homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Nazis are coming to town - what do you do? (Page 8)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  5  6  7  8  9  10  11 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Nazis are coming to town - what do you do?
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm sorry?

I don't know how to respond to you, Martin.

Either say something which it is actually possible to respond to or stfu.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Sounds like masochism to me.

They said that about Gandhi too.
So are you generalizing from Gandhi, towards some ethical stance against all violence? It's a tricky position, I would think.

--------------------
no path

Posts: 9519 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'M SORRY?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16593 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I repeat: the points I've made absolutely are relevant and absolutely do apply when faced with Nazis as at Charlottesville.

If you think it doesn't, kindly explain why not.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
So are you generalizing from Gandhi, towards some ethical stance against all violence? It's a tricky position, I would think.

Whilst it is true that Gandhi was assassinated, he also was protected from a large amount of inter-community violence in the period because the British imprisoned him for years.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Nobody here disagrees with him that I can see: it doesn't apply.

How does it not apply?

Really, wtf are you talking about? Did you not see the pictures, the videos, read the eyewitness accounts?

Is there any real doubt that the Charlottesville Nazis came with weapons and the intention to kill people?

I was trying to post that I thought there was a real doubt, yes when lots of people crossposted.

quote:
stfu

[Roll Eyes]

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I wonder how German Christians reacted in the war? I suppose a lot kept quiet, some collaborated, some resisted. I wonder if there were debates about it, perhaps they would not be allowed.

--------------------
no path

Posts: 9519 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[Roll Eyes]

I tried to engage with Martin twice and both times he gave two word replies.

I'm sorry, that's not a discussion.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am willing to believe that there might conceivably be some reason why holding off a Nazi intent on murdering someone with 2x4 is not relevant to a discussion about Nazis at Charlottesville.

I don't believe it, based on the videos, reports and eyewitness accounts.

If anyone thinks it is different, give some reasons. If you can't give reasons or some kind of explanation of your thoughts, don't post. Surely that's quite a simple request.

[ 20. August 2017, 15:33: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[Roll Eyes]

I tried to engage with Martin twice and both times he gave two word replies.

I'm sorry, that's not a discussion.

The fact that it's not a discussion does not entitle you to tell him to stfu. That doesn't help at all.

I honestly don't think the organisers of the protest in C'ville had the intent to kill people. I think they intended to provoke and intimidate. Of course, if anybody responded with violence they certainly wouldn't mind killing them in retaliation, but I really don't think that was the aim.

I've been arguing for a while now about considering objectives, including those of the other side, if one wishes to win, but that question has been ignored. You've also ignored my invitation to you to clarify your own objectives; I'm still not clear what they are. Are they to protect in defence, pre-emptive violence to protect, or getting rid of Nazis off the streets by all means, or what?

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder how German Christians reacted in the war? I suppose a lot kept quiet, some collaborated, some resisted. I wonder if there were debates about it, perhaps they would not be allowed.

For the third time on this thread, I give you Dietrich Boenhoffer.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I was trying to post that I thought there was a real doubt, yes when lots of people crossposted.

On this: I don't think you can have seen the videos where the Nazis talk about killing people, the weapons they were wearing, the eyewitness reports from people who were in fear of their lives.

If you had seen all of those things, then I simply cannot understand how you can post this.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:


I honestly don't think the organisers of the protest in C'ville had the intent to kill people. I think they intended to provoke and intimidate. Of course, if anybody responded with violence they certainly wouldn't mind killing them in retaliation, but I really don't think that was the aim.

I'm going to sit over here in the corner until you've watched the VICE video - because there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they came with the intention of killing people.

quote:
I've been arguing for a while now about considering objectives, including those of the other side, if one wishes to win, but that question has been ignored. You've also ignored my invitation to you to clarify your own objectives; I'm still not clear what they are. Are they to protect in defence, pre-emptive violence to protect, or getting rid of Nazis off the streets by all means, or what?
I think I've been very clear that the first priority is the protection of the innocent: which means those not carrying weapons, those not causing any kind of threat, those going about their business.

