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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Nazis are coming to town - what do you do?
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
As an antidote to the becrogglement that the state that gave American Nixon and Reagan might also be home to racists and homophobes, here's a brief run-down on some often-forgotten history.
quote:
It’s a little hard to fathom today, but for many decades, Los Angeles was an unbelievably conservative city. Of course it was the home of Nixon and Reagan. In 1910, unionists bombed the Los Angeles Times because it was so anti-union. But the city’s right-wing history goes back much further, back to the beginning of American occupation. At that time, it was an incredibly violent city, even by western standards, with murder rates far higher than even the rest of California. John Mack Faragher’s new book details this in great detail, . . .
One of the issues Faragher goes into is that Los Angeles was a hotbed of secessionism and many in the white population there wanted to join the Confederacy. That’s because many southerners had moved there and many of them volunteered to fight for treason in defense of slavery.
Loomis then goes on to extensively quote another web source on the history of Civil War era secessionism in California.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Before I posted that, I did a quick search to verify. Just used "state with most hate groups", and confirmed that it's Calif.
Yes, I was just pointing out the difference between 'CA is the state with the most hate groups' vs 'CA is the state with the most members of hate groups'
quote:
I've wondered about gangs, too. Though I'm not sure that they're all necessarily about hating everyday people.
Well, a large number of them are drawn around ethnic lines. Though perhaps the factors Croesus points out are also one of the things that works itself out in terms of gangs in LA.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Fuck me blind. Back from 5 days of fun and this thread crushes my will to live before I can even finish reading it.
RuthW is correct in that armed citizens threaten democracy in the US.
However, Crœsos' counterpoint that the police are not there in equal measure for everyone* also threatens democracy.
If you do not stand up against injustice, you stand for it. Even if you do so passively.
Pretending you are concerned for the "good person" potentially within means you more accept the violence they do than have concern for the people they do it to.
*This is true everywhere, not just America.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Pretending you are concerned for the "good person" potentially within means you more accept the violence they do than have concern for the people they do it to.
{Clutches head}
Is there any way we can stop casting everything in terms of uncompromising binaries? If some saintly counter-protester who risked their life to stand up for what was right at Charlotteville can also find it in his/her heart to pray for / reach out to one of the Nazi idiots in the hopes of getting them to change their evil ways, I'm not going to tell that person they're supporting violence.
And this is not impossible. KKKers and Nazis have been converted before now.
And there's no "pretending" about it when someone attempts to redeem evil this way. It fucking hurts to reach out from the right side and attempt to redeem, rather than destroy, your persecutor.
But what's really getting me is the knife-edge binary that's being applied to about a zillion subjects Shipboard lately. As if nobody could ever get creative about redeeming evil. As if there was some sort of righteousness in blasting everybody who doesn't hold precisely one's own position-and-strategies with the firehose of condemnation.
If we could stop attacking one another, we might get more done.
[ 24. August 2017, 19:20: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Never said anyone is irredeemable. Never said one shouldn't try to redeem anyone.
What I am saying is that the posibility of redemption or change does not outweigh the necessity of confrontation. Methods are arguable, but visible it must be. If staying home and praying worked, we'd not be having this discussion.
Here is a time for trying to reach people, when they are marching isn't going to be one of them.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Never said anyone is irredeemable. Never said one shouldn't try to redeem anyone.
What I am saying is that the posibility of redemption or change does not outweigh the necessity of confrontation. Methods are arguable, but visible it must be. If staying home and praying worked, we'd not be having this discussion.
Here is a time for trying to reach people, when they are marching isn't going to be one of them.
It's how you're saying it. You're going OTT and potentially crashing into allies whose creativity might be useful. Why piss people off?
As for praying (never mind staying home, some people have to, I prefer to get out when I can)--how in the world do you know that does no good? It's logically impossible to prove one way or the other.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
What is a 'Patriot Prayer Rally'? What are they praying for, and - perhaps more pertinently - to whom are they intending to pray?
I can't imagine any of our political extremists doing anything comparable, not the EDL (English Defence League), not the BNP (British National Party), not UKIP (United Kingdom Independence Party), not the SWP (Socialist Workers Party), nor Respect (now I think defunct). Leaving aside the whiff of blasphemy about such a phrase, the concept of a Patriot Prayer Rally sounds from here just weird
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Pretending you are concerned for the "good person" potentially within means you more accept the violence they do than have concern for the people they do it to.
