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Source: (consider it) Thread: Church, drinking cultures, and the exclusion of teetotalers
Curiosity killed ...

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There is a big binge drinking culture in the UK amongst younger people - pre-drinks before going elsewhere are usual.

The pub culture is less popular - in February 2016 CAMRA calculated 27 pubs closing a week in 2015, down from 29 a week in 2014. Of the seven pubs in town when I moved here, there are now four. Of the three that have closed, two are now housing, one is a restaurant. I used to meet friends in the pub all the time when I was younger, but I think I've had two Guide planning meetings in the pub in four and a half years and one social at another pub. Mostly we meet in homes, or the coffee shop, big social meetings in a restaurant. I'm more likely to find a pub for a lunchtime drink and meal out walking than use any of the town pubs. (And if I'm with my daughter, I don't drink alcohol - I drank tea and water at Folk by the Oak with my daughter on Sunday.)

The church choir here goes to a pub after practice and evensong, the bell-ringers go on to another tower. But families with children do not go down the pub. The big parties were in church or in the rectory garden (that rector has retired).

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Stetson
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Al Eluia wrote:

quote:
I cannot imagine many French people ever being persuaded to join a religion that forbids drinking wine.

I read a quote from Romney where he said he didn't get many converts.

I also once read a quote from another LDS missionary who was based in Bourdeaux, who said that it was kind of fun trying to convince people in a wine-making area to join a religion that forbids drinking.

The overall impression I get from those and other sources is that Mormons are generally indifferent to how many converts they get from their missions.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Thinking of socialising and creating a space for talking etc. : what do folk think about a recently-opened pub run by a Baptist minister which has official backing from the denomination?
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Jane R
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Curiosity Killed, the impression I get is that binge drinking is on the decline and young adults are far less likely to be heavy drinkers than the middle-aged and elderly. We may be among the nations of heavy drinkers, but the culture is changing.

This report may also be of interest. I'd take the Telegraph with a large pinch of salt... it's got a right-wing paternalistic agenda just like the Daily Mail, only sugar-coated for a different audience. Did you notice the picture they used to illustrate the article was of three young women holding drinks? Because binge-drinking in young men is just a rite of passage, and boys will be boys, nothing to see here, move along.

[ 19. July 2017, 07:58: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There are no Starbucks in the UK???

I think we're now down to 2 Starbucks in Sydney (1 of which is at the airport to cater for tourists) and probably very few more throughout the rest of the country. Opened with a bang, loud proclamations that now Oz could have the benefit of a Starbucks on every corner. Of course, they failed, because there were non-chain coffee shops on every corner, selling (mostly) good coffee and half-decent pastries, cakes and savoury food. The fairest comment is that Starbucks coffee does not appeal here, a country where the coffee revolution started in post-WW II days with Italian arrivals.

The Methodists here were wowsers of the first order, but there are very few Methodists left. The Presbyterians were never against alcohol in anywhere near the terms of the Methodists. Almost all of both joined the Uniting Church and while the consumption of alcoholic drinks on church premises is very limited, normal amounts are drunk on other social occasions.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Curiosity Killed, the impression I get is that binge drinking is on the decline and young adults are far less likely to be heavy drinkers than the middle-aged and elderly.

I agree, whether that's because of falling disposable incomes, health warnings getting through, or simply because it's no longer seen as "cool" to be spewing up on the pavement. The real worry seems to be solo drinking at home ("I'll just have a glass or two of wine to wind down after a busy day ... Seems a shame not to finish the bottle").
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
There is a big binge drinking culture in the UK amongst younger people - pre-drinks before going elsewhere are usual.

Contrary to the impression given by that article, figures elsewhere show a steady decline in drinking among the young - including binge drinking:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/ons-statistics-young-adults-in-the-uk-are-drinking-less-alcohol-2015-6

[Which could be for all sorts of reasons as B62 says above]

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wild haggis
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I have been in a great any churches in the UK and never seen the problems that are talked about in the original post.
In many yes, at receptions, there is alcohol on offer but I have never been anywhere where there is not a soft alternative.

