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Source: (consider it) Thread: Harvey Weinstein and Liberal Hyposcrisy
Golden Key
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# 1468

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cliffdweller--

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But then, the GOP were apparently able to survive the specter of Newt Gingrich pious public railing about Bill Clinton's immoral activity at the same time he's delivering divorce papers to hospitalized wife so he can run off with his mistress. So, yeah, Trump was not all that much out of their bandwidth. Boys will be boys. Yuk yuk yuk.

Yes, re Gingrich. Interestingly, the current Mrs. G has been nominated to be US ambassador to the Vatican. Don't know what she's like. But if *he* tags along, then

1. Poor pope!

2. If he tries to divorce *this* wife as callously as he did his first*, maybe the pope will have a little talk with him...

[Two face]

*I'm not against divorce, just his horribly heartless way of doing it. IIRC, his hospitalized first wife was expected to die. He dumped the divorce papers on her anyway, rather than just waiting. (Of course, she didn't die, but he didn't know what would happen.)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

*I'm not against divorce, just his horribly heartless way of doing it. IIRC, his hospitalized first wife was expected to die. He dumped the divorce papers on her anyway, rather than just waiting. (Of course, she didn't die, but he didn't know what would happen.)

It was practical and thoughtful. If your spouse dies, it is rude to her family if you start fucking her replacement right away. However, if your ex kicks the bucket, fuck that night. Miss Manners would be proud.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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This goes into some detail about how to avoid harassing co-workers, just in case anyone needs a list.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Ohher
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Excellent list.

Doesn't apply solely to the workplace.

For the last couple of years, a member of a small theatre group I work with has been finding it necessary to put his arms around me. He does this whenever we disagree about something (or at least whenever I say something he doesn't care for); he seems to think this is a way to resolve differences.

BTW, we're both in our 70s; I am not a hot young starlet.

He never noticed that I didn't return these embraces; that in fact I'd go cold and stiff when he did this, and apparently is incapable of recalling that I have asked him repeatedly not to do this. "Samatter?" he says. "What's wrong with a little hug?" "I don't like it," I say, whereupon he attempts to hug me again. UGH!!

He talks over me at meetings; he makes actual eye contact only with the other men in the group, and on and on.

He also undercuts and undermines virtually every suggestion I make, and interrupts me when I'm speaking to the point where I actually blew up at him at one point and told him he was a sexist jerk.

Now he's claiming I have said and done things I have zero recollection of saying or doing, and roping other people into this, well, fray, when really much of this could have been avoided by his simply keeping his fucking hands to himself and allowing me to finish a sentence occasionally.

Sheesh. I thought I'd be done with this bullshit once I'd hit menopause.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Brenda Clough
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Probably it would not help to print out that list and give it to him. Even if you highlighted relevant items with a marker.
I incline to the creative solutions. And how handy, that it's a theater group. You could stomp him on the instep (wear heels, or at the very least heavy-soled boots) and then apologize, mentioning that your reflexes have been honed because you've been taking self-defense classes. If he isn't whimpering in pain go on to add that next week they're going to teach you how to knee assailants in the crotch. Beg him not to trigger your defense reflexes again; if he does, stomp some more. A sharp elbow in the brisket, also a deterrent.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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This Hour Has 22 Minutes, Canadian CBC comedy show had this today Harvey Weinstein was accused by infinity women..... She discusses that it isn't just powerful men who 'help themselves'. +1
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Lyda*Rose

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Oher:
quote:
For the last couple of years, a member of a small theatre group I work with has been finding it necessary to put his arms around me. He does this whenever we disagree about something (or at least whenever I say something he doesn't care for); he seems to think this is a way to resolve differences.
He thinks he's a bonobo. Sex it up until differences are smoothed over. (Although I seem to remember that bonobos are generally matriarchal. Bother.)

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Here's another possibility: if liberal hypocrisy is being called out, some of those doing so just might have a commitment to genuine liberalism rather than to old-fashioned prejudices in favour of men's entitlement to sexually exploit women.

What a strange collection of words to type in this context. Who gave you the power to unilaterally decide what "genuine" liberalism is?
What's "strange" is the suggestion of "power" being an issue here.

I am saying that genuine liberalism involves opposition to sexual and political tyranny, and that those calling themselves liberals but tolerate either, are hypocrites who do not represent real liberalism.

What's "strange" - downright bizarre, actually - is that you would not get that.

And yes, of course conservatives can be equally hypocritical, especially those who hold traditional ideals about how "gentlemen" treat "ladies" but don't live up to them, or downright neanderthals like Trump, who made even the corrupt, mendacious and hypocritical Clinton look good in comparison.

But this thread is about liberal hypocrisy, so start another one on conservative hypocrisy if you want to.

quote:
"Imagine, if you will, someone who read only the Reader's Digest between 1950 and 1970, and someone in the same period who read only The Nation or The New Statesman. Which reader would have been better informed about the realities of Communism?" --Susan Sontag
I give up. What's the answer? [/QUOTE]

You are blustering, either because you are ignorant of the issues, or because you are all too aware of them and are embarrassed by what Sontag admitted.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
What a strange collection of words to type in this context. Who gave you the power to unilaterally decide what "genuine" liberalism is?

