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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Harvey Weinstein and Liberal Hyposcrisy
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Huia:
[qb]I liked the article and read about three quarters of the comments. What did concern me, and if anyone made this point then I missed it, was that in the embedded piece about thinking of women as a tough (though apparently easy going bloke) all of the women pictured were young and good looking. (I think they were all white too, but I may be wrong about that).
I looked, but did not see that embedded bit. Could you link it, please?
quote:
No one said older women, plain women or overweight women get abused and raped as well, that it is not only the clothes a woman is wearing that have no bearing on whether or not she is raped, her age and what she looks like are not a factor. Babies are raped and Grandmothers are raped.
LilBuddah, Sorry I've used up my access to the WP, but the link in the article wasn't talking about actors and movie people, but workmates, not all of whom are beautiful, hence my comment.
Huia
[ 15. October 2017, 03:06: Message edited by: Huia ]
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
One is far more likely to be injured by a car¹ than be raped and yet people motor away because they think they have control.
Pretending a victim had some responsibility alleviates some of the fear because they would never do something that "encourages" rape.
It is a natural response to think "how could this have been prevented?" when something bad happens. Partly it's the fear alleviation that you describe, partly it's a desire to learn from experience.
Consider an accident investigation in the workplace. Some people investigate with the goal of blaming a particular worker - look at that, he did something wrong, that caused the problem, he should be fired.
This blame response is generally not sensible. People make mistakes, stuff happens - the correct response is to find the flaw in the system that allowed a small error to have a major response, and not get corrected.
How does that apply to personal safety and crime prevention? I think it probably does if you think about criminals as a random environmental feature, but I confess I haven't completely thought this through.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
LilBuddah, Sorry I've used up my access to the WP, but the link in the article wasn't talking about actors and movie people, but workmates, not all of whom are beautiful, hence my comment.
Huia
Brenda's link that you referenced wasn't to the Washington Post and I couldn't find the one that was, so I cannot comment on that article.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
News crawler on TV said Weinstein's been expelled from the academy that manages the Oscars.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And, since you finally did by saying "some" then it is idiotic to even say "liberal hypocrisy".
What is idiotic is to pretend to fail to grasp that in this context it is liberal hypocrisy in particular which is under discussion.
I have no idea whether Weinstein's erstwhile lawyers were 'liberal' or not. That might be an avenue you wish to explore.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is hypocrisy plain and simple.
To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, the truth is rarely plain and never simple.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is hypocrisy plain and simple.
To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, the truth is rarely plain and never simple.
Unfortunately, some of those who quote him are both.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And, since you finally did by saying "some" then it is idiotic to even say "liberal hypocrisy".
What is idiotic is to pretend to fail to grasp that in this context it is liberal hypocrisy in particular which is under discussion.
A couple thoughts on the Weinstein story so far. One of the more disturbing facets of the public reaction to the various revelations is that from conservative ideologues. Most people regard this as a story about a man (ab)using his wealth and power to be sexual predator and to cover up his actions after the fact. It seems a fairly clear illustration of the obstacles facing women in the workplace and the kind of entitled impunity that seems to come with wealth and power. When you listen to conservatives, however, the only reason this story is significant is because it shows liberals are hypocrites. Not because sexual abuse is wrong, or the way half of the American labor force is kept in line through fear and tacit intimidation, but because it can be used for political point scoring. Sexual abuse, in and of itself, seems unobjectionable to these sorts unless it can be used to serve a political agenda. It's hard not to conclude from all this that conservatives don't really care about workplace sexual abuse in and of itself.
A good illustration of this comes from Gregg Jarrett of Fox News, who argues that the Weinstein company should close its doors because of the revelations about one of its founders. It seems a bit over the top from someone writing a column for a company that was essentially run as a petting zoo for sexual predators under Roger Ailes. I'm not a bit fan of whataboutism, but I am a fan of internal consistency.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It's almost as if the conservatives are trying desperately to distract our attention away from sexual abuse by putting up the smokescreen of partisan bickering. Get them taking about anything but the real issue, they must be saying. It is working, at least in some circles.
