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Source: (consider it) Thread: Nazis are coming to town - what do you do?
Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There's been a lot of moral comparison between the "alt-right" and "alt-left". Can I just point out that in the UK you're unlikely to be called "alt-right" unless you actually kill an MP or drive a van into a group of people outside a mosque. But you get called "alt-left" if you believe in universal healthcare and free education.

There is one crumb of comfort, though. The 'alt-right' label was invented to make right-wing extremism sound edgy and provocative instead of just jerkish. The fact that the alt- prefix is already being used as a pejorative shows that it failed ...

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The simple fact is that nobody has actually suggested anything which is going to stop neo-Nazis from attacking people if the police refuse to get in the way.

Why shouldn't a human shield be a means of stopping Nazis from attacking other people? Why wouldn't people getting in the way of Nazis impede their progress? Why does it need someone to take up arms, or to assault them?

And, is it clear the police are refusing to get in the way? They probably aren't going to arrest people doing something they have a legal right to do - to march, even to openly carry guns. But, they appear to have taken the job of arresting someone who commits murder using their car seriously. And, have arrested others on various assault charges (including some anti-fascist protesters - who shouldn't IMO be above the law). Not what we may have wanted, as there were clearly many more people committing assault than have been arrested, and the police were not present at every point of conflict. But, if non-violent protesters start getting shot then do you not expect the pressure to rise on the police to be seen to be more pro-active. Those militias carried their guns legally, because of bizarre laws that allow them to own and openly carry guns. AIUI, the right to openly carry doesn't mean it's not a crime to fire them in urban areas, and certainly shooting people not threatening you (ie: no possible self-defense claim) would be a crime that the police would have to act on.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Crœsos
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Historian Kevin Kruse tweets some historical examples of American politicians condemning "the extremists on both sides" of the Civil Rights Movement. In other words, equal condemnation for the KKK and the NAACP. Just so we're clear on the kind of 'courage' involved in standing up to "both sides" in this context.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Yes. I'm willing to keep putting the effort in.

Thank you.

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Love wins

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:


There. Is. No. Moral. Equivalence.

Agreed. I don't think a preference for non-violent opposition to neo-Nazi movements implies a moral equivalence between neo-Nazi movements and anti-fascist movements.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, is it clear the police are refusing to get in the way?

Yes. Yes, it is.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Ian Climacus

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What's behind that? I think police should be out there to keep the peace, but that article doesn't give any indication the journalist tried to contact the police to find out why they didn't keep the promise.

Is it lack of resources?
Is there entrenched police racism?
Was some operation going on / did some horrific event happen and thus resources were not available?

I do not deny police could do better, but I know they only work with what they've got. And I've really only [second-hand] experience of our police force, not yours.

[ 19. August 2017, 02:27: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Eutychus
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My respect for Brian McLaren just went back up a notch.

Here is his account of his participation in the day; I'd like to think I'd have acted along the same lines.

It's well worth a read for his account of who was there, what they did and didn't do (including, from his perspective, the police).

I think one of his most insightful comments is that young people are being radicalised under the noses of Americans who believe only muslims are radicalised.

It seems to me that investigating parallels with other forms of contemporary violent extremism on the part of minorities could be more useful when it comes to understanding the dynamics of the thing than focusing solely on historic examples of state-sponsored Nazism.

(For my part, and again agreeing with CK's stance on EDL members, I firmly believe that the struggle to combat radicalisation cannot be won in the long term through violence).

[ 19. August 2017, 08:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Ian Climacus

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Thank you for that.

Possibly off-topic but I am having trouble reconciling the tragic deals made by 4th Century Bishops with Emperor Constantine with white (Christian) supremacy. What am I missing?

Apart from that hiccough while I read I found it a good, if worrying (cf the radicalisation Eutychus mentioned), piece. I'm not in the "Christian scene" and take it McLaren is a well-known person.

He wrote towards the end Such a better world is possible, but only if we set our hearts on realizing the possibility; sadly, I'm not as optimistic. I fear hate will always be part of the human condition.

[ 19. August 2017, 08:11: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I'm not in the "Christian scene" and take it McLaren is a well-known person.