What's "strange" is the suggestion of "power" being an issue here.

I am saying that genuine liberalism involves opposition to sexual and political tyranny, and that those calling themselves liberals but tolerate either, are hypocrites who do not represent real liberalism.

OK I don't think that is what you said before - but let's run with it.

So who is it that is being a hypocrite here? Are you trying to suggest that there are self-confessed liberals in Hollywood who are involved in some kind of pimping whilst at the same time as pushing their liberal (presumably Democrat) credentials?

I can see some evidence that this has happened with individuals, but the way you are talking suggests that this is par-for-the-course in Hollywood. I wonder why you think that.

quote:
What's "strange" - downright bizarre, actually - is that you would not get that.
It is very hard to understand what you are saying when you change the terms of your argument in such a dramatic way and offer zero evidence for your assertions or even a proper explanation as to what they're supposed to mean.

quote:
And yes, of course conservatives can be equally hypocritical, especially those who hold traditional ideals about how "gentlemen" treat "ladies" but don't live up to them, or downright neanderthals like Trump, who made even the corrupt, mendacious and hypocritical Clinton look good in comparison.

But this thread is about liberal hypocrisy, so start another one on conservative hypocrisy if you want to.

Mmm. I still am not really clear what the OP is saying and you're not really making a particularly strong case for it either.

quote:
quote:
quote:
"Imagine, if you will, someone who read only the Reader's Digest between 1950 and 1970, and someone in the same period who read only The Nation or The New Statesman. Which reader would have been better informed about the realities of Communism?" --Susan Sontag
I give up. What's the answer?
You are blustering, either because you are ignorant of the issues, or because you are all too aware of them and are embarrassed by what Sontag admitted.
I am ignorant of what this quote is supposed to mean. I assume that the answer is supposed to be the Readers Digest, but I can't really understand why.

[ 18. October 2017, 06:55: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
cliffdweller--

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But then, the GOP were apparently able to survive the specter of Newt Gingrich pious public railing about Bill Clinton's immoral activity at the same time he's delivering divorce papers to hospitalized wife so he can run off with his mistress. So, yeah, Trump was not all that much out of their bandwidth. Boys will be boys. Yuk yuk yuk.

Yes, re Gingrich. Interestingly, the current Mrs. G has been nominated to be US ambassador to the Vatican. Don't know what she's like. But if *he* tags along, then

1. Poor pope!

2. If he tries to divorce *this* wife as callously as he did his first*, maybe the pope will have a little talk with him...

[Two face]

*I'm not against divorce, just his horribly heartless way of doing it. IIRC, his hospitalized first wife was expected to die. He dumped the divorce papers on her anyway, rather than just waiting. (Of course, she didn't die, but he didn't know what would happen.)

I've been divorced so I've got pretty strong opinions. But this is really more about adultery and what sort of person screws around on his desperately ill wife, dumps her when shes on her death bed, thaeb goes out and rails on and on and ON about another guys adultery
On the very same day

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Doc Tor
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But that's conservative hypocrisy, and apparently we need a separate thread for that.

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Forward the New Republic

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If (and it is "if") Harvey Weinstein did some of the things which are alleged then he is a creep.

But the spectacle of every actress under the sun leaping gamely onto the "get Harvey" bandwagon is sickening: if Mr Weinstein didn't have young children who must be deeply traumatised by this circus it might even be funny.

So, the child of American "theatre royalty", Gwyneth Paltrow, didn't feel able to speak out? Really??? This from a woman who makes a fortune through rampant narcissism and self-promotion with details about her vagina-steaming (I kid you not) and such rot? Similarly Angelina Jolie: more than happy to pursue the family feud with her father Jon Voight (also a Hollywood insider) and with starring roles from when she was 20, felt unable to say anything? And this morning British actress Cara Delvigne has joined the baying mob, though quite how a granddaughter of Joselyn Stevens can claim she didn't know how to complain or who to is a mystery.

From the days before Hollywood existed the entertainment industry has had a reputation for attracting men hoping to parlay supposed influence into sexual favours from gullible young people. And from the earliest days too there have been plenty of up-coming actresses and actors who have turned around and said fuck off and have gone on to enjoy good, satisfying and highly successful careers. If you don't believe me, look at Katherine Hepburn and Bette Davis: both spoke about the casting couch in the 1940s yet had stellar careers.

The world will always be full of chancers - male and female - who seek to bully (and that is the correct term) people into bed with them. If you stand up to a bully 99 times out of 100 they fold.

I'm mystified that a whole bunch of women who have made a career based on appearing in public wearing little (sometimes) and speaking in front of hundreds as a day-to-day event have found themselves unable to turn around and say "no" when confronted by boorish behaviour.

