER PROVIDED that once I reached my goal weight, the imprisonment would end.

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"It used to be that being crazy meant something. But not anymore – nowadays everybody's crazy!" – Charles Manson

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rolyn
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# 16840

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No reason that such incentive schemes couldn't be made to work. Often it is culture that causes epidemics, and culture can be employed to end them.
Which brings me back on to smoking.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Culture IS being deployed to end obesity. Just not effectively or justly. The chosen method is fat shaming, with a hearty side helping of fat penalizing. Ask any fatshamer. They'll tell you they're doing it for your own good.

Which has the added benefit of allowing them to do evil while feeling righteous.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Congressman Steve King (Republican, of course, from Iowa) is calling for using federal funding for Planned Parenthood and food stamps to help pay for Trump’s border wall. King added that food stamps were created to fight malnutrition but that the people who benefit from these programs are now overweight.

"Now we have a problem of obesity," he said. "And when you match up the [Electronics Benefits Transfer] card with what the scales say on some of the folks, I think it's worth looking at."

It doesn’t seem to occur to him that chips, ramen noodles, etc. fill stomachs for a lot less money than fresh vegetables, fruit, lean meat and fish, etc. And in many poorer neighborhoods, stores with fresh food are few and far between, so the only place within walking distance is a convenience store full of cheap, filling junk food.

Or that as a result, many poor children are both obese AND malnourished. The two are not mutually exclusive.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Congressman Steve King (Republican, of course, from Iowa) is calling for using federal funding for Planned Parenthood and food stamps to help pay for Trump’s border wall. King added that food stamps were created to fight malnutrition but that the people who benefit from these programs are now overweight.

"Now we have a problem of obesity," he said. "And when you match up the [Electronics Benefits Transfer] card with what the scales say on some of the folks, I think it's worth looking at."

It doesn’t seem to occur to him that chips, ramen noodles, etc. fill stomachs for a lot less money than fresh vegetables, fruit, lean meat and fish, etc. And in many poorer neighborhoods, stores with fresh food are few and far between, so the only place within walking distance is a convenience store full of cheap, filling junk food.

Or that as a result, many poor children are both obese AND malnourished. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Exactly. They fill up on cheap food with minimal nutritional value. But tell that to Congressman King and his pals.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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I'm sorry, but where is the acknowledgement of humanity in this discussion? We're dealing with human beings, and food is far more than fuel; it's identity, it's pleasure, it's comfort, it's control. If you no control over your life, can't afford other pleasures and are otherwise unable to define yourself against the run of crap life is throwing at you, even consciously perverse food choices start sounding reasonable.

Thus far, all the discussion has been about manipulating and controlling people. How about liberating them to the point where they are able to look after themselves?

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Ricardus
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# 8757

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Indeed. I imagine it is easier to keep to a diet if you feel good about yourself already.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Indeed. I imagine it is easier to keep to a diet if you feel good about yourself already.

It's not just about that; it's about being able to meet the other needs in different ways. To be able to treat yourself by other means than a packet of ridiculously cheap doughnuts, for example. Poverty also breeds isolation, another set of losses and discomforts for which food then provides temporary and costly comfort.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Culture is being deployed to end obesity. Just not effectively or justly. The chosen method is fat shaming, with a hearty side helping of fat penalizing. Ask any fatshamer. They'll tell you they're doing it for your own good.

The think-tank logic no doubt being that if it's working for smokers then it might work for eaters.

However impossible it can seem for some folk, the fact is heavy smokers have been known to quit overnight and never light another cigarette. Likewise obese folk have made dramatic weight loss by eating significantly less for however long it takes to achieve the desired result.
OK, this is easy for someone like me to say, and accepting the comparison isn't watertight because a food addict cannot quit food overnight and never touch it again. There is also the factor of cheap fattening food but as one columnist wryly put it "a carrot is still cheaper than a mars bar".

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
There is also the factor of cheap fattening food but as one columnist wryly put it "a carrot is still cheaper than a mars bar".

Well, OK, but if you're feeling a bit hungry, a carrot doesn't keep you going for another hour or two. And good luck finding a vending machine that will sell you a nice carrot.

Plus, as much as I like carrots (and I do), mars bars taste better. (They're a bit odd with gravy next to the Sunday roast, though.)

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Ricardus
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# 8757

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
And in many poorer neighborhoods, stores with fresh food are few and far between, so the only place within walking distance is a convenience store full of cheap, filling junk food.

Why does this happen?