Briefly mentioned in Purg not long ago, here and here.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Golden Key
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Curiosity killed ...--

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I have some advantages in this particular discussion as I look and sound white British but have an *interesting* heritage, which I have been known to disclose part way through the conversation. The best response yet was: "But, but, but ... it's different for you."

I challenge these views all the time, can't count the number of times I've challenged racism and homophobia.

You might appreciate this story, then:

Michael Landon, "Little Joe" on the old "Bonanza" TV western (extremely popular), told of visiting a Southern town, and being given the royal tour by the sheriff and his deputy.

So they were driving around the outskirts of the town, and the officers were pointing out various features. "...and over there's where we have the Klan meeting..."

From the back seat, Michael said "You know I'm Jewish?"

Jaws dropped in the front seat.

Michael went on. "And so's Lorne Green." ("Ben Cartwright" on "Bonanza".)

The sheriff and the deputy fell all over themselves, back-pedaling. "Oh, no, we're not in the Klan, we don't have anything to do with them..."

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, is it clear the police are refusing to get in the way?

Yes. Yes, it is.
Which gives people another course of action (in retrospect) - asking the questions of why an evidently vulnerable location (both as a synagogue, and on the route of the march) was not covered by a police guard, and how to ensure such vulnerable locations are given police protection in future, because sooner or later they're not going to be lucky enough to avoid damage and harm to members. Of course, there will always be gaps in police cover - if the Nazi march goes off route to locations that were expected to be a safe distance from the marchers, or if small groups of Nazis go somewhere else - but, somewhere like a synagogue, black church or community centre etc is on the planned route of a march then the police should be there. In the UK, it would be normal for the police to walk beside the marchers, between marchers and locations/people they might attack.

But, this also provides another option for counter protesters. If the Nazis are coming to your town, identify the vulnerable people who might be affected. Press for police protection. And, offer yourselves as human shields. A hundred people linked arm in arm infront of the synagogue would be a very visible sign that the community is not going to allow the Nazis to persecute jews. More people out back to make sure everyone goes home in a large group, or with a small fleet of minibuses, would be a practical assistance.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
My respect for Brian McLaren just went back up a notch.

Here is his account of his participation in the day; I'd like to think I'd have acted along the same lines.


That's an excellent expression of core Christian values. An illuminating eye-witness account. The last two paragraphs spell out proper theological and practical responses. I hope they get taken up.

[ 19. August 2017, 09:22: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which gives people another course of action (in retrospect) - asking the questions of why an evidently vulnerable location (both as a synagogue, and on the route of the march) was not covered by a police guard, and how to ensure such vulnerable locations are given police protection in future, because sooner or later they're not going to be lucky enough to avoid damage and harm to members. Of course, there will always be gaps in police cover - if the Nazi march goes off route to locations that were expected to be a safe distance from the marchers, or if small groups of Nazis go somewhere else - but, somewhere like a synagogue, black church or community centre etc is on the planned route of a march then the police should be there. In the UK, it would be normal for the police to walk beside the marchers, between marchers and locations/people they might attack.

I've been to neo-Nazi marches and other protests that erupt into violence in the UK. I think it is very unlikely the British police would do anything other than get in the way between groups to prevent them attacking each other.

But that's the problem here: the Nazis came tooled up with sub-machine guns and other weapons. I'd hope that wouldn't happen in the UK.

quote:
But, this also provides another option for counter protesters. If the Nazis are coming to your town, identify the vulnerable people who might be affected. Press for police protection. And, offer yourselves as human shields. A hundred people linked arm in arm infront of the synagogue would be a very visible sign that the community is not going to allow the Nazis to persecute jews. More people out back to make sure everyone goes home in a large group, or with a small fleet of minibuses, would be a practical assistance.
This is quite naive. If the Nazis could be put off by weight of numbers it might have some effect. But the evidence is that they don't give a shit about human life as I said before.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
This is quite naive. If the Nazis could be put off by weight of numbers it might have some effect. But the evidence is that they don't give a shit about human life as I said before.