What's wrong with just saying "no thanks."
If it really is a major problem change your church.

Maybe your church likes everyone roaring drunk? If so you have a problem. And that is not a church but a pub.

I don't understand this argument. We live in a culture nowadays where it is OK to go soft.

As to outreach to Moslems - really? Anyway it's simple - have a good selection of non alcoholic drinks available. If you are reaching out to Moslems it's unlikely they will come to a church event like that. Have a tea party if you are seriously going to engage with Moslems.

Today, because of the dink- drive rules most places have people who don't drink and order soft alternatives. What's the problem?

We are all different. Accept it and drink soft.

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wild haggis

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
If you are reaching out to Moslems it's unlikely they will come to a church event like that. Have a tea party if you are seriously going to engage with Moslems.

My former church did that, and it worked well.
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:

Have a tea party if you are seriously going to engage with Moslems.

Yes, this plus follow-up individual to individual, family to family works quite well if you want to engage with Muslim neighbours/friends.
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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:

Have a tea party if you are seriously going to engage with Moslems.

Yes, this plus follow-up individual to individual, family to family works quite well if you want to engage with Muslim neighbours/friends.
We get on really well with our Muslim neighbours, we chat a lot over the fence. But they don't come to our coffee mornings due to us having two big, friendly dogs and plenty of dogs who come coffee mornings with visitors (I run them as fund raisers for Guide Dogs). I find this much more of a cultural barrier than alcohol has ever been. I go out for meals with my Muslim friends, but leave the puppy at home.

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Enoch
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A bit of history.

50-60 years ago, attitudes to alcohol as described by Australians and New Zealanders were quite widespread in England. It's lovely to hear the word 'wowser' again. I haven't heard it for years.

The Methodists were particularly strict on alcohol, but some other denominations were fairly anti. Some shacks gave the impression that they thought a pub was as bad as a brothel if not worse. Temperance had been a movement that in some churches had replaced faith.

So in the sixties and seventies, there was a sort of feeling in churches that we needed to let the world know that we weren't against everything, and that a chap (particularly men) who became a Christian did not have to become prim and disapproving.

That in itself is an important message. There is nothing holy about being a wowser.


Broadly, that one could ask as a simple question 'do you drink or don't you?' and for that to be an issue, marks out as unhealthy an attitude to one area of human activity, as insisting that shops don't sell meat for fear of upsetting vegetarians, tobacco for fear of upsetting people trying to give up smoking or pork for fear of upsetting Moslems and Jews.

If you don't like alcohol, don't drink it. Drivers can't even if they want to. If you don't like tea, don't drink it. Ask for something else. But more importantly, if you feel pressured to do something you don't enjoy by the need to show that you conform, that's actually a problem that's internal to you, not the culture. It took me until well into my thirties even to begin to realise that.

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Jane R
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Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
The real worry seems to be solo drinking at home ("I'll just have a glass or two of wine to wind down after a busy day ... Seems a shame not to finish the bottle").
And I suspect that's more of a problem among older people too. All the people under 40 that I know are into exotic varieties of tea. Or coffee.
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
The real worry seems to be solo drinking at home ("I'll just have a glass or two of wine to wind down after a busy day ... Seems a shame not to finish the bottle").
And I suspect that's more of a problem among older people too.
Yes, I agree - and, anecdotally, among women in particular.
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Jane R
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Is it *really* more of a problem among women, or do people just have different attitudes towards women who drink a lot? The academics who did the research I mentioned earlier seemed to think it was the latter.
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Darts are "socialization sids" but board games are not??? Sez who?

Most cafes do not have board games.

Most board games take quite some time to play.

Certainly they aid socialization, but they're mostly not something you can just dip in to. Spend an hour or two playing a board game with some people? Sure, sounds like fun, if it's a decent game. If it takes you an hour to play a game of pool or darts, you're really quite astonishingly bad.