No, I don't condone abuse - abuse of power, privilege, sexual abuse, whatever - but I also don't like the spectacle of a man being lynched without a hearing by a group of people who seem to have in common a belief in the power of PR and a willingness to expose themselves, their person (sometimes their partners and children) to any amount of publicity and to offer their thought on almost any subject regardless of knowledge or training.

Mr Weinstein deserves a level playing field and a fair hearing - something he isn't getting from anyone from the Obamas down. Shameful.

I whole heartedly agree with half of what you're saying. I'm not worried about Weinstein being lynched. I've never believed we need to think someone is innocent until proved guilty -- that's for juries. The rest of us don't need to shut our brains in a box until the trial is over. If even one of the stories about Weinstein is true he's a first degree slime ball and I hope his career is over.

I do agree with your surprise that a woman as outspoken as Angelina -- "Billy Bob and I have such passionate sex we draw blood from each other," -- Jolie, would be easily intimidated by this man. Such men should be talked about loudly, and punished from within their industry, from the very first, not allowed to get away with it for twenty years.

I also agree with you that the casting couch has been legendary around Hollywood since the Silents. It's hard to believe someone is so naïve she has never heard of it and isn't prepared for it when it shows up, so she can say a loud and definite, "NO." If I could say that to my boss at K-Mart when I was a timid 20 year-old and my family's food depended on my pay check then actresses should be able to say, "No" and mean it.

The Harvey Weinstiens of the world wouldn't be expecting women to be willing to trade sex for movie roles if none of them were.

While we're encouraging young women to speak-up, in every sense of the word, about work place sexual harassment, we should also be reminding them that their personal integrity is worth more than their careers.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Different context, but my experience of bullies is that if you stand up to them, 99 times out of a hundred they beat the living shit out of you so that you know that you must never, ever, ever dare to not know your place and stand up to them again. Ever. Because you're shit.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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In 2005 Courtney Love warned everyone, publicly, about not going to a hotel 'party' with Weinstein.

Her burgeoning acting career vanished overnight, and it's only just about recovered now with TV work.

That's how people learn. They look at those who speak out and they weigh the trade-off between speaking the truth and how much legal protection they'll get, against having their livelihood and their reputation destroyed. Then they come to a rational decision.

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Forward the New Republic

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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If only they had listened to Courtney and boycotted the party.

Karl: As far as I've read, Weinstein has never beaten anyone up even though we know he was turned down on many occasions. He is accused of rape in one instance and for that he should have been reported to the police. I don't see how any of this compares with high school bullies. Sadly, the law protects adults better than children.

In continuing to ignore the rumors, and in cases like Courtney's loud accusations, both men and women were being complicit for the sake of their wannabe careers.

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Doc Tor
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And we're back to victim blaming.

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Forward the New Republic

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Pomona
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# 17175

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
If only they had listened to Courtney and boycotted the party.

Karl: As far as I've read, Weinstein has never beaten anyone up even though we know he was turned down on many occasions. He is accused of rape in one instance and for that he should have been reported to the police. I don't see how any of this compares with high school bullies. Sadly, the law protects adults better than children.

In continuing to ignore the rumors, and in cases like Courtney's loud accusations, both men and women were being complicit for the sake of their wannabe careers.

Shall I tell you a story, Twilight? When I was 18 or so I was coerced into sexual activity with someone I lived in a hostel with. I generally think of it as sexual assault although it does meet the criteria for rape. Weed and forced watching of porn were involved. I didn't report it to the police. I didn't tell the staff of the hostel I lived in. I didn't tell anyone for many years. I still don't talk about it very much. I remained friends with my rapist while I lived at the hostel. He was much taller and physically stronger than me, and much more streetwise - the others at the hostels were much more 'streetsmart' and had mostly been homeless from the age of 16, I was working-class but from a 'better' household and struggled and still struggle with mental illness. I'm so sorry that you are inconvenienced by survivors not acting in the ways you think we are supposed to, but yesterday I had a panic attack in the toilets at college for half an hour because someone used the same body spray that my rapist used so maybe try to support us rather than suggesting that we are complicit in our abuse.

Survivors being 'complicit' with their abusers is usually survivors just trying to survive. We are still not to blame and only abusers are ever to blame for abuse. I was raped because my rapist decided to rape me, not because I was his friend.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Cutting and pasting to trim out the thickets of nested quotations a little: "I'm mystified that a whole bunch of women who have made a career based on appearing in public wearing little (sometimes) and speaking in front of hundreds as a day-to-day event have found themselves unable to turn around and say "no" when confronted by boorish behaviour."

I believe links have been posted explaining why women have found themselves unable to respond. I address the issue of clothing. If it's your -job- to wear certain clothing, then by definition the choice is not yours. Nobody gets up in the morning and chooses to wear a bunny costume every day. You wear it the way you wear the McDonald's cap or the shirt that says United Airlines on the pocket.