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, the truth is rarely plain and never simple.
"That's deep. You know they have a section for people like you in the Reader's Digest." --Arthur Dent
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
There's also a heaping cupful of their favorite flavoring, "For me and not you." I get to grope pussy and brag about it, you get impeached. Sexual predators who support me are persecuted victims, those who support you not show that the entire lot of you are moral cripples. And so on.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Seems to me that this dreadful situation and the perfectly correct condemnation of the crimes of this man is but a symptom of a promiscuous and immoral culture.
When the news broke, how many of us asked, "Well, who'd have thought...?'
Sunset Boulevard put its well:
Dreams are not enough to win a war
Out here they're always keeping score
Beneath the tan the battle rages
Smile a rented smile, fill someone's glass
Kiss someone's wife, kiss someone's ass
We do whatever pays the wages
Seems to me that Weinstein is the one out of so many who act this way but he was 'stupid enough to get caught.'
I wonder how many other 'casting directors' are having sleepless nights at the moment, thinking that because they have lived by the sword they will all soon die by the sword.
I am getting heartily sick of the coverage of this case in the media; my theory is that it's all about transferred guilt. They are all guilty of this stuff to one degree or another but when someone gets caught they all turn and shriek about him because they are also guilty and he has become their scapegoat.
We cannot expect to promote and enjoy immorality and promiscuity and then complain when someone takes it a bit too far.
They are all hypocrites.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
.. We cannot expect to promote and enjoy immorality and promiscuity and then complain when someone takes it a bit too far. ...
Sexual assault is not "taking it too far", it's assault. Threatening somebody's job isn't "taking it too far", it's harassment and bullying.
(And it's the second time I've pointed out the distinction on this thread. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) )
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Seems to me that this dreadful situation and the perfectly correct condemnation of the crimes of this man is but a symptom of a promiscuous and immoral culture.
Wow, this is a blindingly stupid statement. Blaming sexual attitudes you do not like for sexual assault. This is exactly the same reasoning as saying the victim deserved it because her dress was too short.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Mudfrog, I was sexually assaulted in my home when I was 17. Please explain how this was due to promiscuity being taken 'a bit too far' rather than what it actually was - a crime against a vulnerable teenager.
It's attitudes like yours that are the reason why women don't come forward for fear of being blamed. Sexual assault and rape are crimes that are solely the blame of those who commit those crimes. They are crimes of power, not sexual attraction (eg heterosexual men who abuse other men despite no sexual attraction to them).
If crimes against men were being revealed then nobody would be blaming the victims like this. It's just more examples of how much people hate women, and it's sickening. I don't know a single woman who hasn't been sexually harassed, assaulted, or raped - it is incredibly common. It goes unreported because of attitudes like L'Organist's and Mudfrog's, because people will blame anyone but the actual perpetrators. It disturbs me that people who identify as Christians would respond to sexual crimes like this.
[ 16. October 2017, 00:00: Message edited by: Pomona ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
... people will blame anyone but the actual perpetrators. It disturbs me that people who identify as Christians would respond to sexual crimes like this.
Well, they have been blaming Eve for all the shit in the world for millennia.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Seems to me that this dreadful situation and the perfectly correct condemnation of the crimes of this man is but a symptom of a promiscuous and immoral culture.
Wow, this is a blindingly stupid statement. Blaming sexual attitudes you do not like for sexual assault. This is exactly the same reasoning as saying the victim deserved it because her dress was too short.
The other stupid thing about this is that women are routinely assaulted in cultures that aren't promiscuous and immoral.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
To the men (AFAIK) here who've been down-playing sexual assault:
If you're thinking of this as a women's issue, men and boys are sexually assaulted, too. (RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network)). The "Men and Boys Are Also Affected by Sexual Violence" section is about 1/3 of the way down the page. A couple of sections down, there's info on long-term effects on victims.
From the "About Sexual Assault" page on RAINN:
quote:
Every 98 seconds, an American is sexually assaulted.
