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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The social-progressive mindset
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Seriously, do you not normally subscribe to notions like "the same work for the same pay"? Do you not consider it unfair that someone who hasn't worked gets as much money as someone who has?
Of course. It's human nature to compare ourselves with others. Can't we all identify with those who've worked all day ? Just like we have sympathy for the Prodigal Son's hard-working elder brother.
But the parables are saying that shouldn't be our reaction.
It's our unredeemed fallen human nature that makes the first-hired workers unsatisfied with their ducat per day when they see others getting a ducat for an hour's work. Our hardness of heart that means we cannot take pleasure in another's good fortune.
Clearly this is all meant primarily as a metaphor that's about salvation for those who don't comply with all the rituals of Jewish religious law.
But it's a truth about human nature nonetheless. The sooner you're reconciled to people being undeservedly richer or paid a higher rate or promoted faster than you are, the happier you'll be.
I suspect where we differ is that you want to see this parable as being about eliminating differentials and paying everyone the same. When it clearly isn't.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Ah. Poor people just have to get used to other people having lots and them having fuck all.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I can't help noticing that for all your talk of being fair and unbiased (as if they were the same thing) this model rather favours the rich. Which the gospel never, ever does.
I don't recognise what you describe as being Christianity. How is it good news for the poor - "stay poor and be happy about it"? Where is the freedom for captives? Where is the release of the oppressed? You are calling them to revel in their captivity, to acquiesce in their oppression.
There is no Go- in your Gospell. Láthspell I name you, Ill news.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... And the form that involves screwing the rich comes out of the envy in the human heart and not out of the text of the gospel. ...
So how do you explain the statements of the Church Fathers on the rich and the poor? In case you missed them:
quote:
How can I make you realize the misery of the poor? How can I make you understand that your wealth comes from their weeping?
Basil of Caesarea, 330-370 A.D.
Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours but theirs.
John Chrysostom, 347-407 AD
You are not making a gift of your possession to the poor person. You are handing over to him what is his.
Ambrose of Milan, 340-397.
Instead of the tithes which the law commanded, the Lord said to divide everything we have with the poor. And he said to love not only our neighbors but also our enemies, and to be givers and sharers not only with the good but also to be liberal givers toward those who take away our possessions.
Irenaeus, 130-200 AD
How do you interpret any of those statements to mean "rich people should keep their stuff"? They're also pretty clear that the onus is on the rich to share willingly, not on the poor to be happy with their lot ...
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... The sooner you're reconciled to people being undeservedly richer or paid a higher rate or promoted faster than you are, the happier you'll be.
So your Good News is Hakuna Matata. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
I suspect where we differ is that you want to see this parable as being about eliminating differentials and paying everyone the same. When it clearly isn't.
Another interpretation is that the vineyard owner wanted everyone to get a living wage for the day.
Anyway, I have seen the Gospel According to Russ in the hymnal:
quote:
3.
The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them high and lowly,
And ordered their estate.
All Things Bright and Beautiful
That verse has been cut at every church I've ever been to, probably because most people recognize it as Victorian social commentary, not Christianity.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I don't recognise what you describe as being Christianity. How is it good news for the poor - "stay poor and be happy about it"? Where is the freedom for captives? Where is the release of the oppressed? You are calling them to revel in their captivity, to acquiesce in their oppression.
Good news! I'm going to take away your envy for the rich and everything is going to be just fine!
This is so ridiculous. Russ is clearly playing games with us.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
This is so ridiculous. Russ is clearly playing games with us.
It seemed from the start that the thread had a kind of exculpatory purpose.
"Lord God, when you judge, do not be deaf to the shouts of the poor; bring havoc to the madness of oppressors."
Those crazy Catholics.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
This is so ridiculous. Russ is clearly playing games with us.
Yeah, if only someone had made that observation before. Multiple times. On more than one thread....
[ 21. November 2017, 13:46: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
They're also pretty clear that the onus is on the rich to share willingly, not on the poor to be happy with their lot ...
"Willingly" being a fairly key word. There's no inherent hypocrisy in believing both that the rich should share their wealth and that they shouldn't be forced to do so.
As for the workers in the vineyard, one thing that strikes me about this discussion is that the owner still gives those who had worked all day their full due, rather than reducing their wage in order to finance the extra wages of those who worked less. At the end of the day nobody has less than they started off with, it's just that some have the same and others have far more. Earthly models of equality/equity/justice/whatever tend to involve some people getting considerably less than they start off with.