And if the police are not willing to give that protection then it is the responsibility of everyone else to at least try to.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
So are you generalizing from Gandhi, towards some ethical stance against all violence? It's a tricky position, I would think.

Not really. As I said before I'm not against all violence in theory or in practice.

I'm just observing that the allegation of masochism was also made against Gandhi. One could say his tactic worked, although as Cheesy has said there was more to independence in India then blissfully pure non-violence, and as I said the revolt of the Indian Navy was a big factor in the British decision as well.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I was trying to post that I thought there was a real doubt, yes when lots of people crossposted.

On this: I don't think you can have seen the videos where the Nazis talk about killing people, the weapons they were wearing, the eyewitness reports from people who were in fear of their lives.

If you had seen all of those things, then I simply cannot understand how you can post this.

That thin line between talking about doing something and actually doing it is what keeps society as a whole, let alone demos like that one, from being a lot more bloody than they were. I think that if there had been a general intent to kill there would have been many more fatalities than there were.

Again, do you really think the protest was organised with the intent of widespread killing? How would that have advanced the organisers' cause?

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
For the third time on this thread, I give you Dietrich Boenhoffer.

I'm not sure how relevant this is - given that there is some doubt about whether he was really involved in the plot. He obviously wouldn't have been the first person to have been falsely accused by Hitler and the Nazi powers that be.

A better example would be the White Rose resistance movement.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I honestly don't think the organisers of the protest in C'ville had the intent to kill people.

Why do you think that?

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That thin line between talking about doing something and actually doing it is what keeps society as a whole, let alone demos like that one, from being a lot more bloody than they were. I think that if there had been a general intent to kill there would have been many more fatalities than there were.

Again, do you really think the protest was organised with the intent of widespread killing? How would that have advanced the organisers' cause?

Oh my goodness.

They are friggin Nazis. Killing is part of what they do - the whole point is that they want a white state and they're prepared to use violence to ferment a race war to get what they want.

I don't understand what is so controversial about the idea that Nazis coming to an event talking about killing people whilst carrying sub machine-guns were actually intending to kill people to achieve their objectives.

Someone help me. What am I not seeing?

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I honestly don't think the organisers of the protest in C'ville had the intent to kill people.

Why do you think that?
Because I think what they were trying to do at that protest was to legitimize their movement, making the most of a president who could be relied upon not to denounce them. If there had been more fatalities inflicted by their side that would have been a lot harder to do.

[ 20. August 2017, 15:49: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
From the LA Times:

“Heather Heyer was a fat, disgusting Communist,” stated the tweet on an account belonging to Jason Kessler. “Communists have killed 94 million. Looks like it was payback time.”

From the NY Times:

For weeks, we had read reports from white supremacist groups that they were coming here by the hundreds or thousands to start a fight. They promised to come armed. The racist Daily Stormer website has been calling 2017 the “Summer of Hate,” and Charlottesville would be ground zero.

From the ACLU reported by PBS:

The ACLU still officially condemns the hate speech of white supremacists, Romero told the LA Times, but “at the same time, we believe that even odious hate speech, with which we vehemently disagree, garners the protection of the 1st Amendment when expressed non-violently.”

ACLU spokeswoman Stacy Sullivan told Reuters that the announced policy shift doesn’t change the group’s position on civil liberties; it was prompted more by a concern over firearms, she said.

“We’ve had people with odious views, all manner of bigots. But not people who want to carry weapons and are intent on committing violence,” she said.

From Snopes(!):

John Sepulvado, a reporter who has been covering far-right groups for Bay Area public radio station KQED, told us the violence at recent alt-right demonstrations has been used to recruit, and when “antifa” shows up to fight them it can play into their game plan. “They’re turning the traditional desire for objectivity by the media on its head,” he told us.