I wouldn't have thought fresh food was significantly more expensive in the US than the UK, given that you produce a lot more of your own food than we do. If so - and this may be horribly judgemental - wouldn't that suggest that the reason such shops don't exist is because there isn't a demand for them?

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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I am fat, as anyone who has seen me or my picture is already aware. I used to let that fact lead me into a good deal of shame and self hatred. (Along with other things.) And yes, it is likely I will never be thin.

After a whole lot of work I am at a point where I genreally recognize that who I am as a person is not defined by my weight, but by my actions and the fact that God loves me just as I am.

If someone judges me on the basis of my weight it seems to me that it it is their problem and not mine. If I judge someone on the basis of their weight I am merely acting the fool.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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It is always more costly to offer fresh veg in a shop -- there's more wastage (not every head of lettuce gets bought, the old ones have to be tossed) and you have to refrigerate, ship in with a refrigerated truck etc. Compare with cans or packaged foods, which simply have to be trucked in and set on a shelf.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
There is also the factor of cheap fattening food but as one columnist wryly put it "a carrot is still cheaper than a mars bar".

Not always. And certainly not if you live in a food desert where your only food supply is the local AM/PM.

[ 15. July 2017, 22:05: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
There is also the factor of cheap fattening food but as one columnist wryly put it "a carrot is still cheaper than a mars bar".

But a carrot has no fat, and so doesn't make you feel full. Indeed it has a lot fewer calories. Generally when comparing foods et by poor people you have to look not as cost simpliciter, but cost per calorie. Also a calorie is not a calorie. In short, this is a really stupid comparison.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
And in many poorer neighborhoods, stores with fresh food are few and far between, so the only place within walking distance is a convenience store full of cheap, filling junk food.

Why does this happen?

I wouldn't have thought fresh food was significantly more expensive in the US than the UK, given that you produce a lot more of your own food than we do. If so - and this may be horribly judgemental - wouldn't that suggest that the reason such shops don't exist is because there isn't a demand for them?

As noted, there are several inter-related factors. One that hasn't yet been mentioned is farm subsidies-- which you would think would mean lots of cheap veggies, but no, due to particular political factors the really big money is in corn. So much so that corn syrup is practically free. So high-fructose corn syrup gets pumped into just about everything.

Time is a factor. If you're a single parent working two minimum wage jobs and have a couple of kids you aren't going to have time to make a lovely nutritious soup-- you'll need something you can throw into a microwave and get on the table in 5 min. so you can get your kids in bed before you get up tomorrow to do it all over again.

Housing is a factor. If you're homeless, you don't have any place to make a meal and no fridge to keep veggies fresh. You eat processed fast food 24/7 because that's all that's available to you. Even those who are housed are often living in a converted garage or other unsuitable housing (I've seen people living in chicken coops) without kitchen access.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The main reason obesity is a problem is that humans did not evolve to sit on our arses as much as modern life dictates.

Yet...obesity has been increasing even as people have become more active. The "it's because we sit on our arses" crowd usually compares today's activity rate with our farming ancestors. When we compare today's young people who belong to gyms and believe in "working-out' daily with the families of the 1950's you'll see most of the 50's families were thin and very few of them got out of their cars and walked anywhere. (I'm talking about Americans). My mother and her friends considered anything more vigorous than a few toe touches as unladylike. They were all slim. My high school graduation class of 1964 contained one overweight person out of 200. That unfortunate girl would be considered slim in todays high school.


I've read more articles and books on this problem than I care to admit and the person who makes the most sense to me is Gary Taubes, mentioned in the OP. His TED Talk is a must watch for anyone looking for the science behind the problem.

Why we get fat. He also has talks on sugar on You-tube.

As for the cigarette connection, yes there is something called addiction transfer. People who lose weight through gastric by-pass surgery have a very high incident of becoming addicted to gambling. I went form 110lbs all my life to 190lbs in six months when I quit smoking at age 45. I've been fighting it ever since.

While it's true no one ever came out of the concentration camps fat, it's also true their regain, once food was available, was astonishingly fast.

I've managed to lose all my excess smoking weight by sticking to a strict 1200 calories for about a year. I've done it four or five times. At about the one year point I start to regain without increasing my calories.

No, don't go there. I do not start slipping up. The meals are exactly the same each week and many of them are patented fast food meals (Arby's classic roast beef for lunch every Tuesday, etc.) At home my family sees me weigh and measure out my portion every evening. I don't suddenly start snacking after a year. My body just determines to get that weight back, I start to regain and after a few weeks I give up and go back to eating what I want, so that accelerates the regain even more. I don't hate myself when I give up. A year is a long time to go to bed hungry every night.

