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Source: (consider it) Thread: Weight loss, obesity, fat shaming, health, size etc ...
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

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I wonder why it is that people decide to run, when it has such an impact on joints? I tried it long years ago and had to stop after a week or so because of nearly damaging Achilles tendon! Since then I have walked; early so not many people about and as fast as I can. Same route. I think it must be just as good for the heart and lungs.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 2919 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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I've often wondered this, but then I find running simply horrible, a torment to the flesh.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17450 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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Cross trainers and bikes are much kinder on the joints.

[Smile]

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12553 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've often wondered this, but then I find running simply horrible, a torment to the flesh.

This is exactly why I do it. It's simply a socially acceptable cilice.

And, also: I suffered from plantar fasciitis for six months after I'd taken up running. I just ran through the pain.

Yes, I do know. This song resonates strongly.

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Forward the New Republic

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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I was able to seriously take up cycling when gasoline hit $4 a gallon. Suddenly, commuting to work by bike was saving me significant money. The appeal to parsimony was more effective than the allure of weight loss.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5360 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

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Rowing: preferably on water but failing that on a machine. It gives a good cardio-vascular workout and has an impact on most of the major muscles.

Plus you can do it inside, thus avoiding the rain and, if you're sensitive, the stares of younger fitter people at the oldie sweating away.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4604 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
irreverend tod
Apprentice
# 18773

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Gentle cycling, brisk walking and generally keeping busy seem to work. Modern work culture of sitting at a desk and being fed cake for team moral has bunged 15kg on me over the last three years. When I worked outdoors and only ate at mealtimes I was in much better shape.

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Diocesan Arsonist and Lead thief to the Church of England.

Posts: 37 | From: England | Registered: May 2017  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Being fed CAKE to boost team morale? Lucky you...

[Two face]

But yes, gentle cycling, brisk walking, keeping generally busy and active, are all Good Things, and I, too, speak of What I Know.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8721 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858

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It winds me up when people talk about will-power because we don't know that everyone experiences hunger in the same way, do we? It seems to be accepted now that people experience pain differently - but you don't hear people with low pain thresholds being told that they should have more will-power. (I say that, but maybe there is an element of that in the natural childbirth movement....)

So maybe we all experience hunger differently. Maybe the hunger that one person can exercise will-power over is experienced by another as a much more unpleasant sensation, that can't reasonably be controlled through the same strength of will.

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2810 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Cooking all your own food from basic ingredients may help. No "convenience foods" or prepackaged meals. You don't make it, you don't eat it. Which includes things like juices and other prepared drinks.
Posts: 10845 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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That, I fear, is what I'm going to have to do. Which is a huge amount of time out of my week, given the facts of my job and the quirks of the rest of the family. Oh. Yay. Can't. Wait.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Exercise was so easy for me -- when I really didn't need it. Until I was 45, I got up everyday, and jumped rope for 21 minutes then did nine minutes of fast calisthenics, all before my shower. All that jumping never hurt my joints because I only weighed 110lbs. If I jumped over a rope now all the little bones in my feet would shatter like glass.

The hunger question is a good one. I wouldn't say that I feel hunger more intensely than anyone else, but I know the feeling makes my nervous. It's the anxiety that goes with it that hurts and that anxiety used to be addressed with 40 cigarettes a day.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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I solved the exercise problem by building the necessity into my life. When I was house-hunting, I insisted on a two-story house. I think I average eight trips up and down the steps every day.

I also insisted on a house close enough to downtown that I can walk to the bank and the post-office.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20129 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I'm jealous.

We did have a small grocery store within half a mile so we could walk, but the man retired and it's now a fitness center--of a sort I can't use. [Waterworks] Everything else for miles around is suburban houses and apartments. We looked in the city, but couldn't afford anything except high crime districts.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19958 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I solved the exercise problem by building the necessity into my life. When I was house-hunting, I insisted on a two-story house. I think I average eight trips up and down the steps every day.

We live in a staggered 5 level (3.5 stories) house-- I thought for sure all the trips up & down would keep me in shape, but sadly, I weigh the same now as when I moved in 10 yrs ago.
[Frown]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 10913 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

We live in a staggered 5 level (3.5 stories) house-- I thought for sure all the trips up & down would keep me in shape, but sadly, I weigh the same now as when I moved in 10 yrs ago.

