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Source: (consider it) Thread: Reading Outpouring
ExclamationMark
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Anyone got any up to date news and/or comment?
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Baptist Trainfan
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I did read this article the other day.
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simontoad
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Who is the most popular rapper in Wales?

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Who is the most popular rapper in Wales?

Possibly I'm missing some sarcasm as I don't understand the relevance - but probably the most popular and most successful hip-hop/rap group in Wales is Goldie Lookin Chain.

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arse

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Martin60
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I find it all pathetically, depressingly, sadly, grandiosely deluded, most discouraging. All. Obviously I have longing I didn't know I had!

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Love wins

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Gamaliel
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Sorry, but that Baptist minister is so naive ...

Anyone can find somebody to 'pray the prayer of commitment' on the streets if they ask enough people to do so. So what?

A lady from Beijing praying 'sincerely' in broken English ...

How the heck do we tell how 'sincere' she was or whether she understood what she was doing? Who is in touch with her and anyone else they prayed for to see whether there's been any follow-through on so-called 'commitments'.

This isn't evangelism, it's decisionism.

I really wish evangelicals would ditch this silly 'prayer of commitment' thing and take a more robust and more discerning approach.

Yes, people do come to faith this way, but it's generally through the normal, everyday life of these churches and not the special missions. I've seen all this before. Many, many times.

What the missions and the rah-rah-rah do is to provide them with a focus and a unifying cause. It's a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy thing.

On one level, I'm pleased they're out there but on another I really wish they'd do things differently.

It's like a 'prayer-of-commitment' is an end it itself,some kind of spiritual scalp-hunting.

All the article about the sabbatical time in Llandudno does is make me wish the minister had used his time more wisely and effectively elsewhere, supporting a homeless hostel or a hospice, engaging in some form of social action or some other form of evangelism and not some dopey count the number of 'commitments' exercise.

Wake up!

It's about time evangelicals grew up and abandoned this kind of adolescent descisionist wish- fulfilment.

Grrrrr ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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simontoad
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Who is the most popular rapper in Wales?

Ll Cool J

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Human

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Mark Wuntoo
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Gamaliel [Overused]

Personally I think the man needs to get converted.

And the Baptist Times gave it space! [Mad]

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Martin60
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It shows how desperate the low church is, all predicated on damnationism at the end and start of the day. Like baptizing infants to spare them from limbo and Mormons buying up genealogy records to create eternal families. Delusion is rampant in religion. Incarnationality is absent. We will do anything but. And if we do act communally it comes at a crushing price, whether in the Jesus Army or Islam and everything in between.

Except at Oasis of course. Which this guy seemed to be connected to once in its earlier days.

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Love wins

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SvitlanaV2
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But the team had a good time, and passers-by got a little bit of friendly spirituality to go with their shopping.

Maybe no 'real' Christians were made, but that's not a surprise, is it? Very few are likely to be made from now on. The numbers will continue to slide, regardless of the methods used.

The 'naive' pastor was happy, and the nice ladies were happy. I don't think we should expect much more than this.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Who is the most popular rapper in Wales?

Ll Cool J
Ah. And the relevance of this is what?

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arse

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Who is the most popular rapper in Wales?

Ll Cool J
Most droll.

[ 08. September 2017, 08:58: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But the team had a good time, and passers-by got a little bit of friendly spirituality to go with their shopping.

Maybe no 'real' Christians were made, but that's not a surprise, is it? Very few are likely to be made from now on. The numbers will continue to slide, regardless of the methods used.

The 'naive' pastor was happy, and the nice ladies were happy. I don't think we should expect much more than this.

Jesus does. It doesn't seem to be doing Him any good! Outside Waterloo.

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Love wins

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Gamaliel
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Being happy is one thing, but this is the Gospel we're talking about. I'd have thought it was a rather more serious issue than a pastor happlily thinking he was 'riding the wave of the Spirit' or whatever he called it or little old ladies feeling they'd had a nice conversation with that pleasant religious young man ... now what was it he asked us to say / pray again?

Will there be many more 'real' Christians in future?

Are there many now?

I'd have thought it takes a lifetime (and beyond?) to make a 'real' Christian. A quick prayer or solicited mental assent to a set of propositions on the promenade at Llandudno on a summer's day somehow trivialises the whole thing ...

As does a, 'Well, at least someone was happy' response.

If we are talking about solemn, eternal truths here and not something to while away a summer's afternoon in Llandudno or on a Reading high-street, then surely it deserves better than this?