--

Violence is the objective, it is the idea, it is the gameplan.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm with Mr C on this. The defining feature of fascists (clue's in the name) and neo-Nazi's is that violence is part of what passes for political discourse.

This is not, of course, unique to the right - radical leftist revolutionary theory has violence mbeddd in it too - but this is the terrifying thing about fascists: it's not about arguments, it's about force. And they don't just reserve rhe right to use that force to protect themslves, it is an inherent part of how they approach any opposition. All tjose people who dmanded that the ANC renounce violence in the 80s were (often wlfully) disngaged fom the inherent violence needed o maintain an Apartheid state above and beyond "normal" policing.
V
Opposing fascists does, I think, come with the very real risk that someone's going to get beaten up, because they don't believe in the rule of law. Facing up to them is an exceptionally brave thing to do, because we know how all fascist/Nazi regimes nd up. That's why I really get Doc Tor's position - I may be a pacifist (or is thst naive, physically useless coward? Never really worked that one out), I really get why if you beling to a group which someone had a good crack at wiping out, I'd want to carry a stick too.

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6916 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The nuttier wing of the white supremacist movement has always been about 'igniting a race war.' Dylan Root, for instance, was hoping to do that.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5356 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
I may be a pacifist (or is thst naive, physically useless coward? Never really worked that one out) I really get why if you beling to a group which someone had a good crack at wiping out, I'd want to carry a stick too.

This. I'm a pacifist, but if a Nazi comes at me intending to kill me and mine - forget that shit.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
"violence at recent alt-right demonstrations has been used to recruit, and when “antifa” shows up to fight them it can play into their game plan."

Violence is the objective, it is the idea, it is the gameplan.

Firearms up the ante in terms of the threat of violence certainly, but my analysis for the C'Ville objectives is still as posted to mdijon. The quote about Heather Heyer is, obviously, after the fact. Of course their sympathisers are not going to bemoan any fatalities that occur, but that's not the same as setting out to inflict as many as possible.

Also, note how in that last quote antifa's response plays right into their hands. It gives them a good excuse to inflict violence. Take that away and it would be far harder not to condemn them. Which kind of calls into question the argument that violence is the only effective answer.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Firearms up the ante in terms of the threat of violence certainly, but my analysis for the C'Ville objectives is still as posted to mdijon. The quote about Heather Heyer is, obviously, after the fact. Of course their sympathisers are not going to bemoan any fatalities that occur, but that's not the same as setting out to inflict as many as possible.

You don't seem to really understand the point of fascism.

Coupled with extreme naivety, that's a dangerous cocktail.

quote:
Also, note how in that last quote antifa's response plays right into their hands. It gives them a good excuse to inflict violence. Take that away and it would be far harder not to condemn them. Which kind of calls into question the argument that violence is the only effective answer.
The Nazis wanted violence.
The Antifas gave them a reason to use violence
If the antifas had not been there, they'd have used violence on someone else

Because they're friggin Nazis.

There is no sense that they'd have been happy and peaceful Nazis if the antifas had not been there. Because they're friggin Nazis.

The violence is baked in.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm a pacifist, but if a Nazi comes at me intending to kill me and mine - forget that shit.

As would most of us, probably. But working out what we would do if we see a Nazi (or anyone else for that matter) coming at us is a long way from working out the best way of a group going to face off with a bunch of Nazi protestors, isn't it?

Besides, if your primary objective, as stated above, is to protect people, it doesn't actually involve you protesting against the Nazis at all, does it?

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The Nazis wanted violence.
The Antifas gave them a reason to use violence
If the antifas had not been there, they'd have used violence on someone else

We'll never know, will we? But if they had done, in Charlottesville, I think it would have done them a lot more damage in terms of legitimacy, and highlighted other important problems such as the right to bear arms and poor policing.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As would most of us, probably. But working out what we would do if we see a Nazi (or anyone else for that matter) coming at us is a long way from working out the best way of a group going to face off with a bunch of Nazi protestors, isn't it?