But. Even if a woman chooses to wear a bustier, even if she chooses to wear nothing at all -- this does not entitle anyone to assault her. You may ogle her short-shorts or her belly shirt and think in the privacy of your own mind what you like; your thoughts are your own, between you and your God. But you may neither touch nor shout lewd suggestions; we are coming, I hope, to where you can't even make the lewd suggestions to your male friends over a beer. No one is entitled to assault, no matter what anybody wears. Clothing is never an invitation.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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'Complicit' is a strange word to use about sexual harassment and abuse. I suppose it means helping someone to commit a crime, so if you are complicit in your own sexual abuse, you are partly responsible for it. What does this mean? We are not back to wearing the wrong clothes, going to the wrong party, are we?

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And we're back to victim blaming.*

You see my post as victim blaming. I see your answer as a patronizing attitude toward women that says they are not capable of living a courageous, self-determining, autonomous life.

*And let's be clear. I am not talking about rape victims. I'm talking about women who were told that if they refused to have sex with Weinstein (or watch him shower or whatever,) then their career would suffer, and so they went along with his demands. They made a deal. It's an insult to rape victims to lump them altogether.

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la vie en rouge
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Twilight, have you even seen Harvey Weinstein’s photo? The guy’s built like a massive brick outhouse. He is also reportedly a colossal bully.

Much as I like to think I’d walk away and to hell with my career, I also know I’d be bloody terrified if a man like that tried anything on with me.

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
They made a deal.

Dude. That's just fucked up.

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Forward the New Republic

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
'Complicit' is a strange word to use about sexual harassment and abuse. I suppose it means helping someone to commit a crime, so if you are complicit in your own sexual abuse, you are partly responsible for it. What does this mean? We are not back to wearing the wrong clothes, going to the wrong party, are we?

I called "complicit," the people who heard Courtney Love's stories about Weinstein and ignored her and went on to his party that same night. It's a form of rewarding his behavior with friendship when he should have been shunned. There are more and more stories coming out about the people who would go to "board meetings," with him along with some innocent young woman and then all get up and leave suddenly so that he would be alone with them. Yes. I call that complicit.

No one on this thread has talked about the clothes anyone was wearing. You can argue against that straw man, all you want but don't bring me into it.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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This kind of stuff has happened on the left actually. I remember a well-known orator, and it turned out that he had been supplied with young girls for decades, who presumably he had sex with. As the story came out, the girls' parents were furious, but they were over 16, and they consented.

But emotionally, it's a kind of rape, as they were so young, and they were told that they were helping this great man, and the cause of socialism, blah blah blah.

Is there anywhere where it does not go on?

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:

Shall I tell you a story, Twilight? When I was 18 or so I was coerced into sexual activity with someone I lived in a hostel with. I generally think of it as sexual assault although it does meet the criteria for rape. Weed and forced watching of porn were involved. I didn't report it to the police. I didn't tell the staff of the hostel I lived in. I didn't tell anyone for many years. I still don't talk about it very much. I remained friends with my rapist while I lived at the hostel. He was much taller and physically stronger than me, and much more streetwise - the others at the hostels were much more 'streetsmart' and had mostly been homeless from the age of 16, I was working-class but from a 'better' household and struggled and still struggle with mental illness. I'm so sorry that you are inconvenienced by survivors not acting in the ways you think we are supposed to, but yesterday I had a panic attack in the toilets at college for half an hour because someone used the same body spray that my rapist used so maybe try to support us rather than suggesting that we are complicit in our abuse.

Survivors being 'complicit' with their abusers is usually survivors just trying to survive. We are still not to blame and only abusers are ever to blame for abuse. I was raped because my rapist decided to rape me, not because I was his friend.

How would you have felt if you had told the staff at the hostel and they had sided with him? Wouldn't you have thought they were complicit in the future rapes he might have committed?

I was raped as a seventeen year-old virgin and I know it's awful. The ripple effects informed the rest of my life. So I understand that it's awful and I'm sorry it happened to you, I just don't know why you're blaming me for it.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:

Shall I tell you a story, Twilight? When I was 18 or so I was coerced into sexual activity with someone I lived in a hostel with. I generally think of it as sexual assault although it does meet the criteria for rape. Weed and forced watching of porn were involved. I didn't report it to the police. I didn't tell the staff of the hostel I lived in. I didn't tell anyone for many years. I still don't talk about it very much. I remained friends with my rapist while I lived at the hostel. He was much taller and physically stronger than me, and much more streetwise - the others at the hostels were much more 'streetsmart' and had mostly been homeless from the age of 16, I was working-class but from a 'better' household and struggled and still struggle with mental illness. I'm so sorry that you are inconvenienced by survivors not acting in the ways you think we are supposed to, but yesterday I had a panic attack in the toilets at college for half an hour because someone used the same body spray that my rapist used so maybe try to support us rather than suggesting that we are complicit in our abuse.

Survivors being 'complicit' with their abusers is usually survivors just trying to survive. We are still not to blame and only abusers are ever to blame for abuse. I was raped because my rapist decided to rape me, not because I was his friend.

How would you have felt if you had told the staff at the hostel and they had sided with him? Wouldn't you have thought they were complicit in the future rapes he might have committed?