[Help]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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simontoad
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I was just being silly. I initially thought the OP was being silly, and my silly trigger is very itchy. Incidentally, I heard the joke on a podcast about new acts at the Edinburgh Fringe.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
And the Baptist Times gave it space! [Mad]

Well, they also gave a lot of space to the original "outpouring".

I must say that I am always sceptical about this kind of thing and very much go along with Gamaliel ... However my local Catholic priest, a member of the New Wine network, is very positive.

EM, can we have your take on things, please?

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Being happy is one thing, but this is the Gospel we're talking about. I'd have thought it was a rather more serious issue than a pastor happlily thinking he was 'riding the wave of the Spirit' or whatever he called it or little old ladies feeling they'd had a nice conversation with that pleasant religious young man ... now what was it he asked us to say / pray again?

Will there be many more 'real' Christians in future?

Are there many now?

I'd have thought it takes a lifetime (and beyond?) to make a 'real' Christian. A quick prayer or solicited mental assent to a set of propositions on the promenade at Llandudno on a summer's day somehow trivialises the whole thing ...

As does a, 'Well, at least someone was happy' response.

If we are talking about solemn, eternal truths here and not something to while away a summer's afternoon in Llandudno or on a Reading high-street, then surely it deserves better than this?

[Help]

Aye, it deserves a city on a hill with lights on top of bushels and savoury salt. Not this feeble deluded dross. It's OK, Islam will do it.

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Love wins

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

I must say that I am always sceptical about this kind of thing and very much go along with Gamaliel ... However my local Catholic priest, a member of the New Wine network, is very positive.

I know people local to the area who also go to New Wine, and even they had to admit that the way it was portrayed was somewhat different to the reality on the ground.
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Baptist Trainfan
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I hadn't realised that there is a link from the BT article to this "First Annual Report". To be fair, amidst the stories of claimed successes it does talk of some lessons learned, although I am grammatically annoyed by the suggestion that "'The Turning' is becoming a phenomena".
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Gamaliel
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To the tune of 'funiculi, funicular ...'

'phenemenon ... Phenomena ...'

Phenomenon my arse.

It's just bog-standard decisionism with bells on.

I remember tent crusades back in the '80s where 'hundreds' were claimed to have been 'saved' and where we'd end up with 3 or 4 converts at most ...

It's all bollocks.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Bishops Finger
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SvitlanaV2 said:

Maybe no 'real' Christians were made, but that's not a surprise, is it? Very few are likely to be made from now on. The numbers will continue to slide, regardless of the methods used.

This something of an astonishing claim. Maybe fewer people are coming to faith here in the decadent and declining West, but what about the growing churches in Africa, China, South Korea, etc.?

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Mark Wuntoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...
I remember tent crusades back in the '80s where 'hundreds' were claimed to have been 'saved' and where we'd end up with 3 or 4 converts at most ...

It's all bollocks.

Different times, different phenomena. Nowadays it seems the church (or part of it) continually needs a new fad - maybe 'The Turning' is the latest?

To be fair, the Billy Graham Crusades of the 1950's did produce significant numbers of new Christians who went on to train for ministry at home and overseas. For example, a well-known Bible College in Glasgow opened its year with testimonies from all new students and I remember that we remarked how many claimed to have been converted at a Billy Graham rally.

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I remember tent crusades back in the '80s where 'hundreds' were claimed to have been 'saved' and where we'd end up with 3 or 4 converts at most ...

This isn't an exact parallel, but ...

Many years ago Michael Griffiths (later Principal of London Bible College) was a missionary in Japan, a country with a tiny Christian population.

An evangelistic crusade was held with an American preacher, to which Michael took a Japanese friend. At the end of the sermon, the evangelist issued a call and many people put up their hands or streamed to the front (I can't remember which).

Griffiths' friend turned to him and politely asked, "Will the man be offended if I don't put my hand up?" Griffiths assured him that he wouldn't be.

An interesting tale as it shows the very different assumptions being made by the evangelist and the hearer. What, one asks, might be the parallel in Llandudno or Reading? And what comprehension of the "Prayer of Commitment" is being made by those who pray it? What do they actually think they have done?

If the whole thing resulted in enquirers battering down the doors of churches on Sunday mornings, asking to join the congregations, I'd be more favourable.