No, for reasons I've given several times now but that you simply don't seem to credit.

Facing off the neo-Nazis means that they engage in fairly low level violence and don't progress to more organised violence against (for example) a passing gay or black person.

quote:
Besides, if your primary objective, as stated above, is to protect people, it doesn't actually involve you protesting against the Nazis at all, does it?
See above.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You can count on San Francisco to creatively countermarch. Note that if you aren't in the region, or are not able to march, they're accepting contributions. I must find out if my sister-in-law is going. She was dancing in the street when the Golden State Warriors won they playoff.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5356 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
We'll never know, will we? But if they had done, in Charlottesville, I think it would have done them a lot more damage in terms of legitimacy, and highlighted other important problems such as the right to bear arms and poor policing.

Yeah, because we've absolutely no evidence of what neo-Nazis do, we've got absolutely no history to look at, no way to tell what a bunch of Nazis congregating with sub machine-guns and other weapons are likely to do.

Oh wait.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
No, for reasons I've given several times now but that you simply don't seem to credit.

[Confused] It's you that seems to be relating how you'd act personally to how one should counter-protest.

quote:
Facing off the neo-Nazis means that they engage in fairly low level violence and don't progress to more organised violence against (for example) a passing gay or black person.
So if I restate your objective, it is to prevent the violence being directed at more vulnerable targets, with violent response if necessary, by counter-protesting? The counter-protesting is a means to that end?

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Eutychus, there are no fine people ho are also fascists, who might tefrain from violence if there are only peaceful, Gandhi-like protestersvin fromt of them. The violence and its threat are part of the identity.

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6916 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh wait.

Which historical event(s) do you see as serving as a precedent for Charlottesville?

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Eutychus, are you British? Nobody needs to highlight the problems with the right to bear arms in this country. But at this point in our political history, it's beyond pointless and probably antiproductive.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62943 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Eutychus, there are no fine people ho are also fascists, who might tefrain from violence if there are only peaceful, Gandhi-like protestersvin fromt of them. The violence and its threat are part of the identity.

Fair enough. The problem as I see it is countering that in such a way that it subverts their objectives instead of helping to fulfil them.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
So if I restate your objective, it is to prevent the violence being directed at more vulnerable targets, with violent response if necessary, by counter-protesting? The counter-protesting is a means to that end?

I've said at least twice that the primary objective has to be to stop the Nazis murdering innocent people. If the police don't or can't then everyone else has a responsibility to.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Eutychus, are you British? Nobody needs to highlight the problems with the right to bear arms in this country. But at this point in our political history, it's beyond pointless and probably antiproductive.

Whether you like it or not, it's a factor that weighs significantly on events like this.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Fair enough. The problem as I see it is countering that in such a way that it subverts their objectives instead of helping to fulfil them.

And how exactly is anything you've said going to "subvert their objectives" given that their objective is race war?

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've said at least twice that the primary objective has to be to stop the Nazis murdering innocent people. If the police don't or can't then everyone else has a responsibility to.

Yes but I'm trying to establish whether you think counter-protesting is a means to that end. Call me dense if you like, but that certainly hasn't been clear to me from your posts up till now.

[ 20. August 2017, 16:35: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Yes but I'm trying to establish whether you think counter-protesting is a means to that end. Call me dense if you like, but that certainly hasn't been clear to me from your posts up till now.

I don't know how to be clearer: if one engages with the Nazis in fairly low level skirmishes, this distracts them so they can't hurt anyone else.

Incidentally, this is basically the tactics used by the British police when the neo-Nazis get violent with them. What they don't do is stand back and allow them to attack someone else.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
And how exactly is anything you've said going to "subvert their objectives" given that their objective is race war?

I have no idea. Clearly I am naive and stupid.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I have no idea. Clearly I am naive and stupid.

I see. So you expect me to have objectives that make sense beyond immediately preventing them from killing other people, but you've got absolutely no idea how you're planning to subvert their objectives.