{Clutches head}
Is there any way we can stop casting everything in terms of uncompromising binaries?
If you insist.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If some saintly counter-protester who risked their life to stand up for what was right at Charlotteville can also find it in his/her heart to pray for / reach out to one of the Nazi idiots in the hopes of getting them to change their evil ways, I'm not going to tell that person they're supporting violence.
Wow, that was quick! What happened to eschewing uncompromising binaries?
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And this is not impossible. KKKers and Nazis have been converted before now.
Indeed. As I mentioned on the parallel Hell thread one such conversion was actually caught on tape at Charlottesville. One white supremacist stripped off that white polo they all seem to be wearing these days and suddenly he wasn't a white supremacist anymore. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Or, as he said to the videographer who captured it all, he was "barely" a white supremacist who had just turned up because "it's kind of a fun idea. Just being able to say 'white power', you know?"
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's how you're saying it. You're going OTT and potentially crashing into allies whose creativity might be useful. Why piss people off?
Firstly, is that really the metaphor you want to use in this context? [violent imagery at link]
Secondly, I'd argue that one of the contributing factors to the re-emergence of white supremacy in the U.S. is the way people always treat it with kid gloves. Soft-pedaling racism like you recommend is one of the reasons why Mr. Barely White Supremacist sees white power rallies as just a kind of harmless (for him) weekend fun.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
Secondly, I'd argue that one of the contributing factors to the re-emergence of white supremacy in the U.S. is the way people always treat it with kid gloves. Soft-pedaling racism like you recommend is one of the reasons why Mr. Barely White Supremacist sees white power rallies as just a kind of harmless (for him) weekend fun.
Agreed.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What is a 'Patriot Prayer Rally'? What are they praying for, and - perhaps more pertinently - to whom are they intending to pray?
I can't imagine any of our political extremists doing anything comparable, not the EDL (English Defence League), not the BNP (British National Party), not UKIP (United Kingdom Independence Party), not the SWP (Socialist Workers Party), nor Respect (now I think defunct). Leaving aside the whiff of blasphemy about such a phrase, the concept of a Patriot Prayer Rally sounds from here just weird
That's because political extremism in Britain has no visible religious component to speak of. It's difficult for our political extremists to rally around Christianity in any but the vaguest cultural sense because the indigenous community has become so secularised.
Public prayers might be just about tolerable at a 'traditional' British event, especially since a religious professional is likely to be in attendance. But religious professionals don't normally attend politically extremist gatherings in an official capacity, do they? And public prayer as led by laymen has no reality in British culture outside of explicitly religious settings.
If there's any kind of Nazi paganism in existence it has to keep itself well-hidden because, well, that's hardly a selling point. (It might be more tolerable in Scandinavia, where there remains a stronger folk memory of paganism.)
Northern Ireland may be an exception to this.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I didn't know that Slate columnist Dahlia Litwick is a member of a Reform Jewish congregation in Charlottesville. Here she reports on the effect of the white supremacy march upon her synagogue.
I believe that the time for ignoring them in hopes that they'll evaporate is gone. We've been doing that, and it hasn't worked. Let them know that they are condemned. Ostracize them, let them feel a price for their horrid beliefs. Let them know that future employers, future colleges, future girlfriends, will know. And if they post their own humiliating videos of themselves sobbing on camera, that's fine.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Croesos, what the hell do you mean I'm soft-pedaling racism? have you forgotten whom I'm married to?
And yes, I apologise for stuffing up my imagery. Did you think it was deliberate, or are you just getting in my face then?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
2200. The US Hispanic. Europe Arab. Little England Pakistani. Problem solved ... ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Some -ver7- creative people are going to meet the neo-Nazis in San Francisco. I particularly admire the flower child who says she's going to offer them flowers for their hair.
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Glad to hear they're planning on cleaning up after their...biological...protest, albeit on Sunday. I'd been wondering. The park rangers wouldn't like having to deal with that.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's how you're saying it. You're going OTT and potentially crashing into allies whose creativity might be useful. Why piss people off?
The way I am saying it. I shall not pretend not to be angry. I shall not pretend that I think all nazi types are merely damaged people waiting to be healed. What creative allies do you speak about?