And every 8 minutes, that victim is a child. Meanwhile, only 6 out of every 1,000 perpetrators will end up in prison.
There's a counter with it.
Re Weinstein:
At the bottom of RAINN's front page, there are links to RAINN's statement about Weinstein, and to info on how Hollywood is responding, too.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Well, they have been blaming Eve for all the shit in the world for millennia.
Something I read once--I think it was a footnote for Genesis in the Scofield Reference Bible--said that Eve was deceived, but Adam knew what he was doing! And AFAIK Scofield was nowhere near being a flaming liberal.
Sorry, but ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) .
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Seems to me that this dreadful situation and the perfectly correct condemnation of the crimes of this man is but a symptom of a promiscuous and immoral culture.
Wow, this is a blindingly stupid statement. Blaming sexual attitudes you do not like for sexual assault. This is exactly the same reasoning as saying the victim deserved it because her dress was too short.
Just a second. I'm not defending Mudfrog's choice of words, but I don't think the idea is quite the same as victim blaming.
I was thinking earlier that Weinstein's admitted actions would not be out of place if it was the plot of a porno.
And therefore it seems at least possible that if there are a group of people in Hollywood who think that they're somehow living the plot of a porno then they might live it out and draw other people into actions that normalise those fictional fantastical scenes. And that a media executive living a porno lifestyle is edgy and exciting rather than creepy and horrible.
And those people may somehow think that somehow someone else who doesn't immediately reject an advance is somehow consenting to whatever comes next.
And it is at least conceivable that there are powerful men who think that they're living in a porno who think that they can get whatever they want - like they could in a porno - and that everyone else around them secretly wants to participate in it.
I'm not sure this thesis is entirely unbelievable, particularly given the closeness that there is between porn and "regular" media.
The two things can be both true at the same time. There might be a group of people who are living this pornification lifestyle in Hollywood, there might also be victims who have been drawn into it leading to damage.
--
What I think is victim-blaming is where we start might talking about slutty promiscuous starlets who who willingly participate in Hollywood orgies but at some point in the future think that there is some kind of advantage to be gained from denouncing "sacrificial" individuals.
That basically seems to be the message coming from some.
But I don't think that is what Mudfrog is saying above.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The other stupid thing about this is that women are routinely assaulted in cultures that aren't promiscuous and immoral.
True, although many of these are certainly affected by access to extremely degrading and violent pornography.
For example in the Middle East, many of the countries have strict cultural barriers to promiscuity and yet are some of the biggest consumers of really nasty pornography.
Of course, correlation is not causation and it would be interesting to see rates of sexual assault in cultures which do not have any access to sexualised media.
The only example I can think of off the top of my head was the ingrained, disgusting generational sexual abuse within the tiny community living on Pitcairn Island.
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think Mudfrog has a point here: quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I am getting heartily sick of the coverage of this case in the media; my theory is that it's all about transferred guilt. They are all guilty of this stuff to one degree or another but when someone gets caught they all turn and shriek about him because they are also guilty and he has become their scapegoat.
I'm pretty sure that at least some of those currently distancing themselves from Weinstein are not doing so because they are genuinely outraged at his behaviour but simply because the whistle being blown means he's damaging to their brand, whatever it is. It's a bottom-line decision, not an ethically motivated one.
Besides, demonising Weinstein is also a way of saying to oneself "well he's clearly a monster and I'm not, so no danger of me behaving like that". In that respect I'm firmly with RuthW's post here.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm pretty sure that at least some of those currently distancing themselves from Weinstein are not doing so because they are genuinely outraged at his behaviour but simply because the whistle being blown means he's damaging to their brand, whatever it is. It's a bottom-line decision, not an ethically motivated one.
Even if that's true (I've absolutely no way to tell if it is or how many people it applies to), I've a hard time thinking that denouncing ongoing degradation of women in Hollywood is ever a bad thing.