And historically at least there have been cases where actual confrontation appears to have worked.
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Golden Key
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Re other things that can be done:

San Francisco is supposed to have one of these "prayer rallies", as in Charlottesville, on Aug. 26th (KTVU news).

At least two of my Congress critters (Rep. Nancy Pelosi and Sen. Dianne Feinstein) are fighting it, as are local officials. The proposed place is Crissy Field, part of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area (GGNRA), which is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service (NPS), which is federal. The permit for use has been approved, but not issued. The superintendent of the GGNRA is taking comments. I looked all this up to find some way that I could comment, and that linked article has an e-mail address. So I'll write this weekend.

Interestingly, the organizer of the rally says that it's not a supremacist gathering, and listed the diversity of the speakers. Will be interesting to see how that pans out.

There are...other tactics in the works (Raw Story). [Big Grin] I just hope they clean up after themselves! [Biased]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Barnabas62
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@ chris stiles

Containing the following quotation.

quote:
Within the Jewish community, there is cautious approval that, while its tactics are no longer valid, the 43 Group’s memory is being resurrected.
Plus this

quote:
(Mr Beckman) added: “We wanted revenge - the Holocaust was in our minds. We decided we had to out-fascist the fascists.”


[ 19. August 2017, 10:33: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've been to neo-Nazi marches and other protests that erupt into violence in the UK. I think it is very unlikely the British police would do anything other than get in the way between groups to prevent them attacking each other.

Which is a perfectly acceptable thing for the police to do. If the Nazis manage to keep inside the law, with all the appropriate permissions to march etc, then the police have no role beyond maintaining the peace. Though, if things get violent then the resources of more or less marshalling a march are going to be inadequate, and deploying police in riot gear prior to violence breaking out would be seen as provocative. It's a difficult line for the police to walk.

quote:
But that's the problem here: the Nazis came tooled up with sub-machine guns and other weapons. I'd hope that wouldn't happen in the UK.
Though, of course, in the UK possession of firearms would be an offence in itself.

quote:
If the Nazis could be put off by weight of numbers it might have some effect. But the evidence is that they don't give a shit about human life as I said before.
Ultimately, it's only weight of numbers that can have an effect on Nazism. The weight of public opinion that this evil is evil, and the demonstration of that through a range of protest actions - everything from social media comments through political campaigns to direct action.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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simontoad
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My answer to the original post would be to take the Southern Policy Law Centre's advice and attend another rally organised to celebrate love and diversity elsewhere.

My understanding is that fascists in the Wiemar Republic rallied in part to provoke a violent reaction. They used the resultant disorder to add to their case that law and order was breaking down in Germany and that their solution was what the country needed.

Here in Australia we have racists who call for an end to Muslim immigration, yadda yadda yadda. There have been similar clashes in my city between them and the feistier members of the diversity club, resulting in injuries but not death. Nobody has hit anyone with a car at one of these gatherings, although a bloke called Gargazoulis mowed down a large number of people in the Bourke St Mall earlier this year. He's just a criminal, perhaps mad. He might have some prison racism, but not known to be anti-Muslim.

I noticed a reference to Jewish people hiring guards to protect their Synagogue. This is not unusual at all in Melbourne, where a substantial number of Jews live. Synagogues here look rather like fortresses, with big fences, iron grills and big sliding gates. I would be very surprised indeed if they were not all guarded 24/7, as I believe the one I have visited a few times is. I'm actually raising my eyebrows right now at the thought that any Synagogue anywhere in the USA might not have similar protection. People attack Jewish symbols all the time. It used to be that most people who did this sort of thing were experiencing an episode of madness, but I don't think that's been the case for maybe 30 years. I am totally light on concrete data, and merely expressing my own idle estimation. Nothing new there.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
... People attack Jewish symbols all the time. It used to be that most people who did this sort of thing were experiencing an episode of madness, but I don't think that's been the case for maybe 30 years. ....

That such a thing happens more frequently does not mean that it is not an episode of madness. It means that madness is increasing alarmingly, and that bad people are choosing to take pride in their hatreds.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Martin60
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Alan, I really appreciate your analyses.