Creatively sitting at home? I don't care. Creatively doing something constructive? I can support this. Not everyone is built for the front line, but it is no excuse for being passive.
quote:
As for praying (never mind staying home, some people have to, I prefer to get out when I can)--how in the world do you know that does no good? It's logically impossible to prove one way or the other.
Are there still hate groups? Then either prayer is less than completely efficacious or people are praying for hate. You can argue that it might do some good, but it is patently obvious that it does not do enough.
'Pray as if everything depends on God, work as if God doesn't exist.' Isn't this a Christian saying and common philosophy? People can pray all they wish, if that is all they do, then they are not doing enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re the comment about the effectiveness of talking to a Nazi over tea:
"How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes" (NPR). This has both a radio interview and an article about it.
I've heard a few interviews with this guy. He's really interesting. And part of what he does is to get Klan members to sit down for a talk with a black man--himself.
I highly recommend this.
CK also mentions working with EDL youth.
One on one, personal encounters have a chance of success. But this has bugger all to do with marches and large gatherings in a public setting.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
lB--
Well, as I mentioned, that was in response to someone's posted comment that they'd even be willing to sit down and have tea with a white supremacist, if it would do any good. The man in the article does something similar, and it evidently works--he's collected 200 KKK robes from men who left the KKK.
BTW, the quote you mentioned to LC is, IME:
Pray as if everything depends on God.
Work [or act] as if everything depends on you.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Right-wing SF rally cancelled due to security fears.
Though quote:
A "No Marxism in America" protest - planned for Sunday - is still due to go ahead in the ultraliberal bastion of Berkeley.
Do people really think America is at threat from Marxism?
[ 26. August 2017, 02:16: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Ian--
Re rally:
Yes, it's cancelled, by the organizer, though he plans a press meeting in another part of town. I think it's probably still wise to be cautious about the whole thing. He's really angry at SF, per his comments on radio. (BTW, he had a rally in Portland, OR, a couple of weeks ago, and it reportedly turned into a brawl.)
Maybe he and his groupies didn't want to protest in a cage here in SF? 'Cause that's basically what the powers that be created. Not only fences/barriers; but blocking traffic to various degrees. No cars or vehicles near the site. A little farther out, no public transportation. They made a large cage, but still a cage. (My earlier post links to maps at Funcheap.)
I don't know if the positive protests will still happen. I hope so. The dog poop protest at the rally site had to be cancelled, because local dog-owners can't get in there to leave the...gifts.
I'm a little worried that the white supremacist folks might go on a rampage.
Re anti-Marxism rally in Berkeley:
Well, "the People's Republic Of Berkeley" (nickname) is extremely liberal. Long history of protests there and on the campus of UC Berkeley, especially in the '60s/'70s. So doing an anti-Marxism protest *there* is sending a message. Liberal does not *necessarily* mean hard-core pacifist, though, so it's just as well they won't meet. Plus there've been recent bad incidents about whether ultra-conservative speakers can be there. (Seems like the worst trouble was caused by non-students going on campus and being violent.) I think one proposed speaker was Ann Coulter, and the other Milo Yiannopolos.
A lot of people are still thinking in Cold War terms. (Though with the way Russia is acting...) "Socialized medicine" is still widely considered bad. Etc.
If you want a local perspective, try SF Gate (a branch of the SF Chronicle). Right now, there are several related stories listed at the top of the front page, under "FAR-RIGHT RALLIES".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Soft-pedaling racism like you recommend...
Where was that?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I didn't see it anywhere, either.
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A German historian's advice. She recommends non-confrontation.
I don't hear Jesus disagreeing.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Croesos, what the hell do you mean I'm soft-pedaling racism?
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Soft-pedaling racism like you recommend...
Where was that?
I was specifically referring to your comment about "uncompromising binaries", which implies a willingness to compromise with racism. Also the way a lot of racists seems to count on cheap redemption of the sort you advocate, being accepted as decent people once they take off the Klan robes, even if it's just to run them through the wash. The aforementioned Mr. Barely White Supremacist comes to mind as someone counting on easy social redemption. Father Crossburner is another example, penning an ostensibly sorrowful essay that omits any details that might make him unsympathetic (such as the actual details of his crimes, the fact that he's never bothered to apologize to any of his victims, or paid the court-ordered restitution, or that his confession coincides not only with the demonstrations in Charlottesville but also with the Washington Post asking questions about his past). I accept that racists can actually change, but being so "compromising" with racists gives the impression that it's just some kind of harmless youthful indiscretion, or a bit of easy weekend fun that you can just slip into and out of like a white polo shirt, completely free of any long-term consequences.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And yes, I apologise for stuffing up my imagery. Did you think it was deliberate, or are you just getting in my face then?