I was raped as a seventeen year-old virgin and I know it's awful. The ripple effects informed the rest of my life. So I understand that it's awful and I'm sorry it happened to you, I just don't know why you're blaming me for it.

I'm not blaming you for my rape, I'm blaming you for the horrifying victim-blaming you're doing. The women victimised by Weinstein are abuse survivors, and speaking as a survivor it is YOU that is insulting rape victims, not them. They are NOT complicit in their abuse - they were groomed. You should be ashamed of yourself for treating other survivors like that.

Also L'Organist brought up clothing as part of their victim blaming spree, it's not a straw man. Both you and L'Organist have spoken appallingly. Your victim blaming is why people don't come forward.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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quetzalcoatl
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Grooming is the word I was looking for, in my story about the left-wing orator. Young girls were groomed by other people on the left, and they were like lambs to the slaughter. You can certainly blame the groomers, and I know some of them to this day, and some of them were very famous, but you can't blame the girls, or say that they were complicit.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This kind of stuff has happened on the left actually. I remember a well-known orator, and it turned out that he had been supplied with young girls for decades, who presumably he had sex with. As the story came out, the girls' parents were furious, but they were over 16, and they consented.

But emotionally, it's a kind of rape, as they were so young, and they were told that they were helping this great man, and the cause of socialism, blah blah blah.

Is there anywhere where it does not go on?

Unfortunately it has happened, and still happens, a lot on the left (the SWP, Novara Media, Kris Weiss etc) - but it happens everywhere there are men.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
... I'm talking about women who were told that if they refused to have sex with Weinstein (or watch him shower or whatever,) then their career would suffer, and so they went along with his demands. They made a deal. ...

Twilight, what is your definition of "coercion"?

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This kind of stuff has happened on the left actually. I remember a well-known orator, and it turned out that he had been supplied with young girls for decades, who presumably he had sex with. As the story came out, the girls' parents were furious, but they were over 16, and they consented.

But emotionally, it's a kind of rape, as they were so young, and they were told that they were helping this great man, and the cause of socialism, blah blah blah.

Is there anywhere where it does not go on?

Unfortunately it has happened, and still happens, a lot on the left (the SWP, Novara Media, Kris Weiss etc) - but it happens everywhere there are men.
Well, OK, I was sexually abused by a woman, but I don't want to derail the thread.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This kind of stuff has happened on the left actually. I remember a well-known orator, and it turned out that he had been supplied with young girls for decades, who presumably he had sex with. As the story came out, the girls' parents were furious, but they were over 16, and they consented.

But emotionally, it's a kind of rape, as they were so young, and they were told that they were helping this great man, and the cause of socialism, blah blah blah.

Is there anywhere where it does not go on?

Unfortunately it has happened, and still happens, a lot on the left (the SWP, Novara Media, Kris Weiss etc) - but it happens everywhere there are men.
Well, OK, I was sexually abused by a woman, but I don't want to derail the thread.
Firstly - sorry, it was Sam Kriss I meant, not Kris Weiss.

Secondly, that doesn't change the fact that men's sexual violence (against women and also against men) is institutionalised in a way women and nb people's sexual violence isn't. I'm very sorry about your experiences, and of course they were wrong and should never happen. But just like how a black person attacking a white person doesn't negate BLM, the relatively rare cases of women's sexual violence against men doesn't negate the fact that this is about male sexual violence. It doesn't mean it doesn't matter, but it isn't incorporated into society and normalised in the same way male sexual violence is. And that's the real problem - that male sexual violence is seen as totally normal (and I am including male sexual violence against men, particularly within state institutions like prisons - would that prison ministry would tackle *that*).

Again, I'm sorry about your experiences and not diminishing them - just differentiating between violence that happens at individual and institutional levels. I know it doesn't make it easier to experience though.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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quetzalcoatl
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Is women's sexual violence rare? I don't know. My mother was incredibly abusive, and later in life, of course, it all repeated. Anyway, I think it is a derail, and it would deserve its own thread.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And we're back to victim blaming.*

You see my post as victim blaming. I see your answer as a patronizing attitude toward women that says they are not capable of living a courageous, self-determining, autonomous life.

*And let's be clear. I am not talking about rape victims. I'm talking about women who were told that if they refused to have sex with Weinstein (or watch him shower or whatever,) then their career would suffer, and so they went along with his demands. They made a deal. It's an insult to rape victims to lump them altogether.

If you wish to be clear, you must first understand the situation. And it doesn't appear you do.
Fuck! Writing this response is difficult, even more than writing about assault is to start.
You make it sound as if there is a sign above the door that says "Must be willing to fuck for a job".
That isn't how pressure and coercion work. Not anywhere, but especially not in Hollywood. It is this bullshit simplistic representation of the world that helps perpetuate the abuse.
Fuck. Read the fucking accounts linked on this thread. If those don't help you understand a little better, I'm not sure what else might.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Cutting and pasting to trim out the thickets of nested quotations a little: "I'm mystified that a whole bunch of women who have made a career based on appearing in public wearing little (sometimes) and speaking in front of hundreds as a day-to-day event have found themselves unable to turn around and say "no" when confronted by boorish behaviour."

