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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: If Hatred Isn't Acceptable, Then What Do We Do About Hateful People?
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I don't think the "he who hates his brother is a murderer" prohibition on hatred is an arbitrary or simply challenging dictum. I think it's rooted in the NT idea of our need for redemption, and the idea that some people can uniquely not deserve it. By definition no-one does. It's offered because God's nice like that, if you'll excuse the phrasing. That's not to say that everyone's equally bad; I think that's a misunderstanding of the concept. If we give into hatred, we have to deny our own need of redemption, because we are in essence saying "I deserve God's favour, you do not."
The late and very very wise Glen Stassen wrote brilliantly on the Sermon on the Mount, and had some helpful insights on this as well. He points out first of all the point already made that the SoM is shifting from an external ethic (doing the right external actions) to an internal ethic (the heart as the source of those actions). That doesn't mean action isn't important-- it's not all "Jesus and me"-- because action is key-- but the point is that it all flows from the heart. When we begin with the action side, holiness takes effort, struggle-- there can be a nobility in that, but it is human effort, without the gift of the Spirit. With the transformation of the heart thru the Spirit, the actions are simply the natural outgrowth of the heart attitudes. Doesn't mean it isn't still difficult, but it's a different kind of difficulty.
In terms of hate in particular, Stassen points out how Jesus connects hate with murder. Stassen suggests that every human genocide begins by "dehumanizing" the other. The language of the Nazis about the Jews, the language in the Rwandan genocide-- the "other" are "insects", "rodents'-- variations on "non-humans". In American slavery, slaves were literally counted as 3/5 human. Stassen suggests there is an innate resistance in the human soul to murder. In order to overcome that, we must first hate & demean our enemy, then hold them in contempt, and finally come to consider them (even subconsciously) sub-human-- all internal processes necessary before you get to the point of picking up a hammer to bash the guy over the head.
So instead of walking around all day under the "Law"-- having to think over and over again "don't kill him-- just don't kill him-- oooh, I hate him so much! I want him dead-- but don't kill him!" Instead, if I can replace hate with love I don't have to obsess about not killing him because killing him is antithetical with love.
Very good in theory but perhaps more challenging in real life!
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I think I hated more before any experience became personal. Empathy and all that.
OK to hate on another's behalf but not OK to forgive on another's behalf ? Maybe that's the sort of empathy we could do without...
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I think I hated more before any experience became personal. Empathy and all that.
OK to hate on another's behalf but not OK to forgive on another's behalf ? Maybe that's the sort of empathy we could do without...
yeah, because that is what I said. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I have been taught to pray for the people I dislike/hate/fear. I have also been taught that it is OK at first to pray that they die a horrible death over a long period of time.
It is OK to pray that because experience is that praying for someone after a while becomes prayer for their well being.
That is a different thing than being passive while another human, or animal, or this planet, is hurt by someone acting badly. Then you try to stop them and heal the hurt if you can.
At the same time, for me at least, it is like I was taught about raising my kids: Tell them you dislike what they did, not that you dislike them.
I am reading an awful lot of theory about what to do about a hater. If you are going to disapprove of someone, how does that play out?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I don't think the "he who hates his brother is a murderer" prohibition on hatred is an arbitrary or simply challenging dictum. I think it's rooted in the NT idea of our need for redemption, and the idea that some people can uniquely not deserve it. By definition no-one does. It's offered because God's nice like that, if you'll excuse the phrasing. That's not to say that everyone's equally bad; I think that's a misunderstanding of the concept. If we give into hatred, we have to deny our own need of redemption, because we are in essence saying "I deserve God's favour, you do not."
The late and very very wise Glen Stassen wrote brilliantly on the Sermon on the Mount, and had some helpful insights on this as well. He points out first of all the point already made that the SoM is shifting from an external ethic (doing the right external actions) to an internal ethic (the heart as the source of those actions). That doesn't mean action isn't important-- it's not all "Jesus and me"-- because action is key-- but the point is that it all flows from the heart. When we begin with the action side, holiness takes effort, struggle-- there can be a nobility in that, but it is human effort, without the gift of the Spirit. With the transformation of the heart thru the Spirit, the actions are simply the natural outgrowth of the heart attitudes. Doesn't mean it isn't still difficult, but it's a different kind of difficulty.
In terms of hate in particular, Stassen points out how Jesus connects hate with murder. Stassen suggests that every human genocide begins by "dehumanizing" the other. The language of the Nazis about the Jews, the language in the Rwandan genocide-- the "other" are "insects", "rodents'-- variations on "non-humans". In American slavery, slaves were literally counted as 3/5 human. Stassen suggests there is an innate resistance in the human soul to murder. In order to overcome that, we must first hate & demean our enemy, then hold them in contempt, and finally come to consider them (even subconsciously) sub-human-- all internal processes necessary before you get to the point of picking up a hammer to bash the guy over the head.