Of course, the vineyard owner also has the not inconsiderable problem of working out how on earth to convince anyone to work all day for him tomorrow when they know they'll get paid the same amount if they only turn up for the last hour. But I guess that's why it's generally considered to be a parable about salvation rather than economics ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
As for the workers in the vineyard, one thing that strikes me about this discussion is that the owner still gives those who had worked all day their full due, rather than reducing their wage in order to finance the extra wages of those who worked less. At the end of the day nobody has less than they started off with, it's just that some have the same and others have far more. Earthly models of equality/equity/justice/whatever tend to involve some people getting considerably less than they start off with.
I don't know, I'm not sure this is more than a semantic difference. I suspect if you put it to a Deliveroo worker that he'd be getting £40 for 8 days of work and at the end of the day he found out that someone got £40 for 1 hour of work, he'd be angry.
He's likely to be arguing that if the employer can pay some other idiot £40 for sitting around for 7 hours of the day, he can pay a bit more than the £40 for slogging around on a bike for 7 hours.
I'm sure almost every day wage worker will think this is unfair and that the "lazy" worker has taken some of their potential earnings.
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arse
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Of course, the vineyard owner also has the not inconsiderable problem of working out how on earth to convince anyone to work all day for him tomorrow when they know they'll get paid the same amount if they only turn up for the last hour. But I guess that's why it's generally considered to be a parable about salvation rather than economics .
Doesn't stop (some) Christians from justifying screwing the poor though.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
They're also pretty clear that the onus is on the rich to share willingly, not on the poor to be happy with their lot ...
"Willingly" being a fairly key word. There's no inherent hypocrisy in believing both that the rich should share their wealth and that they shouldn't be forced to do so.
Indeed; the argument is rather that that model didn't work - and indeed gave rise in Victorian times to the conditions in which desire for radical change - revolutionary change even - could grow.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I can't help noticing that for all your talk of being fair and unbiased (as if they were the same thing) this model rather favours the rich. Which the gospel never, ever does.
I don't recognise what you describe as being Christianity. How is it good news for the poor - "stay poor and be happy about it"?
The ideal I'm putting before you is one of impartiality - of a framework of moral rights and duties that are the same for everyone, black or white, male or female, rich or poor. Not setting out to favour anybody. No special pleading.
I put it to you that the good news for the poor that we read of in the Bible is nothing to do with increased disposable income or reducing costs of living. It's not material. It's that they/we are equally children of a loving Father, equal in dignity, equally accepted, equally important to God.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the poor in spirit. The meek shall inherit the earth. You know the words as well as I do.
That was good news to those who lived in a society where poverty was seen as a mark of divine disfavour. I'm sorry if it seems like Old News to our post-Christian society...
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Pie in the sky when you die, and an economic system that fails the weakest. You can put it to me if you like but I'm not interested in it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
The ideal I'm putting before you is one of impartiality - of a framework of moral rights and duties that are the same for everyone, black or white, male or female, rich or poor. Not setting out to favour anybody. No special pleading.
I suggest that perhaps you are blind to your own special pleading. Firstly, you are ignoring the rather thorny questions around the initial acquisition of wealth. Secondly, the one theocratic society that is set forth in the Bible bears no resemblance to the winner take all society you suggest should prevail - and in fact the secular judgement that comes upon this society is said to be caused specifically because they adopted a more zero sum approach.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
The ideal I'm putting before you is one of impartiality - of a framework of moral rights and duties that are the same for everyone, black or white, male or female, rich or poor. Not setting out to favour anybody. No special pleading.
No special pleading? So somehow you've inverted the biblical idea of "from those who have been given more, more will be expected" and how have it as "from those who have more, only as much will be expected as from those who have the least".
quote:
I put it to you that the good news for the poor that we read of in the Bible is nothing to do with increased disposable income or reducing costs of living. It's not material. It's that they/we are equally children of a loving Father, equal in dignity, equally accepted, equally important to God.
I put it to you that you know nothing about the bible. Which is constantly talking about protection of the weak, poor and the orphan. It is absolutely material.
What is Jubilee if it is not material?? What is leaving grain unharvested in the field for the poor if it is not material?
quote:
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the poor in spirit. The meek shall inherit the earth. You know the words as well as I do.
That was good news to those who lived in a society where poverty was seen as a mark of divine disfavour. I'm sorry if it seems like Old News to our post-Christian society...