Maybe it's a cross-pond thing or maybe it's just me, but I cannot for the life of me fathom how a game of darts could be this central one way or another to the success or failure of a social outing. It seems harmless enough, but not really very exciting either. Ymmv

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Enoch
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It's a cross pond thing. We don't get baseball or carrying sidearms.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Is it *really* more of a problem among women, or do people just have different attitudes towards women who drink a lot? The academics who did the research I mentioned earlier seemed to think it was the latter.

You could well be right! - which is why I said, "Anecdotally".
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Gamaliel
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My eldest daughter was quite into the teenage binge-drinking thing until she went to work in Italy as an au pair and that cured her of it. She liked the Italian approach and adopted it.

She drinks a lot less than I do.

My youngest still binges a bit but it's not regular and I get the impression that the same goes for a lot of her pals.

On the pub thing, well yes, sadly there are pubs closing and that's a shame, I'm a big fan of the traditional British pub and a CAMRA member (Campaign for More Real Ale). I try not to be a beer bore, though.

However, there are more drinking establishments in our town than there were when I moved here - some of them very fly-by-night ...

On the whole though, I do think that it's the drinking at home thing that is stealthily catching up with people - particularly older people and the middle-aged ...

I've been monitoring what I drink and am consciously scaling back - not that I was drinking excessively but I noticed it was creeping up to and over the recommended top level weekly limit that the Gummint sets as a bench-mark (up to 14 units, reduced from the previous 21 top recommended limit for men).

Some weeks I'm around the 11-14 mark and sometimes I topple over to around 18 units. I'm going to ease back to up to 7 units maximum if I can - and that shouldn't be difficult.

Many of the arty events I'm involved in happen in and around pubs but I tend to have no more than 2 or 3 pints ... although I do need to watch it.

On the churchy thing, whilst I've seen wine at churchy socials I've never seen it offered without non-alcoholic alternatives and whilst a lot of clergy I know enjoy a pint, a whisky, gin or a glass or two of wine I don't think I know any who are particularly prone to drinking gallons of the stuff at church socials.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Maybe it's a cross-pond thing or maybe it's just me, but I cannot for the life of me fathom how a game of darts could be this central one way or another to the success or failure of a social outing. It seems harmless enough, but not really very exciting either. Ymmv

It takes the social pressure off. It's not darts in particular, but something short-term and fairly low-key that you can do in order to avoid being a group of people sitting round a table looking expectantly at each other. Darts, pool, and so on provide a social focus that is not a person, so reduce the pressure to socialize.

Doing "an activity" together works the same way, but "an activity" tends to be a more major undertaking that takes a substantial fraction of the evening, and as such is a thing that you arrange to do as the focus of your evening's entertainment.

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Jane R
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I've been to a pub which provided board games for its customers, though as it also served food it may have been a ploy to distract us from how long it took our meals to arrive.

All board games are not all created equal. Yes, a lot of them do take a while to play (one of ours only ever comes out on New Year's Eve, because that's the only occasion we have enough time to play it). But some of them don't. A quick game of Snakes and Ladders or a few rounds of Fluxx (ok, ok, that one's a card game) would take less than half an hour.

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L'organist
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I'm sure a lot of it comes down to the historical place of alcohol within a culture. A rough divide can be made across Europe East-West centred on the Alps: south of that line people tended to drink wine and north of it the drink was beer. While wine goes with most things beer doesn't necessarily go with food, and the drinking culture of the Voking/Norse lands was largely males, drinking in a group until they passed out. South of the line wine was drunk with meals - sure they had feasts but not the male-only drink-till-you-drop thing of the northern peoples.

Like it or not, that is the culture the UK has inherited and thus we have always had a big problem with binge drinking - if you doubt my theory cast your eyes over Hogarth's Gin Lane or look at the reasons for bringing in limited licensing hours during the First World War.

As for drinking at church functions, surely it comes down to good manners: at any "do" good provision should always be made for those who prefer not to drink, especially since there are drink-driving laws. In the same way, no one should feel pressured by social gatherings taking place in pubs because they have always sold non-alcoholic drinks and nowadays most can even rustle up an acceptable cup of coffee.

