|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Are evangelicals the problem with racism and trumpism?
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In a speech, the president of the American Atheists says there is no room in atheism for bigotry. You know it's bad, when atheists do what Christians won't.
Just because someone says they're Christian doesn't mean it is true. I know the "born again" meme is that if you utter the magic Jesus prayer or some such, your ticket to heaven and everlasting life is booked, paid for, guaranteed and the Silver Engine won't take the Train of Salvation to heaven except if you're all aboard, but it isn't enough if you didn't actually care to accept grace and merely went through the motions. There's something somewhere in Luke 13 somewhere in the mid 20s for verses about "I don't know you" and "get away you evil doers". I think it applies.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Just because you don't like what they think, you can't disavow someone's Christianity.
Christianity and racism have walked arm in arm for a long time. Disown what they believe, but pretending they aren't "real" Christians is ridiculous.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
There's a Lutheran church in Berlin with swatikas and Wehrmacht soldier images in the wood carvings and stained glass. We are allowed to call bullshit on claims of Christianity. By the fruits, some of which are rotted to the core.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Yes, large chunks of American Christianity are rooted in racism. You know why they're the =Southern= Baptists, right? Because the idea of sitting in a pew with a black person was intolerable. And that's also why there are different flavors of Methodism. African-American Methodists had to go and start their own churches, because white Methodists wouldn't fellowship with them. That the denominations (along with the Mormons) have more or less repented of this has no meaning, as long as they're in bed with a racist and anti-Semitical president.
Would that also have driven all the "nigger rock and roll bop" invective in the 50s, which led to Chitlin Circuit acts bouncing round via the UK and then getting booked in WASP venues?
Assoc Rediffusion and BBC helping out there?
Nice bit of shortsightedness there...
Cultural appropriation and the white-ification of other folks' music and/or art is probably a big enough subject that we could start a separate topic.
I spend all day every day culturally appropriating, and so I think that music, literature and art is a very different thing than overt racism. For one thing, it's a pleasantly two-way street. Write about Chinese girls if you want; I'm writing about white men.
Good point. What I was referring to was how black acts were able to springboard into playing major places in the States after performing in the UK. Rather than PAt Boone covering Little Richard - the Upsetters, John Lee Hookers, Broonzy, Booker T etc etc played the UK, and ended up on Bandstand via UK tours...
Happened a LOT back in the 60s. Bandstand would air ready Steady Go and Top of the Pops clips.. same as TOTP airing Soul Train footage here..
Uk was and is more gender egalitarian - and sadly we've seen the racists come out on the back of Brexit...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
Religious leaders are holding a rally in Washington on Monday. It is the anniversary of Martin Luther King's "I Had a Dream" speech at the Lincoln Memorial. Alas, it's a work day and so I am not going to go.
[ 25. August 2017, 20:01: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
Oh, and because of the oncoming hurricane in Texas, the POST has dropped its paywall. So you can enjoy today's article about the Catholic Church denouncing racism. There's also one, in the same Acts of Faith section, about Jewish leaders refusing the annual conference call with the president. Since it had been started by Obama, I doubt if Lyin' Don is really interested, however.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697
|
Posted
Rushes off to read the POST. Thanks, Brenda.
--------------------
“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”
-- Ivy Compton-Burnett
Posts: 646 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In a speech, the president of the American Atheists says there is no room in atheism for bigotry. You know it's bad, when atheists do what Christians won't.
The negative self-awareness rating a person needs to make that statement is mind-blowing. What about the anti-religious museums of Soviet Russia? What about the persecution of many faithful believers in a multiplicity of faiths in Soviet Russia, Mao's China, North Korea etc? And nearer home what about Professor Dawkins?
The bigot label fits all those just as well as it has ever fitted any of our own home grown bigots.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
Enoch, if you read the article you will see that you have spectacularly missed the point.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
When I say the problem is racism, I mean the unacknowledged, even vehemently denied racism ("He hasn't got a racist bone in his body.") that goes with privilege, that goes with not just being a survivor of history, each sitting on our mountain of corpses, but sitting on a pyramid of up to billions of the living and freshly dead. Who are predominantly non-white.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There's a Lutheran church in Berlin with swatikas and Wehrmacht soldier images in the wood carvings and stained glass. We are allowed to call bullshit on claims of Christianity. By the fruits, some of which are rotted to the core.
You can challenge how they live their Christianity, but if you go down the road of judging whether they are actually Christian, you'll be left with no members but yourself.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There's a Lutheran church in Berlin with swatikas and Wehrmacht soldier images in the wood carvings and stained glass. We are allowed to call bullshit on claims of Christianity. By the fruits, some of which are rotted to the core.
