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Source: (consider it) Thread: Withdrawal From EU Bill
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

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mr cheesy:
quote:
I'm sorry if I've said this repeatedly before, but the real problem is not when or if EU workers leave the UK (which they're very likely to, whatever happens), but when all those unemployed and retired people in Europe are forced to return home.
No, I can't understand it either. In which alternative reality is it a good idea to exchange large numbers of young, fit, well-qualified people of working age for a bunch of (only moderately well-off) pensioners?

Mind you, Brexit will be a good thing for the rest of Europe. Their brain drains will go into reverse.

[ 21. July 2017, 12:07: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posts: 3954 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Another point which has been drawn to my attention by Gove's speech today. Clause 11 of the bill seems to suggest that powers retained from the EU will be held in Westminster, even when they are in areas that are otherwise devolved.

So, for example, agriculture. Gove said some things about agriculture and the environment in Wales - which ordinarily he has no powers over as they're devolved issues. But according to this bill, he'd - personally - take back the powers to make these kinds of decision.

Quite what those powers would include is anyone's guess; however it appears that if a decision is made (for example) to allow fracking, to have free reign for GM crops, to cut environmental red tape, then those things can be enforced by the Westminster government over the heads of any decisions in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Furthermore, it appears that if the government was to get into a trade discussion with some large international partners which had different attitudes to some issues than we're used to with the EU, then the UK government can make decisions on behalf of everyone without even discussing it with the devolved assemblies.

So imagine if Trump's America wants a trade deal, but one of the conditions is that large US medical insurance companies must be able to bid for NHS contracts. If the Welsh government said "woo, hang on a second, we're not selling off the NHS", the Westminster government can just say "psh, who cares what you think, we're doing this from now on".

Marvellous. Bye bye devolution.

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arse

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
A typical article on EEA, as far as I can see. I'm not sure that calling it the Norway option is politic, but never mind.

Well, it was politic at one point. In that there was a contingent of people (middle aged pub bores) who delighted in pointing out that the EEC that was the subject of the original referendum was more of a pure trading area at the time - and were often fond of pointing to Norway as a possible model.

Pre the referendum both Farage and Hannan were fond of pointing to Norway as post-Brexit future (Hannan in a characteristic flight of sophistry thought that the UK could do even better than the EFTA model).

Of course, reality now dictates otherwise in the minds of the Brexiters, Largely - it seems - because of the stance of the right-wing press.

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quetzalcoatl
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There was a UKIP woman on Newsnight last night, (Suzanne Evans), who was ranting and raving that a transition was a way of stopping Brexit altogether. This may be true, of course, for some people.

But she kept saying that we should just leave now. They should have had a business person on who exports to the EU, and would be faced with border checks immediately, including origin of manufacture checks, if we left now. Plus tariffs.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Alex Cockell

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# 7487

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If we have to leave -I hope we become Norway... and stay in the EEA for a long time.. cos it may be possible with a change in Govt - that we return...
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Ricardus
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# 8757

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
So, for example, agriculture. Gove said some things about agriculture and the environment in Wales - which ordinarily he has no powers over as they're devolved issues. But according to this bill, he'd - personally - take back the powers to make these kinds of decision.

Quite what those powers would include is anyone's guess; however it appears that if a decision is made (for example) to allow fracking, to have free reign for GM crops, to cut environmental red tape, then those things can be enforced by the Westminster government over the heads of any decisions in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Private Eye had an interesting article a few months ago that claimed the Welsh and Scottish assemblies have the right to determine agricultural subsidies. This right is currently merely theoretical because subsidies are decided by the EU, but post-Brexit they could create a sort of internal trade war between English, Welsh and Scottish farmers.

I'm not sure how sound the basis of this claim was, though.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Cod
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# 2643

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
...except for all these fabulous deals that the rest of the world is busy lining up to make with us...

<pauses to scan horizon for mob of trade negotiators from non-EU nations>

Jam tomorrow, everyone!

They can't because the EU warned them to
back off.

However, I'm sure you won't starve, despite Brussels' machinations.

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Private Eye had an interesting article a few months ago that claimed the Welsh and Scottish assemblies have the right to determine agricultural subsidies. This right is currently merely theoretical because subsidies are decided by the EU, but post-Brexit they could create a sort of internal trade war between English, Welsh and Scottish farmers.