The outreach thing is, I think, a red herring: and taking a po-faced attitude towards being in a place where alcohol is served doesn't wash either, otherwise there would be empty restaurants across the land.

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
I have been in a great any churches in the UK and never seen the problems that are talked about in the original post.

I don't think it's at all typical of British churches in general, but there is a certain kind of ultra-high Anglican establishment that revels in bibulous festivities. On the other hand, they do have good parties and a strong sense of community cohesion.
quote:
Originally posted by l'Organist:
if you doubt my theory cast your eyes over Hogarth's Gin Lane or look at the reasons for bringing in limited licensing hours during the First World War

Although many who are aware of Gin Lane are unaware of its utopian companion-piece Beer Street ...

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
A quick game of Snakes and Ladders

I'm confused why anyone old enough to reliably count would enjoy a game of Snakes and Ladders, but each to his own. (The number of choices you make in a game of Snakes and Ladders is precisely zero.)
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Twilight

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This article gives a good peek into the drinking practices of the Episcopalian church in America. These new rules were established in 2015 but I don't think my pastor has seen them. They still have "Beer and the Bible," at a local bar, Friday night "Cards and Cheer," at different houses and the pastor herself is often criticized (behind her back of course) for getting loud and boisterous after having a few.
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Jane R
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Leorning Cniht:
quote:
I'm confused why anyone old enough to reliably count would enjoy a game of Snakes and Ladders, but each to his own.
Where did I say I enjoyed Snakes and Ladders? I merely offer it as an example of a game that takes less than half an hour to play.
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Where did I say I enjoyed Snakes and Ladders? I merely offer it as an example of a game that takes less than half an hour to play.

Sure - but we're talking about adults socializing here (people who Pomona would like to go to places other than the pub). So I suppose a hidden assumption in the darts/pool/boardgames/whatever social aid category was that it was an activity that adults would actually choose to do. If there are adults who voluntarily play Snakes and Ladders with other adults, then I suspect that they are rather rare (and probably also high).
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Galloping Granny
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Our most conspicuous drinking problem is young people (late teens early 20s) who drink lots (mostly canned ready-mixed) before they go on the town. I report what I've read about and seen on TV.
There is also the problem in poorer areas of too many off-licence shops.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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Enoch
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If that's a problem at all, isn't that more a problem of some people buying too much alcohol and then drinking it, rather than there being shops to sell it to them? And what assumptions are any of us making if we say there are 'too many off-licences in poorer areas' about other people's ability to take responsibility for living their own lives?

Of course we can look after our lives and organise ourselves. But those poor people are benighted? They can't? They need us to organise their lives for them?

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I'd take the Telegraph with a large pinch of salt... it's got a right-wing paternalistic agenda just like the Daily Mail, only sugar-coated for a different audience.

to be quite honest, I find it helps to assume that every UK news outlet is a special interest agenda peddler setting out to lie to you for its own ends and take it from there.

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Jane R
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Oh yes. But everyone likes to think their favourite news outlet is unbiased. I suppose the BBC comes closest - if both sides think you're biased against them then at least you're not (always) telling only one side of the story.
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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Oh yes. But everyone likes to think their favourite news outlet is unbiased. I suppose the BBC comes closest - if both sides think you're biased against them then at least you're not (always) telling only one side of the story.

I do agree about the BBC - if you're getting it in the neck from all sides then you're probably ok. Ditto Private Eye actually, which is an equal opportunities attacker when selecting targets.

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Jane R
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Reading the foreign media is useful for gaining perspective too, although this only works if you can read French or German...
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I'd take the Telegraph with a large pinch of salt... it's got a right-wing paternalistic agenda just like the Daily Mail, only sugar-coated for a different audience.

to be quite honest, I find it helps to assume that every UK news outlet is a special interest agenda peddler setting out to lie to you for its own ends and take it from there.
Well, in this case the Telegraph is peddling false facts - or more charitably peddling an opinion that doesn't have facts to back it (see ONS link - drinking among younger people is down).