I believe links have been posted explaining why women have found themselves unable to respond. I address the issue of clothing. If it's your -job- to wear certain clothing, then by definition the choice is not yours. Nobody gets up in the morning and chooses to wear a bunny costume every day. You wear it the way you wear the McDonald's cap or the shirt that says United Airlines on the pocket.

But. Even if a woman chooses to wear a bustier, even if she chooses to wear nothing at all -- this does not entitle anyone to assault her. You may ogle her short-shorts or her belly shirt and think in the privacy of your own mind what you like; your thoughts are your own, between you and your God. But you may neither touch nor shout lewd suggestions; we are coming, I hope, to where you can't even make the lewd suggestions to your male friends over a beer. No one is entitled to assault, no matter what anybody wears. Clothing is never an invitation.

Agreeing with all of the above. But also wondering to what extent we are getting the cause-and-effect backwards. Perhaps it is not so much a case of women who are willing to get naked for a part are women who will be willing to sleep with a pig to get a part. Perhaps-- and honestly I am wondering, not stating, because I am speaking outside of my own experience-- I am wondering if perhaps it is rather the other way around-- that, in some cases, one of the side effects of sexual assault is having some natural boundaries broken down, leading perhaps to more compliance/less resistance to nudity "for the sake of the role". Perhaps abuse at an early age is training/normalizing an experience that ought not to be normalized. Which may be why it's taking so many years for women to get to the point where they look back and go, "wait, that was really messed up..."

Again, I"m speculating, and invite those who care to share from experience to correct me if I"m off base. Just trying to understand the dynamic more, and wondering if the "casting couch" has more than just the obvious purpose.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Grooming is the word I was looking for, in my story about the left-wing orator. Young girls were groomed by other people on the left, and they were like lambs to the slaughter. You can certainly blame the groomers, and I know some of them to this day, and some of them were very famous, but you can't blame the girls, or say that they were complicit.

Again, I think everything about this post is correct except the gratuitous addition of "on the left". Sure, the people in Weinstein's orbit, his handlers/enablers, were probably liberal. And the people in Roger Ailes' orbit were almost certainly ultra-conservative. What we're seeing is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with left/right, but rather about power and vulnerability. It's a pattern exists in all sorts of spheres, where powerful predators are allowed access to young women.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Grooming is the word I was looking for, in my story about the left-wing orator. Young girls were groomed by other people on the left, and they were like lambs to the slaughter. You can certainly blame the groomers, and I know some of them to this day, and some of them were very famous, but you can't blame the girls, or say that they were complicit.

Again, I think everything about this post is correct except the gratuitous addition of "on the left". Sure, the people in Weinstein's orbit, his handlers/enablers, were probably liberal. And the people in Roger Ailes' orbit were almost certainly ultra-conservative. What we're seeing is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with left/right, but rather about power and vulnerability. It's a pattern exists in all sorts of spheres, where powerful predators are allowed access to young women.
Indeed, the difference is the left at least belatedly condemns it; the right elects the abuser as President.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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quetzalcoatl
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The right wing also tend to blame women as complicit.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The right wing also tend to blame women as complicit.

Or at least to blame by not wearing ankle-length skirts.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Agreeing with all of the above. But also wondering to what extent we are getting the cause-and-effect backwards.

And then you lose me. Possibly I am being particularly obtuse, but I am not understanding the point you are making.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Is women's sexual violence rare? I don't know. My mother was incredibly abusive, and later in life, of course, it all repeated. Anyway, I think it is a derail, and it would deserve its own thread.

It's uncommon but I have come across multiple cases in clinical practice, and I am not sure that I agree it's not institutionalised. I think it goes unrecognised to a large extent - which makes it difficult to track. However, the narrative a boy being 'initiated' by an older woman has been around for a long time. And the terms in which the sexual abuse of boys by female teachers are reported in the press still fail to recognise the seriousness of the offence and the damage it does.

I think the reasons males are unable to speak out are different but nonetheless real.

I am not sure it is helpful to separate off male survivors from the discussion. This violence is largely about power dynamics, and gendered assumptions that harm both men and women.

We need all genders to see it as problem, and to see it as a problem residing in the abuser not the survivor.

We need to understand grooming, and how abuse of power works systemically - not look at isolated incidents of why did you make this risky choice.

People do and put up with all sorts of shit to survive.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Hiro's Leap

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I am not talking about rape victims. I'm talking about women who were told that if they refused to have sex with Weinstein (or watch him shower or whatever,) then their career would suffer, and so they went along with his demands. They made a deal. It's an insult to rape victims to lump them altogether.

The casting couch maybe isn't rape, but it's certainly abusive and "rape adjacent". If you're expected to offer sex to get a top job, the industry you're working in is deeply fucked up and shitty. It's also grossly unfair to the applicants who don't go along with it - they don't get to compete on their own merits.