Mr cheesy. I acknowledge the passion and power of what you say. I agree with you and Doc Tor and Crœsos that if Christians do nothing to effectively interpose, the four step escalation of lawless violent reaction to fascist violence ensuing from their lawful rights being thwarted has a moral imperative to it. One I feel I would have to conflictedly endorse. I would hope that in that situation the state would use overwhelming force on all.

I live in the heart of the most plural city in Britain and if fascists came down my street it would mean that the state had failed. I would do ANYTHING to defend my neighbours and me and mine. Anything. I hope. Not just flee. So I CANNOT disagree with you in kind, only in degree. I cannot see how it is appropriate to punch a fascist second let alone first. Yet. I cannot see how I should go in to town prepared to do violence as a Christian due to the failure of a mass Christian response next time the EDL march. Because the sword will not be borne in vain.

If they came with machine guns then that is even more post-apocalyptic. These things are NOT going to happen in the UK or W. Europe, even E. Europe. It would take much more than Paris, Brussels, Nice, Berlin, Stockholm, London, Barcelona. It would need a one hundred year event economic collapse. The consequences would be at least as bad as Partition. If we were lucky we'd end up with Indian style Communalism. Rather than WW2 ghettos and a final solution. And there'd be no arsenal of democracy to save us.

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Love wins

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Enoch
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I sense Martin that's part of the problem for us when we comment from over here on public events in the USA, or on who should or shouldn't have done what. People who demonstrate here cannot turn up armed.

Incidentally, have shipmates seen Arnie on this? Remember, this man isn't just a film star. He's a former governor of California under the Republican label.

And have shipmates heard of
this lovely story from Franconia in 2014, how Nazi's were tricked into raising money for their opponents? And this is in a country which really knows what the issues are, where they are seared into everyone's consciousness.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:


I live in the heart of the most plural city in Britain and if fascists came down my street it would mean that the state had failed. I would do ANYTHING to defend my neighbours and me and mine.

But to be honest, it would be more a case of your neighbours defending you, wouldn't it?!

If an army of tooled-up fascists came over on a day trip to cause serious havoc in the heart of my city, they'd get their behinds kicked in by the Asian lads. That's what I imagine.

A bunch of ageing Christians wouldn't be of much use on the front line, but they could help by supplying food, water, first aid, encouragement, etc.

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Brenda Clough
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I went to my local farm market today, where I bought a lawn sign. It says "Hate Has No Place Here." Then I went on to buy tomatoes and apples. A woman stopped me and asked where she could buy a sign like mine.

No, signs are not as effective. If they come to town with assault rifles, we are in trouble. But signs and similar insignia create an atmosphere, a climate. That's why when someone hangs out a swastika flag people are upset.

So, let your peace flag fly. You don't have to be in the US, or have a gun carry permit, or be physically able to die on the barricades. You could announce that hate has no place, at your place.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:


I live in the heart of the most plural city in Britain and if fascists came down my street it would mean that the state had failed. I would do ANYTHING to defend my neighbours and me and mine.

But to be honest, it would be more a case of your neighbours defending you, wouldn't it?!

If an army of tooled-up fascists came over on a day trip to cause serious havoc in the heart of my city, they'd get their behinds kicked in by the Asian lads. That's what I imagine.

A bunch of ageing Christians wouldn't be of much use on the front line, but they could help by supplying food, water, first aid, encouragement, etc.

That rather depends on what sort of action you're going to take. A human barrier of citizens peacefully, non-violently blocking access to a neighbourhood is as effective with 20 year olds as 80 year olds. It doesn't take youth or physical strength to stand arm in arm with dozens of neighbours.

I admit that if you intend to pick a fight, then fit and young men would be an advantage. But, then again open warfare on the streets benefits no one except the nazis.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Martin60
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Yeah, there aren't enough Christians to go round. I can manage relatively static defence to a strong degree.

And Enoch, aye, all told I doubt C'ville could have been handled better without overwhelming policing or the National Guard.