[On a different line: I've never found that "Back to Church" Sunday "worked". But yesterday I was speaking to an Anglo-Catholic priest who said that it had had a striking and lasting effect on his previous congregation, with regular attendance almost doubling overnight].

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Martin60
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That's your finest line G. You should leave it there [Smile] Or just trot it out for KC & J. Every time, not just once a thread.

Ay up Baptist: "If the whole thing resulted in enquirers battering down the doors of churches on Sunday mornings, asking to join the congregations, I'd be more favourable."

Dunno. I've no idea why people would just want to do services. Why they in fact do. And what could possibly make the unchurched do that? Apart from medically, scientifically and financially impossible true miracles? Or impossible possible miracles? Just one would do. The first one in Jerusalem. Holding all things in common. That one.

[ 08. September 2017, 16:17: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Gamaliel
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I am at my best when most succinct.

I will try to do better in future and keep things short, sharp and to the point.

On the tent crusades thing -- yes, there was a big difference in impact between the Graham Crusades of the '50s and those of later decades.

I was thinking of localised tent crusades though, organised by a particular church or group of churches.

I was involved with several of those and soon became disillusioned with the extravagant claims and lack of tangible 'results' in all but a few instances.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I was involved with several of those and soon became disillusioned with the extravagant claims and lack of tangible 'results' in all but a few instances.

Brother Gamaliel - eternity alone will reveal the results of our endeavors.
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Gamaliel
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Sure, I'm referring to 'results' in terms of the over-egged expectations that so often accompanied these endeavours.

The criteria I'd use would be different now to what it was back then.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

Maybe fewer people are coming to faith here in the decadent and declining West, but what about the growing churches in Africa, China, South Korea, etc.?

IJ

I'm not talking about Africa and China. (Although there are some here who would say that the methods used there are also quite poor, and that numbers mean very little, etc.)


quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Will there be many more 'real' Christians in future?

Are there many now?

I'd have thought it takes a lifetime (and beyond?) to make a 'real' Christian. A quick prayer or solicited mental assent to a set of propositions on the promenade at Llandudno on a summer's day somehow trivialises the whole thing ...

As does a, 'Well, at least someone was happy' response.

If we are talking about solemn, eternal truths here and not something to while away a summer's afternoon in Llandudno or on a Reading high-street, then surely it deserves better than this?

[Help]

But most of our fellow countrymen aren't going to devote their lives to becoming 'real' Christians. And few of us in the churches are going to devote our lives to urging them to do so with any great success.

That being so, I think it's reasonable for ministers and congregations to seek out ways of offering spiritual sustenance to the kinds of people who'd never realistically fetch up at their churches on Sundays. It's a humble desire that many MOTR churches would be happy with. They wouldn't involve decisionist prayers, of course, but many of the strangers who welcome prayer probably already see themselves as Christians, and MOTR churchgoing Christians wouldn't reject their claims anyway.

The interesting question is what these individuals think they're doing when they agree to make these prayers. I think that many of them will see their 'decisionism' as a confirmation of spiritual inclinations that they already have. They don't see the prayers as a promise to become orthodox, churchgoing, ready to listen to endless sermons and study a bunch of devotional or theological material.

As for the churchy folk who go out onto the streets with their decisionist agenda, I find their endeavours strangely but admirably self-denying. Their work doesn't start by getting a bunch of strangers into church and moulding them into the right kind of Christians who'll stick around and pay tithes/pay for the leaky boiler for the next 20 years. They simply offer these strangers something they want - prayer. What these people choose to do next is left entirely up to them.

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simontoad
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Talking things up was in fashion on the day I was born, and I predict will continue to win claytons converts after I'm dead. You can't fight it. At most, you can puncture a few balloons with incisive wit if you're a good runner.

Oh dear, I've just remembered what the Reading Outpouring is. I genuinely thought the OP was a dig at the tendency of people to post about stuff that's in the news. My sincere apologies.

[ 09. September 2017, 02:22: Message edited by: simontoad ]

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Human

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Brother Gamaliel - eternity alone will reveal the results of our endeavors.

Up to a point Lord Chris. In my experience, that's usually an excuse for carrying on doing something that clearly isn't working, either because one happens personally to like doing it or because one is doctrinally obliged to believe it ought to work.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I was involved with several of those and soon became disillusioned with the extravagant claims and lack of tangible 'results' in all but a few instances.

Brother Gamaliel - eternity alone will reveal the results of our endeavors.
Which will tend to the infinitesimal.

[ 09. September 2017, 08:49: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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