Heaven on earth
We need it now
I'm sick of all of this
Hanging around
Sick of sorrow
Sick of pain
Sick of hearing again and again
That there's gonna be
Peace on earth
(U2)
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arse
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Changing the rules to benefit those you sympathize with (and disbenefit those you don't) is the way of bias. That's the approach I'm arguing against.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I suspect we'd all agree that Christianity involves concern for the poor and outcast.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I put it to you that the good news for the poor that we read of in the Bible is nothing to do with increased disposable income or reducing costs of living. It's not material.
So all that jazz about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, tending the sick, and visiting the imprisoned is a bunch of passé, not really Christian stuff. The important thing is to be "concerned" about the poor and outcast. Concern costs nothing and, more importantly in your estimation, does not provide any tangible "benefit".
quote:
For I was hungry and you gave me an expression of deep concern, I was thirsty and you gave me a lecture on the importance of proper hydration, I was a stranger and you explained the laws against loitering, I needed clothes and you gave me fashion tips, I was sick and you chided me on unhealthy lifestyle choices, I was in prison and you explained how the legal system is perfectly impartial.’
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I'm sorry if it seems like Old News to our post-Christian society...
And I'm sorry if I return to a point I've made before but are you saying that the *Pope* is "post-Christian"?!?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
On impartiality, I am reminded of this:
quote:
Anatole France: The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I had an enjoyable (not) time re-reading through this thread to try to get a handle on wtf Russ is going on about.
At every turn his utterings have been trounced. His biblical knowledge is suspect. His assertions are unproven. His understanding of economics and politics and history and accounting is dubious.
It's an argument that is so off-beam that he cannot even attempt to justify it as a biblically based idea, and instead just resorts to claims of orthodoxy which do not stand up to any scrutiny. One can disagree with the Pope's statements (of course), but it is hard to argue that it isn't at least some kind of authority on orthodoxy. One can argue with the other church fathers, but one can't pretend that they didn't exist.
[ 22. November 2017, 10:23: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Thing is, the Church has been facing this tendency to see the "Good News to the poor" metaphorically (and therefore non-challengingly) since the beginning.
James:
"If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? "
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I fail to see how I could be screwing the rich because of the envy in my heart. I am rich. I am deeply conscious of how financially well off I am compared to nearly all my peers (never mind on a global comparison).
I'm thoroughly in favour of policies that take some money off me in order to direct it to the welfare of people who have far fewer financial resources than I do.
"Envy" is nothing more than a caricature conjured up by people who can't conceive of wealthy people being left-wing. To whom everything is some kind of battle and genuine self-sacrifice, even to a minor degree doesn't exist. To whom there is no such thing as society.
[ 22. November 2017, 11:51: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I’m the same.
I am rich. I own two houses and a large new car, I go on at least four foreign holidays a year. I retired on a deputy headteacher’s salary.
But I very much believe in taxation and social progressive policies. My politics are very left wing indeed. I believe all businesses should be run on a mutual or not-for-profit basis.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To whom there is no such thing as society.
Here's the bottom line. Basically people who worship Ayn Rand.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Pie in the sky when you die, and an economic system that fails the weakest. You can put it to me if you like but I'm not interested in it.
You're free to turn your back, of course. But it remains that the Good News is about the resurrection and not about the distribution of wealth or economic systems.
Yes, one of the fruits of the Spirit is generosity. But what happens to a Christian's money is a relatively unimportant consequence of their relationship with God. If you really think that the money is what's important then you've missed the point of it all.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm thoroughly in favour of policies that take some money off me in order to direct it to the welfare of people who have far fewer financial resources than I do.
Your money you can direct to the welfare of anyone you choose, without waiting for anyone to enact policies.
Be honest - the policies are about taking money off other people.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Pie in the sky when you die, and an economic system that fails the weakest. You can put it to me if you like but I'm not interested in it.
You're free to turn your back, of course. But it remains that the Good News is about the resurrection and not about the distribution of wealth or economic systems.
Yes, one of the fruits of the Spirit is generosity. But what happens to a Christian's money is a relatively unimportant consequence of their relationship with God. If you really think that the money is what's important then you've missed the point of it all.
If you miss out on your duty to others, especially when is blessed with money compare to others on God's earth, one is neglecting stewardship to a dangerous degree.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Pie in the sky when you die, and an economic system that fails the weakest. You can put it to me if you like but I'm not interested in it.
You're free to turn your back, of course. But it remains that the Good News is about the resurrection and not about the distribution of wealth or economic systems.