[ 19. August 2017, 14:25: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
A human barrier of citizens peacefully, non-violently blocking access to a neighbourhood is as effective with 20 year olds as 80 year olds. It doesn't take youth or physical strength to stand arm in arm with dozens of neighbours.

I admit that if you intend to pick a fight, then fit and young men would be an advantage. But, then again open warfare on the streets benefits no one except the nazis.

A fight would only benefit the Nazis if they had numbers and strength on their side. I can't really imagine that in the British context, although maybe some would try.

The problem here is that in the multicultural areas where the Nazis would have the most to complain about they would face serious physical opposition. In less multicultural areas they'd face less physical opposition, but why would they go somewhere like that? Not enough excitement, not newsworthy enough. Not enough objects of their loathing.

Moreover, Nazism is a European movement, so they could hardly substitute communities of Poles, Lithuanians, Slovaks, etc. for the people they really hate. Indeed, there are fascists in Eastern Europe, so they'd do better to make common cause with them, as some of them have done.

As for what Christians could do, yes, they could engage in non-violent protests, if the Nazi presence was also non-violent.

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Trust me, British neo-Nazis have absolutely no trouble deciding that various other white communities are sub-human too.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Press for police protection. And, offer yourselves as human shields. A hundred people linked arm in arm infront of the synagogue would be a very visible sign that the community is not going to allow the Nazis to persecute jews.

I've been mulling this over and I don't think this is quite as straight-forward as you describe.

After all - in the most extreme of cases, are real-fascists going to actually care? Maybe, maybe not. There are situations where those bent on harming a community have been turned back by people willing to say 'no', equally there have been plenty of situations where they haven't (these tend to get less publicity).

The value of the human shield willing to put themselves in harms way - as the value of occurrences like the Battle of Oxford and the Little Rock Nine, depend powerfully on a constituency outside the immediate event who are able to feel outrage and/or shame.

[Just a reminder here that after Trump made his 'both sides' speech, his approval ratings among Republicans actually rose - which means that there is a significant number of them who believe his rhetoric].

To a certain extent you could say the same of Gandhi's actions - it depended in large part on his ability to shame the British public over the acts of their government. Where the colonial powers were determined to be more secretive, or where the population themselves are more immune to outrage - non violent movements seem to be less successful.

Finally, the non-violent movements of the past often had more-violent counterparts. Was the US governments willingness to deal with the Civil Rights movement increased by the presence of groups like the Black Panthers?

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Brenda Clough
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Or do it this way: Clowns confront the KKK in Nashville. I particularly admire the response to the chants of 'White Power.'

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
A bunch of ageing Christians wouldn't be of much use on the front line, but they could help by supplying food, water, first aid, encouragement, etc.

This ageing Christian's got a few more picket- and barricade-days left in him, I assure you!

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Trust me, British neo-Nazis have absolutely no trouble deciding that various other white communities are sub-human too.

Well, that simplifies things. The more people they hate, the more enemies they'll have. Where will they be able to march and not get on most folks' nerves?


quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
A bunch of ageing Christians wouldn't be of much use on the front line, but they could help by supplying food, water, first aid, encouragement, etc.

This ageing Christian's got a few more picket- and barricade-days left in him, I assure you!
[Biased]
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mr cheesy
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I've been thinking about this - and suggest that those who are disagreeing with me haven't actually watched the videos from last weekend.

The idea that any number of bodies would protect a building is ridiculous.

Watch the VICE vid and then see if you think your non-violence would work. I did, and despite decades of belief in non-violence, decided that it wouldn't.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The idea that any number of bodies would protect a building is ridiculous.

Watch the VICE vid and then see if you think your non-violence would work. I did, and despite decades of belief in non-violence, decided that it wouldn't.

But, what would "work"? As you've reportedly pointed out, some bizarre (IMO) laws allowed the Nazi mob to carry lethal weapons. If they wanted to storm a synagogue or something then a crowd throwing stones or tear gas would have been no less effective at stopping that than the same crowd standing arm in arm.

