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Source: (consider it) Thread: Trigger Warnings
Helen-Eva
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As I understand it a TRIGGER warning specifically is not a general warning that something may be upsetting or offensive but a specific warning to those who may have a big reaction to a subject for mental health/person history reasons. For example, you would put a trigger warning on a rape scene so that anyone who had been raped would know in advance.

I think conflating trigger warnings with general warnings isn't helpful because it makes the actual trigger warnings seem less significant.

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
OK, what does this trigger? Is there any implicit moral restraint of adult consensual sexual permissiveness in Christianity apart from untreatable super-gonorrhoea risk?

Is that a response to something I wrote? If so, I don't understand it.

I'd have thought that someone who experienced sexual violence might well feel unwell if they happened to accidentally see it in an art magazine.

Of course, there is the question of whether someone browsing an art magazine ought to expect to see stylised sexual violence.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

I think conflating trigger warnings with general warnings isn't helpful because it makes the actual trigger warnings seem less significant.

That's true, although where is it happening? Even the issue with Shakespeare is arguably about seeing something that could trigger something in a victim of violence (or whatever).

--

Regarding the general issue of "general" warnings;

On the one hand, it might be fair to say that Shakespeare has been around long enough that students ought to be aware of the content - but couldn't one also say the same about the holocaust or slavery?

Students have to learn some time. They're going to be first exposed to the images of the holocaust and the lynching stories somewhere.

They might walk into an exhibition knowing it is about the holocaust but be unaware of the images or unaware of how it might affect them.

It seems to me to be a fair use of the term "trigger warning" to be a warning, particularly towards vulnerable groups, that there could be something here that triggers strong emotions (and might dredge up various other things). Pre-warnings might not mean that people are pre-armed with the knowledge that they're going to get, but it seems to me to be a fair thing to try.

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arse

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Eirenist
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Surely we are accustomed to warnings in news programmes on TV that 'This report contains images that aome viewers may find distressing'.
What's new?

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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

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Helen-Eva
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

I think conflating trigger warnings with general warnings isn't helpful because it makes the actual trigger warnings seem less significant.

That's true, although where is it happening?
I meant I thought it was happening in this thread - that the two things were getting conflated. Both kinds of warnings can be valid but they are not the same thing.

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
OK, what does this trigger? Is there any implicit moral restraint of adult consensual sexual permissiveness in Christianity apart from untreatable super-gonorrhoea risk?

Is that a response to something I wrote? If so, I don't understand it.

I'd have thought that someone who experienced sexual violence might well feel unwell if they happened to accidentally see it in an art magazine.

Of course, there is the question of whether someone browsing an art magazine ought to expect to see stylised sexual violence.

'strewth! Send three and four pence we're going to a dance! Sorry, I was trying out at least two birds with one stone and failed to hit any. Where did the violence come from?

In a community where we're dominantly liberal on sexual orientation and on another axis tend to be liberal on sex; who does what, where, when beyond gender configurations, I thought I'd try a multi-trigger question prompted by the BBC.

[ 23. October 2017, 11:56: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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wild haggis
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What I want to know is:
If you can't go to lectures because you can't abide violence, and you are studying English which includes Shakespeare, how are you going to pass your exams for your English degree?

It can get seriously silly.

Maybe I should stop writing because it involves spelling and I was thumped every night because I couldn't learn spellings - I'm dyslexic!

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wild haggis

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
What I want to know is:
If you can't go to lectures because you can't abide violence, and you are studying English which includes Shakespeare, how are you going to pass your exams for your English degree?

It can get seriously silly.

Well, y'know, different people are different. Maybe this was an exaggeration and unnecessary - or maybe there was someone who was absolutely comfortable reading the text and absolutely comfortable watching actors giving the lines but has a problem if - hypothetically, I've no idea what actually happened - the lecturer spent a lot of gory time exploring something of the background to the violence.

quote:
Maybe I should stop writing because it involves spelling and I was thumped every night because I couldn't learn spellings - I'm dyslexic!
I don't understand this.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

In a community where we're dominantly liberal on sexual orientation and on another axis tend to be liberal on sex; who does what, where, when beyond gender configurations, I thought I'd try a multi-trigger question prompted by the BBC.

I don't know Martin. When I was a student I spent a lot of time studying botany (and other biological subjects focusing on things that didn't tend to move very quickly). Parts of that involved violence (of a kind), reproductive and sexual behaviour of various organisms.

I suppose if part of that course had included graphic sex of a kind we did not shy away in plants - but instead about humans - one might have an argument that it isn't anything shocking because we're all adults here and we live in a permissive society and so on.

