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Source: (consider it) Thread: Harvey Weinstein and Liberal Hyposcrisy
Martin60
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Emma Thompson identified genuine liberal hypocrisy, the blind eye in the name of art, with one name: Polanski.

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Love wins

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
As Scalzi said (did I post that link here?)

Yes, you did. And this bit from another link you posted is troublesome.
quote:
(Kim) MASTERS: Yes. And somebody, I suspect, leaked that memo. You know, it's - I don't think it's a coincidence that two New York publications ended up with this story - New York Times and New Yorker. He has not been at the peak of his powers for some years now. The company's had money troubles. He's struggled a bit. He hasn't quite had that lock on Oscar that he had for so long.
(Bold Mine)
In other words, Weinstein had a chink in his armour. This was necessary before others would dare face him. There are others, will they be outed as well? Will behaviours change? Or will he become the scape goat that allows the industry to feel good about itself whist doing nothing to change...

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Emma Thompson identified genuine liberal hypocrisy, the blind eye in the name of art, with one name: Polanski.

I don't get that one. The piece of shit bastard. However, that is not liberal hypocrisy any more than Weinstein is. It is the standard fame blinders that nearly everyone seems to have.
And did you know Thompson initially signed a petition for Polansky's pardon? Whilst it is good she eventually listened to concerns regarding that and withdrew the signature, she did not sign it in ignorance.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Ohher
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L'organist: first, people who act these days are actors, just as poets are poets (not poetesses), and flight attendants are flight attendants (and not stewardesses). Second, I think you have some profound misunderstandings of the acting profession. Having (long ago and far away) been an actor myself for 8-10 years, perhaps you’d appreciate some enlightenment.

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
But the spectacle of every actress under the sun leaping gamely onto the "get Harvey" bandwagon is sickening:. . .

Hyperbole aside, what behavior should we ask of actors who have been harassed, groped, assaulted, etc. Silence? Don’t make a fuss? You do realize that each accuser will now be questioned, cross-questioned, have her past raked over, her credibility scrutinized, possibly get subpoenaed if there's eventually a trial, chance getting her career derailed in the meantime as other (male) producers (and male they mostly are) wonder whether she might accuse them, and generally risk a lot of deeply unpleasant intrusion into her privacy on top of what she has already endured. You seem to be assuming they're all lying. Possibly some are; but few people with sense would lie for rewards like the ones above.
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
. . . if Mr Weinstein didn't have young children who must be deeply traumatised by this circus it might even be funny.

Are you suggesting that what Mr. Weinstein has already admitted to isn't traumatizing to his family?
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
So, the child of American "theatre royalty", Gwyneth Paltrow, didn't feel able to speak out? Really??? This from a woman who makes a fortune through rampant narcissism and self-promotion with details about her vagina-steaming (I kid you not) and such rot?

Not a Paltrow fan, I take it; no matter. Once American film stars – especially those of the female persuasion – reach Paltrow’s level of fame, they are carefully-packaged commodities. Their career decisions lie mostly in the hands of others (again, often male). The star will be under contract to a production company which calls the shots. She’ll have a manager, an agent, a publicist and on and on, all of whose financial fortunes depend on her “draw,” and that draw will be seen by this (mostly male) coterie of dependents in terms of the star’s looks and sex appeal. The star’s say in the roles she plays (and how), the publicized activities she engages in, the aspects of her private life (if she can be said to have one) that get revealed, the scripted “opinions” she releases – it’s all managed, and managed according to the bank accounts and imaginations of these others. If you take a look at the bulk of what American movie-makers screen every year – apparently tailored to the tastes of culturally-deprived, hormone-drenched 14-year-old boys who like explosions and loud noises – you will see the “vagina-steaming” material for what it is. Of course, it’s also possible that Paltrow actually and personally and willingly participated in something like this (I certainly don't know). There is no accounting for some people’s curiosities.
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Similarly Angelina Jolie: more than happy to pursue the family feud with her father Jon Voight (also a Hollywood insider) and with starring roles from when she was 20, felt unable to say anything?

Family feuds sell. While I don’t share the fairly wide-spread fascination many Americans seem to have with the so-called lives and alleged doings of celebrities, it’s a Real Thing. When she’s alone in a room somewhere (assuming she’s lucky enough to ever have such moments) Jolie is a human being. Wherever public awareness intersects with Jolie, however, she is a commodified industry packaged for sale; see above.
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
And this morning British actress Cara Delvigne has joined the baying mob, though quite how a granddaughter of Joselyn Stevens can claim she didn't know how to complain or who to is a mystery.

Not knowing either reference, the only comment I can make here is that knowing how to complain, or knowing who to complain to, is not necessarily the issue. It’s not knowing (at the time something happened) that there are other victims, or that you are not alone; it’s recognizing that you may not be believed (just as apparently you don’t); that you have little power in comparison with the person who has trespassed against you; it’s recognizing that he may retaliate against you, and that you have little or no recourse.
People’s public personas are not necessarily completely congruent with their private ones.