Anyway, to your further point that complaining from both sides mean that a media organ has achieved that mythical 'balance', that's only true if each side has an accurate view of where balance lies. As it happens, numerous studies have proved that conservative voices are far more likely to be represented on the BBC, and the news/politics organisations are a veritable revolving door of people moving between the BBC and various right wing media outlets or the Tory party. Similarly the choice of 'think tanks' represented.

But we are getting quite far away from the OP.

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Curiosity killed ...

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Actually, from the ONS report:
"7.8 million people “binged” on alcohol on their heaviest drinking day"
and
quote:
young drinkers are more likely than any other age group to “binge” on their heaviest drinking day. Among drinkers aged 16 to 24 years, 37.3% reported binge drinking on their heaviest drinking day in 2016 compared with just 10.3% of drinkers aged above the age of 65 years.
There is a rider that:
quote:
Finding generally higher levels of binge drinking among those aged 16 to 24 years could be due to the data capturing those who tend to drink a lot on a Friday or Saturday night and then not much else during the rest of the week.
The most harmful drinking is amongst older drinkers, but those statistics do back up my assertion that there is a binge drinking culture amongst young people.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

"7.8 million people “binged” on alcohol on their heaviest drinking day"

A binge here is defined as more than four pints of normal strength beer for men, and more than about half a bottle of wine for women.

That's not really what I'd call a "binge". That's what I'd call "a bit tipsy". I'd call a "binge" something approaching the quantity of alcohol that finds people staggering a puking all over the pages of the tabloids, which is rather more than five pints of weak beer over the course of an evening.

It would be interesting to see what fraction of that 7.8 million were at the bottom end of the "binge" category, and what fraction were well into it.

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anteater

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quote:
I also can't help but wonder at how this must affect our outreach to Muslims and other groups where alcohol is never or more rarely consumed
Well my wife's Church believes outreach to include bacon butties for breakfast, and bacon-butty evangelism is on the increase, even extending to my own church.

I don't know of many churches that put on beer fests to get people through the doors.

I also would point out that alcohol is a great social lubricant at least for men. When I worked it was mainly in a male geek type environment and when we were off site, most male social conversation was alcohol enabled.

The problem was that there was quite a lot of really health threatening boozing along with it, so I do sympathise with the argument often put forward by abstainers that where booze is in the culture a certain number will suffer from it.

Interestingly (for me) the JW's tolerated boozing. We used to pub crawl in Cheshire every Sunday evening, and it was not that uncommon for the driver to have to be assisted into the car.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I have a transgender friend who found church culture incompatible with his AA meetings to the extent he had to leave his church.

I also can't help but wonder at how this must affect our outreach to Muslims and other groups where alcohol is never or more rarely consumed (I believe that while alcohol is not forbidden for Hindus, it isn't recommended and stricter Hindus will abstain, for instance). Many of these groups won't socialise in pubs and other places alcohol is served either.

For churches that seriously aim to evangelise among Muslims or to people struggling with alcoholism a zero alcohol approach is likely to be their policy. But most mainstream churches don't really have such a mission, so they?

I do know of one city centre CofE church that offers a choice of alcoholic or non-alcoholic communion wine. I've noticed that some of their attenders are quite obviously Muslims so the policy makes a lot of sense.

Myself, I approve of the Methodist policy of disallowing alcohol on church premises, but even this might not be enough if a church is really committing itself to an outreach among certain social groups. Methodists no longer have to be teetotal, and many of them drink when not in church, which might be a problem in some missionary contexts. (To be fair, I don't think the Wesleyan Methodists were ever entirely teetotal.)

I used to go to the pub with a group of young Methodists after the Sunday evening service. The good thing was that I never felt obliged to drink alcohol during these outings - and I didn't. But for someone who has theological or addiction problems with alcohol, even sitting in a pub might make them uneasy. Then there are those who might be okay with a bit of alcohol but not with a pub setting.