I can't think at the moment what possible connection it could be to plants, but let's just imagine that there was something connecting the ideas.

I say that it is perfectly possible for someone who is scarred by human sexual abuse to talk normally about plant sex without the need for a trigger warning. But y'know, surprise surprise, that person might be triggered if the conversation suddenly turned towards human sex.

Yes, it is different with Shakespeare. But I'm not convinced it is so different. It depends who the audience is, it depends on what is being said during the lecture, it depends on how prepared everyone is for the discussion.

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arse

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Martin60
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Excellent point, but I don't know how we got there (it'll be me), not that it matters.

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Love wins

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Surely we are accustomed to warnings in news programmes on TV that 'This report contains images that aome viewers may find distressing'.
What's new?

Well, a few possibilities...

As a matter of basic social snobbery, "populist" mediums like TV and pop music are subject to greater regulation than "elite" mediums like writing. Fundamentalist Christians, for example, fretted about Iron Maiden singing, with at least nominal disapproval, about The Number Of The Beast. They didn't seem to care nearly as much about W.B. Yeats outright CELEBRATING the slouching of said creature toward its birth.

Also, television is arguably a more "envelopoing" medium than books, by which I mean, it's sort of "all around us", and while, yes, technically you can turn it off, it's such a part of our everyday environement, most people are just sort of resigned to passively consuming it.

Whereas books you have to go out of your way to buy and read, so you'll presumably give some thought to what's inside the covers before doing so. Hence, less of a perceived need for trigger warnings.

Also, there is the simple cognitive difference between seeing something and reading about it. "What has been seen cannot be unseen" is a cautionary preface. I know of no similar expression related to reading.

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LutheranChik
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Martin: What?

Re the overuse of " triggering": I agree that the concept can be misused by people who may simply be made uncomfortable by some topic. When you have or know someone with PTSD, who has very concrete symptoms of physical as well as mental distress, you don't have a lot of sympathy for, say, a,college student who claims " triggering" at the thought of reading The Odyssey because there's sex and violence in it...or maybe because they just don't want to read it.

But I'm not sure me-too-ism can be controlled. Think about the gluten- free phenomenon, and how people with no digestive problems embrace gluten-free eating despite a lack of evidencle that it doesn't benefit anyone who doesn't have a diagnosed gluten intolerance. Some people always want to appropriate someone else's issue for their own purposes (whether they're cognizant of that fact or not.)

I don't care for the term " trigger warning" either, outside a clinical context.

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Lamb Chopped
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Since we're discussing Shakespeare...

I stayed away from Julius Caesar at the height of the hell-that-was-my-church-life in 2004 because I couldn't cope with the literal backstabbing and themes of betrayal, and all my PTSD was boiling over at the thought.

That said, I wouldn't expect anybody to have to warn me that Shakespeare/JC had a violent scene in it. If I hadn't known already, I would have found out when I did my due diligence before choosing to (not) go.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:

That said, I much prefer the term “content note” to “trigger warning”. Partly because it’s much less loaded, and also because you don’t necessarily have to have PTSD to find a particular subject upsetting.

I would agree on this. Form matters.

quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:

But I'm not sure me-too-ism can be controlled. Think about the gluten- free phenomenon, and how people with no digestive problems embrace gluten-free eating despite a lack of evidencle that it doesn't benefit anyone who doesn't have a diagnosed gluten intolerance. Some people always want to appropriate someone else's issue for their own purposes (whether they're cognizant of that fact or not.)

I think this is part of what bothers me about trigger warning phenomena.

Though the gluten-free mania has been a godsend to those with real problems, such as celiac's disease, I don't think the trigger warnings will provide as much benefit to trauma victims.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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LutheranChik
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I also meant to say, no evidence of benefit. In case some of yoi are wondering if I'm drinking, LOL...we are shopping forr an Internet provider, so at the moment I'm tapping away at my small- screen smartphone with my fat fingers. Sometimes I catch my typos in edit mode, sometimes not.I used to proofread for a living, so this situation drives me crazy.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

On the one hand, it might be fair to say that Shakespeare has been around long enough that students ought to be aware of the content - but couldn't one also say the same about the holocaust or slavery?

In this particular context, it was a lecture about Titus Andronicus at Cambridge. If you haven't at least read the play before going to the lecture, you're at the wrong university. This is not General Hand-Holding 101.

In the more general case, there's a question about what you do with the content warnings. Outside the ivory tower, there are lots of things that people have to do that are profoundly unpleasant. Some police officers have to look through photographs and videos of the worst kinds of child sexual abuse, in order to try to identify the victims, gather evidence for prosecution, and so on. If you are yourself a victim of child sexual abuse, you might not find yourself able to cope with that, which just means that you're not suited for that particular role.