During my 8-10 year theatre career, I played a murderer, a prostitute, an Irish revolutionary, a nun, a Russian spy, a German nurse, a Swedish genius, a wealthy eccentric, a poor innocent, a French queen, an American Puritan, and on and on. I said and did things on stage I would never say or do in my own life. I have little in common with most of these characters. Please: stop confusing actors with the roles they play.
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist

From the days before Hollywood existed the entertainment industry has had a reputation for attracting men hoping to parlay supposed influence into sexual favours from gullible young people. And from the earliest days too there have been plenty of up-coming actresses and actors who have turned around and said fuck off and have gone on to enjoy good, satisfying and highly successful careers. If you don't believe me, look at Katherine Hepburn and Bette Davis: both spoke about the casting couch in the 1940s yet had stellar careers.

Two. Against how many others?
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:



I'm mystified that a whole bunch of women who have made a career based on appearing in public wearing little (sometimes) and speaking in front of hundreds as a day-to-day event have found themselves unable to turn around and say "no" when confronted by boorish behaviour.

It appears you’ve swallowed – hook, line, and sinker – the antique stereotype of actors as “loose, immoral women.” Again, men by and large run the entertainment industry. Do you really imagine that this “whole bunch of women” is embracing the opportunity to appear in public in little or no clothing? Let me set you straight: Deep in the American Bible Belt, while playing a role for an insignificant little touring company at a dinner theatre, I was ordered by the director to play a scene (previously played in somewhat revealing clothing) in the nude. I refused. I was then reminded of where I was, how many thousands of miles it was back to my home in New York City, how much it would cost me to get there, and what might happen to delay – indefinitely – my next paycheck if I continued to object. And I was a nobody, playing in a nothing-to-brag-about company, for a podunk little outfit, with very little at stake.
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

No, I don't condone abuse -

Really? It rather sounds as though you do – as long as it’s meted out to shameless, disgusting hussies with the bad taste, poor judgment, and questionable morals to go into acting. And showing skin! Tsk!
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

Mr Weinstein deserves a level playing field and a fair hearing - something he isn't getting from anyone from the Obamas down. Shameful.

But shameless hussies don’t, apparently.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
What a load of crap.

What's crap - and hypocrisy - is the appropriation of the term liberal by left-wing admirers or toleraters of various forms of Stalinism, in Hollywood and elsewhere.
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The purpose appears to be to attack liberals.

The purpose is to expose left-wingers who call themselves liberals and sympathise with nauseatingly illiberal communist regimes - a form of hypocrisy which, historically, happened in the case of a number of prominent Hollywood figures as regards the USSR in particular.
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mousethief

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A number of people thought the Soviet Union was a liberal construct. The USSR played to this (Potempkin villages anyone?). Eventually people were disabused and gave up the idea. Using this as a club to beat liberals with is really low.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The purpose appears to be to attack liberals.

The purpose is to expose left-wingers who call themselves liberals and sympathise with nauseatingly illiberal communist regimes - a form of hypocrisy which, historically, happened in the case of a number of prominent Hollywood figures as regards the USSR in particular.
Historically, as in past history. Isn't the way it works now, wasn't universal then and has fuck all to do with Weinstein.

And to take you logic to its logical completion, all conservatives are Hitlerphiles longing for a fourth Reich.

[ 13. October 2017, 04:31: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And to take you logic to its logical completion, all conservatives are Hitlerphiles longing for a fourth Reich.

Wait - what? They're not? [Ultra confused]
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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And to take you logic to its logical completion, all conservatives are Hitlerphiles longing for a fourth Reich.

Wait - what? They're not? [Ultra confused]
So they say.

In any case I thought the communist sympathisers in the US generally used the term "radical" rather than liberal. Liberal is usually a term of abuse among tankies.

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Huia
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This may be helpful. John Scalzi is one of the clearest thinkers I know.

I liked the article and read about three quarters of the comments. What did concern me, and if anyone made this point then I missed it, was that in the embedded piece about thinking of women as a tough (though apparently easy going bloke) all of the women pictured were young and good looking. (I think they were all white too, but I may be wrong about that).

No one said older women, plain women or overweight women get abused and raped as well, that it is not only the clothes a woman is wearing that have no bearing on whether or not she is raped, her age and what she looks like are not a factor. Babies are raped and Grandmothers are raped.

Of course men of all shapes and sizes too are raped.

Rape is about power.

So did I speak up when I was raped, by the son of a policeman with a reputation for 'finding' drugs that weren't there before he 'found' them?

No.

Would I do the same again?