I can't read your mind, just your posts, so I don't know what your intentions were. If it was deliberate it was horribly insensitive. If it was accidental it was horribly tone deaf.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Right-wing SF rally cancelled due to security fears.
Though quote:
A "No Marxism in America" protest - planned for Sunday - is still due to go ahead in the ultraliberal bastion of Berkeley.
Do people really think America is at threat from Marxism?
They will if they're told to. Worked in Weimar.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Croesos, what the hell do you mean I'm soft-pedaling racism?
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Soft-pedaling racism like you recommend...
Where was that?
I was specifically referring to your comment about "uncompromising binaries", which implies a willingness to compromise with racism.
Fuck that. You're begging the question in the purist sense of the word. "Uncompromising binaries" was my term for the attitude that demands either a resistance to evil up-to-and-including hands-around-the-throat violence, OR complete supine surrender to that evil. There are other options. As in the work of the man whose story Golden Key linked to--the one who's apparently managed to transform about 200 racists into ex-racists. "Uncompromising binaries" would lump that saint in with the supporters of the Ku Klux Klan. Which is about as fucked-up as it is possible to be, logically.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Also the way a lot of racists seems to count on cheap redemption of the sort you advocate, being accepted as decent people once they take off the Klan robes, even if it's just to run them through the wash. The aforementioned Mr. Barely White Supremacist comes to mind as someone counting on easy social redemption. Father Crossburner is another example, penning an ostensibly sorrowful essay that omits any details that might make him unsympathetic (such as the actual details of his crimes, the fact that he's never bothered to apologize to any of his victims, or paid the court-ordered restitution, or that his confession coincides not only with the demonstrations in Charlottesville but also with the Washington Post asking questions about his past). I accept that racists can actually change, but being so "compromising" with racists gives the impression that it's just some kind of harmless youthful indiscretion, or a bit of easy weekend fun that you can just slip into and out of like a white polo shirt, completely free of any long-term consequences.
None of this has anything at all to do with me. If you want to take potshots at these people, go ahead. Don't associate my name with it.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And yes, I apologise for stuffing up my imagery. Did you think it was deliberate, or are you just getting in my face then?
I can't read your mind, just your posts, so I don't know what your intentions were. If it was deliberate it was horribly insensitive. If it was accidental it was horribly tone deaf.
Well, excuse me, Mr. Perfect-in-all-your-ways. Please, go ahead and assume it was on purpose. In fact, please assume it was done MALICIOUSLY. Because obviously a person of American Indian descent, married and mother to Vietnamese, goddaughter of a black family from Missippi, and stepdaughter to a Mexican American--Yeah, obviously I'm a damned racist.
And yes, I noticed the way you completely skipped over the issue of my marriage. Your courage in addressing it astounds me.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
"Uncompromising binaries" was my term for the attitude that demands either a resistance to evil up-to-and-including hands-around-the-throat violence, OR complete supine surrender to that evil.
As you directed that binary comment towards me, in fairness and accuracy I will note that I did not frame any of my posts in this manner.
quote:
There are other options. As in the work of the man whose story Golden Key linked to--
Those strategies no not work in situations like the march which is what we are discussing here.
quote:
Because obviously a person of American Indian descent, married and mother to Vietnamese, goddaughter of a black family from Missippi, and stepdaughter to a Mexican American--Yeah, obviously I'm a damned racist.
I do not think you are a racist.
However none of what you mention precludes you being one.. People are irrational and inconsistent.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Lamb Chopped. For what it's worth, I'm your side of the fault line. In theory. Brenda's link cannot be dismissed. When Christians fail, as they always have except in Dr. King, the left will have to helplessly exacerbate and perpetuate the cycle of redemptive violence. Cable Street is a wonderful, inspiring, English anomaly. Weimar is the rule. History is Dr. King's long arc with good finally getting its second rate moral act together to overcome evil in vast ghastly epicycles along that arc. The last one cost us 4%. Christians have to dissolve as salt in those cycles.