I'm not sure how sound the basis of this claim was, though.

I talked to a knowledgeable Welsh politician about this. The way that he explained it is that (a) recent court cases have underlined that the devolved assemblies are only able to function at the behest of Westminster, so the powers can be taken back if Westminster decides and (b) the current wording of the EU bill states that powers which are currently determined in the EU would be taken back into the Westminster government even where the devolved assemblies currently exercise those powers.

So, for example, the EU determines agricultural subsidies, which are administered by the Welsh Government for Welsh farmers. According to this bill, at Brexit it will be for Westminster to determine how much British farmers get in subsidies and for what, not for the Welsh Government. Which is a problem, given that the Welsh Government currently has devolved powers for agriculture, albeit within the framework of EU directives.

If I understand correctly the comment about PI, that report would have been written before this bill was published. This bill might even have been written in this was as a response to the report in PI..

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arse

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Jane R
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# 331

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So the Brexiteers were right: someone IS taking back control.

It would have been nice if they'd explained in advance just *who* would be taking back control. I think the Scots noticed all on their own...

Posts: 3954 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
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Cod:
quote:
They can't because the EU warned them to back off.
Britain is still a member of the EU at the moment and not entitled to conduct trade negotiations on its own. The (rest of the) EU is within its rights.

You think we won't starve? That's nice. What justification do you have for this rose-tinted view of our future, because this guy thinks we might. And whatever you may think of his politics, he is well-qualified to talk about the security of our food supply.

[ 24. July 2017, 11:05: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Cod
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# 2643

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Britain can't conclude trade deals. But there is no reason at all why it can't negotiate deals to put in place once Brexit happens. But the EU doesn't want that to happen. Now, I am not a Brexiteer, but as there is no legal impediment, it is possible to speculate that the EU is playing dirty tricks.

As regards your link: Jay Rayner is a restaurant critic. While I can understand his concerns that the supply of truffles might be interrupted, this in no way qualifies him as an expert in the view he expresses. This is pure hyperbole and discredits the cause of those who wish to see the UK remain in the single market, let alone the EU as a whole.

--------------------
"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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Jane R
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He's a journalist and has written a book (pre-Brexit) on the subject of food security. He was asked to contribute to the DEFRA consultation.

I ask again: what qualifications do you have to show that your opinion on this issue is more valuable than his?

[ 24. July 2017, 11:26: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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hosting/

To prevent a proliferation of Brexit threads, please keep the conversation on this thread confined to the specifics of the Withdrawal From EU Bill.

Thanks.

/hosting

(I'll be answering q's post above in a non-hostly capacity on the other thread when I get a minute)

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Jane R
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Eutychus: sorry.

However, the food security/agriculture tangent is somewhat relevant to the Withdrawal from EU Bill, as the Welsh farming industry is beginning to realise.

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mr cheesy
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fwiw, I think the Wales point is relevant to a discussion about the EU bill (as I said, it is explicitly mentioned in the text of the bill) but the general trade-with-australia point isn't.

I've continued with a discussion of that point on the Brexit thread.

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arse

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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hosting/

To clarify: the OP was about understanding the wording of the bill. The thread's drifted a bit since then, so reining it in a bit was overdue - sorry about that.

I think it's probably best to corral it back to discussing the actual wording by the Ship's resident I-Am-Not-A-Lawyers, and have discussion of the implications back on the other thread.

If you want to argue for further Brexit threads, let's do it in the Styx.

/hosting

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Cod
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# 2643

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
He's a journalist and has written a book (pre-Brexit) on the subject of food security. He was asked to contribute to the DEFRA consultation.

I ask again: what qualifications do you have to show that your opinion on this issue is more valuable than his?

Big wow. There are plenty of journalists writing books on subjects they know a bit about. We have rather too many of such books.

As for me: I have no qualifications at all, and even if I did, why should you believe some random name on the Internet? I simply note the fact that the average developed nation outside the EU has pretty decent food security. To state that one needs to be an "expert" (ie, make a living writing for the papers and publishing the odd book) to point this out is as ridiculous as stating that the UK will face food shortages after Brexit. It's in the same league as the rather different claims made by the likes of Boris.

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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