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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » 2001 September 11 - is it time to move on? (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: 2001 September 11 - is it time to move on?
Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686

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I have an odd relationship to 11 Sept., as I was working in a bank/broker at the time, by the trading floor, and a few of us knew that something very wrong was happening in advance of CNN. A friend of mine in a different bank lost a colleague who was having breakfast in the office of Cantor Fitzgerald.

Lest the American shipmates think that the outside world "doesn't get it" (and, really, mostly we do), I highly recommend watching 11'09"01 [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11%2709"01_September_11]11'09"01[/url] .

Posts: 607 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
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Wow,Doc, using demographics to second guess political attitudes of a group. Isn't that just implying guilt by association?

All I'm saying is that the purpose of the British Legion has nothing to do with Brexiting. And that purpose is well served by seeking to raise the 'lest we forget' profile. In keeping with Santayana's one-liner. Which has absolutely zero to do with either military jingoism and Europhobia. In fact, maintaining awareness of the human cost of conflict works in the opposite direction to both of those.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20819 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pangolin Guerre
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[I was trying to fix the link, and the edit window expired. To continue...]

11'09"01 (wiki it) is a compendium of fictional short films about global response to 11 Sept. As with all compendia, the quality is uneven, some films may strike a chord, others not, but even the ones you dislike will give you some insight to what the reaction to that outrage was, half a planet away. I was fortunate to have spent Oct 2001 in South Africa, and it was a bracing upending of a lot of my assumptions in regard to reactions to that day.

Part of what so saddens me is that the enormous good will of the world (recall Le Monde's editorial of 13 Sept 2001, "We Are All Americans") was so stupidly squandered.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Wow,Doc, using demographics to second guess political attitudes of a group. Isn't that just implying guilt by association?

No, it's making a value judgement based on knowledge. How do you arrive at your opinions?

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Get your arse to Mars

Posts: 8633 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
It should be noted that the 2001 Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) passed by the U.S. Congress to fight al Qæda and the Taliban is still being used today as the legal basis for doing things like shooting down Syrian fighter jets. At the very least it seems like it's time to review what has essentially become a blank check for the American president to use the military whenever and wherever (and apparently whyever) he likes.

And it looks like that just failed in the Senate.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62882 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
[I was trying to fix the link, and the edit window expired. To continue...]

11'09"01 (wiki it) is a compendium of fictional short films about global response to 11 Sept. As with all compendia, the quality is uneven, some films may strike a chord, others not, but even the ones you dislike will give you some insight to what the reaction to that outrage was, half a planet away. I was fortunate to have spent Oct 2001 in South Africa, and it was a bracing upending of a lot of my assumptions in regard to reactions to that day.

Part of what so saddens me is that the enormous good will of the world (recall Le Monde's editorial of 13 Sept 2001, "We Are All Americans") was so stupidly squandered.

Good point.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Wow,Doc, using demographics to second guess political attitudes of a group. Isn't that just implying guilt by association?

No, it's making a value judgement based on knowledge. How do you arrive at your opinions?
The charitable aim of the Legion is support for ex military personnel and immediate families. It is financed by donations and poppy sales. Remembrance Day events are important for maintaining its profile. Although support needs arising from WW1 and WW2 have obviously diminished, later conflicts continue to add support needs.

Like any other organisation, a broad appeal is going to be much more effective than a narrow political one. So obtaining cross party support for Remembrance Day was simply a part of that.

Although such reports may exist, and there may well be individual supporters, I've seen no investigations showing ties between the Legion and UKIP or Neofascist organisations.

As well as my personal experiences from conversations with old soldiers, most of whom were very much like Harry Patch in outlook, I know past and present local Legion Chaplains who are all Remainers and are positive about the continuing good work of the Legion.

None of that is conclusive of course, but those are the factors which inform my views about the Legion. So far as Remembrance Day support goes, and support for similar acts of Remembrance, I guess I'm influenced by the experiences and sufferings of close family members who were in uniform in WW2, principally my father. And I think Santayana was, and continues to be, right about lessons from history.