As also noted, Trump got away with blaming both sides for the violence, and his support from parts of society increased. Would he have got away with that if dozens of unarmed, non-violent ordinary US citizens had been gunned down? Non-violence or violence would make no difference to protecting an individual building. Mass murder of ordinary people would result in a significant change in public attitudes towards the Nazis. We've already seen a move from many prominent Republicans to condemn the far right for their actions, how much more if they had murdered more than one person? It might even force Trump into taking a side, rather than sit on the fence to avoid alienating electoral support on one side (and, not caring about the other side who wouldn't support him anyway). It could even result in Congress having a sensible discussion about guns (though, I wouldn't hold me breath).

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, what would "work"? As you've reportedly pointed out, some bizarre (IMO) laws allowed the Nazi mob to carry lethal weapons. If they wanted to storm a synagogue or something then a crowd throwing stones or tear gas would have been no less effective at stopping that than the same crowd standing arm in arm.

Would you stand in front of a synogogue if you had a 100% chance of being killed?

If the building was empty and there was no way to stop the neo-Nazis burning it down, I'm afraid I don't see any value in anyone laying down their life to protect it.

If there were people in it, I think one might have to ask serious questions about whether laying down one's life would actually stop the neo-Nazis.

And if one concluded that it wouldn't, then one would be left thinking that perhaps engaging the Nazis in fisticuffs and minor fights might distract them long enough to stop them from burning the building down and having heavily armed militias might make them think twice about gunning anyone down.

Which, you might notice, has been the position I've been arguing.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, what would "work"?

To answer this question I think requires answering a couple of others first:

- what is the immediate objective of the group you are opposing?
- what is your immediate objective in response?

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, what would "work"? As you've reportedly pointed out, some bizarre (IMO) laws allowed the Nazi mob to carry lethal weapons. If they wanted to storm a synagogue or something then a crowd throwing stones or tear gas would have been no less effective at stopping that than the same crowd standing arm in arm.

Would you stand in front of a synogogue if you had a 100% chance of being killed?
Though, there's not 100% chance of anything is there? The Nazis may intend to attack the synagogue, but may change their mind seeing the people there protecting it. They may be armed, but decide to try and just force themselves through by pushing the protesters aside, without using their guns. Or, they may decide to start shooting.

Until, if, they start shooting you don't know which way things are going to go. Should we just let them walk in on the off-chance that otherwise there would be violence? Or, should we form a barricade in the hope that that would be enough to deter them? And, since there's a good chance that if faced with non-violent protests even Nazis won't resort to excessive violence, does it help if people respond with violence thus upping the ante?

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, what would "work"?

To answer this question I think requires answering a couple of others first:

- what is the immediate objective of the group you are opposing?
- what is your immediate objective in response?

There are also long-term objectives. The long term objectives can succeed even if there are some immediate failures.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Eutychus
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In fact the short-term actions should be informed by one's long-term objectives.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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And, will be specific to particular situations (including the objectives, potentially unknown, of the Nazis). Which is why I didn't answer that question.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Stejjie
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# 13941

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(Can't post a whole lot right now as I'm doing this while I'm on my tablet while making our tea, but...)

The last few posts illustrate the point one of the articles I linked to yesterday was making: that nonviolence isn't just refusing to use force in a flash point incident, but it's thinking through, working out and training people in how to plan for and deal with threats and the possibility of violence. It's saying, "if the nazis turn up with guns and seem prepared to use them, what are we going to do, how are we going to respond to that?".

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Stejjie
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I should say I'm not having a dig at Alan and Eutychus btw; just that I think what they're discussing is what needs to happen before you're in that position.

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
I should say I'm not having a dig at Alan and Eutychus btw; just that I think what they're discussing is what needs to happen before you're in that position.

Right, exactly. If possible you conduct various forms of non-violence to avoid getting to that situation in the first place.

But if you are in it, I'm saying that there is almost zero value in sacrificing your life at the feet of a neo-Nazi. It doesn't protect anyone or anything.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Eutychus
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# 3081

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Your objective is protection, then?

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If possible you conduct various forms of non-violence to avoid getting to that situation in the first place.

But if you are in it, I'm saying that there is almost zero value in sacrificing your life at the feet of a neo-Nazi. It doesn't protect anyone or anything.