That'll be the Martin Luther Gedächtniskirche with the historical and artistic details explained here (pdf) in all its shocking detail.
Apparently it is now kept as a memorial - so nobody can deny that it happened. I understand that a Protestant church continues to hold services in the building.
I'm not sure I could do that.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Christ deserves better followers than he gets among the racist-evangellos. Why do Jesus' teachings appeal so strongly to people of narrow and malignant nature? Who use it for their own ends?
So we're all God's children. Well, some of us are a disgrace to the family.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Christ deserves better followers than he gets among the racist-evangellos. Why do Jesus' teachings appeal so strongly to people of narrow and malignant nature?
Jesus' actual teachings don't appeal to these people at all, but then they don't really appear to know anything about Jesus' actual teachings.
I think what attracts them to the label is that being a Christian and being a good American are synonymous throughout much of Sarah Palin's "real America."
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Christ deserves better followers than he gets among the racist-evangellos. Why do Jesus' teachings appeal so strongly to people of narrow and malignant nature? Who use it for their own ends?
So we're all God's children. Well, some of us are a disgrace to the family.
Look mate, he deserves better in ALL of us. Why are we sainted liberals so CRAP at embracing racist-evangellos? You know, loving our enemies? Why did Trump follow Obama?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
When I say the problem is racism, I mean the unacknowledged, even vehemently denied racism ("He hasn't got a racist bone in his body.") that goes with privilege
I think there s a significant proportion of white evangelicals in the US who either don't think that racism exists any longer, or thinks that it doesn't exist on a structural level. Hence the reactions they have to BLM in particular (the charge that BLM are racist).
I'd draw some parallels with the point Doc Tor makes in this post here:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=020263;p=9#000409
The left in the UK understands that there are times when the police uphold the establishment rather than the law. Certain minority groups also understand this. US Evangelicals seemingly not so much. So you get stuff like this tweeted by Rodney Howard-Browne of 'Toronto Blessing' fame (also on Trumps advisory board):
https://twitter.com/rhowardbrowne/status/897034833951469568
"We strongly condemn all white supremacists, KKK, Antifa and Black Lives Matter, Main Stream Media in the strongest of terms !!!!!"
[Look at his followups too]
If you follow the twitter feeds of the folk on that side of evangelicalism, there are loads who re-tweet things by prisonplanet, alexjones and so on. I suspect the dispensational backgrounds of such people lends itself to conspiratorial thinking.
[ 26. August 2017, 21:21: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I think there s a significant proportion of white evangelicals in the US who either don't think that racism exists any longer, or thinks that it doesn't exist on a structural level. Hence the reactions they have to BLM in particular (the charge that BLM are racist).
ISTM, there is a mix of issues here. People think if they do not hate or actively oppress, that they are not racist. Sorting out advantage is difficult. People think in Zero-Sum terms. If they get more, I get less.
And there is the Backfire Effect.
quote:
I suspect the dispensational backgrounds of such people lends itself to conspiratorial thinking.
If one rejects critical thinking in one area...
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
A substantial number of white evangelicals in the US not only believes that there is no prejudice against black persons, they believe that white people are discriminated against, and that Christians are persecuted. Somehow the Christmas season (due to begin any day now) in all its overwhelming presence in our culture does not mean we are not persecuted. To quote Inigo Montoya, "I do not think that word means what you think it means."
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
What a fucking disgrace RHB is. It ALL fits. Charismatic BOLLOCKS. Ah well. The thing is Doc is right. Because as MKG said, Christianity would be a good idea. In its absence, we'll have to have the failing left, it loses nearly every battle but might win the war at everybody else's expense.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
The alt-right has its alt-Christianity, just like extremists in the Middle East have their alt-Islam.
The money quote: "If we don’t provide emerging generations with genuine identity, community and purpose through robust and vibrant spiritual communities, somebody else will do so. If good religion slumbers and stagnates, bad religion is the alternative."
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Historically speaking good religion only ever slumbers and stagnates, that's what its for. Bad religion emerges when inequality goes beyond the unbearable: people seem to be able to bear unbearable shit for lifetimes and centuries with sufficient 'good' religion. What makes them start squishing us on our shopping malls?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Russ
Old salt
# 120
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Christ deserves better followers than he gets among the racist-evangellos. Why do Jesus' teachings appeal so strongly to people of narrow and malignant nature? Who use it for their own ends?
You don't get it.
It's not the words of Jesus that appeal. It's not racism that appeals. It's conservatism - the idea that tradition is of God, tradition is normative, that the way things used to be is the way things should be. Used to be when ? In the Golden Age of America, when everything was better than it is now. Located somewhen after the Civil War and somewhen before the 1960s.