I gave up all effort about a year ago. Life is short, eat donuts.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is always more costly to offer fresh veg in a shop -- there's more wastage (not every head of lettuce gets bought, the old ones have to be tossed) and you have to refrigerate, ship in with a refrigerated truck etc. Compare with cans or packaged foods, which simply have to be trucked in and set on a shelf.

Also cans take care of themselves, by and large, whereas produce has to be handled and worked by an additional employee.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Produce also often requires cooking, which is time consuming, requires facilities and equipment, and is a skill many families have lost (other than heating things up in a microwave). Give most teens a potato and they'll have no idea what to do with it. Many of their parents are likely to have no idea what to do with it...

The time-consuming thing is a problem for my family, as by the time I return home my son is ravenous. I'm dealing with this by having him start dinner himself (yes, I taught him to cook), but see paragraph one for why that doesn't work for everybody. Plus after-school activities, jobs, ...

[ 15. July 2017, 22:30: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Frozen vegies, cooked in the microwave with a little fat added, are much more nutritious than fresh* vegetables. Cooking breaks down the molecular structure and makes the vitamins more soluble, the fat helps with this process. That raw carrot not only has very few calories for the hungry poor, it doesn't have much absorbable nutrition either.

*"Fresh" isn't even always that fresh either. If it's been traveling by truck for days it probably has already lost more vitamins than the same veg, yanked out of the ground at the factory farm, and thrown immediately into the freezing process. within hours.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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And now for something slightly different.

I finally managed to get in to an obesity specialist--not a "I have one solution and I use it for everybody" man, but a guy who's multidisciplinary and basically a Mad Scientist.™ He's treating (successfully!) several of my coworkers, which is how I came to hear of him. And we're not all doing the same thing.

In my case, he threw me straight back onto a very low carb eating pattern, which is working. I intend to keep on it. But (and this is a big "but") I can HEAR the biological scream going on in my body, begging for starches. It is unsettling--sort of like living with a ghost that keeps following you around and wailing at you. It is never far from my consciousness, and throwing meat and veggies at it only shuts it up for about half an hour. Then it starts screaming again--even though my stomach feels full and would object to, say, a potato or roll being added.

I have no idea what the scientific reality is behind this "scream", except that it probably has something to do with blood sugar. Which is not low--it's not that simple a problem--but I think something in the system is desperately trying to bring back the old regime. It sucks, and it's rather hard to concentrate.

(This diet is very expensive, too, and very inconvenient for eating at work or away from home. But if it gets the job done, I'll live with it. The bio-scream is really getting on my nerves, though.)

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Gramps49
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# 16378

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One of my sons suffered from anorexia when he was in his early twenties. We actually had to send him to treatment twice. The first time he really did not get into recovery and relapsed while he was studying abroad in India. He was immediately flown back to the US and re-entered another program. On the second day he was there, his heart stopped. Fortunately, they were able to revive him. Even then, he resisted treatment, to the point where we were prepared to involuntarily admit him to still another, much more intensive treatment. We were literally at the point of submitting the papers for commitment when he finally relented. This is still considered a hidden disease. Please encourage your friends to see To the Bone Please do not tag anyone though, because that unfairly singles out some people, and leaves other sufferers in the dark. May I add, my son has continued to be in full recovery. He is married to a professional chef who continually monitors how he is doing. They now have a beautiful son themselves.
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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There was a brief terrifying moment when I was diagnosed with diabetes. (They did another blood test and it was a false positive, whew.) I cannot give up carbs. It's ethnically inappropriate, for me to not eat rice. The word in Chinese even means 'food'; if you ask in Chinese whether someone has eaten to day it means 'eaten rice'. All other comestibles are add-ons.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But (and this is a big "but") I can HEAR the biological scream going on in my body, begging for starches. It is unsettling--sort of like living with a ghost that keeps following you around and wailing at you. It is never far from my consciousness, and throwing meat and veggies at it only shuts it up for about half an hour. Then it starts screaming again--even though my stomach feels full and would object to, say, a potato or roll being added.

I have no idea what the scientific reality is behind this "scream", except that it probably has something to do with blood sugar. Which is not low--it's not that simple a problem--but I think something in the system is desperately trying to bring back the old regime. It sucks, and it's rather hard to concentrate.

I know exactly what you're talking about, and Brenda's rice thing, too. It's a frantic, edge of panic, feeling that demands to be listened to. Give us this day our daily bread.

While visiting Youtube to get the Gary Taubes link, I ran into some Lindy West videos. She is great when it comes to responses to fat shaming. There's a moment in one where a young women in her audience tells her that fat acceptance is all well and good but "I worry about your health." Lindy tells her, "I don't owe you health." I love that.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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There does eventually come a point where you have to respect the fact that someone is an adult and responsible for their own choices, wrong-headed as you may think them. That includes the health thingy. And it's an added bonus if you (general you) can learn to think humbly, "Maybe there's more to the story than what I imagine based on appearances."

We've had a couple of references to heavy people destroying other people's backs. This is a real concern, and IMHO the powers-that-be ought to deal with it by a) making full use of any gizmos that exist to help, and b) seeing to it that nobody does this kind of thing career long. People cope with moving furniture, sick or disabled large animals, etc. already. IMHO it is just wrong to expect medical and emergency staff to cope without full-scale help of the sort these workers have. Expecting rather for the human race to shrink itself for the sake of such caregivers is pie-in-the-sky. We didn't get fat with the intention of hurting people's backs, we are mortified at the possibility, and if we could only figure out an effective and do-able way to shrink ourselves, we'd have done it already, for our own selfish reasons.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
And in many poorer neighborhoods, stores with fresh food are few and far between, so the only place within walking distance is a convenience store full of cheap, filling junk food.

Why does this happen?

I wouldn't have thought fresh food was significantly more expensive in the US than the UK, given that you produce a lot more of your own food than we do. If so - and this may be horribly judgemental - wouldn't that suggest that the reason such shops don't exist is because there isn't a demand for them?

As noted, there are several inter-related factors. One that hasn't yet been mentioned is farm subsidies-- which you would think would mean lots of cheap veggies, but no, due to particular political factors the really big money is in corn. So much so that corn syrup is practically free. So high-fructose corn syrup gets pumped into just about everything.

Time is a factor. If you're a single parent working two minimum wage jobs and have a couple of kids you aren't going to have time to make a lovely nutritious soup-- you'll need something you can throw into a microwave and get on the table in 5 min. so you can get your kids in bed before you get up tomorrow to do it all over again.

Housing is a factor. If you're homeless, you don't have any place to make a meal and no fridge to keep veggies fresh. You eat processed fast food 24/7 because that's all that's available to you. Even those who are housed are often living in a converted garage or other unsuitable housing (I've seen people living in chicken coops) without kitchen access.

Add to these reasons that grocery chains—which are in the position to provide fresh food at lower costs—often tend to avoid certain urban neighborhoods deemed "unsafe." (Use your imagination to guess what the racial composition of these neighborhoods might be.). Ditto many rural areas where they don't think they can make money.

There's also the lack in many places of good public transportation, making it difficult for many people to get to a decent grocery store.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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((lamb chopped))

[Votive]

I stopped reading after your very powerful post. I'll come back later and finish.

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Human

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I've come to the conclusion that I'm addicted to sugar and carbs. They are not the enemy but I have to keep a close eye on them or they quickly become so, for me.

I was brought up in a household of six - all slim and healthy people. I now have a husband and two sons, all super fit keen cyclists, who think nothing of cycling across continents. One does cross-fit and can never eat enough.

So I've always felt pretty inadequate weight and fitness wise. None of my family do fat shaming, but they don't need to, I just look at their food and fitness choices and know I could do much better.

I am on a low-ish carb diet and only allow myself wine and a bar of chocolate once a week. I go to the gym every other day and walk my dog for an hour a day, I keep trying to walk quickly but my natural speed is s l o w. I'm now - after two years - just seven pounds short of my ideal weight.

It's a daily struggle as the crisps and bread shout at me. But the less of them I eat of them and the more fish, veg and fruit I eat - the smaller the craving, so that helps.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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All this talk of too many electronic games and not enough time to cook and food deserts in the city skim over the fact that 97% of all successful dieters regain the weight within 3 years. That includes motivated young people, movie stars, athletes, the winners of Biggest Loser, rich people, OCD calorie counters like me and Oprah who has a personal trainer and cook and she still regains.

Fat cells, once grown, never go away, diets only deflate them and they long to go back to their rounded glory. They think a famine happened and they can't wait for a chance to recover and prepare for the next famine.

Everyone points to the people they know who lost a bunch, or themselves who are doing great on the diet du jour, but only the three year report counts, and it's almost all failure. The three percent who retain their loss, talk about having to go down to about 700 calories per day and work-out for five hours a day. Many of them have quit their regular jobs and started working at the gym.

Exercise is helpful but considering you have to walk a half hour to work off the calories in a large apple, it just doesn't make a lot of difference in most people's lives.

The wonderful, well meaning Michelle Obama spent her time as First Lady going around to schools talking to the student assembly about better food choices and being more active. Those are fine things to do but they have been proven to make little to no difference in children's weight. I fear that her visits just encouraged stigma against the obese children, implying it was their own fault.

About twenty years ago, West Virginia, the fattest state, tried some things in several schools. They added a daily recess exercise program, classes in food choices and nutrition, and better school lunches. They removed all the vending machines. After a year none of the children had lost weight. Another study tracked what the children ate at home and the chubby ones didn't eat any more chips and cookies than the thin ones.

There's something going on here that science hasn't quite figured out yet. The billion dollar diet industry doesn't want us to know that all the Weight Watchers meals and gym memberships in the world aren't working and all their plans have a 97% failure rate.

It's no good having the doctors and teachers rant at us about how unhealthy it is to be obese. Until they come up with a cure it's like lecturing people for having cancer.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I agree Twilight.

My intention is to keep it up, and keep up the visits to fat club indefinitely. I'll report back in five years time to let you know if I managed it.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
We've had a couple of references to heavy people destroying other people's backs. This is a real concern, and IMHO the powers-that-be ought to deal with it by a) making full use of any gizmos that exist to help, and b) seeing to it that nobody does this kind of thing career long. People cope with moving furniture, sick or disabled large animals, etc. already. IMHO it is just wrong to expect medical and emergency staff to cope without full-scale help of the sort these workers have. Expecting rather for the human race to shrink itself for the sake of such caregivers is pie-in-the-sky.

The problem isn't just overweight people; it's helpless people. Near the end of her life, my mother weighed eighty-five pounds. The woman who took care of her injured her back trying to raise my mother in bed.

Anyone who takes care of a helpless person needs specially-designed lifting equipment.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I agree Twilight.

My intention is to keep it up, and keep up the visits to fat club indefinitely. I'll report back in five years time to let you know if I managed it.

I'm glad I didn't discourage you, Boogie. I'll await your five year, or even one year, results and use them for some much needed inspiration.
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Jane R
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Twilight:
quote:
There's something going on here that science hasn't quite figured out yet. The billion dollar diet industry doesn't want us to know that all the Weight Watchers meals and gym memberships in the world aren't working and all their plans have a 97% failure rate.
I think it's both very simple and very complicated.

The simple part: our bodies are designed to survive frequent famines. Those fat stores that everyone keeps going on about are your emergency calorie supply for when the food gives out. The body will hang onto them for as long as possible, and if it does have to use them it will start restocking the larder the minute you go back to a 'normal' diet.

The complicated part: modern life is designed to stop you burning calories. Houses are heated or cooled to comfortable temperatures so you don't have to waste too much energy maintaining your core temperature. Most people (in the UK at least) work in sedentary jobs. The processed food industry is worth billions of pounds a year and the kind of food they like to sell us (because it has a high profit margin) is high in fat or sugar or both.

And you don't get any points for trying to lose the excess baggage until/unless you manage to get down to your target weight. Smokers can get their brownie points by throwing their last pack of cigarettes in the bin, having a shower and changing into clean clothes. Dieters can be on nothing but grapefruit for weeks, hungry enough to gnaw off their own arms, and they still get fat-shamed in the street because *they haven't lost enough weight to look thin yet.* It's discouraging.

Posts: 3932 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
When we compare today's young people who belong to gyms and believe in "working-out' daily with the families of the 1950's you'll see most of the 50's families were thin and very few of them got out of their cars and walked anywhere.

It is more about constant activity. Even office jobs in the 50's required more movement. Fewer telephones, no email, no desktop computers, etc. One had to get up and walk to do things. In the home, food preparation took more time and activity. Even in America, most people had one car for the whole family. This necessitated more walking.
Modern people like to go to the gym and workout, but if that 30 min to an hour every few days is all the exercise one gets, it isn't enough.
Modern packaged food has too much sugar (especially American) and too much fat. This is also a contributing factor.
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:

The simple part: our bodies are designed to survive frequent famines. Those fat stores that everyone keeps going on about are your emergency calorie supply for when the food gives out. The body will hang onto them for as long as possible, and if it does have to use them it will start restocking the larder the minute you go back to a 'normal' diet.

This is why modifying your diet instead of dieting and reverting is a better tactic. It isn't that the body wants to remain at its fattest, but to remain at whatever has been normalised.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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There's something in the way a woman on the radio the other month was complaining about how bad the traffic was that it could take half an hour to drive the half mile to her gym. Just let that sink in.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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