It's about the Kingdom of God. A place where people aren't oppressed, powerless and beholden to the rich. A Kingdom which starts now, amongst us.
quote:
Yes, one of the fruits of the Spirit is generosity. But what happens to a Christian's money is a relatively unimportant consequence of their relationship with God. If you really think that the money is what's important then you've missed the point of it all.
No, it's actually very important, because in this world how we behave economically has by far the biggest impact on others, the more so the wealthier we are, which is why so much responsibility is placed on the wealthy, because what they do with their wealth has a big impact on others. Hence camels and eyes of needles.
Your spiritualised gospel is toothless
It changes nothing, fails to bring in the Kingdom of God.
[ 22. November 2017, 20:32: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To whom there is no such thing as society.
Here's the bottom line. Basically people who worship Ayn Rand.
And Thatcher, who I blame for much that stinks about attitudes in the UK
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Be honest - the policies are about taking money off other people.
Absolutely, on the basis that they too benefit (usually equally disproportionately) from living somewhere with a rule of law and a functioning state.
What you subscribe to isn't conservative or orthodoxy, it's gnosticism.
[ 22. November 2017, 20:57: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Your spiritualised gospel is toothless
It changes nothing, fails to bring in the Kingdom of God. [/QB]
I don't know the source, but the phrase
Too heavenly minded to be of any earthly use springs to mind.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Be honest - the policies are about taking money off other people.
Absolutely, on the basis that they too benefit (usually equally disproportionately) from living somewhere with a rule of law and a functioning state.
Part of that functioning state requires the money/labour of the not rich.
The honest* interpretation of Russ’ position is the justification of reverse Robin Hood.
*Well, it mightn’t be dishonest. It could be hopelessly stupid and/or ignorant.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Your spiritualised gospel is toothless
I find that a very telling phrase. If the version of the gospel that I learned has been spiritualised, that means the gospel wasn't spiritual in the first place.
What is that you think the original gospel was ? Economic ? Political ?
You believe in Jesus the economic commentator ?
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I am rich. I own two houses and a large new car, I go on at least four foreign holidays a year.
I have no expectation of ever in my life owning a new car. And my wife and I have had one holiday in the last ten years, kindly paid for by family.
But, so long as your money is honestly earned, I defend your right to spend it as you see fit.
And I know from your posts on the Ship that you're a good person who spends her energy on family and Guide Dogs. Your riches do not define who you are.
What do you think of Mr Cheesy's comment (top of p9) that the gospel message for the wealthy is
quote:
Give all your stuff away, stop being such a total shit
?
I think there's a nastiness in his belief system that you don't deserve and that doesn't come from the Bible.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Your spiritualised gospel is toothless
I find that a very telling phrase. If the version of the gospel that I learned has been spiritualised, that means the gospel wasn't spiritual in the first place.
What is that you think the original gospel was ? Economic ? Political ?
You believe in Jesus the economic commentator ?
It's social. It's about relationship. It's about establishing the Kingdom of God, where the standards of the world, the racing to the top to be the richest and most powerful, are turned on their heads.
The gospel is economic, political, social and spiritual. Anything it isn't diminishes it. Your problem is not that your gospel is spiritual, but that it is only spiritual - it has no impact on the world; the poor are left in the shit.
The early church clearly thought there were economic implications of the gospel; they held everything in common. The monastics through the years have similarly eschewed possessions.
Where the church has ignored these implications and preached a solely spiritual gospel, that is where it has failed. It failed when the monks became rich and the abbots lived like lords. It fails today where the contributions of the faithful buy flashy megachurches. It fails when the poor are seen as moral failures rather than the objects and recipients of God's favour.
I'm amazed you've missed all this and think it's just about going to heaven when you die.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I should add that there is a bright side to all this - defending a full gospel against a narrow Spirit in the Sky gospel has got me more positive and enthusiastic about it than I've been in years.
Law of unintended consequences for some, methinks.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
It's been interesting reading these last pages of comments while I've been preparing my sermon for this Sunday; I'm preaching on the Lectionary Gospel passage, which is the parable of the sheep and the goats.
Now, there's sorts of in the commentaries etc. I've been reading about who exactly the "nations" gathered before Jesus are, whether the people Jesus refers to as his "brothers and sisters" are Christians or anyone in need (I believe it's the latter, but I've seen several arguments in favour of the former), and these debates have been played out on the Ship several times before.