Perhaps your weight's the same but there are other benefits that may well have come from your climbing up and down over that range - not least of which is what would your weight have been had you not been doing it.

[ 20. July 2017, 07:43: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6620 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Aijalon
Shipmate
# 18777

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Although not everyone is really aware of it, because nutritionists are still learning things backwards, the truth is that sugar is in fact the enemy. Well, not just "Sugar" (sucrose) but mainly Fructose

This has all happened due to a perfect storm of bad science and good marketing.

I recently watched a really great documentary on sugar by an Australian guy called "That Sugar Film".
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3892434/

He explains through a real experiment using his own diet how the calorie theory is wrong and now food manufacturers have sort of scammed us in terms of how they have labeled the packaging. Film is well done and fun.

Thyroid disorder aside, it seems the issue is Calorie theory is applied too simplisticly by most dieting methods which say that every calorie is the same just as another, eat fewer and lose weight [calorie counting]. That's bad science.

The result of the bad science is that pre packaged diet foods have been formulated and advertised as LOW FAT, because fat has more calories per gram.

So in selling you their diet food, to replace the lost taste, they added sugar (sucrose/glucose/fructose), which has technically fewer calories per gram in a chemical sense.

So while glucose is lower in calories than fat, and sweeter than regular sucrose, and while fructose is lower still, and fully twice as sweet as sugar, this makes it easy to make the low calorie food taste good.

The result though is that the human body is incredibly efficient at storing fructose and converting INTO fat!

Odd as it may seem, fat in food is not as easily used, the body can eliminate excess fat in the gut, but glucose and fructose are smaller and absorb into the blood stream. The body uses free glucose directly, stacks the fructose in the form of fat.

I don't recall this being much involved in the film, but making things worse are artificial sweeteners. These stimulate the appetite and cause you to crave more "low calorie" food. As one example diet soda has been shown to be associated with metabolic syndrome in various studies (probably the people with metabolic syndrome are prone to seek diet beverages, but in any case, they simply don't work).

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God gave you free will so you could give it back.

Posts: 200 | From: Kansas City | Registered: May 2017  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:

The result of the bad science is that pre packaged diet foods have been formulated and advertised as LOW FAT, because fat has more calories per gram.

It is not science that is the problem, but poor regulation of food industry labelling and lack of education.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16607 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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I think you are wrong about the glucose, which I understand to be less sweet than sucrose. (Checked on line - I'm right.) Certainly when I used to use dextrose tablets they weren't as sweet. (And dextrose is glucose.) The fructose is a product of corn via corn syrup and was aggressively marketed to keep people in business. As I recall there is a sneaky name for it, but can't remember what, which disguises it in processed foods. (Possibly hydrolyzed corn starch, which is a precursor of the syrup.)
It does make problems with fruit, maple syrup and honey, agave syrup and other plant products is one wants to avoid it.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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I like this guy's anti-sugarvideo because it's short and because he talks just like me.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
It winds me up when people talk about will-power because we don't know that everyone experiences hunger in the same way, do we? It seems to be accepted now that people experience pain differently - but you don't hear people with low pain thresholds being told that they should have more will-power. (I say that, but maybe there is an element of that in the natural childbirth movement....)

So maybe we all experience hunger differently. Maybe the hunger that one person can exercise will-power over is experienced by another as a much more unpleasant sensation, that can't reasonably be controlled through the same strength of will.

I think this is true. For me, hunger is abdominal discomfort, nausea, weakness and being able to think about nothing else. Having a small portion which doesn't take the hungry feeling away is the worst of all.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17450 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
cattyish

Wuss in Boots
# 7829

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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I wonder why it is that people decide to run, when it has such an impact on joints? I tried it long years ago and had to stop after a week or so because of nearly damaging Achilles tendon! Since then I have walked; early so not many people about and as fast as I can. Same route. I think it must be just as good for the heart and lungs.

Running on an injury is always a mistake, but I've gone from hating running to being a regular (very slow) runner by gradually increasing my stamina with a "couch to 5k" podcast on my old MP3 player. I now want to run. The evidence is: running with an injury is bad; running if not injured and if keeping to sensible increments is not bad for joints and actually good for bone strength. Very small study. Bigger study, this one's about osteoarthritis.
Cattyish, convert to jogging after all these years.