Anyway, folks have been reading my stuff here for a long time, know that I'm radical left of centre, international in outlook, critical of military adventurism, and a strong Remainer. I don't find any conflict between those views and continuing support for Remembrance events.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20819 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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# 368

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Bravo.

And as for commemoration of more pointed events, 9 11, Diana - by whose Liberty flame I stood a couple of days ago, she'd have been mortified by the beggar - they will age out in less than a century. No need to get competetive about it.

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Love wins

Posts: 16321 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The charitable aim of the Legion is support for ex military personnel and immediate families. It is financed by donations and poppy sales. Remembrance Day events are important for maintaining its profile. Although support needs arising from WW1 and WW2 have obviously diminished, later conflicts continue to add support needs.

Like any other organisation, a broad appeal is going to be much more effective than a narrow political one. So obtaining cross party support for Remembrance Day was simply a part of that.

Although such reports may exist, and there may well be individual supporters, I've seen no investigations showing ties between the Legion and UKIP or Neofascist organisations.

Well, it's a good job I didn't either challenge their stated charitable aim, nor linked them with neofascists, because otherwise you'd have me over a barrel there.

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Get your arse to Mars

Posts: 8633 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I don't think the British Legion is the front organisation for determined Europhobes.

But neither can you say that (given the demographics of the average Legion member) a great many aren't Europhobes, nor that it didn't influence their campaign.

I was following up on what I saw as the misrepresentations in rolyn's post.

Clearly I misunderstood the implication of this part of your post and I apologise. If you are saying that a part of the Europhobe campaign misused Remembrance for jingoistic ends, I think that may well be true. But that was not the Legion aim.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20819 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
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I would certainly argue that a renewed emphasis on Britain's warlike past (when we stuck it to Jonny Foreigner and half the globe was coloured pink) has played quite neatly into the nationalistic and isolationist rhetoric that's been building over the last couple of decades.

I would probably also go on to argue that the RBL's money-raising activities are not harmed by the synergy between the two. I'd also assert that it's now being used to normalise, rather than dissuade, service in the armed forces, and the RBL are at best neutral on that front.

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Get your arse to Mars

Posts: 8633 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
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Maybe Doc, but as this thread points out, association with jingoism also puts a lot of people off, so it may also be harmful to some potential RBL support. You can't always control those who try to "muscle in" on your activities for their own purposes.

Reminds me of our other discussion about the antifa coalition. There is a lot of muddying of waters in our world today, giving rise to much confusion over intentions and motives.

And I think that is part of the issue surrounding acts of remembrance, whether here or the US. Here's Harry Patch.

quote:
Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Charles Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder.
quote:
I was a bit doubtful before meeting a German soldier. Herr Kuentz is a very nice gentleman however. He is all for a united Europe and peace – and so am I


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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20819 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Maybe Doc, but as this thread points out, association with jingoism also puts a lot of people off, so it may also be harmful to some potential RBL support.

I don't think people on this thread are particularly representative of the wider public - surely the accusation is that we're a liberal, left-wing bubble? So I'd take the disquiet mentioned here with an appropriately large pinch of salt.

My kids' ex-school (I get to say that now they've both left) brought in soldiers and weaponry to celebrate Remembrance Day. The Iraqi family who we bombed out of their home and turned into refugees were less than pleased, year on year, and I wrote a letter excusing the Boy from any participation barring the actual act of Remembrance. But the number of objections and complaints were, anecdotally at least, very few. Most people are apparently okay with this sort of thing.

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Get your arse to Mars

Posts: 8633 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
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And there have been suggestions that propaganda - excuse me, *information* - about the importance of the armed forces should be added to the National Curriculum to boost the number of army recruits. The ruling classes are running out of cannon fodder. Must be because of all those left-wing teachers indoctrinating them. Can't have anything to do with government cutbacks, oh dear me no.
Posts: 3823 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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