But above and beyond those debates, 2 things strike me. The first, of course, is the call implicit in it to feed the hungry, visit the lonely and sick, welcoming the stranger etc.
But the second thing that struck me goes beyond even that: that these actions are made the criteria of Jesus' judgement on the nations. Or, when Jesus is king, it's not the powerful, rich etc. whose needs set the criteria for who "gets in", it's the hungry, thirsty, imprisoned, strangers etc. The Kingdom of God isn't run for the desires of the rich and the powerful, but for the needs of the "least of these".
All of which seems utterly incompatible with Russ' ideas of the poor simply accepting that there will be richer, more powerful people above them. If we pray "Your Kingdom come, your will be done" - which is surely a prayer for the present, not just for the future - then how can we just shrug our shoulders at these injustices etc.? We might accept that the day when they will be fully addressed lies far off; but this parable (and, as others have said on this thread, the whole of Scripture) surely refuses to allow us to claim that means we don't have to do anything now.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
What do you think of Mr Cheesy's comment (top of p9) that the gospel message for the wealthy is
quote:
Give all your stuff away, stop being such a total shit
Jesus said exactly the same.
I can’t do it, any more than the rich man He said it to could. I give a lot to charity, probably more than 10%, but that’s not enough - and I know it.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm thoroughly in favour of policies that take some money off me in order to direct it to the welfare of people who have far fewer financial resources than I do.
Your money you can direct to the welfare of anyone you choose, without waiting for anyone to enact policies.
Be honest - the policies are about taking money off other people.
Don't fucking tell to me "be honest".
The policies are about pooling resources. About the benefits of COLLECTIVE decisions. About everyone contributing money to build one road instead of 500 people each building a pitiful dirt track (assuming they can afford a dirt track). About having one system of telephone lines instead of what first happened in the early days of the telephone in the USA where each company did their own separate lines and stores needed 3 phones so that customers of each company could reach them.
About common garbage collection, common sewerage, common electricity infrastructure.
About a common health system so that, if I'm ever seriously ill, the facilities that other people have been using for years are available at the moment that I need them.
About my community being a nice place to be, a safe place to be. About spending a little to prevent problems that would cost more.
If I'm going to "be honest", people who don't grasp the massive benefits they receive from living in a society that is ordered and regulated and that takes care of a thousand things that they then don't have to constantly think about absolute enrage me. It's the very ESSENCE of taking things for granted to be blind to all of the systems behind the scenes that make life easier for everyone.
There are ANY NUMBER of things that even with my relative wealth I couldn't manage on my own, that can only be managed by using the resources of thousands if not millions of people.
Telling me that I can spend my money how I like? Fine, Russ, I'll spend it on a new highway. Which will extend a few hundred metres. Buy your own.
[ 24. November 2017, 22:01: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
The first, of course, is the call implicit in it to feed the hungry, visit the lonely and sick, welcoming the stranger etc...
...All of which seems utterly incompatible with Russ' ideas of the poor simply accepting that there will be richer, more powerful people above them.
Not "above them".
Of course there will be richer and more powerful people than me or you, just as there will cleverer people and better-looking people and more charismatic people and more eloquent people and more talented people. And happier people.
But they're not above us, because we too are children of God.
Accepting the existence of those richer or happier or more talented people, treating them as we would have those who are poorer, sadder or less talented treat us, without envy, without demonising, without writing them off as "total shits", is part of the way we're supposed to live.
And there's no contradiction between that and being generous in helping our neighbours in trouble and helping the strangers that we meet, feeding them when they're hungry etc.
I'm not for a moment denying that Jesus exhorts us to welcome the stranger, clothe the naked etc.
I'm denying that the prospect of Boogie being persuaded to sell her second home and share the proceeds with us poorer Shipmates is what Christians mean by the Good News.
Karl thinks I've spiritualised the gospel; I think it was always meant to be spiritual and he's politicised it.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Accepting the existence of those richer or happier or more talented people, treating them as we would have those who are poorer, sadder or less talented treat us, without envy, without demonising, without writing them off as "total shits", is part of the way we're supposed to live.
A caricature.
When you put something in quotes, who are you quoting? As far as I can see, no-one in this thread.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Accepting the existence of those richer or happier or more talented people, treating them as we would have those who are poorer, sadder or less talented treat us, without envy, without demonising, without writing them off as "total shits", is part of the way we're supposed to live.
A caricature.
When you put something in quotes, who are you quoting? As far as I can see, no-one in this thread.