So instead of walking around all day under the "Law"-- having to think over and over again "don't kill him-- just don't kill him-- oooh, I hate him so much! I want him dead-- but don't kill him!" Instead, if I can replace hate with love I don't have to obsess about not killing him because killing him is antithetical with love.
Very good in theory but perhaps more challenging in real life!
Top post.
I have an image in my head of a young black girl walking to a forcibly desegregated school through a crowd of white people screaming at her while she prays for them. I'm not sure if its fictional, or a mash-up of shows I've seen on the civil rights movement.
In any event, I hated a bloke this morning when he got difficult about moving his car. The feeling was gone almost as soon as I left work and now, maybe 3 hours later, I can wonder whether it was hate or anger mixed with frustration, or both.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
If you think what I'm talking about is equivalent to " hating" someone who cuts ne off in traffic or stolen my parking space, then I fear I have apparently not communicated my question, or the level of evil demonstrated by individuals I'm thinking of, very clearly at all.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I thought you were looking for a way to stop hating people who are really evil.
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Human
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Well, equating them to poor drivers isn't really going to do that. And I'm not in fact sure that " stopping hating" is possible in some circomstances. Managing it, yes, advice is appreciated.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
And I'm not in fact sure that " stopping hating" is possible in some circomstances. Managing it, yes, advice is appreciated.
I cannot manage my anger, so I can't give you much help on how to manage hate. I think I gave up hate because it is both too much wasted effort and because it allows the hated a victory, even should they not know of it. Maybe not victory, so much as control or effect. And I am a stubborn thing, so perhaps rejecting hate is more one bad habit evicting the other than any self-control on my part.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
You know that saying, " Let your haters be your motivators"? I'm trying very hard to leverage my rage at the people in question into energy that helps people hurt by them and to oppose everything they do, but sometimes it feels like re- arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
If you think what I'm talking about is equivalent to " hating" someone who cuts ne off in traffic or stolen my parking space, then I fear I have apparently not communicated my question, or the level of evil demonstrated by individuals I'm thinking of, very clearly at all.
I thought you were talking about hating Hitler.
But it seems to me entirely possible to recognise that objectively Hitler did many very evil things, without feeling any personal hatred.
And conversely to have strong negative feelings for political opponents while recognising that objectively they are well-meaning people doing what seems to them right and just.
The correlation between level of evil and level of feeling isn't there. The heart may wish to see someone die a painful death and rot in hell for eternity while the head knows they don't deserve it. Or vice versa.
Which is sort of back to lilBuddha's point about empathy.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
You know that saying, " Let your haters be your motivators"? I'm trying very hard to leverage my rage at the people in question into energy that helps people hurt by them and to oppose everything they do, but sometimes it feels like re- arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
As said upthread, anger/rage/hate are difficult to separate definitionally. For me anger and rage are on a different line that hate. I have felt anger, and even rage, towards people I like. Hate, for me, is an extension of dislike. This helps me separate that anger. Bother, I don't know how much help I'm being. It isn't a completely though out philosophy, so I am struggling to articulate it.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
The things that helps me with my hate are:
1. an acknowledgement that I don't really know enough about the person I am hating. This helps especially with people I see on the telly.
2. I am well on top of my own failings and potential for wrongdoing, or at least I have the appalling hubris to think I am. I'm constantly checking myself for arrogance in particular. Knowing that my own person has some good and some really bad helps to try and stop judging people. This self-checking can be emotionally destructive, but I'm kind of used to it because I have to do self-checking of my mood to (paradoxically) maintain good mental health.
Thanks for posting this question LutheranChk.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Hate maybe equals a state of 'being'. Written something, someone, some group, off completely. The mind has closed as in a prejudgment or prejudice. The damage is done.
Anger and rage are like more active, ongoing, fluid. Good or bad may come from it.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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AmyBo
Shipmate
# 15040
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Posted
I've only truly hated one person (my rapist ex), to the point where it did damage to my well-being. It took therapy, time, and a lot of help from friends who validated my feelings.
Now that I know how much it hurt me, I work hard not to let negative feelings build up like that. Finding something, anything, humanizing about the object of my scorn helps. And then there are those who just aren't worth the effort, straw dogs.
Posts: 122 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2009
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I consider it a victory if I can spend a decent block of my waking hours without thinking of these people, which is difficult because of their ubiquitous media presence. On the other hand, I feel that as a conscientious citizen I can't just bury myself in my personal life and pretend these people don't exist, because they do, and their existence has negative consequences for everyone.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
These people do exist. Variations on the theme of awful people have existed in our history until humankind knoweth not to the contrary.