If, on the other hand, encountering any rape victim is going to give you debilitating flashbacks to your own rape, perhaps you're not suited to a career as a police officer at all (if you're a cop, you can probably avoid getting on the "watching child porn" detail, but you can't avoid being the available car when someone calls in a rape.)

So I suppose I'm OK with content warnings (specific content warnings, not the anodyne "some viewers might find this distressing" nonsense) particularly where the content might be a surprise or more extreme than expected. People's responses are likely to be so varied to such a range of potential triggers that it's got to be down to the individual to manage their exposure, and seek help/advice from the tutors if they think they can't cope with a particular topic.

And depending on the topic and the subject, the answer might be "well, OK, try this instead" or it might be "this is too important - if you can't manage this, we'll need to find you a different course to take."

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
In this particular context, it was a lecture about Titus Andronicus at Cambridge. If you haven't at least read the play before going to the lecture, you're at the wrong university. This is not General Hand-Holding 101.

Not quite, it was the timetable of lectures.

I did languages at Cambridge. Generally speaking, there are far more set texts on any literature course list than it is humanly possible to read and do justice to. You are expected to work out which ones interest you most and study them. If you are affected by triggers then one way of making that decision might be by identifying which texts are least likely to cause you problems.

Also, unless things have changed recently, Cambridge lectures are public. The Lecture List is a public document that is sold in bookshops and stationers. Anyone can turn up, not just students enrolled in the course.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Though the gluten-free mania has been a godsend to those with real problems, such as celiac's disease, I don't think the trigger warnings will provide as much benefit to trauma victims.

That's not what my adult child with celiac disease says. Rather, the gluten free mania has made many to think it is a mere dietary preference like being vegetarian rather than something to which exposure can lead to days of severe symptoms and physical health compromise. With specific situations of carelessness or dismissiveness.
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Anselmina
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Not really trigger warnings but increasingly soaps on the TV tend to have end-credit announcements along the lines of 'If you've been affected by any issue in this programme then contact our helpline number etc...'.

While I think it's very laudable, there's always a selfish part of me that wants to scream back; yeah, I've been affected by your shite, predictable, lazy, repetitive plot-lines where character development and dramatic integrity has yet again been sacrificed for the sake of fucking ratings and award-shows, and now I feel depressed, world-weary and completely enervated. What are you going to do about THAT!

Don't worry about telling me not to watch by the way. It's only when the Mater visits that I feel compelled to be sociable and stay in the room while she trawls through another saga of adultery, murder, dishonesty, and stupidity that represents most of British soap these days. It's a standing joke between us! [Big Grin]

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LutheranChik
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Random thought: I wonder if the bowlderization of children's literature has anything to do with the overuse of " trigger warnings."

My granddaughters' parents are so obsessive about vetting their books for violent, racist, etc.content that we can't read them, say, the Little House books by Laura Ingalls Wilder because Pa gives spankings, anialls get butchered, etc. Andrew Lang's fairy tale collections? Nope.Alce in Wonderland? Nope.

What happens to this generation when they hit high school age and have to start reading un- censored loterature?

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Also, unless things have changed recently, Cambridge lectures are public. The Lecture List is a public document that is sold in bookshops and stationers. Anyone can turn up, not just students enrolled in the course. [/QB]

And you've got 8 weeks*, waiting till after you've read the play to decide it's not the best one to study is wasting prep time that could have been spent on the MWoW.
(and if the exams are anything like physics, even though 'Shakespeare' is compulsory there is space to gamble on dropping one topic, and hope like hell the others don't do anything evil).

*I don't know if 'Shakespeare' fills one term or has one 'topic' each term.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Though the gluten-free mania has been a godsend to those with real problems, such as celiac's disease, I don't think the trigger warnings will provide as much benefit to trauma victims.

That's not what my adult child with celiac disease says. Rather, the gluten free mania has made many to think it is a mere dietary preference like being vegetarian rather than something to which exposure can lead to days of severe symptoms and physical health compromise. With specific situations of carelessness or dismissiveness.
Fair play, but I was referencing the availability of gluten-free items, something an acquaintance of mine with celiac's has found that has made her shopping easier. So a mixed-bag, then.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Random thought: I wonder if the bowlderization of children's literature has anything to do with the overuse of " trigger warnings."

Nothing new. Grimm's Faerie Tales were reworked from the second edition on.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

I did languages at Cambridge. Generally speaking, there are far more set texts on any literature course list than it is humanly possible to read and do justice to.