That is a very attractive worldview to a certain type of person.
I find the American usage of "conservative" for "right-wing" deeply unhelpful.
--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
You don't get it.
It's not the words of Jesus that appeal. It's not racism that appeals. It's conservatism - the idea that tradition is of God, tradition is normative, that the way things used to be is the way things should be. Used to be when ? In the Golden Age of America, when everything was better than it is now.
There is an element of this - but equally there is an element of '...when everything was better than it was now and when blacks and jews knew their place', look at the where 'christian private schools' grew most post de-segregation.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
...there is an element of '...when everything was better than it was now and when blacks and jews knew their place', look at the where 'christian private schools' grew most post de-segregation.
Many parents took their kids out of public schools at the time of de-segregation because the integration programs were so badly managed. My brother-in-law lived in Birmingham, Alabama. Their son went to integrated public schools for the first three grades. He was in a different school each year with different classmates. At the end of third grade, his parents were told that they would be given information during the summer about where he would attend fourth grade. Two weeks before the opening of school, his mother phoned and asked what school he had been assigned to. She was told that they hadn't worked it out yet, but they would let her know before school started. At this point they enrolled him in a private Baptist school.
The adjustment to a new school every year is hard on a child. The boy spent the next several years at the same school with the same classmates. It was much better for him.
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
...there is an element of '...when everything was better than it was now and when blacks and jews knew their place', look at the where 'christian private schools' grew most post de-segregation.
Many parents took their kids out of public schools at the time of de-segregation because the integration programs were so badly managed. My brother-in-law lived in Birmingham, Alabama. Their son went to integrated public schools for the first three grades. He was in a different school each year with different classmates. At the end of third grade, his parents were told that they would be given information during the summer about where he would attend fourth grade. Two weeks before the opening of school, his mother phoned and asked what school he had been assigned to. She was told that they hadn't worked it out yet, but they would let her know before school started. At this point they enrolled him in a private Baptist school.
The adjustment to a new school every year is hard on a child. The boy spent the next several years at the same school with the same classmates. It was much better for him.
I think it entirely depends on what you mean by many. I don't think it is by any means a stretch to say the the vast majority moved their children because of idea of desegregation rather than its implementation. Given the church separations, the protests against desegregation, Jim Crow...It is rather a stretch to impart motives other than racism to very many.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I am thrilled to hear that there is a group "POTUS Shield" to pray for the president. But they should work harder at it.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
So true.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Christ deserves better followers than he gets among the racist-evangellos. Why do Jesus' teachings appeal so strongly to people of narrow and malignant nature? Who use it for their own ends?
You don't get it.
It's not the words of Jesus that appeal. It's not racism that appeals. It's conservatism - the idea that tradition is of God, tradition is normative, that the way things used to be is the way things should be. Used to be when ? In the Golden Age of America, when everything was better than it is now. Located somewhen after the Civil War and somewhen before the 1960s.
That is a very attractive worldview to a certain type of person.
I find the American usage of "conservative" for "right-wing" deeply unhelpful.
A quote from a retired Chancellor of a theological college comes to mind, Russ.
There are indeed some people for whom the idea of change is disturbing and they are indeed attracted to conservative churches. But here is the quote, probably prophetic, from that retired Chancellor (at an ordination for a radical, forward looking priest).
"If you remember nothing else that I say this evening please remember this. The seven last words of the church are as follows.
We've
Never
Done
It
This
Way
Before."
I underline this observation with a quote from James Blish's "A Case of Conscience".
"He had wanted nothing to change
And now was, unchangeably, nothing".
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha
I think it entirely depends on what you mean by many. I don't think it is by any means a stretch to say the the vast majority moved their children because of idea of desegregation rather than its implementation. Given the church separations, the protests against desegregation, Jim Crow...It is rather a stretch to impart motives other than racism to very many.
You are guessing; you may be right.
The statistic that would settle the question is,
AFAIK, not available. We need to know whether many children transferred to private schools after one or more years in integrated schools.
My in-laws were quite willing to have their son in integrated schools if the school system had been well-run. I suspect that many other parents put their kids in private schools when the school system said they didn't know what school the kids would attend. The school system failed to meet what many would consider a minimum standard.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The statistic that would settle the question is,
AFAIK, not available. We need to know whether many children transferred to private schools after one or more years in integrated schools.
You could also look at the forms those alternate schools took. This is an incomplete list, and there are other forms this kind of thing would have taken.
[ 28. August 2017, 22:11: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
You are guessing; you may be right.
I'm not guessing, but making a reasonable conclusion from the evidence available from pre segregation to the present. Could be wrong, but it is less probable.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