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...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Posts: 1788 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Aijalon
Shipmate
# 18777

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
[qb]
The result of the bad science is that pre packaged diet foods have been formulated and advertised as LOW FAT, because fat has more calories per gram.

It is not science that is the problem, but poor regulation of food industry labelling and lack of education.

The scientific consensus was over the mid 20th century that since obesity is an issue of being fat, that fats were the culprit. This turns out to be wrong, so this is an example of bad science. Food companies follow what scientists says is good to do. Poor regulation is only a secondary problem.

In the documentary "In defense of food" it discusses how the scientific world had reduced food research down to food substances, partly because that is what can be more easily studied and regulated.

So as far as that goes, the science of food began drawing conclusions based on food as being made of basically 3 things. Fat, Carbs, Proteins. The food pyramid was based on it.

Anyways, the Atkins diet proved convincingly that a high fat low carb diet fundamentally works. It is renamed now because it was "controversial" in it's day because Dr Atkins was confrontational on the scientific front of things.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/nutrition/diet/goodbye-carbs-hello-high-fats-atkins-diet-back-time-called-keto/

[ 20. July 2017, 19:31: Message edited by: Aijalon ]

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God gave you free will so you could give it back.

Posts: 200 | From: Kansas City | Registered: May 2017  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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Just because I check assertions, research into fructose in the diet - Nutrition and metabolism 2010 is actually saying that fructose is not quite the baddie those articles are suggesting:
quote:
that a positive effect of fructose on satiety was demonstrated in the 1990's. The group of Rodin et al [41, 42, 43] demonstrated that the intake of 50 g fructose alone as the sole source of carbohydrate, either in solution or in the form of puddings 2 hours 25 minutes before a meal, caused a decrease in appetite and lipid intake.
and that (2009 Journal of Nutrition)
quote:
Forshee et al. (68) have emphasized that pure fructose does not necessarily reflect real-life diets, which generally contain approximately equal amounts of fructose and glucose from fruits, vegetables, nuts, and added sugars such as sucrose, HFCS, and fruit juice concentrates. The level of dietary fructose used in many of the quoted studies is much higher than that found in typical diets. Significant changes were not observed when fructose vs. glucose sweeteners were tested. In addition, the increase in dietary fructose has not been disproportionate to the increase in energy, fat, and cereal grains between the 1970s and the present. Available data suggest that a sedentary lifestyle, an abundance of energy and fast food, smoking cessation, and diets containing excess energy, saturated fat, sucrose, and HFCS have all contributed to our current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes.
and from a 2012 symposium
quote:
On closer examination, much of the accusing evidence appears based on confusion of fructose-containing sweeteners and their compositions, incorrect reporting of fructose use and intake figures, extreme experimental designs bearing little resemblance in amount or pattern to actual human use, and emphasis on statistical rather than clinical importance.


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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13481 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

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As someone who has been overweight most of my life, though never grossly(BMI of 30) I have realised that there is a terrible load of bollocks written in the popular press on the subject. It may well be that being fat statistically shortens people's lives, but we're individuals, not statistics. My maternal grandmother was obese in later life but lived to be 96. My uncle had a real football belly and died just short of his 91st birthday. He had severe arthritis in his later years, but so do many thin people.

The comment about Belsen is correct. Our hunter gatherer ancestors probably went days without enough to eat and gorged themselves when food was available. The ability to store fat was a survival mechanism, and those with metabolisms which efficiently stored it, would have lived longer in times of scarcity. But of course a prolonged famine, whether caused by bad weather or by the SS in Belsen, would result in excessive leanness and death in many cases. Dieting, so popular in our overfed society, is just an attempt to induce some famine into one's personal life. The problem is it doesn't work.

When people have food around them, they can stand dieting only for so long. Progress gets harder week be week end eventually most people say WTF? Because, once someone has allowed excessive fat to build up, the body will always fight in every metabolic way, to regain the lost fat, whether it has been lost through diet or exercise. People should exercise because it's what the human body was designed to do. It can keep the heart healthy and fight off diabetes. But don't be surprised if you lose very little weight from it. It takes a lifelong almost super human approach, or a famine, to induce serious weight loss, and most people won't put themselves through that willingly. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak!

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Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
Food companies follow what scientists says is good to do. Poor regulation is only a secondary problem.