Yes, of course. I remember my language-reading friends skimming a rather large number of books every week, and properly reading a subset of those. I don't think any of them would have wasted their time by attending a lecture on something they'd never seen, unless they were keeping a friend company. But, of course, YMMV.

(Is that "public" meaning anyone, or "public" meaning any member of the University?)

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Ricardus
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But you're assuming no-one would look at the Lecture List until they've read the text.

Whereas it seems likely to me that students would look at it at the start of the year to make calculations like 'Titus Andronicus isn't until February - I don't have to read it until January.'

(I was told that lectures are open to the general public although I suspect the number of people who avail themselves of this opportunity approaches zero.)

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Golden Key
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Ricardus--

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
But you're assuming no-one would look at the Lecture List until they've read the text.

Whereas it seems likely to me that students would look at it at the start of the year to make calculations like 'Titus Andronicus isn't until February - I don't have to read it until January.'

Hmmm. When I was in college here in the US, I don't think we ever had a lecture list, per se, for in-person classes. (Usually did, for online classes.) We did get textbook lists; but sometimes that was before the first class, and sometimes during the first class.

As to when students would read work for a February class: probably the weekend of the first full week of the class. If not later.
[Smile]

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:


(I was told that lectures are open to the general public although I suspect the number of people who avail themselves of this opportunity approaches zero.)

I've tried to fact-check this but haven't found anything suggesting it is true.

It is entirely possible it was true at one point (or perhaps it just means that anyone who is a "member of the university" can attend lectures or something) but it looks like the university has a specific programme of public lectures to which the public are invited.

Of course many universities are now much more security conscious than they were, I doubt even Cambridge would be keen to have random people using their facilities in the general way today.

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arse

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
But you're assuming no-one would look at the Lecture List until they've read the text.

Whereas it seems likely to me that students would look at it at the start of the year to make calculations like 'Titus Andronicus isn't until February - I don't have to read it until January.'

(I was told that lectures are open to the general public although I suspect the number of people who avail themselves of this opportunity approaches zero.)

Only thing approaching figures I could find is this from 2007 here.

[ 24. October 2017, 07:35: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Only thing approaching figures I could find is this from 2007 here.

Which I think refers to specific programs of public lectures - rather than allowing public access into 'normal' undergrad lectures.
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Ricardus
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Yes, on Googling I think mr cheesy is correct and I misunderstood, misremembered or made it up completely.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Random thought: I wonder if the bowlderization of children's literature has anything to do with the overuse of " trigger warnings."

I believe the vast majority of 19th century bowdlerization was done by clerics in order to protect public morals and had nothing to do with trigger warnings

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irreverend tod
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What hasn't been mentioned by any UK residents is a recent article somewhere or other in the press (can't be more specific) that suggests we should be reading the King James Version of the bible in schools as it is properly graphic and doesn't soften some of the OT bits. The reason being that the kids see such graphic stuff that it wouldn't be a shock. No suggestion of a trigger warning as it isn't felt to be needed. Reactions?

On a more personal note if there is a sudden loud shot/explosion type noise near me, I'll be under the nearest table with my heart going like a jack hammer. You don't get trigger warnings for that so I have to put up with it.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by irreverend tod:
What hasn't been mentioned by any UK residents is a recent article somewhere or other in the press (can't be more specific) that suggests we should be reading the King James Version of the bible in schools as it is properly graphic and doesn't soften some of the OT bits. The reason being that the kids see such graphic stuff that it wouldn't be a shock. No suggestion of a trigger warning as it isn't felt to be needed. Reactions?


I think there are very few bible stories which should be read by children without proper context. Even then, a large number are not suitable for young children (and some are not really suitable for anyone).

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Russ
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
For those with genuine trauma in their past, foreknowledge of exposure is kindness.

You have the right word.

If a warning is written as a kindness and read as a kindness, no problem.

If it's written as a kindness, and read as something else (an entitlement ? patronising ?) then there's a failure of communication. Which both parties, writer and reader, should attempt to resolve.

If it's not written as a kindness, but as something else (disclaimer of liability ? display of keeping up with social trends ?) then the writer is fair game for any mockery that's going...

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simontoad
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Trigger warning (It's a cute dog)

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Human

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Random thought: I wonder if the bowlderization of children's literature has anything to do with the overuse of " trigger warnings."

I believe the vast majority of 19th century bowdlerization was done by clerics in order to protect public morals and had nothing to do with trigger warnings
True, but I think these days, "bowdlerization" is used to mean any instance of removing words or passages from a text because they're considered objectionable.

And I'm not sure if the original bowdlerizer(that would be Bowdler) was trying to protect the public generally, or just provide a suitable text for reading to children.