One of the greatest men I ever knew, if not the greatest bar a country mile, was my grammar school chemistry teacher, a WWII conscientious objector. He defused the biggest Nazi bomb that didn't detonate on Britain.
That's the best we'll ever do as a rule. And it's not bad. There are no short cuts up the arc. We all have our part to play. Left. Right. Christian.
[ 26. August 2017, 20:31: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Bugger, BY a country mile.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Of course California has the largest number of hate groups in the US -- we have the largest number of people. And it isn't necessary to go all the way back to SoCal's Confederate sympathies in the 19th century for examples of widespread racism in California. The incredibly racist, anti-immigrant Prop 187 passed 59% - 41% in 1994, and the previously unpopular Republican governor, Pete Wilson, rode his support for the measure to re-election.
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A German historian's advice. She recommends non-confrontation.
And, as I posted in the OP, so does the Southern Poverty Law Center. Appeals to authority are not my favorite argumentative moves, but I am astonished at how easily some here have blown right by the advice and instruction of people who have made studying hate groups their very reason for being.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
"Uncompromising binaries" was my term for the attitude that demands either a resistance to evil up-to-and-including hands-around-the-throat violence, OR complete supine surrender to that evil. There are other options.
Indeed. The proposed "Turd Reich" counter-protest, for instance, in which folks in NorCal planned to strew the field where the neo-Nazi rally was originally planned for this weekend with dog shit before heading to their counter-rally in another location. Another plan I saw circulated was for locals to move their cars into all the available public parking in and around the national park so that all the people planning to carry guns to the rally would have to carry them through a jurisdiction where they are illegal (openly carrying weapons is legal in national parks ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ).
The church I work for came up with their own non-violent solution to dealing with hate. As they are known in town as an extremely gay-friendly church, they took a lot of shit from hecklers when they marched in the MLK parade in January; Trump fans apparently thought it would be cute to harass people at the MLK parade in the wake of the election. After that, parents started to question whether they wanted to have their kids march in the church's contingent at the gay pride parade in May, as every year there is a tiny contingent of people from one of the Baptist churches who hold signs and yell about gay people going to hell. So they made a huge banner that read "Protecting Our Kids from Hate" and stretched it out when they reached the hate group. They used that and singing "We Are Marching in the Light of God" to shield the children from the hate. And it yielded some good publicity for the church to boot.
quote:
Originally posted by Croesus:
I'd argue that one of the contributing factors to the re-emergence of white supremacy in the U.S. is the way people always treat it with kid gloves.
Always? Seriously? Give me a break. And you completely mis-read Lamb Chopped "uncompromising binaries" post. Intentionally? Or accidentally?
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
What I am saying is that the posibility of redemption or change does not outweigh the necessity of confrontation. Methods are arguable, but visible it must be. If staying home and praying worked, we'd not be having this discussion.
Here is a time for trying to reach people, when they are marching isn't going to be one of them.
There are lots of visible things people can do that don't involve face-to-face confrontation. Face-to-face confrontation is in fact not only dangerous, it's counter-productive.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Croesos, what the hell do you mean I'm soft-pedaling racism?
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I was specifically referring to your comment about "uncompromising binaries", which implies a willingness to compromise with racism.
This is an over-reach. You can't go from someone saying that racists might be redeemable to soft-pedaling racism. Unless you believe that anyone involved in White supremacy must be written off, imprisoned indefinetly, and that any rehabilitation represents "soft-pedalling".
Making a big deal of the "crash into" is also a bit much. We all choose inappropriate phrases from time to time, this feels like making it into an opportunity for point scoring.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
ISTM that, throughout the thread, there's a leaning towards direct, physical, in-your-face confrontation--possibly with violence. And a sense that anyone who doesn't do that, and/or doesn't agree with that, is a coward, or siding with evil, or maybe just *is* plain evil.
I don't think any of us looking for non-confrontational, peaceful approaches (NCPA) have judged the confrontational (C) posters anywhere near as harshly.
I don't think that getting in someone's face necessarily helps. Nor does getting arrested and imprisoned. I think that people sometimes put a sort of "living martyr" veneration spin on an activist's fate, both as a coping mechanism and PR, as if it's absolutely a *good* thing. Sometimes, good can be *brought out* of a horrible situation. But that doesn't mean the situation itself is good, or that other people should seek it themselves.
I saw a clip from Charlottesville, IIRC, where protestors we shouting at each other from opposite sides of a narrow street. What good does that do? And then it boiled into violence. What is accomplished by that?
Isn't there room for different approaches?
Most people's days and responsibilities are pretty much filled up. They truly may not have time and energy for action, other than *maybe* signing a petition, or doing a call/e-mail. If they got injured or arrested (or worse) at protest action, there might not be anyone else to take care of their family, pets, home, work responsibilities, etc. They might be injured in jail, while waiting for trial--or convicted and sent to prison, which is far worse. Maybe they're claustrophobic, or have a long-term terror of being trapped.
If we all did protests every time there was a need, we'd be tripping all over each other. Sometimes, in everyday, real life, you have to listen to awful people, think, choose, and even compromise. Even when you hate it. That isn't "soft-peddling" the problems. It's responsibly doing what you can, in the situation you've got, even if you can't do massive, immediate change.
Yelling nasty things at the KKK probably won't do much good--and might do much bad. They'll get to feel tough, virtuous, and persecuted. ISTM that creatively encouraging them to go away and/or leave the KKK has a better chance of a good outcome--where no one, on any side, is injured.
FWIW, YMMV, etc.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Spot on GK. The brilliant Crœsos is an atheist humanist I'm not surprised being in favour of beating fascists at their own game for some greater good no matter the cost: in evolutionary terms it's worth it. Not that the left achieved that, they went down first. Every time except Cable Street. It's down to the rest of humanity to deal with the shit storm.
80 million WWII dead.
I'm surprised at Christians - therefore at least one of my former selves - who appear to think the same way and that the Jesus, Ghandi, King way is only pathetic. Which it IS, in all ways, which is the point.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
This is an over-reach. You can't go from someone saying that racists might be redeemable to soft-pedaling racism. Unless you believe that anyone involved in White supremacy must be written off, imprisoned indefinetly, and that any rehabilitation represents "soft-pedalling".
Making a big deal of the "crash into" is also a bit much. We all choose inappropriate phrases from time to time, this feels like making it into an opportunity for point scoring.
Yes. And to notice and reword that, Charlottesville would probably have to be the only thing on LC's mind. She's got a gazillion plates spinning at any one time.
*Croesos*, these comments don't seem like you.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And, as I posted in the OP, so does the Southern Poverty Law Center. Appeals to authority are not my favorite argumentative moves, but I am astonished at how easily some here have blown right by the advice and instruction of people who have made studying hate groups their very reason for being.
I'm not sure what I think about their advice on this. I don't at the moment agree, but I wish to think on it more before outlining why.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I'm discussing Croesos's "soft-pedalling racism" comment and the responses on Host board, meanwhile please drop any further specific comments and responses until you have a Hostly view. Both Commandment 3 and Commandment 4 boundaries will be considered.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And, as I posted in the OP, so does the Southern Poverty Law Center. Appeals to authority are not my favorite argumentative moves, but I am astonished at how easily some here have blown right by the advice and instruction of people who have made studying hate groups their very reason for being.
I'm not sure what I think about their advice on this. I don't at the moment agree, but I wish to think on it more before outlining why.
Here are some tweets from an LA Times reporter (@JamesQueallyLAT) in the last two hours who is up in Berkeley right now:
quote:
Masked protesters, claiming to be Antifa, threatening to break reporters cameras if they film them. Reminder we are on public ground.
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Joey Gibson showed up and Antifa pounced. Piss bottles thrown shoving shields thrown at them.
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Gibson and someone else ran toward cops and got handcuffed. I don't know why.
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CHP just broke up another street fight [CHP = California Highway Patrol]
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The moderate counter protesters are livid with the violence. "We need to get Antifa out of here." said man who helped break up fight.
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There is a complete mob mentality here. People are randomly accusing random people of being Nazis.
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Organizers now asking to see my press pass as I try and interview someone being falsely accused of being a Nazi.
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Update: Patriot Prayer Founder Joey Gibson was NOT arrested, per CHP. Didn't say why he was handcuffed but they considered it a "rescue"
I'm not impressed by folks who are supposed to be against Nazism who go out and commit assault. I'm also not impressed with three or four people beating on someone already on the ground. What do we stand for? Someone remind me.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
antifa =/= the counter protest.
It is not a valid point against the idea of counter-protest.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Croesos's soft-pedalling racism comment.