Yes.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
What's crap - and hypocrisy - is the appropriation of the term liberal by left-wing admirers or toleraters of various forms of Stalinism, in Hollywood and elsewhere.

That has nothing to do with anything as anyone with a braincell can tell you.

All actors are not liberals, all liberals are not the same, some actors are claiming to be liberals whilst secretly are [supporters of whatever or believers in whatever or fans of whatever].

This is of zero relevance to the issue under discussion and is simply a cheap and stupid point-scoring exercise.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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I should note that I was completely wrong about something earlier.

Of course there are complete fools who have crawled out of the woodwork and have claimed the Weinstein allegations are symptomatic of the abusive "Jewish control of the media", that they're somehow directly linked to Israeli military actions and so forth.

I should have known this was going to happen and I apologise for doubting the inevitable anti-Jewish backlash.

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arse

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Emma Thompson identified genuine liberal hypocrisy, the blind eye in the name of art, with one name: Polanski.

I don't get that one. The piece of shit bastard. However, that is not liberal hypocrisy any more than Weinstein is. It is the standard fame blinders that nearly everyone seems to have.
And did you know Thompson initially signed a petition for Polansky's pardon? Whilst it is good she eventually listened to concerns regarding that and withdrew the signature, she did not sign it in ignorance.

Of course. As in of course I knew. And I hear you. We all conspire, make excuses in the name of art. Gauguin comes to mind. But not Rolf Harris. Great art is a form of shamanism and shamans are dangerous, indulged, their magic is 'worth' the risk. As it is in religion from top to bottom.

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Love wins

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Gee D
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Not in any way support for him or what he is said to have done, is this really the story that should be making the lead articles in so many papers here and in the US. Something for page 5, but not taking up most of page 1.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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L'organist
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posted by Ohher
quote:
L'organist: first, people who act these days are actors, just as poets are poets (not poetesses), and flight attendants are flight attendants (and not stewardesses). Second, I think you have some profound misunderstandings of the acting profession. Having (long ago and far away) been an actor myself for 8-10 years, perhaps you’d appreciate some enlightenment.
1. I have thespians in the family: the male refers to himself as an actor; the 2 female self-refer as actress.

2. I think I have a reasonable understanding of the acting profession: true, not an actor myself but 2 thespians in the family have (between them) BAFTA awards, nominations for golden globe and academy awards, and direct experience of film-making on both sides of the atlantic, appearing in films that have been produced or distributed by the Weinstein organsiation.

On a general note, I have not suggested that any of the female thespians accusing Weinstein of sexual assault, etc, are lying: I have suggested that they might have found it possible to speak out earlier. Since it now appears that "rumours" about Mr Weinstein had been persistent within the film industry for years, it seems even more remarkable that some at least of the women who are now coming out of the woodwork didn't discuss the situation with others and manage to bring this to wider attention earlier.

No, I'm not suggesting that using bullying and unwanted sexual advances is specific to men - anyone old enough to remember Steven Spielberg being interviewed about his directorial debut with Joan Crawford will remember him speaking about her "way" with young male actors, directors, etc. And going further back, it was common knowledge why the Hollywood High School gridiron team head the nickname "Trojans".

Gwyneth Paltrow: launched her "lifestyle" blog - later company - Goop 9 years ago: it is through this that she opines about vaginal-steaming. Her agent has in the past been at pains to underline that views expressed by Paltrow on Goop are nothing whatsoever to do with them so I think it safe to assume this is not something that Paltrow is being forced into.

I have never, and would never, suggest that any actress was a hussy, shameless or otherwise: I have merely said that it is strange that people who make a career out of conquering nerves, stage-fright, etc, have seemed unable (individually or in a group) to even hint at the stuff that is now coming out.

As luck would have it I met the most successful family thesp for a meal yesterday and brought up the Weinstein subject: they said it was an "open secret" about his behaviour, had been for years, and that his UK agent warned females they represent about tendencies - which female thesp confirmed.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Doc Tor
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L'Organist - you might be backtracking a bit, but you're still blaming the victims (for not doing x, y, z) rather than Weinstein.

It's really not edifying.

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Forward the New Republic

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It's really not edifying.

That's a really nice way of putting it.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Callan
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Originally posted by l'Organist:

quote:
I have never, and would never, suggest that any actress was a hussy, shameless or otherwise: I have merely said that it is strange that people who make a career out of conquering nerves, stage-fright, etc, have seemed unable (individually or in a group) to even hint at the stuff that is now coming out.
I have learned to overcome nerves and stage fright and I have put my career on the line on the grounds that standing up for what you believe in is generally more interesting than sucking up to mediocrities (and on other occasions failed to do that) and I can tell you that the second requires vastly greater reserves of courage than the former because the stakes are so much higher. Absolutely, it would have been better if people had come forward earlier, but when I see people being attacked for coming forward I can see why they might have hesitated.