Powerful men are maybe going to be thinking twice about whether they can get away with this behaviour and people who are issuing the denouncements are going to have to make sure they don't themselves get in situations in the future which in any sense resemble this behaviour. Surely that's a good thing.
quote:
Besides, demonising Weinstein is also a way of saying to oneself "well he's clearly a monster and I'm not, so no danger of me behaving like that". In that respect I'm firmly with RuthW's post here.
There is a level of this going on I think.
But again, I'm not sure this is really a bad thing either; people are looking at themselves, thinking about things that they've done and reflecting that they're fortunate that it didn't spiral into something resembling the allegations against Weinstein.
I suppose there could be a horrible pack of aggressive men who rape their way around Hollywood who are just putting up a smokescreen to deflect attention away from themselves and towards Weinstein. But in the current climate, I doubt that's going to work for very long.
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arse
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
We cannot expect to promote and enjoy immorality and promiscuity and then complain when someone takes it a bit too far.
You think assault and rape are about taking sex ‘a bit too far’?
What about my case where I was assaulted in the Church kitchen by a local preacher who was well respected, to his dying day, as an ‘upholder of morals’ and very much against promiscuity? Just another hypocrite? - or a sign that any culture - including the Christian Church, is as bad as any other in this respect (sexual assault and rape being perpetrated and ignored).
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
You think assault and rape are about taking sex ‘a bit too far’?
What about my case where I was assaulted in the Church kitchen by a local preacher who was well respected, to his dying day, as an ‘upholder of morals’ and very much against promiscuity? Just another hypocrite? - or a sign that any culture - including the Christian Church, is as bad as any other in this respect (sexual assault and rape being perpetrated and ignored).
That's horrible. What a total bastard.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
But I don't think this is quite what Mudfrog is saying, which is more about a society where sex is freely (non-judgmentally?) available as in the caricature image of Hollywood. I don't think he's in any sense saying that your assault was due to anything you did.
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Powerful men are maybe going to be thinking twice about whether they can get away with this behaviour
I'm really not so sure.
I mentioned upthread my own eyewitness account from last week of an absolutely clear-cut instance of sexual harrassment in front of an audience at a seminar on non-discriminatory practices. The perpetrator either believed himself to be immune or was oblivious. Nobody in the audience or on the panel reacted.
quote:
I suppose there could be a horrible pack of aggressive men who rape their way around Hollywood who are just putting up a smokescreen to deflect attention away from themselves and towards Weinstein. But in the current climate, I doubt that's going to work for very long.
I wish I could be so optimistic. Part of the problem is that this is not about rape as legally defined, it's about a whole attitude to women that is degrading and abusive without necessarily constituting physical assault, or in which the issue of consent is blurred.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm really not so sure.
I mentioned upthread my own eyewitness account from last week of an absolutely clear-cut instance of sexual harrassment in front of an audience at a seminar on non-discriminatory practices. The perpetrator either believed himself to be immune or was oblivious. Nobody in the audience or on the panel reacted.
Well OK, if we're going to trade anecdotes, then I happen to know that several large scientific conferences have in recent years had public "acceptable behaviour" statements that participants sign up to and there have been denouncements of things that have been said from the front.
There are things that are changing. It is too slow, these things are still happening without challenge. But there is beginning to be a challenge to the casual misogyny that was an accepted part of male behaviour in some contexts.
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arse
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
We cannot expect to promote and enjoy immorality and promiscuity and then complain when someone takes it a bit too far.
You are literally guilty of forgetting your own history.
Tell us all again how the Salvation Army started in the Victorian age.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
We cannot expect to promote and enjoy immorality and promiscuity and then complain when someone takes it a bit too far.
You are literally guilty of forgetting your own history.
Tell us all again how the Salvation Army started in the Victorian age.
I'm curious to know what you mean by this comment. The Salvation Army started as a reaction against poverty, as far as I understand.
Or are you suggesting that the SA has made a point of complaining about immorality and promiscuity over the years?
The Victorian era had some ingrained anti-poor attitudes, which were reflected in hypocritical attitudes to sex and the ridiculous concepts of the "worthy" and "unworthy" poor. But AFAIU the SA were always about reaching out to the poor and trying to break down these barriers.
But I don't think that's ever stopped them from pointing out, or talking about, general societal ills as they see them.
[ 16. October 2017, 09:20: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There are things that are changing. It is too slow, these things are still happening without challenge. But there is beginning to be a challenge to the casual misogyny that was an accepted part of male behaviour in some contexts.
Yes, change is slow and rarely comes from the top.
But the good news is that this latest episode has got everyone talking about the subject, just as the saville case brought child abuse into general conversation.
Whether the perpetrators recognise themselves in these conversations is another question.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The Victorian era is synonymous with promoting sexual morality and continence. The Sally Ann started in the East End of London in the mid-late 1800s.
I'm pretty certain most people can join the dots on this, but if it needs spelling out, so be it.
It doesn't matter what 'society promotes'. The powerful will always exploit the weak, be it financially or sexually. Mudfrog blaming current sexual mores for the Weinsteins of this world is blaming the wrong cause.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It doesn't matter what 'society promotes'. The powerful will always exploit the weak, be it financially or sexually. Mudfrog blaming current sexual mores for the Weinsteins of this world is blaming the wrong cause.
I see. So one can't talk about one's own perception of societal ills with respect to sexual norms and freedoms and the results of the same; but at the same time one can legitimately talk about (for example) attitudes to debt, gambling, the housing crisis, buy-to-let etc and the results of the same.
It seems to me that the general pornification of society is a very good target for the cause of Weinstein and deeply troubling attitudes to women. I don't see why it is that you don't want that conversation to happen.
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arse
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It doesn't matter what 'society promotes'. The powerful will always exploit the weak, be it financially or sexually. Mudfrog blaming current sexual mores for the Weinsteins of this world is blaming the wrong cause.
I see. So one can't talk about one's own perception of societal ills with respect to sexual norms and freedoms and the results of the same; but at the same time one can legitimately talk about (for example) attitudes to debt, gambling, the housing crisis, buy-to-let etc and the results of the same.
It seems to me that the general pornification of society is a very good target for the cause of Weinstein and deeply troubling attitudes to women. I don't see why it is that you don't want that conversation to happen.
Because while it's part of the conversation, it's not the conversation we actually need to be having, which is the attitude of men towards the sexual availability of women.
The conversations I've had with my mother - she's 81 - about her time working in a printing firm in London before she had kids... of having to go to the toilet in pairs: of having to take the stairs rather than risk getting in a lift: of being protected by a group of older, married men on the train commute in from predatory other men.
None of this had anything to do with porn. Take it back another thirty years, pre-war. Nothing to do with porn. Or another thirty to the turn of the century. Nothing to do with porn. Or another thirty.
Blaming porn is a distraction. Blaming 'the permissive society' is a distraction. Men in power assaulting women has gone on for decades, centuries, millennia. The cause is our attitude - men's attitudes.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Because while it's part of the conversation, it's not the conversation we actually need to be having, which is the attitude of men towards the sexual availability of women.
Disagree. And I don't see why it is that you think that you can determine the conversation that we should be having.
quote:
The conversations I've had with my mother - she's 81 - about her time working in a printing firm in London before she had kids... of having to go to the toilet in pairs: of having to take the stairs rather than risk getting in a lift: of being protected by a group of older, married men on the train commute in from predatory other men.
None of this had anything to do with porn. Take it back another thirty years, pre-war. Nothing to do with porn. Or another thirty to the turn of the century. Nothing to do with porn. Or another thirty.
OK. Not sure what this has to do with this conversation.
quote:
Blaming porn is a distraction. Blaming 'the permissive society' is a distraction. Men in power assaulting women has gone on for decades, centuries, millennia. The cause is our attitude - men's attitudes.
I don't think it is a distraction. It is a distraction when people keep saying that the pornification has nothing to do with anything even when the evidence (from court cases etc) is that it is.
Not everyone who watches porn has engrained misogynist attitudes to women. Not everyone who is promiscuous (which is a stupid and inexact word anyway) is an abuser. Of course not.
But not everyone is able to compartmentalise their fantasies and not everyone is able to live in such a way as to keep the attitudes they see in porn as a fantasy on the screen rather than letting it seep into their lives.
There are a group of men who want to live as if they're a living embodiment of a porn movie. Young people are measuring their relationships against the "norms" they see in porn movies.
Whether one can "join the dots" and link these things to the rape-y attitudes amongst movie executives is a legitimate conversation to be having, whether or not you like it.
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arse
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
Last week I was a guest at a dinner with an influential politician and a number of influential people in my profession. The invitation was in the gift of a senior professional I had met once previously. After dinner, we were shepherded on for drinks at a secluded classy pub, where an area had been booked and expensive wine was on ice when we arrived. Senior professional wouldn't hear no when I refused more drink but kept topping up my glass. He made references to the sexual attractiveness of the other women present. When I finally managed to extricate myself saying that I had to take my children to school in the morning, he made an explicit sexual remark to me. I kept the fixed smile on my face, thanked him again and left.
Four days later I told my husband about it. Even then, I preceded the story with "Please don't tell anyone...." and followed it with "I know it isn't serious but...."
I'm 43 years old, relatively well known in my field. Why am *I* the one who feels slightly grubby and ashamed?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
The conversations I've had with my mother - she's 81 - about her time working in a printing firm in London before she had kids... of having to go to the toilet in pairs: of having to take the stairs rather than risk getting in a lift: of being protected by a group of older, married men on the train commute in from predatory other men.
None of this had anything to do with porn. Take it back another thirty years, pre-war. Nothing to do with porn. Or another thirty to the turn of the century. Nothing to do with porn. Or another thirty.
OK. Not sure what this has to do with this conversation.
I think it's fairly clear - harassment of this sort was quite common prior to the widespread availability of porn.
Here's a thought - what if porn was an acting out of fantasies built on harassment rather than the other way around?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I think it's fairly clear - harassment of this sort was quite common prior to the widespread availability of porn.
Harassment was. But I've not see much evidence that the types of things that Weinstein has admitted (never mind those other things he's been accused of) were. Have you?
quote:
Here's a thought - what if porn was an acting out of fantasies built on harassment rather than the other way around?
Seems to me that's a fair point and another reason why this is a discussion to have rather than try to shut down.
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arse
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
There is a culture in Hollywood which enables sexual abuse. But it isn’t a culture of promiscuity. It is a culture where a woman’s worth and saleability depend heavily on (a) her physical attractiveness and (b) her willingness to take her clothes off.
Such hypocrisy as there is lies in acting surprised that women in Hollywood are reduced to the level of sexual commodities. Harvey Weinstein made his career out of women getting their kit off. What wasn’t known was how far it went.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I'm 43 years old, relatively well known in my field. Why am *I* the one who feels slightly grubby and ashamed?
Perhaps because it's possible not only for a professional woman to have such nasty experiences in this day and age, but also post them on a discussion form where it's reasonable to expect some sympathetic response, and yet get totally ignored by two guys having a discussion about a tangent only distantly related to her nasty experience.
I'm sorry, Erroneous Monk. And FWIW, I think it is serious, especially if you'll be crossing paths often with this creep in the future.
Your "grubby" reaction, by the way, is exactly why I object to claiming assault is about power. That's the assaulter's take, and it ignores victims' experience. Victims are forced into questioning whether their experience, their very selves, have any reality.
My sympathies.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Originally posted by Doc Tor: quote:
The conversations I've had with my mother - she's 81 - about her time working in a printing firm in London before she had kids... of having to go to the toilet in pairs: of having to take the stairs rather than risk getting in a lift: of being protected by a group of older, married men on the train commute in from predatory other men.
None of this had anything to do with porn. Take it back another thirty years, pre-war. Nothing to do with porn. Or another thirty to the turn of the century. Nothing to do with porn. Or another thirty.
OK. Not sure what this has to do with this conversation.
Then I can't help you. I don't think anyone can.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
As an assault survivor I am glad of the Weinstein coverage shining a light on it.
Porn is connected to assault and rape, not the other way around. Anything else is victim blaming when assault and rape has been happening for as long as humans have existed. It is a symptom of the patriarchy alongside porn, not derived from it.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
and yet get totally ignored by two guys having a discussion about a tangent only distantly related to her nasty experience.
As it happens I only saw that particular post after making my own post as it was made during the time I started my reply and before I completed it.
I read it - so in that sense I acknowledged it. I think those kinds of incidents remain far too common - and have always been prevalent as Doc'Tor's post makes clear - and to try and point the finger at some factor in modern society comes dangerously close to excusing them (in the way that Weinstein claiming he was a 'sex addict' attempted to).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
Thanks, Pomona. Porn exists because the children and women depicted are considered "not quite human."
Sexual assault exists because its victims are considered "not quite human."
Sexual harassment exists because its victims are considered "not quite human."
Rape exists because its victims are considered "not quite human."
Chris Stiles: thanks for explaining your PoV. Do you see, though, how this might be experienced by the poster? She cannot know your thoughts or reactions unless you make those visible here. And the fact is that EM's "senior" is ignoring her professional status, ignoring the norms which govern relations between work colleagues, and ignoring her reality. This makes it crucially important that those interacting with her here not repeat (and thereby, however accidentally, affirm) that behavior.
It apparently took EM 4 days to work through this encounter sufficiently to share it with her husband. That's an indication of how unsettling such encounters can be.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Your "grubby" reaction, by the way, is exactly why I object to claiming assault is about power. That's the assaulter's take, and it ignores victims' experience. Victims are forced into questioning whether their experience, their very selves, have any reality.
My sympathies.
Thank you. I think I feel foolish. I thought I was there on my merits and on my terms when really I was there for someone else's reasons and on their terms.
And I felt sorry for him. Which I'm aware of having felt in the past about other senior figures who have acted inappropriately. As if I would become the aggressor if I simply said "That's totally inappropriate. Never say anything like that to me again."
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I thought I was there on my merits and on my terms when really I was there for someone else's reasons and on their terms.
Exactly: nail, head. You had every reason, given your status as a reputable, contributing professional in your field, to suppose you were there on your merits. In fact, it's likely that you were there on your merits -- though the creep's purpose might have been to pull that rug out from under you.
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
And I felt sorry for him. Which I'm aware of having felt in the past about other senior figures who have acted inappropriately. As if I would become the aggressor if I simply said "That's totally inappropriate. Never say anything like that to me again."
Let's hope he now backs off, permanently. If it happens again, reconsider the "aggressive" approach, assuming it's not derailing a promising career.
BTW, I think (FWIW) the approach above is assertive rather than aggressive. Aggressive would be threatening him with exposure and legal action.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I'm 43 years old, relatively well known in my field. Why am *I* the one who feels slightly grubby and ashamed?
Perhaps because it's possible not only for a professional woman to have such nasty experiences in this day and age, but also post them on a discussion form where it's reasonable to expect some sympathetic response, and yet get totally ignored by two guys having a discussion about a tangent only distantly related to her nasty experience.
I'm sorry, Erroneous Monk. And FWIW, I think it is serious, especially if you'll be crossing paths often with this creep in the future.
Your "grubby" reaction, by the way, is exactly why I object to claiming assault is about power. That's the assaulter's take, and it ignores victims' experience. Victims are forced into questioning whether their experience, their very selves, have any reality.
My sympathies.
Other men know that this person is doing this. And they don't say anything nor do anything. Not knowing ths answers all I can do is say to men everywhere: don't be that guy, who doesn't say something, refuses to play along. Big brave men who don't stop things are major problems. It does not have to be this way. It isn't enough not to do harassment and grope-setup yourself. You have to say to other men and your language needs to be assertive and direct.
There are some other issues with male sexuality and deflecting emotion into sex which I think are also systemic and taught so well that they aren't seen. We just had a sleezebag porno magazine monger die, mostly lionized as a trailblazer. WTF.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
And I felt sorry for him. Which I'm aware of having felt in the past about other senior figures who have acted inappropriately. As if I would become the aggressor if I simply said "That's totally inappropriate. Never say anything like that to me again."
Don't feel sorry for him and don't feel like you are being the aggressor. The behaviour was totally inappropriate and needs to be stopped.
If you can face it, write to his political party and tell them what happened.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Other men know that this person is doing this. And they don't say anything nor do anything. Not knowing ths answers all I can do is say to men everywhere: don't be that guy, who doesn't say something, refuses to play along. Big brave men who don't stop things are major problems. It does not have to be this way. It isn't enough not to do harassment and grope-setup yourself. You have to say to other men and your language needs to be assertive and direct.
Well yes and no.
We don't know for certain that other men know. He might frequently be cut off by other men who don't want to listen to that kind of sexist nonsense and so only does it when he thinks he is a power situation where he can get away with it.
Also women shouldn't need chaparones. This prick needs to stop doing it. Not because he's going to get his face punched in by the next man who hears him disrespecting women, but because nobody wants to hear that shit.
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arse
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
And I felt sorry for him. Which I'm aware of having felt in the past about other senior figures who have acted inappropriately. As if I would become the aggressor if I simply said "That's totally inappropriate. Never say anything like that to me again."
Excellent. Exactly right. Formulate in your mind a response, so that it'll be there, ready to hand, if and when (God forbid) you need it again.
Further upthread Mr. Cheesy said:
'There are a group of men who want to live as if they're a living embodiment of a porn movie. Young people are measuring their relationships against the "norms" they see in porn movies.'
And yet almost all movie viewers clearly discern the difference between, say, Wolverine or James Bond and themselves. They evince no desire to go and stab people through the chest with foot-long blades, or leap from airplanes with guns. You may admire Logan or Bond's adventures, but you can clearly discern that it's a script, a fiction in which the scriptwriter and director have heavily weighted events onto Bond's side. If you yourself tried to run along the top of a rail car holding a Walther PPK you would immediately come to grief, and you know it.
I suggest to you that blaming movies/novels/video games/theater is common (dates back to Socrates), but pretty well proven to be a dead end.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And yet almost all movie viewers clearly discern the difference between, say, Wolverine or James Bond and themselves. They evince no desire to go and stab people through the chest with foot-long blades, or leap from airplanes with guns. You may admire Logan or Bond's adventures, but you can clearly discern that it's a script, a fiction in which the scriptwriter and director have heavily weighted events onto Bond's side. If you yourself tried to run along the top of a rail car holding a Walther PPK you would immediately come to grief, and you know it.
I suggest to you that blaming movies/novels/video games/theater is common (dates back to Socrates), but pretty well proven to be a dead end.
I think porn is different to other kinds of media and cinema. For one thing, watching a lot of violent porn is quite regularly being given as some kind of explanation for sexual attacks in court.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I thought I was there on my merits and on my terms when really I was there for someone else's reasons and on their terms.
Exactly: nail, head. You had every reason, given your status as a reputable, contributing professional in your field, to suppose you were there on your merits. In fact, it's likely that you were there on your merits -- though the creep's purpose might have been to pull that rug out from under you.
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
And I felt sorry for him. Which I'm aware of having felt in the past about other senior figures who have acted inappropriately. As if I would become the aggressor if I simply said "That's totally inappropriate. Never say anything like that to me again."
Let's hope he now backs off, permanently. If it happens again, reconsider the "aggressive" approach, assuming it's not derailing a promising career.
BTW, I think (FWIW) the approach above is assertive rather than aggressive. Aggressive would be threatening him with exposure and legal action.
Aggressive would be threatening violence. Stating clearly what is happening and what the consequences for such actions would be-- exposure and legal action-- is simply truth-telling, which in certain circles is read as "aggression".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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