[ 22. July 2017, 20:42: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
A binge here is defined as more than four pints of normal strength beer for men, and more than about half a bottle of wine for women.

That's not really what I'd call a "binge". That's what I'd call "a bit tipsy".

It's all about defining terms I guess, but I find your definition quite scary. Your "low end" of the definition is far above my high end.
[Ultra confused]

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Ricardus
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Five pints, over the course of several hours, was my maximum as an irresponsible student. While I wouldn't recommend it, it doesn't prevent you from staggering home or functioning as a human being the following day.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Brenda Clough
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What you could do at age 22 is, alas, often impossible at age 52. I strictly limit myself now to one drink or beer a day. Also, coffee -- you steadily lose tolerance for caffeine as the years march on. And we will not even talk about physical activities...

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North East Quine

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I'm in a rural parish. A culture of drinking alcohol would exclude drivers, let alone anyone else.

We have a choice of alcoholic or non alcoholic mulled wine after the annual Carols by Candlelight, and we have an annual Fair Trade evening with includes Fair Trade wine, but that's about it.

The culture Pomona speaks of can surely only happen in a city where everyone is either within walking distance, has access to public transport, or can afford a taxi.

FWIW, we tend not to drink much when we are socialising at home with friends, because there will always be somebody who is driving, and likewise I am usually tee-total when having dinner with friends elsewhere.

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Leorning Cniht
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I find it hard to consume enough liquid to drink much more than five pints in an evening. All the really stupid incidents in my irresponsible youth were drinking rather more potent brews. Usually not in pubs, either - it's easier to drink more when you don't have to pay for it.
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

"7.8 million people “binged” on alcohol on their heaviest drinking day"

The most harmful drinking is amongst older drinkers, but those statistics do back up my assertion that there is a binge drinking culture amongst young people.

To the extent that there is one, its much less the case than it ever was. If you look at the breakdown by sex/age cohorts (at the bottom) there only a fairly small difference between very young males and older males until you hit the above 60s (the difference is more pronounced for younger females). Additionally this age cohort is numerically smaller, so there are still - numerically - more older people 'binge' drinking by that definition.

Personally, I don't like beer that much, but 4 pints over an evening (a pint an hour) doesn't seem liable to lead to the kinds of antisocial behaviour that are being used as a marker of binge drinking, and half a bottle of wine is just two glasses.

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Jengie jon

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First lets deal with some statistics about alcohol culture. The latest social survey info for England. It says drinking is dropping but the young are most likely to binge.

For those who want to think drinking alcohol is safe please go the Drink Aware website and take the Self Assessment. Drinkaware is funded by the UK sellers of Alcohol; it is not an anti-alcohol group.

Jengie

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
First lets deal with some statistics about alcohol culture. The latest social survey info for England.

Yes, see above.

And yes to the health point - but that's sort of orthogonal to the discussion.

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Jengie jon

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Yeah

and it does not agree with all, for instance, they are quite clear that young people are most likely to binge drink when they do drink.

This long term has less of a health risk than regular heavy drinking. So older people are more likely to have drinking related health problems but younger still to adopt the binge pattern of drinking.

Jengie

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Grec Man
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Monks have always been associated with brewing [excellent] beer, and I can't see why drinking in moderation is bad. However, there should be care for people for whom alcohol is a problem - making sure they are given something else at a celebration.

At the Bruderhof we enjoy a drink now and then as part of the social life of the community. It is funny how people assume that we don't drink, and are always reassured that we are actually normal people when we correct them on that point!

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Grec Man:
Monks have always been associated with brewing [excellent] beer, and I can't see why drinking in moderation is bad.

Mind you, the
products of a certain monastery in Devon seemed to have (sadly) gained a poor reputation in recent years ...

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Bishops Finger
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No wonder, if it tastes like Ribena mixed with Benylin*!

[Projectile]

(*for non-Uklanders - an over-the-counter cough mixture. Tastes mildly yucky, and doesn't really work. IMHO. YMMV)

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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