Lambasting the character of the witness for the prosecution is the job of a good advocate for the defence - as Macaulay noted, in law it is acceptable to do for a guinea, what, in private life would be infamous to do for an Empire - but in the real world the witness for the prosecution may only have volunteered their information sluggishly, and may be open to criticism on other grounds, but in this context they are not the bad guys.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Brenda Clough
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An account in the Post about why women feel obliged to tolerate abuse.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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cliffdweller
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Ohher: [Overused]

Hula: [Votive]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
An account in the Post about why women feel obliged to tolerate abuse.

Excellent article. Thank you.

[ 13. October 2017, 14:09: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Eutychus
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I have just got back from an interpreting job for a conference on the portrayal of diversity in sports journalism. After two days of listening to impassioned pleas for inclusion of minorities and better gender balance, featuring amongst others what I can only describe as a shrill feminist, the last evening's panel included a well-known national star sports commentator.

In the course of the evening he made an extremely unsavoury comment about a younger fellow panel member and professional sportswoman. I was expecting uproar. The target simply looked at her shoes, most of the male half of the audience laughed, neither the chair nor the organisers said a word and his boss, who was within my line of sight, didn't even look up from his phone.

Rarely do my scruples impact my translating, but this was one of those times ("that was his idea of a joke" is what I eventually came up with).

Rarely have I felt so ashamed of my sex, or realised so keenly how that feminist had ended up becoming so shrill (if she'd been there that evening I think there would have been blood, but even now I wonder as she is probably quite keen to keep her regular TV appearances).

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
I liked the article and read about three quarters of the comments. What did concern me, and if anyone made this point then I missed it, was that in the embedded piece about thinking of women as a tough (though apparently easy going bloke) all of the women pictured were young and good looking. (I think they were all white too, but I may be wrong about that).

I looked, but did not see that embedded bit. Could you link it, please?
quote:

No one said older women, plain women or overweight women get abused and raped as well, that it is not only the clothes a woman is wearing that have no bearing on whether or not she is raped, her age and what she looks like are not a factor. Babies are raped and Grandmothers are raped.

This story is about Hollywood. Youth and beauty are its cult and the measure by which women are measured. This is not to say anyone in the film industry never abuses outside of those parameters, but they are the natural targets within film. If you are not young and pretty (and typically white) you will find few opportunities. Rather, few of the already fewer opportunities.

quote:

Rape is about power.

Rape is about power, yes. But that does not preclude the possibility of preference nor cultural influence. And film culture is about beauty, for women.

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
1. I have thespians in the family: the male refers to himself as an actor; the 2 female self-refer as actress.

Dollars to doughnuts they are old. This is not an insult, but things were different in the past and not everyone moves forward.
quote:

2. I think I have a reasonable understanding of the acting profession: true, not an actor myself but 2 thespians in the family have (between them)

Knowing people who do something means you understand everything about what they do? Jesus, then I have a reasonable understanding of nuclear physics, aeronautics, cardiology, etc. Hell, I could be a CEO.*
Even if you mind-meld and completely understand exactly what they know, all you are certain of is their experience and impressions.
What about all the people, in the industry who say differently?

*Hint for the slow, I truly could not.
quote:

On a general note, I have not suggested that any of the female thespians accusing Weinstein of sexual assault, etc, are lying: I have suggested that they might have found it possible to speak out earlier.

Read Brenda's link, about industry people with commentc by industry people.


quote:

Gwyneth Paltrow: launched her "lifestyle" blog - later company - Goop 9 years ago: it is through this that she opines about vaginal-steaming. Her agent has in the past been at pains to underline that views expressed by Paltrow on Goop are nothing whatsoever to do with them so I think it safe to assume this is not something that Paltrow is being forced into.

Who gives a fuck? None of this has anything to do with sexual abuse or rape.
quote:

I have never, and would never, suggest that any actress was a hussy, shameless or otherwise: I have merely said that it is strange that people who make a career out of conquering nerves, stage-fright, etc, have seemed unable (individually or in a group) to even hint at the stuff that is now coming out.

You know, some of the worst liars I know are actors. There are things which seem similar but are not. Sexual abuse isn't about being nervous. Complaining about it is a career killer nearly everywhere, but especially in Hollywood. In Hollywood, you can lose a job by not answering your mobile fast enough. (This is literally true) If you are labelled "difficult" jobs dry up and calling out sexual abuse of the powerful is a difficult as it gets.
quote:

As luck would have it I met the most successful family thesp for a meal yesterday and brought up the Weinstein subject: they said it was an "open secret" about his behaviour, had been for years, and that his UK agent warned females they represent about tendencies - which female thesp confirmed.

Some people knew, I am sure. This is not the same as everybody knowing.
And, once again, POWER. Power buys silence and complicity. And women are most at the mercy of remaining in the good graces of the powerful. Everywhere, but especially in film.