The considered H&A view is that comment has been correctly criticised as an overreach and a misrepresentation.
However, saying someone's post is soft pedalling racism is not the same as calling them a racist, which would be a Commandment 3 violation. Croesos's comment is unjustified, but it does not constitute a personal attack under Commandment 3.
We therefore agree with RuthW and mdijon's comments. We remind Croesos of Commandments 2 and 5. Engaging brain before posting and avoiding offending easily are useful guidelines in this context.
This ruling may of course be brought up in the Styx, and there is the usual scope for a Hell call. Please drop the issue in this thread.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And, as I posted in the OP, so does the Southern Poverty Law Center. Appeals to authority are not my favorite argumentative moves, but I am astonished at how easily some here have blown right by the advice and instruction of people who have made studying hate groups their very reason for being.
I'm not sure what I think about their advice on this. I don't at the moment agree, but I wish to think on it more before outlining why.
Here are some tweets from an LA Times reporter (@JamesQueallyLAT) in the last two hours who is up in Berkeley right now:
quote:
Masked protesters, claiming to be Antifa, threatening to break reporters cameras if they film them. Reminder we are on public ground.
...
Joey Gibson showed up and Antifa pounced. Piss bottles thrown shoving shields thrown at them.
...
Gibson and someone else ran toward cops and got handcuffed. I don't know why.
...
...
CHP just broke up another street fight [CHP = California Highway Patrol]
...
...
The moderate counter protesters are livid with the violence. "We need to get Antifa out of here." said man who helped break up fight.
...
There is a complete mob mentality here. People are randomly accusing random people of being Nazis.
...
Organizers now asking to see my press pass as I try and interview someone being falsely accused of being a Nazi.
...
...
Update: Patriot Prayer Founder Joey Gibson was NOT arrested, per CHP. Didn't say why he was handcuffed but they considered it a "rescue"
I'm not impressed by folks who are supposed to be against Nazism who go out and commit assault. I'm also not impressed with three or four people beating on someone already on the ground. What do we stand for? Someone remind me.
The greater good RuthW. The greater good. This is just collateral damage in a win for the good for the ... right. As Lenin said, you must lay down, kill your compassion. Christians and other non-violent appeasers are just cowardly weak bourgeois parasites - like the press - who refuse to get their hands dirty in mercilessly extirpating the wrongly violent from our midst. This is our sacred eugenic duty.
[ 28. August 2017, 07:35: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
antifa =/= the counter protest.
It is not a valid point against the idea of counter-protest.
At some point I grow embarrassed to be seen with the counter-protesters if they are throwing bottles of piss, accusing random people of being Nazis and instigating violence.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What?! You would deny Christ in action!
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Love wins
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
If he was throwing bottles of piss then yes.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
![[Smile]](smile.gif) could be worse. Holy shit!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
You're either shitting me or taking the piss.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Very amusing - for a little while. But back on thread topics please.
B62, Purg Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
antifa =/= the counter protest.
It is not a valid point against the idea of counter-protest.
At some point I grow embarrassed to be seen with the counter-protesters if they are throwing bottles of piss, accusing random people of being Nazis and instigating violence.
It is always the problem of the left to be more chaotic than the right, Yes, these people are an embarrassment and a distraction. They are fodder for the media to pretend balance and for the right to hide the hate.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What?! You would deny Christ in action!
When I see Jesus walk in protest, I will not deny his actions. However, as he has declined personal appearance for quite sometime, we are left with his representatives. Some of which were on the Nazi side of the lines.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is always the problem of the left to be more chaotic than the right, Yes, these people are an embarrassment and a distraction. They are fodder for the media to pretend balance and for the right to hide the hate.
The reports RuthW links to are not pretending balance, they're just reporting. Not sure the left is more chaotic - antifa seem substantially better organized than the Oval Office at the moment - but even if that's true and they are distracting fodder... they're still there.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is always the problem of the left to be more chaotic than the right, Yes, these people are an embarrassment and a distraction. They are fodder for the media to pretend balance and for the right to hide the hate.
The reports RuthW links to are not pretending balance, they're just reporting. Not sure the left is more chaotic - antifa seem substantially better organized than the Oval Office at the moment - but even if that's true and they are distracting fodder... they're still there.
Chaotic is the sense that the left is a broad umbrella covering multiple POV and the right tends to present a more unified front.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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