Of course, we all want to avoid escalation such that no-one is at danger of being attacked - by Nazis or anti-Nazi protesters. The difference in our approach seems to be that we don't agree on the point at which non-violence ceases to be effective.

My points have been that:

a) you won't know the point at which you'll be sacrificing your life until you've reached the point where you're options (if you have any) are either stand your ground or run. You can't join a peaceful protest and decide that at the point armed Nazis appear and start shooting that it's time to pop home to get a gun yourself.

b) even if you sacrifice your life in non-violent protest that isn't a waste. It may protect whatever the Nazis target - spending time to kill you might give others time to flee, or time for the cops to realise that they can't stand aside while innocent people are shot. Even if it doesn't, there's always the power of martyrs.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of course, we all want to avoid escalation such that no-one is at danger of being attacked - by Nazis or anti-Nazi protesters. The difference in our approach seems to be that we don't agree on the point at which non-violence ceases to be effective.

We can ensure that no one is in danger of being attacked by anti-Nazi protesters by ensuring there are no Nazis on the streets.

We can ensure that no one is at danger of being attacked by Nazis is if there are no Jewish, black, Roma, Asian, Arabic, or gay people - or people who might be mistaken for them - on the streets. No, actually, we can't be sure of that at all, because straight white people are also in danger of being attacked by Nazis too.

Your naivete is astounding. Anti-Nazi protesters are there for one thing only. To protest against Nazis. They are assuredly not the problem.

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Ricardus
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I think one needs to decide whether one believes in non-violence as a matter of principle -- i.e., that violence is what the Catholics call an intrinsic moral evil -- or merely of strategy, i.e. that in the long run non-violent means will achieve more effectively whatever it is you want to achieve.

In the former case, it isn't relevant if someone can show that on a particular occasion violence would be more effective than non-violence. One does not do evil that good may result.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of course, we all want to avoid escalation such that no-one is at danger of being attacked - by Nazis or anti-Nazi protesters. The difference in our approach seems to be that we don't agree on the point at which non-violence ceases to be effective.

We can ensure that no one is in danger of being attacked by anti-Nazi protesters by ensuring there are no Nazis on the streets.
Indeed, but we don't achieve that by reaching for guns and shooting them. No matter what the circumstances. I don't think we would do that by arresting them either, or pulling down statues - though both would probably help.

When we are engaged against an ideology then we win by winning hearts and minds, by convincing people that Nazism is evil. If we're to counter the Nazi belief in violence as a strategy for achieving their aims then we're not going to do that by using violence - preferably at all, but as a last resort if needed.

quote:
Anti-Nazi protesters are there for one thing only. To protest against Nazis. They are assuredly not the problem.
Yes, protest against Nazis. That is something we agree on. It's the nature of the protests that is under question. And, if the anti-Nazi protesters resort to the same violent tactics as the Nazis then they become part of the problem. Especially in the context of the earlier discussion about armed Nazis - if the anti-Nazi protesters arm themselves and there's a shoot out then innocent people will be hurt.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Doc Tor
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# 9748

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Alan - I notice you completely ignored my second paragraph.

Or perhaps you think the mere presence of Jewish or Asian or gay people on the street is a mighty provocation to the Nazis, and we shouldn't allow that, lest violence breaks out.

We simply go back to the point that MLK was making. You are more interested in false peace than real justice. You make the streets safer for Nazis, and less safe for everyone else, just to avoid unseemly violence. When, essentially, violence is there already, just not directed at you.

No. Just no.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
We can ensure that no one is in danger of being attacked by anti-Nazi protesters by ensuring there are no Nazis on the streets.

Who is the "we" here?

And how do you propose going about it?

If it's through violence, that sounds like vigilantism to me. I really struggle to see the difference with
quote:
"At some point we will have enough power that we can clear them from the streets for ever"
as one nationalist protester in Charlottesville put it to Vice.

But then you go on to say

quote:
Anti-Nazi protesters are there for one thing only. To protest against Nazis.
Wait, so is your objective protest, protection, or removing all Nazis from the streets?

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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