Variations on the theme will exist until all of life on earth is snuffed out by some cosmic cataclysm.
It is just the way it is.
Why would you dignify them by giving them free rent in your head?
If you want to do something about them - do it. Then, whatever the outcome, you will have done what you can do.
Otherwise, how are you helping yourself by thinking about them?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I got really shitty about Australia's policy on Asylum Seekers a long time ago, and I trusted our centre-right Labor Government to treat them humanely. They didn't, and I stewed. Then the Copenhagen Climate Change conference fell over, and I kind of threw my hands up in the air. I was watching telly and I saw a story of some young hotheads who stopped a coal train on its way to port. I thought, "I can't do that, but I can probably join the Greens."
There was a particular politician who I was very angry with at that time and for quite a while after, as he had cried in Parliament when the other side had set up an offshore detention system, abolished it in Government, and then a year or so later reinstated it. So I hated on Chris Bowen bad. It was his hypocrisy, I said, that I hated most of all.
So I joined the Greens and got involved and started doing letterbox drops for them and handing out how to vote cards. But to be honest, it didn't help. I just got to share my hatred of Chris Bowen with like-minded individuals.
Then some years ago I started taking a bit more notice of the Greens' policy on foreign affairs and peace. I'd pushed it to the back of my mind till then, but really, I am very much opposed to this part of their policy manifesto. So I left formal membership of the party, but continue to pitch in at election time.
I was talking to my wife about it after this, and she mentioned that she didn't think Bowen had cried in Parliament at all. That seemed to change things for me, emotionally. He was a hypocrite, but he hadn't cried... I still seethe when I see him on TV, but I don't feel the need to destroy things anymore. Really, I think it was time and the advent of even more hateful policy that allowed me to be free.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I consider it a victory if I can spend a decent block of my waking hours without thinking of these people, which is difficult because of their ubiquitous media presence.
So you're not actually talking about Hitler and Stalin then. You're talking about your political opponents, whom you choose to compare to Hitler and Stalin as a way of expressing your dislike of their policies.
Are they hate-filled, motivated by hatred ? I suggest that you have no idea - you don't know them well enough, personally enough, off camera.
In calling them "hateful" you're projecting your feelings into them, treating the badness as an attribute of them as people, rather than an attribute of the ideas that they hold or an attribute of your feelings towards those ideas.
It's something many of us struggle with, but my tuppenceworth is that that sort of projection isn't healthy.
You're asking us "what do I do with my feelings of hate ?" And I don't know much of the answer, but part of it will be owning those feelings as something that says vastly more about you than it says about those whom you hate. Who are your fellow humans misguided, not demons.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
The first of the question is, what do we do internally with our rage.
I think that is the key question. Rage is something which happens to us, and we have to take responsibility for that happening.
One of the things we know is "act in haste, repent at leisure". We also talk about "the heat of the moment". And rage can provoke us to act in haste, do things which we will regret.
So controlling rage, managing our anger, are matters of personal responsibility. But having achieved that, actually no small feat, there may still be within us a sense of injustice about the behaviour of others. And that is completely justified. People commit acts of inexcusable cruelty, and I think it is wrong to excuse those acts, minimise their wrongness.
RuthW is also right; we may underestimate our own propensity to do inexcusably cruel things, given sufficient pressure or provocation. "It is unwise to drive anyone beyond a certain point". It is also unwise to underestimate the power of self-righteousness, also to push us in that direction. "Killing's too good for them".
So it seems to me right to focus on justice, which needs to be administered impartially and coolly. When angry and bitter about hateful deeds, I think it better to delegate justice to folks less emotionally engaged than I am. And that way avoid confusing vengeance with justice.
Human justice is an imperfect process. There are plenty of cases where people, deeply wronged, are justified in believing those who have hurt them, or their friends/relatives, have not been subject to the demands of justice. Yet it seems to me to be better to leave justice in the hands of others. We may get closure that way.
Forgiveness is a personal decision. Personally, I would never talk glibly about the imperative to forgive. Right now, I am really struggling with this issue, after experiencing some inexcusable behaviour from someone I thought I could trust. It's easy to be glib if you're not on the receiving end. Even though I don't think I will ever trust this person again, I think forgiveness may free me from the danger of bitterness. I just can't get there right now. Maybe later.
I'm grateful to LutheranChik, not for the first time on these boards, for airing a genuinely difficult issue and allowing space for folks to talk about what it is really like for them.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I consider it a victory if I can spend a decent block of my waking hours without thinking of these people, which is difficult because of their ubiquitous media presence.
So you're not actually talking about Hitler and Stalin then. You're talking about your political opponents, whom you choose to compare to Hitler and Stalin as a way of expressing your dislike of their policies.