OTOH, if, as alleged, Weinstein threatened to actively ruin people's careers for not sleeping with him, that's flat out rape.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Indeed, the difference is the left at least belatedly condemns it; the right elects the abuser as President.

While lots of people have said this on this thread, I don't think it's a valid comparison. Attacking Weinstein cost the left almost nothing.

Instead, suppose you're in the middle of an election in an alternate universe: Bill Clinton vs Dick Cheney / Sarah Palin. It's neck-and-neck, but then a recording surfaces of Bill on the golf course laughing about grabbing pussy. Various women accuse him of sexual abuse. Bill says he was just talking shit, and categorically denies all abuse. He refuses to step down, and even if he did, you'd almost certainly lose the election.

So what do you do? Accept four years of Cheney/Palin (plus their Supreme Court Justice nominations)? Risk Roe vs Wade, crippling reductions in welfare and whatever else? Or hold your nose, vote for Bill grab-em-by-the-pussy Clinton, and decide that most of the allegations were politically motivated?

I suspect the left would be more conflicted than conservatives have been, but in the end motivated reasoning is a powerful force. It'd certainly be a far more painful decision than turning on Weinstein.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Is women's sexual violence rare? I don't know. My mother was incredibly abusive, and later in life, of course, it all repeated. Anyway, I think it is a derail, and it would deserve its own thread.

It's uncommon but I have come across multiple cases in clinical practice, and I am not sure that I agree it's not institutionalised. I think it goes unrecognised to a large extent - which makes it difficult to track. However, the narrative a boy being 'initiated' by an older woman has been around for a long time. And the terms in which the sexual abuse of boys by female teachers are reported in the press still fail to recognise the seriousness of the offence and the damage it does.

I think the reasons males are unable to speak out are different but nonetheless real.

I am not sure it is helpful to separate off male survivors from the discussion. This violence is largely about power dynamics, and gendered assumptions that harm both men and women.

We need all genders to see it as problem, and to see it as a problem residing in the abuser not the survivor.

We need to understand grooming, and how abuse of power works systemically - not look at isolated incidents of why did you make this risky choice.

People do and put up with all sorts of shit to survive.

I realise I wasn't clear, but I was only separating by the gender of the perpetrator, not the survivor. Male sexual violence against all genders is different to female sexual violence of all genders. By 'institutionalised' I mean in terms of being part of a wider sphere of oppression - we live in a patriarchy not a matriarchy, male violence in general is part of public and private life in a way female violence isn't. Of course, none of that makes the recipients of female violence better off - it is in no way about diminishing their experiences. I am just clarifying that the power dynamics I am talking about are different to eg a teacher/pupil dynamic, and ditto the symptoms of gender at play.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Is women's sexual violence rare? I don't know. My mother was incredibly abusive, and later in life, of course, it all repeated. Anyway, I think it is a derail, and it would deserve its own thread.

It's uncommon but I have come across multiple cases in clinical practice, and I am not sure that I agree it's not institutionalised. I think it goes unrecognised to a large extent - which makes it difficult to track. However, the narrative a boy being 'initiated' by an older woman has been around for a long time. And the terms in which the sexual abuse of boys by female teachers are reported in the press still fail to recognise the seriousness of the offence and the damage it does.

I think the reasons males are unable to speak out are different but nonetheless real.

I am not sure it is helpful to separate off male survivors from the discussion. This violence is largely about power dynamics, and gendered assumptions that harm both men and women.

We need all genders to see it as problem, and to see it as a problem residing in the abuser not the survivor.

We need to understand grooming, and how abuse of power works systemically - not look at isolated incidents of why did you make this risky choice.

People do and put up with all sorts of shit to survive.

Statistics on this seems wildly discordant. You used to get stats of about 15% for abuse of boys and young men, but latterly, I have seen figures of 38% quoted, and even higher. I don't know how much of this is by women.

I think it has been fairly taboo, as men feel it is unmanly to admit to anything of this kind, especially from a woman. Shame of course playa a big role.

Also unconsciousness, I think. It took me decades to realize that a particular woman had been very abusive to me. Of course, I felt I deserved it.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Indeed, the difference is the left at least belatedly condemns it; the right elects the abuser as President.

While lots of people have said this on this thread, I don't think it's a valid comparison. Attacking Weinstein cost the left almost nothing.
Not accurate. Attacking Weinstein now isn't very costly. At the height of his powers, it would cost politicians a lot of money and those in the industry their livelihood.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:

So what do you do? Accept four years of Cheney/Palin (plus their Supreme Court Justice nominations)? Risk Roe vs Wade, crippling reductions in welfare and whatever else? Or hold your nose, vote for Bill grab-em-by-the-pussy Clinton, and decide that most of the allegations were politically motivated?

I suspect the left would be more conflicted than conservatives have been, but in the end motivated reasoning is a powerful force. It'd certainly be a far more painful decision than turning on Weinstein.