When women here have repeatedly said how difficult reporting sexual abuse is anywhere, and it fucking is, why do you think it is so much easier in a fickle profession like acting?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
1. I have thespians in the family: the male refers to himself as an actor; the 2 female self-refer as actress.

Dollars to doughnuts they are old. This is not an insult, but things were different in the past and not everyone moves forward.

I live in LaLa Land and attend a church where about 70% of the congregation is "in the industry". I don't know of any female thespian of any age-- and I know a bunch from B-list to D-list-- who refers to herself as an "actress". "Actor" has been the norm for years. And, yes, actress sounds as dated as stewardess and waitress. And reminds me of one of my clueless students who asked if female clergy were called "priestess".

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I don't know of any female thespian of any age-- and I know a bunch from B-list to D-list-- who refers to herself as an "actress". "Actor" has been the norm for years.

I am under the impression that this change in vocabulary happened in Hollywood rather earlier than it did in the UK. (AIUI, the Guardian style guide said use "actor" in 2010, and a number of female household names prefer "actress".)
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I don't know of any female thespian of any age-- and I know a bunch from B-list to D-list-- who refers to herself as an "actress". "Actor" has been the norm for years.

I am under the impression that this change in vocabulary happened in Hollywood rather earlier than it did in the UK. (AIUI, the Guardian style guide said use "actor" in 2010, and a number of female household names prefer "actress".)
Given the percentage of British film actors who do a significant amount of work for US productions, there is less difference than there used to be.

[ 13. October 2017, 19:26: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Doc Tor
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Because this is what's important here... [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
A few years ago I heard from a very reliable source some scandalous information. They told me that the chief of a Christian international development charity was well known for going abroad to abuse children. I was also told that this was not a unique situation and that there were a number of abusive people in similar situations.

I was not, and am not, in a position to follow up this information but as far as I know that individual has never been investigated or denounced for their behaviour.

Of course, it is possible it is all rumour and made-up nonsense, as I said I have no way to verify or investigate it. But it is scarily plausible that it is accurate and that there are abusers who are in these positions of power.

I don't really understand how "conspiracies of silence" continue in these situations or why it takes so long for the lid to blow.

But I can tell you that people who have spoken to me about it are scared shitless about what might happen to them if they talk about it. It appears that everyone is waiting for someone else to break ranks before they come forward with collaborating experiences.

If you have any doubts or concerns whatsoever with anyone or anything, you should raise them.

Best practice in Child Protection and Safeguarding requires this. It is our responsibility to report any concerns and for the professionals to decide whether there is any case to answer: there may be none or our phone call may add significantly to existing evidence of wrongdoing.

Where there is any suspicion it must be raised - indeed you are criminally liable if you fail to report anything that allows significant harm to continue.

But as Mr Cheesy didn’t have anything to go on other than what his mate had told him, I’m not sure this is the case. Safeguarding requires you to report things you’ve seen and your concerns. First hand. Evidence.

It doesn’t require you to report what is, essentially, gossip. However good the source. I would be encouraging my mate to go to the authorities if they know more than they’re letting on. (Reading between the lines, it sounds like they’re hoping Cheesy will do their dirty work for them. Classy)

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
But as Mr Cheesy didn’t have anything to go on other than what his mate had told him, I’m not sure this is the case. Safeguarding requires you to report things you’ve seen and your concerns. First hand. Evidence.

It doesn’t require you to report what is, essentially, gossip. However good the source. I would be encouraging my mate to go to the authorities if they know more than they’re letting on. (Reading between the lines, it sounds like they’re hoping Cheesy will do their dirty work for them. Classy)

While I doubt that mr cheesy is required to report what they've been told, doing so would certainly accord with advice that I've been given in child protection training - if you're in any doubt report it. If it's worthless it will be ignored. If it forms part of a pattern it may contribute to building enough evidence for something to be investigated. Nobody is ever going to be arrested, lose their job or have their children taken away based on a single second-hand rumour, but it could add to a body of information that might ultimately allow harm to be prevented. Of course YMMV depending on how confident you are in you local child protection arrangements.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Because this is what's important here... [Roll Eyes]

By itself, no. But is part of addressing L’organist’s posts and figures into the antiquated notions of behaviour and decorum which serve to exacerbate the core issue.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
But as Mr Cheesy didn’t have anything to go on other than what his mate had told him, I’m not sure this is the case. Safeguarding requires you to report things you’ve seen and your concerns. First hand. Evidence.

This may be true for Mr. Cheesy, I don't know. It is not true for me, an American schoolteacher. If I have the hint of a whiff of a suspicion that a child is being abused or neglected, I am required by law to report, and could lose my job and face jail time if I don't.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Ian Climacus

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[Tangent]

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Hell, I could be a CEO.*

Please go for the position at my company. I'd love to see you in action... Though possibly not if I were on the receiving end. [Smile]


Back to pot plant ejaculator and his ilk. I'm simply at a loss. The sort of perverted and degradating actions that never should have been acceptable, but as they are in jokes about casting couches I thought the attitudes in the main went out in the 60s.

I don't know what the answer is. And wouldn't dare to suggest to a woman what the solution is. But, assuming it's sane, I'll support whatever action is deemed necessary to get these scum, and all sexual predators, as far away as is possible - getting them the help if they need it and ensuring women are safe which is their right. Disgust is my only reaction to this.

Mousethief: same laws here I believe. Do you find it a tough position, making a call that could, would, lead to investigation? I guess Yes, but I do not know if the thought you may be preventing abuse somehow covers the "it may not be true" aspect. I would find this terribly tough.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Mousethief: same laws here I believe. Do you find it a tough position, making a call that could, would, lead to investigation? I guess Yes, but I do not know if the thought you may be preventing abuse somehow covers the "it may not be true" aspect. I would find this terribly tough.

Thankfully I've never had to make the call. But the thing is, it's the investigators' job to find out what's going on, and whether there's evidence to take to trial or to CPS. Not mine. Mine is just to say, "This is worrying. Will you guys look into it? Maybe I've got it all wrong."

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Brenda Clough
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This, from the Post, is an excellent analysis. This is a difficult and ancient problem, and it'll take a while to fix it.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Ohher
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
But, assuming it's sane, I'll support whatever action is deemed necessary to get these scum, and all sexual predators, as far away as is possible - getting them the help if they need it and ensuring women are safe which is their right. Disgust is my only reaction to this.

With all respect for your good faith and good intentions, which I'm confident of, I think this attitude forms part of the problem.

Broad-scale studies of convicted rapists show that these men tend to be quite (though not exactly) similar to men who are not rapists. Convicted rapists tend to be somewhat younger than the average guy, a bit more impulsive than the average guy, and a little more violent than the average guy. By a "little," I'm talking single-digit percentages.

Bear in mind that (at least a while back when I was researching this) the typical convicted rapist had committed an average of 12 (self-reported) assaults before being arrested for the first time, and had been through multiple trials (I don't now recall the figure, but think it was in the neighborhood of four) before being convicted for the first time.

If we back up and look squarely at these bare facts, we see a couple of things: one, men at the extreme end of the “sexual misbehavior” spectrum (I hope we can agree that rape is extreme sexual misbehavior) just aren’t all that different from ordinary, regular men who would never do such a thing. Two, we see the extraordinary barriers to removing rapists from roaming at large in society. These barriers are formed of multiple factors: the ordinariness of the perpetrators and how like they may seem to jurors’ husbands, sons, fathers, brothers, bosses and friends; the deeply-rooted and widely-held societal and cultural suspicion of women, particularly around sexual matters*; the fact that it’s only fairly recently (at least in US history – 1973) that women could serve on juries in all 50 states; and so on.

If extreme sexual misconduct is committed by men who just don’t stand out much from the rest of their gender – the majority of men who’d be horrified by the very idea of forcing a woman into sex – then perhaps we’re better off not thinking of predators as “scum.” Perhaps we’re better off trying to understand how we shape the men in our culture / society into people who aren’t all that different from sexual predators. It’s a profoundly unpleasant, perhaps even scarifying idea, but there it is.

*Please don’t repeat to me the bullcrap that rape is about power. I am a rape survivor, have worked with many rape survivors, and have trained police and emergency room personnel in responding to rape victims, and let me tell you: rape is about power for the rapist. For the victim, who experiences this violent imposition of power in and through her sexual being, rape can also be very much about sex. When we insist that rape is about power, we are defining it solely from the rapist’s viewpoint, and we are excluding and erasing (yet again!) the victim from the equation.

--------------------
From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
A number of people thought the Soviet Union was a liberal construct. The USSR played to this (Potempkin villages anyone?). Eventually people were disabused and gave up the idea. Using this as a club to beat liberals with is really low.

No, what was low was for some prominent Hollywood left-wingers, known in the US as liberals, to continue to laud the USSR long after it was evident (ie from about 1917) that far from being a "liberal construct", it was a murderous dictatorship.

Of course not all left-wingers, in Hollywood and elsewhere, were that evil - many left-wingers were and are genuinely liberal.

However some, including in Hollywood, were that stupid and hypocritical, so it is hardly surprising to find Hollywood "liberals" today practising hypocrisy in the sexual as well as the political spheres.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And to take you logic to its logical completion, all conservatives are Hitlerphiles longing for a fourth Reich.

It ill behoves anyone with such a monumental capacity for incomprehension to talk about logic.

Neither I nor anyone else has claimed that all left-wingers (in Hollywood or anywhere else)were or are illiberal sycophants of communist dictators.

There is a proud tradition of left-wing liberalism, best represented by George Orwell.

It is moronic to suggest that all conservatives are closet fascists, and likewise no-one with a brain cell (to borrow an expression at random) is suggesting that all liberals are left-wing, or that all left-wingers are stooges of Stalinism - but some were, some of them were in Hollywood, and their hypocrisy is mirrored in the hypocrisy currently being exposed in their ideological descendants, albeit in the context of a different issue.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And to take you logic to its logical completion, all conservatives are Hitlerphiles longing for a fourth Reich.

It ill behoves anyone with such a monumental capacity for incomprehension to talk about logic.
Warm in here.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Ian Climacus

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Thanks Ohher for the correction.

"Scum" was a visceral reaction to what these men put women, and any men, through. I agree it could cause them to be seen as "the other", when in reality they share the same DNA as me. It was not my intent. Apologies.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And to take you logic to its logical completion, all conservatives are Hitlerphiles longing for a fourth Reich.

It ill behoves anyone with such a monumental capacity for incomprehension to talk about logic.


Not reading your own posts, I see. When you use phrases such "liberal hypocrisy" you are tarring all liberals unless you qualify the phrase. And, since you finally did by saying "some" then it is idiotic to even say "liberal hypocrisy". The more correct terminology would be simply hypocrisy by itself. Because that is what it is. And it is the same hypocrisy that operates in conservatives and moderates as well as lefties.
And, anyone with a single functioning braincell would discern that my comment on conservatives was an attempt to show you how ridiculous your comment on liberals was.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:


*Please don’t repeat to me the bullcrap that rape is about power. I am a rape survivor, have worked with many rape survivors, and have trained police and emergency room personnel in responding to rape victims, and let me tell you: rape is about power for the rapist.

I’m confused. Because this is exactly how I mean the usage and it is the same for every other victim I know and the same for most others who speak of rape and other abuses.
quote:

For the victim, who experiences this violent imposition of power in and through her sexual being, rape can also be very much about sex.

Agreed.
quote:

When we insist that rape is about power, we are defining it solely from the rapist’s viewpoint, and we are excluding and erasing (yet again!) the victim from the equation.

Not how I see it. Talking about rape being about power is about removing guilt from the victim, not erasing the victim. It is about putting the responsibility solely on the rapist or abuser.
I’m not telling you how to feel or interpret anything, however. No one has the right to tell a victim this, not even another victim.

[ 14. October 2017, 04:52: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
But, assuming it's sane, I'll support whatever action is deemed necessary to get these scum, and all sexual predators, as far away as is possible - getting them the help if they need it and ensuring women are safe which is their right. Disgust is my only reaction to this.

With all respect for your good faith and good intentions, which I'm confident of, I think this attitude forms part of the problem.

Broad-scale studies of convicted rapists show that these men tend to be quite (though not exactly) similar to men who are not rapists. Convicted rapists tend to be somewhat younger than the average guy, a bit more impulsive than the average guy, and a little more violent than the average guy. By a "little," I'm talking single-digit percentages.

Bear in mind that (at least a while back when I was researching this) the typical convicted rapist had committed an average of 12 (self-reported) assaults before being arrested for the first time, and had been through multiple trials (I don't now recall the figure, but think it was in the neighborhood of four) before being convicted for the first time.

If we back up and look squarely at these bare facts, we see a couple of things: one, men at the extreme end of the “sexual misbehavior” spectrum (I hope we can agree that rape is extreme sexual misbehavior) just aren’t all that different from ordinary, regular men who would never do such a thing. Two, we see the extraordinary barriers to removing rapists from roaming at large in society. These barriers are formed of multiple factors: the ordinariness of the perpetrators and how like they may seem to jurors’ husbands, sons, fathers, brothers, bosses and friends; the deeply-rooted and widely-held societal and cultural suspicion of women, particularly around sexual matters*; the fact that it’s only fairly recently (at least in US history – 1973) that women could serve on juries in all 50 states; and so on.

If extreme sexual misconduct is committed by men who just don’t stand out much from the rest of their gender – the majority of men who’d be horrified by the very idea of forcing a woman into sex – then perhaps we’re better off not thinking of predators as “scum.” Perhaps we’re better off trying to understand how we shape the men in our culture / society into people who aren’t all that different from sexual predators. It’s a profoundly unpleasant, perhaps even scarifying idea, but there it is.

*Please don’t repeat to me the bullcrap that rape is about power. I am a rape survivor, have worked with many rape survivors, and have trained police and emergency room personnel in responding to rape victims, and let me tell you: rape is about power for the rapist. For the victim, who experiences this violent imposition of power in and through her sexual being, rape can also be very much about sex. When we insist that rape is about power, we are defining it solely from the rapist’s viewpoint, and we are excluding and erasing (yet again!) the victim from the equation.

Some really helpful insights here.

My own experience serving on a jury for a rape trial (admittedly years ago) resonates with this. Definitely the "normalness" of the perp was a barrier to getting to a guilty verdict, even tho the evidence was pretty incontrovertible. In his own mind, what he was doing wasn't rape (because victim consented to kissing and fondling). Years later, my ex was convicted of an even more heinous sex crime involving a minor. The surprising thing was how convinced he was his testimony ("explanation" in his words) would exonerate him, when in fact it was the reverse, proving his guilt-- as was the case with the perp in the rape trial I served on. And yet, the normalization of these horrible behaviors by the perps can be surprisingly (and heartbreakingly) persuasive.

Interestingly, the hold outs on the jury in the rape trial I served on were women. It took a lot of effort, going over the testimony and physical evidence over and over, to persuade them that rape was precisely what the perp had described. There was a strong (and again, horrifying) desire to punish the victim, who did use some very poor judgment). I finally had to ask with some exasperation: you don't think getting raped was punishment enough for a few foolish choices?

I think it has something to do with our own mental defense mechanisms and what we have to tell ourselves in order to feel safe as we go about our daily lives. Because the alternative can be quite terrifying

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Brenda Clough
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Yes, it's psychologically very important for us to believe that It Can't Happen To Me. The same impulse inspires harshness to food stamp recipients and homeless people, the comments like "Get a job!"

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

Interestingly, the hold outs on the jury in the rape trial I served on were women. It took a lot of effort, going over the testimony and physical evidence over and over, to persuade them that rape was precisely what the perp had described. There was a strong (and again, horrifying) desire to punish the victim,

People truly suck, we are a contemptible species.

quote:

I think it has something to do with our own mental defense mechanisms and what we have to tell ourselves in order to feel safe as we go about our daily lives. Because the alternative can be quite terrifying

One is far more likely to be injured by a car¹ than be raped and yet people motor away because they think they have control.
Pretending a victim had some responsibility alleviates some of the fear because they would never do something that "encourages" rape.


¹UK, US

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Ohher
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

One is far more likely to be injured by a car¹ than be raped and yet people motor away because they think they have control.
Pretending a victim had some responsibility alleviates some of the fear because they would never do something that "encourages" rape.


¹UK, US

Loss of control is a major issue for most of the survivors I've worked with. It's a tricky issue; feeling that we have control over ourselves and our lives may be an illusion, but it's an important and valuable one. In a world where we actually have little control over significant aspects of our lives (the company relocates our job to China, natural disasters lay waste to the home that represents decades of our life's work, etc.), this illusion of control is all that enables many of us to get out of bed in the morning.

It's common -- almost universal, in my experience -- that rape survivors' recovery begins with re-asserting this sense of control, and often the first steps include a scrutiny of some version of "What should I have done, worn, said, etc. differently?" It's a mistake, IMO, to derail this scrutiny out of concern over the victims' frequent self-blame early in the process. What really needs to happen, to help her re-assert her sense of autonomy, is for her to come to that understanding (with gentle guidance from helpers) on her own. Just telling the survivor "It's not your fault" too early in the recovery process is something she sometimes hears as "There's nothing you could have done, and nothing anyone can ever do" -- and that could lead to her giving up, interfering with regaining her sense of autonomy.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Brenda Clough
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Another culpable party is the media empire. Journalists uncovered this evil and wrote about it, but the higher-ups would spike the story. The NYT and the New Yorker were the folks who brought this to light this time.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:

It's common -- almost universal, in my experience -- that rape survivors' recovery begins with re-asserting this sense of control, and often the first steps include a scrutiny of some version of "What should I have done, worn, said, etc. differently?" It's a mistake, IMO, to derail this scrutiny out of concern over the victims' frequent self-blame early in the process. What really needs to happen, to help her re-assert her sense of autonomy, is for her to come to that understanding (with gentle guidance from helpers) on her own. Just telling the survivor "It's not your fault" too early in the recovery process is something she sometimes hears as "There's nothing you could have done, and nothing anyone can ever do" -- and that could lead to her giving up, interfering with regaining her sense of autonomy.

Once again, truly helpful insights that wouldn't have occurred to me. I suspect these insights were hard-won, but I appreciate how they have enriched your ministry, and hopefully mine/ours as well. Thank you.


[Votive]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And, since you finally did by saying "some" then it is idiotic to even say "liberal hypocrisy".

What is idiotic is to pretend to fail to grasp that in this context it is liberal hypocrisy in particular which is under discussion.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And, since you finally did by saying "some" then it is idiotic to even say "liberal hypocrisy".

What is idiotic is to pretend to fail to grasp that in this context it is liberal hypocrisy in particular which is under discussion.
It is hypocrisy plain and simple. Labelling it liberal is either trolling or stupid.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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