In form, his use of scare quotes is legitimate. However, in substance, it is as much a fail as the rest of his posts on this thread.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
What do you think of Mr Cheesy's comment (top of p9) that the gospel message for the wealthy is
quote:
Give all your stuff away, stop being such a total shit
Jesus said exactly the same.
I can’t do it, any more than the rich man He said it to could. I give a lot to charity, probably more than 10%, but that’s not enough - and I know it.
Well, last night, as I was walking home, I'm quite sure that the two kids settling in for the night on the sidewalk thought I was a shit. As did the guy with the swollen and scabrous foot at Mac's. And since I walked by all of them with money and food in my bag, I don't think I can tell them they're wrong.
(I can live with myself because I direct some of my many bucks to more organized ways of helping, and vote and write letters to assorted politicians. I won't do piecemeal efforts.)
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... Accepting the existence of those richer or happier or more talented people, treating them as we would have those who are poorer, sadder or less talented treat us, without envy, without demonising, without writing them off as "total shits", is part of the way we're supposed to live. ...
That is truly the most bizarre version of the Golden Rule I've ever seen: Treat those who have more gold the way you would like people with less gold to treat you.
quote:
...
Karl thinks I've spiritualised the gospel; I think it was always meant to be spiritual and he's politicised it.
The Gospel is for this world as well as the next. And you're still ignoring the words of the Church Fathers. Nor have you examined the motives which drive people to take more and more from those who have less and less. Your argument is rooted in the unspoken assertion that greed is ok but envy is not.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
A caricature.
When you put something in quotes, who are you quoting? As far as I can see, no-one in this thread.
He's kind-of, sort-of quoting stroke misquoting me.
Anyway, it seems to me that there is quite a big difference between two position illustrated here.
First, people who recognise that they're rich, that they have a load of unearned stuff. People who hear the gospel call and who see the incompatibility of being rich and entering the Kingdom of God. People who become (to use Kierkegaard again) Knights of Faith, casting off the despair of knowing that there is a contradiction but still keep going and still keep engaged and aware of the contradiction that they are living.
And on the other hand, those who say that being rich doesn't matter, that God is only interest in the spiritual stuff anyway.
When I met people who lived in absolute poverty, I saw how they were tied into cycles that it was impossible to break out from. I've come to believe that many of us are tied into cycles of wealth.
I don't think that's hand-wringing, I think that's just the truth. Each of us has to find ways to live with ourselves, within the tension of the obvious biblical calling about poverty and wealth.
Pretending it isn't there is not really an option.
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Of course the gospel is spiritual. It is however not merely spiritual. You think God is happy with our current distribution of wealth? It's OK that people die for want of the basics while others squirrel it away in tax havens? The gospel has nothing to say to that? The gospel for a starving child is just "God loves you even though you're dying"? The gospel is political, just as it is economic, because that is how people interact with the imago dei in each other.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Possibly interestingly, Latin American revolutionary Che Guevarra said that it was Jesus who made him a Marxist.
Make of that what you will. I've just always found that an interesting quote.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
That is truly the most bizarre version of the Golden Rule I've ever seen: Treat those who have more gold the way you would like people with less gold to treat you.
It seems ok to me, so long as the corollary also applies: treat those who have less gold the way you would like those with more gold to treat you.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
That is truly the most bizarre version of the Golden Rule I've ever seen: Treat those who have more gold the way you would like people with less gold to treat you.
It seems ok to me, so long as the corollary also applies: treat those who have less gold the way you would like those with more gold to treat you.
The problem is that it ignores how wealth is generated.
"Oh people, just be happy and nice" does nothing to redress social inequities and nicely ignores that the wealthy are rich from the exploitation of the poor.*
As noted above by orfeo here, and by others on nearly every thread raised on this subject, the rich do not exist in a self-funded bubble but in one paid for by everyone.
There is no such thing as a "self-made" person, they is all beholden to the community to make their wealth possible and therefore they should contribute back.
*Direct and/or indirect
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Nor is wealth any kind of measure of how hard you've worked or "earned" it. For one thing, it's been repeatedly demonstrated that the best chance of being wealthy is to be born into it.
And just as importantly, society decides to value particular skills more highly than others, and it's not necessarily a reflection of the amount of effort put in.
I don't think I work that hard. I just happen to have a brain that is good at certain things that are sought after. And while some of that is work, a lot of it just the way I was born. Plus I was born into decent circumstances with a pretty stable home environment that made it easy to go and study.
[ 25. November 2017, 22:08: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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