I think there might be a concerted campaign to elect the ticket with a view to impeaching the pussy grabber and replacing them with their VP, or holding an emergency party convention prior to the election and petitioning the electors to vote for whoever the convention picks. Either way it might precipitate a constitutional crisis but I think without some sort of drastic action enough democratic voters would be disgusted enough to vote for a third party candidate that a loss would be assured. Court picks, of course, are dependent on the Senate, and it's been made clear in recent years that you can block them for whatever reason you feel like and make up a reason later.
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Brenda Clough
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It is clear that the current Congress does not feel there is anything wrong with their president. Not certain that 'what ifs' are helpful. We are here; we can only go forward.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Agreeing with all of the above. But also wondering to what extent we are getting the cause-and-effect backwards.

And then you lose me. Possibly I am being particularly obtuse, but I am not understanding the point you are making.
Sorry-- it was a speculative thought that I was spinning, then halfway thru the spin realized it was perhaps inappropriate for me to speculate when it's outside of my experience, so really more for those who have experienced sexual assault to say to what degree it is/is not the case-- should they choose to do so.

What I was responding to was the suggestion upthread that the female actors who had been victimized by Weinstein weren't so much victims but simply women who had made a quid-pro-quo deal, and that it was hypocritical to suggest women who are OK with taking off their clothes on camera were unwilling victims of a such a quid-pro-quo arrangement.

I was agreeing with another poster that such a suggestion was victim-blaming. So far so good. Then was when I (perhaps foolishly) began spinning off into speculation:

My speculation was that rather than suggesting that a woman who is willing to take off her clothes on camera will be willing to sleep with Weinstein or anyone else to get ahead, perhaps the cause-and-effect is the other way around. Perhaps one of the side-effects of sexual exploitation/assault such as Weinstein perpetrated was that it normalizes that behavior and breaks down barriers, making those victims more likely to consent to, say, gratuitous on-screen nudity. I was further speculating that perhaps that is even, consciously or subconsciously, part of the motivation for predators like Weinstein-- not just the immediate sexual gratification but also the "grooming" of someone for a different sort of exploitation on film. Not suggesting so much that nudity in film is such a horrible thing but rather than big-wig Hollywood moguls really don't like to have to deal with these sorts of negotiations and really just like their actors compliant.

All of which again is highly speculative and really perhaps not my place to go there.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

My speculation was that rather than suggesting that a woman who is willing to take off her clothes on camera will be willing to sleep with Weinstein or anyone else to get ahead, perhaps the cause-and-effect is the other way around. Perhaps one of the side-effects of sexual exploitation/assault such as Weinstein perpetrated was that it normalizes that behavior and breaks down barriers, making those victims more likely to consent to, say, gratuitous on-screen nudity.

I see it as part of the same process. What a woman has to do in order to be part of the business,

quote:

I was further speculating that perhaps that is even, consciously or subconsciously, part of the motivation for predators like Weinstein-- not just the immediate sexual gratification but also the "grooming" of someone for a different sort of exploitation on film.

Weinstein's victims included women he had no yet worked with and those with little experience in the business and those who were part of the business side.

Predators groom. But Hollywood never needed to set up a system as you suggest to facilitate this. It is a male run business built from the ground on exploitation. It attracts people with a passion for the business and working relationships are requisite. Careers are made and ruined on whims.
I cannot think of any other industry more ripe for exploitation.

[ 18. October 2017, 20:30: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Golden Key
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{From the bleachers, 'cause I don't want to jump into the middle of a battle royal.}

FYI:

It's not just acting. Do a search on "gymnastics abuse sexual" (Duck Duck Go). Then run it again, substituting "ice skating", "tennis", and "Olympics". Sometimes, people told, and the various sports authorities did nothing. There've been other forms of abuse. E.g., Bela and Marta Karoli, famous gymnastic coaches for girls, allegedly ignored sexual abuse at their training facility, and allegedly physically, verbally, and emotionally abused the girls themselves.

Then there are religious groups, school teachers, relatives, co-workers, strangers...

Then there are the ways that women performers--even news anchors--are expected to wear sexy clothes and deep necklines. Watch ballroom dancing competitions, or "Dancing With The Stars". Women often wear very little, and men are generally pretty well covered. Somehow, male skaters and gymnasts can be fairly well covered; but females somehow have to wear much less in order to do their work.

Then there are child beauty pageants.

Etc., etc. It happens throughout life. It's built into culture. Even ads, movies, and TV sexualize children.

There needs to be a way to rip the top off this whole thing, acknowledge the poison and rot, clear it all away, and do better.

[Votive]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
{From the bleachers, 'cause I don't want to jump into the middle of a battle royal.}

FYI:

It's not just acting.

I didn't intend to imply that only film has such a problem. Any profession that has gatekeepers will have a greater level of problems than standard.
I've had encounters with former gymnasts, but I cannot claim much expertise in their world. However, I can see it would be more problematic than a "normal" job such as engineering.
Film is job to job for many of the crew and all of the talent. Whether one's telephone rings is dependant on who wants to call you. And there is little recourse if no one does.

[ 18. October 2017, 20:58: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17128 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged



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