The Family Shakspeare

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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L'organist
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Don't be unkind about Bowdler: sometimes his alterations enabled a child to make sense of things.

For example, his removal of a vital 's' in Othello to give the line She played the trumpet in his bed gave a (to the schoolboy mind) reasonable cause for killing Desdemona.

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simontoad
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lol. I know what it says to my schoolboy mind.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
And I'm not sure if the original bowdlerizer(that would be Bowdler) was trying to protect the public generally, or just provide a suitable text for reading to children.

Well, the younger part of the public.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Huia
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

For example, his removal of a vital 's' in Othello to give the line She played the trumpet in his bed gave a (to the schoolboy mind) reasonable cause for killing Desdemona.

The bagpipes would have been worse.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Not really trigger warnings but increasingly soaps on the TV tend to have end-credit announcements along the lines of 'If you've been affected by any issue in this programme then contact our helpline number etc...'.

While I think it's very laudable, there's always a selfish part of me that wants to scream back; yeah, I've been affected by your shite, predictable, lazy, repetitive plot-lines where character development and dramatic integrity has yet again been sacrificed for the sake of fucking ratings and award-shows, and now I feel depressed, world-weary and completely enervated. What are you going to do about THAT! ...

That gets a [Overused]

If one were allowed to extend it to 'serious' drama that projects modern issues back into the past so as to make history more 'relevant' or to proselytise for the establishment's pet hobby-horses of the moment, I'd give it another. Viz Victoria, which has to include an obligatory gay sub-plot for which, as far as I know, there's no historical evidence whatsoever.

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Moo

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In addition to things he considered improper, Bowdler deleted all mention of God. [Ultra confused]

There is a line in "Romeo and Juliet" where he changed, "She is with God." to "She sleeps in the churchyard."

I can't imagine why he did this.

Moo

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
In addition to things he considered improper, Bowdler deleted all mention of God. [Ultra confused]

There is a line in "Romeo and Juliet" where he changed, "She is with God." to "She sleeps in the churchyard."

I can't imagine why he did this.

Moo

Probably, at that date, because of a belief that it was irreverent that God should be mentioned in the theatre.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Moo

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But Bowdler wasn't suggesting that his work should be used in theaters; it was for family reading.

Moo

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Stetson
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My guess would be that some of the things considered okay for Christians to do in Shakspeare's time would have been regarded as a little off-base by the 19th Century.

For example, Prince Hamlet is portrayed both as a righteous Christian, AND as a wannabe vigilante seeking eye-for-an-eye vengeance on his uncle. That was probably accepted as laudable behaviour in Tudor England, where people could be executed for all sorts of trivial crimes, but there might have been a bit more doubt about that creeping in by the time Family Shakspeare was written, especially among people who gave serious thought to what the Bible teaches.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
For example, Prince Hamlet is portrayed both as a righteous Christian, AND as a wannabe vigilante seeking eye-for-an-eye vengeance on his uncle.

Actually the one thing Hamlet was NOT depicted as, is a wannabe vigilante seeking eye-for-eye vengeance on his uncle. He machinates to make his uncle feel guilty. But never does anything at all toward killing him. That's the heart of the play -- why the hell doesn't he act? Why doesn't he try to kill his uncle? He never does kill him, or plot to.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Stetson
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Well, I've always read the play as assuming for its moral premise that revenge is a good thing, but Hamlet for whatever reason can't bring himself to do it.

Now, if you think that his reluctance to act is resulting from some belief, shared by Shakespeare, that revenge is wrong, then my interpretation doesn't work. That was never how I interpreted Hamlet's inaction, however. I think the idea is we are supposed to want him to take revenge against his uncle, but he messes everything up by hesitating.

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Huia
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
In addition to things he considered improper, Bowdler deleted all mention of God. [Ultra confused]

There is a line in "Romeo and Juliet" where he changed, "She is with God." to "She sleeps in the churchyard."

I can't imagine why he did this.

Moo

Possibly because she committed suicide and therefore wasn't (in his opinion) fit for heaven.

Interesting though, because I understood that historically suicides were buried outside the churchyard.

Huia

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Stetson
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Well, if Bowdler deleted ALL mention of God, as has been stated, then there might have been no particular reason for the Juliet exemption, beyond adherence to his general policy.
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simontoad
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quote:
If one were allowed to extend it to 'serious' drama that projects modern issues back into the past so as to make history more 'relevant' or to proselytise for the establishment's pet hobby-horses of the moment, I'd give it another. Viz Victoria, which has to include an obligatory gay sub-plot for which, as far as I know, there's no historical evidence whatsoever.
I hate it when I pick that stuff up. I much prefer it when I miss it and can bliss out.

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