Are they hate-filled, motivated by hatred ? I suggest that you have no idea - you don't know them well enough, personally enough, off camera.
In calling them "hateful" you're projecting your feelings into them, treating the badness as an attribute of them as people, rather than an attribute of the ideas that they hold or an attribute of your feelings towards those ideas.
It's something many of us struggle with, but my tuppenceworth is that that sort of projection isn't healthy.
Projection isn't healthy, but I don't think that's what's going on here. We can and will make observations about others and draw conclusions. That can go off the rails if we make too many assumptions or hold too firmly to first impressions w/o being open to new information. But observation/evaluation is key to learning. And it is essential to self-preservation, especially when it comes to people in power.
When it comes to the current POTUS and his appointees, for example, there is a pattern that can and should be observed. Among many things that have been observed, one that has been recently noted by none other than a former president of his own party: "casual cruelty". There IS a pattern of observable behavior that makes harsh and extreme decisions that seem to serve no purpose other than to create suffering. We can see this in the details of the enforcement of the travel ban, immigration policy/DACA, health care reform. Even if you agree in theory with the policy changes, each has been enacted in ways that seemed designed to create maximum pain and suffering (e.g. separating children from parents, detaining elderly, etc). And each revelation of suffering has been met with a large degree of callousness, if not delight. Detailing all the evidence for this would be a thread in and of it's own right. But I would suggest that "casual cruelty" Is as effective a measurement of "hatefulness" as you're apt to get.
A recent article made what I found a helpful insight: "name-calling" is wrong/unhelpful, but "naming"-- effective descriptive truth-telling-- is essential. I recognize the line between "name-calling" and "naming" may be very blurry and prone to bias, but that is true of most things that are really valuable.
Where I would agree with your comments is that projection is not healthy, and indeed, I think that's what LC Is getting at with her question. But I would suggest the problem is the other way around-- that the danger of "naming" is that we notice, attend to, and perhaps even obsess over the things we have just named. The old saying "choose your enemies carefully for you shall be like them" holds true here-- the danger of becoming hateful about the hateful and thereby dehumanizing them in the same way they have dehumanized others. I don't think that is a reason to avoid "naming"-- I think truth-telling is absolutely vital right now, more than ever. But we have to do so carefully, in a way that carefully attends as well to our own emotional/spiritual health. I believe that's what LC's question is getting at. I know it is mine.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I'm grateful to LutheranChik, not for the first time on these boards, for airing a genuinely difficult issue and allowing space for folks to talk about what it is really like for them.
Yes, this.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I'm grateful to LutheranChik, not for the first time on these boards, for airing a genuinely difficult issue and allowing space for folks to talk about what it is really like for them.
Yes, this.
Me too, I've found this thread moving and helpful.
One of the most intense bouts of hatred I endured for a long time was towards the husband of a close friend. He would hit her regularly and she would confide in me. She'd joke about it, minimise it (even a broken arm at one point) and then she'd make me promise not to tell anyone. I was young and quite immature, she was someone I'd known at school. Many nights I lay awake planning how to kill him and get away with it.
As anyone who has worked with battered women knows, the repetitious cycle goes round and round interminably. He would hit her, she would threaten to leave him, he'd apologise and say it would never happen again, she'd forgive him and then confide in me. I'd not forgive him and rage inwardly, worry myself sick because it was getting worse.
When I realised finally that I was feeling the emotions my friend refused to feel, and that my 'hatred' was a way of feeling on her behalf what she could not or would not feel, the dynamic changed. I distanced from her because she wasn't going to do anything about the battering. I phoned him and told him to stop it or I would call the police and report him, even if his wife denied it. He sounded shocked and utterly horrified, promised he'd never do it again. I called her sister and discovered she had been going through the same struggle as a confidante for years.
And once it was out in the open, I felt completely different. I still detested what he was doing, but it wasn't my personal issue, never had been.
[ 23. October 2017, 06:35: Message edited by: MaryLouise ]
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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”
-- Ivy Compton-Burnett
Posts: 646 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Barnabas et al.: Thank you. I know I'm not the only one who has been struggling with these feelings.
Russ: it's ironic that an anonymous Internet voice who doesn't know me from boo would be chiding me for " projecting hatefulness" onto people I don't know personally. (As I think Maya Angelou once noted, when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time -- and people like 45, Bannon, Spencer et al have certainly given us plenty of material with which to make informed judgents of their haracter.) And, speaking of peojection, what a glorious example of thst you've provided -- mansplaining my feelings and motivations.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Could it be why we have the personification of the Devil/Evil One? Is it OK to hate him?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
C'mon... He's just doing his job ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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