Smoke whatever you choose, but don't blow it in my face. Business does what it can get away with. Regulation is what constrains them, but only when properly done.
quote:

Anyways, the Atkins diet proved convincingly that a high fat low carb diet fundamentally works. It is renamed now because it was "controversial" in it's day because Dr Atkins was confrontational on the scientific front of things.

Atkins is controversial because it is unhealthy unless carefully applied. Same with the Keto Diet you linked to. As with any specialised regimen, especially one developed to treat a specific problem, unsupervised use can be dangerous.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16607 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
but we're individuals, not statistics.

Lottery logic, that is.
An individual might be able to eat pork pies 5 meals a day whilst chain-smoking between mainlining heroin and drinking litres of vodka and manage to live to 90. Statistically, though, that individual isn't you.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16607 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Right now I figure that everybody's talking bollocks until they can rigorously prove otherwise. With repeatable and repeated double blind studies not funded by anybody with an axe to grind or money to make (heh. Heh.)

I'm trying to approach my problem like a mad scientist, then, trying various crap out to see if it works FOR ME and then adding carefully to it. So far for me the low carb thing works, but the low fat or plain old low calorie thing does not, and the data exists to support it (in my case only).

Exercise is iffy since I never approach it on its own with no diet component involved.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19958 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
An individual might be able to eat pork pies 5 meals a day whilst chain-smoking between mainlining heroin and drinking litres of vodka and manage to live to 90.

Nobody is suggesting we don't pursue as healthy a lifestyle as possible, but I don't think obsessing about how much we weigh all the time will get us very far. To paraphrase MP Ken Clarke a few years ago: Whenever I go for a checkup I get told to stop smoking, stop drinking and lose weight. That's why I don't go for many checkups.

I don't smoke and I drink very moderately, but I have love handles and a bit of a belly, none of which worries me much.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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One cause of obesity which has not been widely researched is pregnancy and childbirth. I have known people who were slender until they gave birth to one or two children. Then they put on weight and couldn't get rid of it.

When I was pregnant, I was warned that after the birth I would need to exert willpower to keep from gaining weight. Why? Has anyone researched this?

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20129 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
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# 331

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This article may be of interest. Basic summary: most of the calories you burn in a day are used in maintaining your BMR (basal metabolic rate), exercising won't make a big difference to the calories you need and if you exercise a lot your body gets more efficient at using energy so you burn fewer calories doing the same things.

I don't think anyone's done a study on it, but perhaps having a child resets your BMR in the same way, so that you burn calories more efficiently? For hunter-gatherers or subsistence farmers that would be a good thing (increasing the chance that you will live long enough to raise some children to adulthood), but not so good if you don't have to worry about where your next meal is coming from.

Posts: 3868 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Nobody is suggesting we don't pursue as healthy a lifestyle as possible, but I don't think obsessing about how much we weigh all the time will get us very far.

Obsessing is a problem. Eat with a little thought, move around more. Even if one isn't the "perfect" weight, one will be healthier.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One cause of obesity which has not been widely researched is pregnancy and childbirth. I have known people who were slender until they gave birth to one or two children. Then they put on weight and couldn't get rid of it.

When I was pregnant, I was warned that after the birth I would need to exert willpower to keep from gaining weight. Why? Has anyone researched this?

Moo

Yes.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16607 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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One reason women might have trouble with their weight, forever, after having a baby, may just be the diet she goes on to lose the excess she's left with.

I think dieting is a huge reason for weight gain in all people, whether it's the diet some teenage girl goes on to look like the models in the magazines or the middle aged man who wants to make his doctor happy. Dieting causes obsessive thoughts about food and convinces the body that there's a danger of famine. When we go off the diet, our fat cells and our brains want to binge and usually we don't stop overeating until we've regained the lost weight plus another ten pounds. A few months later we try again, rinse, repeat.

I didn't gain an excessive amount of weight with my pregnancy, but came home from the hospital at 125 lbs, about 15 more than my starting weight. I didn't diet, but I did breast feed and within a few months was a gaunt 103 lbs. Every pregnant woman who is worried about weight gain should try to breast feed. It isn't the whole answer for everyone, but it helps.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I didn't diet, but I did breast feed and within a few months was a gaunt 103 lbs. Every pregnant woman who is worried about weight gain should try to breast feed. It isn't the whole answer for everyone, but it helps.

Sorry-- that snort you heard was me.

Almost every woman breast-feeds these days, but I haven't noticed any decrease in the moaning about baby weight. I breast fed all 3 of my kids for 13 months each. It's been 17 years and I'm still waiting for the weight to come off...

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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I also nursed for 13 months, and did see some of the weight come off fairly easily--but not all of it AFAIR, and not permanently. [Waterworks] And of course this is not a useful solution for people in general. [Big Grin]

FWIW, I did NOT diet after giving birth, not for two-three years at least. We were too caught up in dealing with a preemie-sized infant who refused to gain weight--bleah, the irony.

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Jane R
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# 331

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And some women can't breastfeed. They're already feeling guilty enough about Not Feeding Their Baby The Best without being fat-shamed as well.
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Boogie

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# 13538

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I think the biggest driver of weight gain after having children is lack of time, especially lack of time for yourself.

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Jane R
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# 331

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Yes. And several studies have shown that lack of sleep can lead to weight gain too.
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I didn't diet, but I did breast feed and within a few months was a gaunt 103 lbs. Every pregnant woman who is worried about weight gain should try to breast feed. It isn't the whole answer for everyone, but it helps.

Sorry-- that snort you heard was me.

Almost every woman breast-feeds these days, but I haven't noticed any decrease in the moaning about baby weight. I breast fed all 3 of my kids for 13 months each. It's been 17 years and I'm still waiting for the weight to come off...

You snort over everything I say, Cliffdweller, I can hear it through my computer.

Didn't I just say that it isn't the whole answer but it helps? It burns an extra 500 calories a day? How can that hurt? What exercise program does that?

Yes, you and a million other women breast fed and still gained weight, but logic would suggest that you might have gained even more if you had bottle fed.
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Paulth's link has me ready to throw in the towel. Only one obese women in 200&something succeeds? Then I don't think I'm going to be that one. I walk with a cane, have no MCL or ACL, had to stop going to church because the stand-up-sit-down of it all was too athletic for me and left me in joint pain for the rest of the week. I have to cook for a vegetarian and a total carnivore, have a slow thyroid, and spend most evenings alone. Blerg. I think I'll go get some ice cream.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
And some women can't breastfeed. They're already feeling guilty enough about Not Feeding Their Baby The Best without being fat-shamed as well.

So you toss out a question about the problem of weight gain after pregnancy. I mention that breast feeding was helpful to me, and new mothers might want to try ( I did say try) it, and now I'm fat-shaming and "not breast feeding shaming?" WTF? I didn't jump on people for suggesting stair climbing and tell them, "Some of us can't climb stairs! Quit cripple shaming!"

What a bunch of cry babies people are today with their shaming charges. I have never in my life told someone she should or shouldn't breast feed. That was a weight loss suggestion only.

When I had my baby in 1968, the staff told me that I was the first woman in thirty years to breast feed in that hospital. They gave me all sorts of flak about the extra trouble I was, not to mention drying pills. My doctor told me he hated breast feeding because if the baby needed any medicine he couldn't put it in the bottle. Worst was the countless dirty, snickering jokes from people including my in-laws. That was some serious shaming.

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Jane R
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# 331

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Twilight:
quote:
I have never in my life told someone she should or shouldn't breast feed. That was a weight loss suggestion only.

I am struggling to get my head around the disconnect between this and your previous post. How is extolling the virtues of breastfeeding as an aid to weight loss NOT telling someone she should breastfeed?

Oh, and nice ad hominem:
quote:
What a bunch of cry babies people are today with their shaming charges.


[ 21. July 2017, 11:57: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
How is extolling the virtues of breastfeeding as an aid to weight loss NOT telling someone she should breastfeed?

Recommending something is not equivalent to shaming people who don't do that thing.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
And some women can't breastfeed. They're already feeling guilty enough about Not Feeding Their Baby The Best without being fat-shamed as well.

So you toss out a question about the problem of weight gain after pregnancy. I mention that breast feeding was helpful to me, and new mothers might want to try ( I did say try) it, and now I'm fat-shaming and "not breast feeding shaming?" WTF? I didn't jump on people for suggesting stair climbing and tell them, "Some of us can't climb stairs! Quit cripple shaming!"

What a bunch of cry babies people are today with their shaming charges. I have never in my life told someone she should or shouldn't breast feed. That was a weight loss suggestion only.

When I had my baby in 1968, the staff told me that I was the first woman in thirty years to breast feed in that hospital. They gave me all sorts of flak about the extra trouble I was, not to mention drying pills. My doctor told me he hated breast feeding because if the baby needed any medicine he couldn't put it in the bottle. Worst was the countless dirty, snickering jokes from people including my in-laws. That was some serious shaming.

FYI: 1968 was a long time ago. Most mothers today do breastfeed if they are able, and fight for the right to do so in public, rather than being relegated to dingy bathrooms as was the case when I first gave birth. Hospitals have lactation specialists to assist

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Yes, Cliffdweller I know that. I was relating my experience precisely to show how times have changed.

Just a few years ago I was talking to my then pregnant neighbor and her husband, when he asked me if I had breast fed. I said "Yes," and he gave his wife a "See there!" look. She then told me he thought she should, but she found the idea icky. I immediately jumped to her defense and said,"Then don't do it! The important thing is that you and the baby have a cozy bonding experience over feeding, and you can do that better with a bottle, if that's what makes you relaxed and happy."

Suggesting that breast feeding might help with the weight gain is a mile away from shaming someone who doesn't choose to do it.


I just realized the thing I hate about the knee jerk reaction of "They're shaming her!" whether its slut-shaming, job-shaming, drunk driving shaming, or whatever -- it's very rarely called "shaming" when it's a man. Yesterday a neighbor mentioned to my husband that the weeds under our fence were out of hand. My husband now has the choice of doing something about it (I used to do it but now I can't) or shrugging and saying, "I don't care what he thinks it helps keep the rabbits out."

What he didn't do was cry because he was yard-shamed. When someone at his bar says that the Smith boy is only 19 and already has been the baby-daddy twice. No one jumps up and says, "Quit slut shaming him!"

Most of "shaming" is gossip, as humans do, some of it used to be called peer pressure and had a place in the world. At least it kept people from mistreating their children in public, but whether gossip or good advice it was always considered that women as well as men were grown-ups and could deal with it.

I'm not advocating we been mean to people. I hate it when people think it's okay to criticize others for almost any reason other than the protection of a third party.

What I'm saying is that the whole anti-shaming thing infantilizes women and says that they, so much more than men, must be protected from criticism because they will possibly fall apart crying if someone says something unkind about them. If we keep sending that message we wont ever have a woman president.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

Suggesting that breast feeding might help with the weight gain is a mile away from shaming someone who doesn't choose to do it.

Agreed. Fortunately, no one here is making that sort of accusation. I'm skeptical of the "breast feeding aids weight loss" claim since it's contrary to my own experience and that of most moms I know, but I'm happy it worked out well for you, given that there are so many other very good reasons to choose breast-feeding.


quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
What I'm saying is that the whole anti-shaming thing infantilizes women and says that they, so much more than men, must be protected from criticism because they will possibly fall apart crying if someone says something unkind about them. If we keep sending that message we wont ever have a woman president.

As best I can tell, the "anti-shaming" thing has never been applied only to women (although shaming non-breastfeeding women is probably a distinctly female thing). As with all things, if taken too far, yes, it can be counter-productive, and just plain un-gracious if it's assuming the worst intentions behind benign comments, shutting down productive dialogue. That doesn't mean there aren't real incidents of fat-shaming or other forms of shaming that should be denounced.

[ 21. July 2017, 15:00: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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IMHO it is simply more common in every culture I'm aware of to use shaming against women rather than men. Men can be shamed, yes--witness the accusations of cowardice during wars when countries are trying to get people to enlist. But generally speaking, it seems more common for people to deal with men either via straight out complaint, verbal or physical aggression, or various overt forms of coercion (e.g. complaining to a supervisor or suing the guy in court).

And of course, a lot of time people just look at the guy, think of the possible repercussions of getting on his bad side, and just swallow it or bitch about him safely out of his hearing. Women on average are not nearly so intimidating to most people, and therefore come it for a lot more in the way of insults. (Few people expect to be punched or sued in response.)

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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lilBuddha
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Men shame each other all the time. They do it in reference to masculinity, directly or indirectly. However, most cultures have a wide spectrum as to the value of men and a very narrow one as to the value of women.
For men; it can be job, character, art, masculinity, daring, intelligence, etc.
For women, it is beauty and child-rearing. The vast majority of the shaming for women originates in these values.

[ 22. July 2017, 17:09: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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