Here's a clue: you can't subvert their objectives. They're friggin Nazis.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I honestly don't think the organisers of the protest in C'ville had the intent to kill people.

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Why do you think that?

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Because I think what they were trying to do at that protest was to legitimize their movement, making the most of a president who could be relied upon not to denounce them. If there had been more fatalities inflicted by their side that would have been a lot harder to do.

Sounds logical. But basically this boils down to conjecture based on assumptions of how neo-Nazis might reason, including an element of rationality. This might be problematic.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If a Nazi with a sub-machine gun is running towards you and intending to kill you and/or anyone else, then the use of a piece of 2x4 to stop him is almost always going to be proportionate.

Sorry, I would say it's blindingly obvious that if faced with a Nazi with a sub-machine gun then responding with a piece of 2x4 or by non-violently standing your ground isn't going to make much difference in effect. A 2x4 doesn't stop bullets. And, it could be argued that the Nazi with the gun is more likely to fire at someone threatening him with a lump of timber than someone posing no threat at all.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31965 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I have no idea. Clearly I am naive and stupid.

I see. So you expect me to have objectives that make sense beyond immediately preventing them from killing other people, but you've got absolutely no idea how you're planning to subvert their objectives.

Here's a clue: you can't subvert their objectives. They're friggin Nazis.

It was because I had no idea, or at least no clear idea of how my moral compass translated into action (either as an individual or as a representative of the things and people I represent) that I joined this discussion.

I came here to discuss and learn. I've said some things insensitively, apologised for them, and tried to mend my ways. But at this point I just can't find it in me to stomach unrelenting aggressiveness and absolutism in attempting to move the discussion forward.

I can't stand the heat, not of the ideas in play, but of the way they are being referred to. I take enough heat elsewhere without needing to put myself in the way of more here.

And I've come to the conclusion that I personally am not going to learn anything to my benefit by carrying on here.

I'm done.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Sorry, I would say it's blindingly obvious that if faced with a Nazi with a sub-machine gun then responding with a piece of 2x4 or by non-violently standing your ground isn't going to make much difference in effect. A 2x4 doesn't stop bullets. And, it could be argued that the Nazi with the gun is more likely to fire at someone threatening him with a lump of timber than someone posing no threat at all.

And as I said way earlier in this thread, I believe that the only things preventing a gun massacre at Charlottesville was the presence of an armed militia and low level skirmishes from counter-protestors.

You can say all you like about non-violence, but the violence in this case prevented deaths.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:


I can't stand the heat, not of the ideas in play, but of the way they are being referred to. I take enough heat elsewhere without needing to put myself in the way of more here.

And I've come to the conclusion that I personally am not going to learn anything to my benefit by carrying on here.

I'm sorry, there is nothing to discuss if you think that Nazis and fascists are not somehow entirely about violence. That's simply a fact.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Eutychus, are you British? Nobody needs to highlight the problems with the right to bear arms in this country. But at this point in our political history, it's beyond pointless and probably antiproductive.

Whether you like it or not, it's a factor that weighs significantly on events like this.
You've changed the subject.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62943 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
as I said way earlier in this thread, I believe that the only things preventing a gun massacre at Charlottesville was the presence of an armed militia

That would be the various militia who were kitted out like over equipped soldiers. The right wing militia, who were there with the express purpose of defending the right of the Nazis to speak. Were there other militia there I didn't see reported? And, if you do mean those militia, who were the other heavily armed Nazis who were there?

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31965 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That would be the various militia who were kitted out like over equipped soldiers. The right wing militia, who were there with the express purpose of defending the right of the Nazis to speak. Were there other militia there I didn't see reported? And, if you do mean those militia, who were the other heavily armed Nazis who were there?

That'll be the militia who stated that they were against racism but believed in the first amendment. That'll be the militia who counter-protestors report prevented a riot.

Yeah, them.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  5  6  7  8  9  10  11 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools