homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Harvey Weinstein and Liberal Hyposcrisy (Page 4)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Harvey Weinstein and Liberal Hyposcrisy
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
As an assault survivor I am glad of the Weinstein coverage shining a light on it.

Porn is connected to assault and rape, not the other way around. Anything else is victim blaming when assault and rape has been happening for as long as humans have existed. It is a symptom of the patriarchy alongside porn, not derived from it.

I agree with you. There is a lot of theoretical work on patriarchy, and patriarchal attitudes, but I am not sure how far this is percolating into people's consciousness. Well, it is percolating, since women are no longer treated as property, and coverture was ended in English law in the 19th century.

But the sense that women are objects to be manipulated by men, runs deep, I think. I am trying to think that things are getting better, but I'm not sure. The widespread blaming of women over sexual assault is a kind of fresh assault, and we see it going on now over Weinstein.

[ 16. October 2017, 14:46: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9709 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Other men know that this person is doing this. And they don't say anything nor do anything. Not knowing ths answers all I can do is say to men everywhere: don't be that guy, who doesn't say something, refuses to play along. Big brave men who don't stop things are major problems. It does not have to be this way. It isn't enough not to do harassment and grope-setup yourself. You have to say to other men and your language needs to be assertive and direct.


Well yes and no.

We don't know for certain that other men know. He might frequently be cut off by other men who don't want to listen to that kind of sexist nonsense and so only does it when he thinks he is a power situation where he can get away with it.

Also women shouldn't need chaparones. This prick needs to stop doing it. Not because he's going to get his face punched in by the next man who hears him disrespecting women, but because nobody wants to hear that shit.

Am I in some unique world? There's nothing about chaperoning anyone in this. If I hear another older man say "nice ass" about someone he's older enough to be her father, and say nothing, I am guilty of condoning attitude. Nine times out of ten the woman whose ass is said to be nice has no idea it's been said. So I am saying something. And I think all men should.

I think the attitudes and comments are the first link in the chain, and I'll not have such things forged if I can stop it.

Posts: 11188 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
OK
Thanks, first of all to MrCheesy and Eutychus for seeing at least some merit in what I write.

My apologies too for the rather glib phrase about taking it 'a bit too far'. I didn't intend to minimise or trivialise the dreadful actions of the perpetrator of the horrible abuse.

Also, by referring to the culture of promiscuity and immorality, I was NOT trying to implicate the victims in all this, as if it was THEIR immorality; I was hoping you'd read into my comments that it was the evident culture of immorality, perpetrated quite evidently by men in powerful positions - and my critics will need to prove there wasn't that kind of culture - that 'empowered' Weinstein to think that he could get away with his long term activities. My point i born out by the act that for a significant number of years he thought he was getting away with it with the tacit or weak com;laince of people ]around hi who knew, suspected, supported him in what he was doing but who merely turned a blind eye or at most 'had a quiet word with him'.
I heard an interview on the radio this morning that basically said, Oh we didn't like what he was doing so we didn't send much new work his way during the last TEN YEARS!!

That's hardly condemning him, is it?
But then, who is going to condemn him whilst his activities are not publicly known, when some of them are party to it or perhaps involved in stuff in their own lives?

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8134 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It was a very weird experience recently reading the Daily Mail diatribe about liberal hypocrisy on sexual assault, and right next to the online article is the usual DM helpful comments about various female celebrities, and their state of undress. Thus, 'X flaunts her 32FF assets and pert posterior in a VERY skimpy blue bikini, at yoga retreat'.

The article next to this attacks Hollywood superstars for being 'amoral money-grabbing cowards'. Laugh or cry.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9709 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes - and my point was that such abuse goes on just as much where the culture is ‘moral’ and against promiscuity - ie the Church. So it isn’t the culture causing the abuse, the abuse goes on whatever the culture - where people are in positions of power over others and they know they can get away with it.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12749 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

Also, by referring to the culture of promiscuity and immorality, I was NOT trying to implicate the victims in all this, as if it was THEIR immorality;

I understood this right off.
quote:

I was hoping you'd read into my comments that it was the evident culture of immorality, perpetrated quite evidently by men in powerful positions -

And, as has been pointed out several times on this thread, that is humanity across time and culture. But you also added promiscuity, so the criticisms of your other post still stand and this one has done nothing to blunt that.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17135 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Although it's not just men in powerful positions, is it? They may be more visible, but there is probably plenty of hidden abuse and assaults going on by less powerful men. There is still the patriarchal assumption that women are objects, to be used.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9709 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

It doesn't matter what 'society promotes'. The powerful will always exploit the weak, be it financially or sexually. Mudfrog blaming current sexual mores for the Weinsteins of this world is blaming the wrong cause.

I see. So one can't talk about one's own perception of societal ills with respect to sexual norms and freedoms and the results of the same; but at the same time one can legitimately talk about (for example) attitudes to debt, gambling, the housing crisis, buy-to-let etc and the results of the same.

It seems to me that the general pornification of society is a very good target for the cause of Weinstein and deeply troubling attitudes to women. I don't see why it is that you don't want that conversation to happen.

The Salvation Army didn't just complain about individual cases of immorality; it also attacked the culture.

Until a certain date everybody accepted that 13 was the age of consent. Everyone accepted it.
What they didn't know was that because of that legal and cultural norm, something dreadful was occurring, using the age of consent - the tacit approval of the prevailing culture - as a cover.


This is what The Salvation Army did

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8134 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Yes - and my point was that such abuse goes on just as much where the culture is ‘moral’ and against promiscuity - ie the Church. So it isn’t the culture causing the abuse, the abuse goes on whatever the culture - where people are in positions of power over others and they know they can get away with it.

See my latest post above.
The culture is sometimes a screen - and the culture needs to change.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8134 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Salvation Army didn't just complain about individual cases of immorality; it also attacked the culture.

Yes, and I've defended your right to talk about (your perception of) sexual societal ills in this debate.

But that said, you'd agree presumably that there is some distance between "selling girls into prostitution" and the the claim that there is a straight line between a "promiscuous" society and sexual abuse of women.

You would agree that there is no direct connection between modern sexual freedoms that many did not have in 19th century England and the kind of disgusting misogynous rape-y sub-culture we're discussing - would you?

Or are you saying that sexual freedoms are a step towards sexual abuse of women?

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10339 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't think it is a distraction. It is a distraction when people keep saying that the pornification has nothing to do with anything even when the evidence (from court cases etc) is that it is.

The studies I've read indicate that porn ≠ sexual abuse. Violent porn does seem to have a link.
Doc Tor's point about his mum is that she existed in a much less pornicised world and was more likely to be harassed. For your hypothesis to become theory, the sexual harassment incidents would need to increase as "pornification" does. This doesn't appear to be true.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17135 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Salvation Army didn't just complain about individual cases of immorality; it also attacked the culture.

Until a certain date everybody accepted that 13 was the age of consent. Everyone accepted it.
What they didn't know was that because of that legal and cultural norm, something dreadful was occurring, using the age of consent - the tacit approval of the prevailing culture - as a cover.


This is what The Salvation Army did

So now you remember.

To sum up, then. It's not the 'promoting immorality' that's the problem. It's the attitudes of men about women that are, whatever the age.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8938 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't think it is a distraction. It is a distraction when people keep saying that the pornification has nothing to do with anything even when the evidence (from court cases etc) is that it is.

The studies I've read indicate that porn ≠ sexual abuse. Violent porn does seem to have a link.
Doc Tor's point about his mum is that she existed in a much less pornicised world and was more likely to be harassed. For your hypothesis to become theory, the sexual harassment incidents would need to increase as "pornification" does. This doesn't appear to be true.

I was thinking of India, where there has been a wave of assaults and rapes; it seems unlikely that this is because of porn. Some people see it as a backlash by men against a relative degree of female emancipation, but these links are very difficult to demonstrate.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9709 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607

 - Posted      Profile for Ohher   Author's homepage   Email Ohher   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Also, by referring to the culture of promiscuity and immorality, I was NOT trying to implicate the victims in all this, as if it was THEIR immorality;

We got that, I trust. The problem is that -- I speak only for myself, here -- I'm not sure what you mean by "the culture of promiscuity and immorality." I get the sense (and may be quite mistaken) that you're referring to something contemporary. As I look around the landscape, I see any number of sexual misbehaviors I personally disapprove of, and which most people I know also disapprove of -- marital infidelity is one example. Widespread disapproval does not equate to a "culture of promiscuity and immorality."

But as far as I know, marital infidelity is not just a contemporary issue. It's been a concern for at least 6,000 years (about the time writing was invented, so we have some record of people's thoughts and doings). I rather suspect it went on earlier than that.

It's the vagueness of language here that's a problem for me. How is our culture so different, sexually speaking, from the culture of ancient Egypt or Babylon? Or the Victorians? Or the dynasties of medieval China, etc.? As far as I know, most human societies have attempted to regulate human sexual behavior, and most have had somewhat limited success with these efforts.

--------------------
From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

Posts: 282 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

The culture is sometimes a screen - and the culture needs to change.

This fails to address the fact that rape and sexual assault have been a major problem throughout time and in cultures that had the same view on "promiscuity" that you have.
The idea that power = privilege needs to change and the objectification of women need to stop. And no, sexy clothing and non-marital sex are not part of that.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17135 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And many human societies have attempted to regulate female sexuality and women's bodies, and also to use violence against women, hence wife-beating in some cultures. How far does this go back? I don't know, but I suspect thousands of years.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9709 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Damn the blasted time lock. I was going to add that quite respectable societies have been very controlling of women, female sexuality, and women's bodies. Err, the church?

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9709 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was thinking of India, where there has been a wave of assaults and rapes; it seems unlikely that this is because of porn. Some people see it as a backlash by men against a relative degree of female emancipation, but these links are very difficult to demonstrate.

Yes, I did think of India also. My impression is that the current 'wave' owes more to greater awareness than greater incidence, and access to pornographic material pre-Internet would have been very limited - so pornography can't be 'blamed' in that sense for those types of behaviour.
Posts: 3879 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Salvation Army didn't just complain about individual cases of immorality; it also attacked the culture.

Until a certain date everybody accepted that 13 was the age of consent. Everyone accepted it.
What they didn't know was that because of that legal and cultural norm, something dreadful was occurring, using the age of consent - the tacit approval of the prevailing culture - as a cover.


This is what The Salvation Army did

So now you remember.

To sum up, then. It's not the 'promoting immorality' that's the problem. It's the attitudes of men about women that are, whatever the age.

Yes, I don't think I said anything different.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8134 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Also, by referring to the culture of promiscuity and immorality, I was NOT trying to implicate the victims in all this, as if it was THEIR immorality;

We got that, I trust. The problem is that -- I speak only for myself, here -- I'm not sure what you mean by "the culture of promiscuity and immorality." I get the sense (and may be quite mistaken) that you're referring to something contemporary. As I look around the landscape, I see any number of sexual misbehaviors I personally disapprove of, and which most people I know also disapprove of -- marital infidelity is one example. Widespread disapproval does not equate to a "culture of promiscuity and immorality."

But as far as I know, marital infidelity is not just a contemporary issue. It's been a concern for at least 6,000 years (about the time writing was invented, so we have some record of people's thoughts and doings). I rather suspect it went on earlier than that.

It's the vagueness of language here that's a problem for me. How is our culture so different, sexually speaking, from the culture of ancient Egypt or Babylon? Or the Victorians? Or the dynasties of medieval China, etc.? As far as I know, most human societies have attempted to regulate human sexual behavior, and most have had somewhat limited success with these efforts.

I am specifically talking about the HOLLYWOOD culture, as reflected by the song lyrics from Sunset Boulevard I quoted.

It's been discussed on the radio at length - how powerful men have created and used this culture to control people - especially women - to dictate their careers, to entice them, to promise them success, ultimately to destroy them if they refuse.

This is a cliche - the 'casting couch'/ I am surprised nobody is referencing this. This is the promiscuous and immoral culture of Hollywood - driven by men and abusing women.

It is the basic reason Weinstein has got away with it so long. He is not the first and only man to do this. He's the one who got caught.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8134 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Yes, I don't think I said anything different.

In case you need reminding what you actually said.
quote:
We cannot expect to promote and enjoy immorality and promiscuity and then complain when someone takes it a bit too far.

You put the blame for a culture of sexual assaults full-square on promoting and enjoying immorality and promiscuity.

If you're now not saying this, but that the blame is on men's behaviour towards women, which continues whether culture is promoting promiscuity or promoting continence, then indeed we are in agreement.

Otherwise, not so much.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8938 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
This is a cliche - the 'casting couch'/ I am surprised nobody is referencing this. This is the promiscuous and immoral culture of Hollywood - driven by men and abusing women.

It is the basic reason Weinstein has got away with it so long.
He is not the first and only man to do this. He's the one who got caught.

Apparently the movie industry is the only remaining institution where sexual abuse still happens. Good to know!

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10506 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It was a very weird experience recently reading the Daily Mail diatribe about liberal hypocrisy on sexual assault, and right next to the online article is the usual DM helpful comments about various female celebrities, and their state of undress. Thus, 'X flaunts her 32FF assets and pert posterior in a VERY skimpy blue bikini, at yoga retreat'.

The article next to this attacks Hollywood superstars for being 'amoral money-grabbing cowards'. Laugh or cry.

This is a fake, but it's hard to tell.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17327 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hiro's Leap

Shipmate
# 12470

 - Posted      Profile for Hiro's Leap   Email Hiro's Leap   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Thanks, Pomona. Porn exists because the children and women depicted are considered "not quite human."

Why just children and women? What about gay male porn? That's a huge market. And what about all the women who watch porn? In 2014 Pornhub looked at the viewing habits of their female viewers. The most popular categories for women were lesbian porn, followed by gay male porn (interestingly enough), then teen, for-women and ebony porn. For 2015...
quote:
While the lesbian category still holds the number-one spot, and gay (male) number two, the number-three spot now goes to the big dick category. “Squirting” fell to the number 10 spot.

[...Searches for] “man eating pussy,” “guy eating girl out,” “guy fingering pussy” and “hardcore pussy licking,” [...] were conducted 722% and 934% more often by women than by men.

It might also be worth noting that women who use Pornhub search for the terms “squirting orgasm,” “daddy,” “big dick” and “big black dick” significantly more than men do.

[...] just as not all little girls like Barbie dolls, not all women like cute, cuddly sex. Quite the opposite, actually. Female sexuality is complicated and varied, and it can keep up with even the most ambitious of male fantasies.

I don't believe most women search for 'big dicks' or gay male porn because they regard men as not being fully human; the same surely applies to guys?

As for Weinstein and sexual abuse: patriarchal attitudes are no doubt are involved, not least with it being men holding the dominant positions in Hollywood. But sexual assault isn't just a heterosexual phenomenon (see: James Van Der Beek), and nor is the casting couch - I know a drama graduate who at 21 was given the opportunity to advance his career by sleeping with a number of well-connected executives/directors. He declined and dropped out of the industry.

More controversially, female-on-male rape appears to be astonishingly common. This is something I struggle to get my head round but seems to be true, and so I'm skeptical about theories of sexual assault which entirely ignore female perpetrators.

Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Over on other platforms a meme is making the rounds. If you've ever been sexually harassed or assaulted, you post 'Me Too.' Not a woman I know has posted, "Oh, no can do. I've never had an issue." Not one.
I wonder what would happen, here, with that same meme.
In response some men have started threads saying, I've never seen any problems when I was working at X. To which the reply from women has been, Did you look? There may be reasons you didn't see.

[ 16. October 2017, 17:23: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5853 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:

As for Weinstein and sexual abuse: patriarchal attitudes are no doubt are involved, not least with it being men holding the dominant positions in Hollywood. But sexual assault isn't just a heterosexual phenomenon

No one is saying it is. Men are the primary abusers, though.
quote:

More controversially, female-on-male rape appears to be astonishingly common.

Language is important here. The article says 'More Common Than Previously Known' which is not the same as astonishingly common. Even assuming that women are equally as likely to be predatory as men, there are fewer of them in a position of power, so the numbers will be lower.
quote:

This is something I struggle to get my head round but seems to be true, and so I'm skeptical about theories of sexual assault which entirely ignore female perpetrators.

Most theories see power as the dominant factor in abuse. This does not preclude female perpetrators. What minimises their impact is the male dominated culture which limits the number of women who attain power.
I am not accusing you of this, but the problem with the way you state the issue is that it is one generally used to justify ignoring it.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17135 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In most good, anonymised studies of domestic abuse, the figures show that abuse against men (by female and male partners) is on a par with abuse against women (by male and female partners).

But I know of no studies that have surveyed the public/work domain. Anecdotally, 100% of women have been subjected to sexual harassment/assault in this area, and less than 100% of men.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8938 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
On a not-particularly-related note, I was wolf-whistled today when I was walking past a college. By a group of 17 year old girls.

I think they were being ironic.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10339 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is a powerful summary of womens' situation. It's a poem, and a free click. I know that most women will nod while reading it. But what of the men? Who is it they recognize when they read this, or do they recognize nobody?

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5853 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106

 - Posted      Profile for Jemima the 9th     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Over on other platforms a meme is making the rounds. If you've ever been sexually harassed or assaulted, you post 'Me Too.' Not a woman I know has posted, "Oh, no can do. I've never had an issue." Not one.
.

My experience too (and yes, Me Too). Another depressing day on Facebook.
Posts: 782 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Hiro's Leap

Shipmate
# 12470

 - Posted      Profile for Hiro's Leap   Email Hiro's Leap   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Language is important here. The article says 'More Common Than Previously Known' which is not the same as astonishingly common.

From the Scientific American article:
quote:
The results were surprising. For example, the CDC’s nationally representative data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.
This was from a major survey of about 200,000 people. It was repeated a few years later, and then a third time. Each version produced almost identical results: men and women reported being forced to have sex against their will in almost equal numbers in the last 12 months, and women seemed to be largely responsible for it happening to the men*. Other surveys have since produced similar figures. Here's the paper this article is based on.

I call these results astonishing because they go entirely against my intuition, and I don't know whether to believe them. I'd still guess that workplace sexual harassment is very largely perpetrated by men - it's certainly difficult to imagine women behaving like Weinstein - but I'm much more cautious of broad claims about male/female sexual behaviour now.

(* Intriguingly, when researchers asked people about the four years before then, the number of reports from men plummeted but from women it remained similar - perhaps assault made less impact on the men for whatever reason and they forgot?)
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I am not accusing you of this, but the problem with the way you state the issue is that it is one generally used to justify ignoring it.

Sure, but by restricting discussion unnecessarily you can get a one-sided perspective. For instance, I'm quite happy to accept that patriarchy and male entitlement plays a major role in Weinstein's shitty behaviour, but the existence of significant unreported female sexual offending suggests to me that it's not the only factor. And as you say, power is important.

Still, I'm happy to drop this, or discuss it on another thread. And FWIW, you're someone I often find myself vigourously agreeing with or disagreeing with, but I always value your perspective.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
In most good, anonymised studies of domestic abuse, the figures show that abuse against men (by female and male partners) is on a par with abuse against women (by male and female partners).

I'd heard that the total levels are similar but the most serious violence (including murder) is overwhelmingly committed by men. But oh boy, that's a whole other can of bitterly contested worms. [Ultra confused]
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Each version produced almost identical results: men and women reported being forced to have sex against their will in almost equal numbers in the last 12 months,

That is what the Scientific American says, yes. But that sentence does not represent the entire picture. This infographic from the study they link paints a broader picture. It says that women are more likely to be abused by a significant percentage.
quote:

and women seemed to be largely responsible for it happening to the men*. Other surveys have since produced similar figures. Here's the paper this article is based on.

And this paper supports the first as well. The graph on page 304 shows this clearly.
Here is a larger quote from which you picked part:
quote:
Remarkably, the surveys have found that men and women had a similar 12-month prevalence of nonconsensual sex (i.e., 1.9 million women and 1.9 million men were raped or made to penetrate in 2011 data) (Breiding et al.,2014). There was greater divergence by sex in lifetime reports.
Bold Italics, mine.
What the reports appear to say, I have not read them completely, is that sexual assault against men is greater than previously thought and that women are more likely to be the perpetrators against men.
But still women are much more likely to be assaulted.

As far as 'restricting' the conversation, I don't think that is what is happening. This story, about Weinstein, is a workplace issue. And men dominate the workplace, so they will dominate the abuse.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17135 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

If I hear another older man say "nice ass" about someone he's older enough to be her father, and say nothing, I am guilty of condoning attitude. Nine times out of ten the woman whose ass is said to be nice has no idea it's been said. So I am saying something. And I think all men should.

Are you meaning to imply that it's OK for young guys to comment on attractive posteriors? 'cause I don't see why the age of the commenter makes a blind bit of difference.
Posts: 4902 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, you are. Plan to answer for your sin before the throne of God.
As ever, John Pavlovitz is wonderfully cogent about this.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5853 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's almost as if the conservatives are trying desperately to distract our attention away from sexual abuse by putting up the smokescreen of partisan bickering.

Sexual predation is inexcusable and should be called out AND wearing the label "liberal" while tolerating sexual or political tyranny is hypocrisy and should be called out.

It is, mirabile dictu, possible to hold two ideas in one's head at the same time.

Try it.

Here's another possibility: if liberal hypocrisy is being called out, some of those doing so just might have a commitment to genuine liberalism rather than to old-fashioned prejudices in favour of men's entitlement to sexually exploit women.

quote:

"That's deep. You know they have a section for people like you in the Reader's Digest." --Arthur Dent

"Imagine, if you will, someone who read only the Reader's Digest between 1950 and 1970, and someone in the same period who read only The Nation or The New Statesman. Which reader would have been better informed about the realities of Communism?" --Susan Sontag
Posts: 3245 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's almost as if the conservatives are trying desperately to distract our attention away from sexual abuse by putting up the smokescreen of partisan bickering.

Sexual predation is inexcusable and should be called out AND wearing the label "liberal" while tolerating sexual or political tyranny is hypocrisy and should be called out.
But isn't that exactly what you're seeing, and exactly what you want?

And the people who finally managed to bust the bubble of protection he lived in exactly the liberal journalists and actors you're railing against?

It's not as if a bunch of family-values orientated conservatives rode into town to clean up Hollywood? He was brought down (finally) by less powerful people in and around the movie industry.

Your main objection to him in all this appears to me not his sexual behaviour, but that he gave the Democrats a shedload of cash. Perhaps you'd be better off aiming your guns (all 300 million of them) at the political donation system.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8938 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:


Here's another possibility: if liberal hypocrisy is being called out, some of those doing so just might have a commitment to genuine liberalism rather than to old-fashioned prejudices in favour of men's entitlement to sexually exploit women.

What a strange collection of words to type in this context. Who gave you the power to unilaterally decide what "genuine" liberalism is?

quote:
]"Imagine, if you will, someone who read only the Reader's Digest between 1950 and 1970, and someone in the same period who read only The Nation or The New Statesman. Which reader would have been better informed about the realities of Communism?" --Susan Sontag
I give up. What's the answer?

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10339 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

 - Posted      Profile for Huia   Email Huia   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
LilBuddah, Sorry I've used up my access to the WP, but the link in the article wasn't talking about actors and movie people, but workmates, not all of whom are beautiful, hence my comment.

Huia

Brenda's link that you referenced wasn't to the Washington Post and I couldn't find the one that was, so I cannot comment on that article.
Sorry LB, I screwed up. I had read a similar article in the WP, and I'd had a disasterous day, so I possibly conflated the two. I apologise if I sent you on a wild goose chase for something that was elsewhere.

Huia

--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 10176 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858

 - Posted      Profile for Erroneous Monk   Email Erroneous Monk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a powerful summary of womens' situation. It's a poem, and a free click. I know that most women will nod while reading it. But what of the men? Who is it they recognize when they read this, or do they recognize nobody?

[Frown]

--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2890 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Are you meaning to imply that it's OK for young guys to comment on attractive posteriors? 'cause I don't see why the age of the commenter makes a blind bit of difference.

Age tends to come with a degree of authority and can accentuate a power imbalance, and there is the question of likelihood of reciprocal attraction as opposed to simple ogling. Whether it's ever ok to discuss the physical attractiveness of other people is a different matter, as is whether the effects of patriarchy make it worse for men to discuss women than the other way around. I know, for example, that before we were a couple my wife and a mutual friend were eyeing me up in my hockey kit. Now that doesn't particularly bother me, but I don't live in a society that constantly objectifies me. There is a penumbra around sexual harassment that can fade into courtship behaviours depending on the situation. Often it's not the behaviour itself but the behaviour within its context. It's a little bit like the sort of jokes you might get between friends and bullying behaviour. On the surface the words and tone might be similar, but the context is very different. Now it's up to the person making those "jokes" to be certain whether that behaviour is going to be ok with the person on the receiving end and if in doubt they need to back off.

EDIT:... and I've just realised how incredibly mansplainy that could come across. Sorry. Leaving it just in case there is anything useful to be gleaned.

[ 17. October 2017, 11:14: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

Posts: 2860 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

If I hear another older man say "nice ass" about someone he's older enough to be her father, and say nothing, I am guilty of condoning attitude. Nine times out of ten the woman whose ass is said to be nice has no idea it's been said. So I am saying something. And I think all men should.

Are you meaning to imply that it's OK for young guys to comment on attractive posteriors? 'cause I don't see why the age of the commenter makes a blind bit of difference.
Oh for God's sake. Thats idiotic. I imply nothing. Why would you attack for something I never said? I simply took an example parallel to Weinstein okay?
Posts: 11188 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's almost as if the conservatives are trying desperately to distract our attention away from sexual abuse by putting up the smokescreen of partisan bickering.

Sexual predation is inexcusable and should be called out AND wearing the label "liberal" while tolerating sexual or political tyranny is hypocrisy and should be called out.
But isn't that exactly what you're seeing, and exactly what you want?

And the people who finally managed to bust the bubble of protection he lived in exactly the liberal journalists and actors you're railing against?

It's not as if a bunch of family-values orientated conservatives rode into town to clean up Hollywood? He was brought down (finally) by less powerful people in and around the movie industry.

Your main objection to him in all this appears to me not his sexual behaviour, but that he gave the Democrats a shedload of cash. Perhaps you'd be better off aiming your guns (all 300 million of them) at the political donation system.

And the time when conservatives could get all moral behavior and talk about character and self-restraint and is long, long, =long= past. Stick a fork in it, it's done, when you elect a self-proclaimed pussy grabber. Whited sephulchre now has a new illustration in Wiki.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5853 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's almost as if the conservatives are trying desperately to distract our attention away from sexual abuse by putting up the smokescreen of partisan bickering.

Sexual predation is inexcusable and should be called out AND wearing the label "liberal" while tolerating sexual or political tyranny is hypocrisy and should be called out.
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And the time when conservatives could get all moral behavior and talk about character and self-restraint and is long, long, =long= past. Stick a fork in it, it's done, when you elect a self-proclaimed pussy grabber. Whited sephulchre now has a new illustration in Wiki.

Brenda, I don't think you and KC are in any real disagreement here. If you read his posts closely, he tacitly admits that it's not hypocrisy to "wear the label "[conservative]" while tolerating sexual or political tyranny". As I mentioned earlier the only objection American conservatives have to Weinstein is his habit of making financial contributions to the Democratic party. It's only hypocrisy for liberals because conservatives self-admittedly don't care about sexual assault, unless it can be used for propaganda purposes against their political enemies.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10506 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Whited sephulchre now has a new illustration in Wiki.

An Oranged sepulchre?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17135 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's almost as if the conservatives are trying desperately to distract our attention away from sexual abuse by putting up the smokescreen of partisan bickering.

Sexual predation is inexcusable and should be called out AND wearing the label "liberal" while tolerating sexual or political tyranny is hypocrisy and should be called out.
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And the time when conservatives could get all moral behavior and talk about character and self-restraint and is long, long, =long= past. Stick a fork in it, it's done, when you elect a self-proclaimed pussy grabber. Whited sephulchre now has a new illustration in Wiki.

Brenda, I don't think you and KC are in any real disagreement here. If you read his posts closely, he tacitly admits that it's not hypocrisy to "wear the label "[conservative]" while tolerating sexual or political tyranny". As I mentioned earlier the only objection American conservatives have to Weinstein is his habit of making financial contributions to the Democratic party. It's only hypocrisy for liberals because conservatives self-admittedly don't care about sexual assault, unless it can be used for propaganda purposes against their political enemies.

Yeah the whole "liberal hypocrisy" narrative reads to me as apologetic for the grabber-in-chief. Just another variation of Trump's own "everybody's doin' it" theme.

But then, the GOP were apparently able to survive the specter of Newt Gingrich pious public railing about Bill Clinton's immoral activity at the same time he's delivering divorce papers to hospitalized wife so he can run off with his mistress. So, yeah, Trump was not all that much out of their bandwidth. Boys will be boys. Yuk yuk yuk.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11132 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Found this, this morning. "men, what are you planning to do better? Because you need to do better."

It is a starting point for discussion I think. It takes consciousness and awareness to do differently.

(And it isn't chaperoning and protecting of women who can well take care of themselves. It is not isolated to older men. It's trying not to be a dick. I don't know why expressing positive attitudes is called out as dickhead, but what I see on the Ship is similar to elsewhere. I recall Hugh Prather's 1970 "Notes to Myself", where he wrote more gently about this, that please accept me although I happen to have a penis. Same as it ever was I suppose.)

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11188 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That actually is a good response. If men want to help, let them talk to/rebuke/deal with their fellow men. Do not rake the women into it.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5853 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My only issue is the passive-aggressive last point, having a go at men who genuinely aren't arseholes and implying they're lying to themselves. There are things on the list I've probably done on occasion; there's the odd thing I've had done to me, but most of it I either wouldn't dream of doing or haven't ever been in a position to do even if I had the inclination. The list is sensible, and it (along with various other articles) has caused me to scrutinise my past behaviour a bit more carefully. I just don't like being told I'm being awful for not pretending to be worse than I am.
Posts: 2860 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is on Facebook, but I am informed that even if you're not on FB you can click on it. A graphic summarizing the systemic assault upon women. Perfectly SFW, if you're worried.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5853 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607

 - Posted      Profile for Ohher   Author's homepage   Email Ohher   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
They forgot to add that, in addition to getting paid less, women often also have to pay more for the same / similar services: haircuts, drycleaning shirts vs. drycleaning blouses; hemming/alterations on suits; extra-large-size surcharge on women's clothing vs. none on extra-large-size men's clothing, etc.

And don't get me started on makeup, which is almost required wear for women in the business world, and which costs ridiculous sums, but which most men can easily go completely without, save a bit of aftershave or mustache wax or what-have-you.

--------------------
From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

Posts: 282 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools