homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Trump's Benghazi (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Trump's Benghazi
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
While some may think this should have gone under the Trump Discussion thread, I think it is of serious consequences to have its own thread. As you know, a couple of weeks ago, four American Green Berets were killed by ISIS-linked fighters in an Ambush. Over the past week, there has been a war of words between Florida Representative Maxine Waters, the family of the black soldier that was killed, and the Trump administration.

That war of words has served to detract us from looking at what happened in that firefight.

Here is what we know:

These soldiers went to a meeting in an area near the border with Mali. This is a well known hot spot for ISIS activity.

Our soldiers were not backed up by US Military air support. No, they were backed up by the French, who were not authorized to intervene or even fire a shot.

Our soldiers did not have armored vehicles. They traveled in pickup trucks.

Our soldiers were given faulty intel that said "it was unlikely that they would meet any hostile forces." Of course, they walked into an ISIS ambush. It was chaotic and they took three casualties.

It took the French 30 minutes to arrive. When they did, they were not authorized to help. So, a dozen of our Green Berets fought a battle with more than 50 ISIS fighters, without help, for 30 minutes.

Finally, a rescue helicopter arrived, but it was not a US military helicopter. No, we apparently outsourced that job to “private contractors.” So, these contractors landed and loaded the remaining troops, the injured and the dead.

Here's where this gets really bad ....

Because they were not military, they never did a head count. That is how Sgt. La David Johnson was left behind.

That's right .... they left him behind.

According to the Pentagon, his locator beacon was activated on the battlefield, which indicates that he was alive when they left him there.

They recovered his body 48 hours later, but are refusing to say where. According to his widow, she was told that she could not have an open casket funeral. This indicates that he was mutilated after being left behind on the battlefield.

This is what led to the nonsense Trump has been obsessing over. This is the real story. As usual, we have been allowing it to be about Trump's distraction, but this is Benghazi on steroids.

The Trump Pentagon gave these men bad intel, no support, outsourced rescue people and then tried for more than a week to pretend it never happened.

In that time, Trump spoke on many occasions and never mentioned it. He tweeted attacks on many but never mentioned these men.

Only after pressure from the media has he bothered to even acknowledge these men and their service

Posts: 2068 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

 - Posted      Profile for Og, King of Bashan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This Spring, I checked out “A Great Place to Have a War: America in Laos and the Birth of a Military CIA,” by Joshua Kurlantzick, from the local library.

Basic thesis: This is how we fight wars today.

It inevitably leads to fuck-ups, which people naturally try to cover up, and whoever is out of the White House makes a stink when the fuck-ups do happen.

You don’t have to like it, and we should be upset about the lives lost- it’s still someone’s kid, husband, or dad. But we shouldn’t be surprised when it happens.

[ 22. October 2017, 03:01: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]

--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3161 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607

 - Posted      Profile for Ohher   Author's homepage   Email Ohher   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Over the past week, there has been a war of words between Florida Representative Maxine Waters, the family of the black soldier that was killed, and the Trump administration.

Rep. Maxine Waters represents California. I think you mean Representative Frederica Wilson, who does in fact represent Florida.

--------------------
From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

Posts: 282 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Shit happens.

But it happens more often when you have different organisations on the same battlefield. Privatised parts of the military is a particularly bad idea, but I reckon its gone on for a long time.

I don't think Clinton did anything wrong at all concerning what happened in Libya, and I don't think anything blameworthy happened here that can be sheeted home to Trump. I hope it prompts a review and necessary corrective reform.

Trump tries to score points out of death all the time, and his frenemies in the Republican party are past masters at it. I don't want to see the Democrats do it. I don't like it. I just want the problem on the battlefield fixed.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1288 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I don't think Clinton did anything wrong at all concerning what happened in Libya, and I don't think anything blameworthy happened here that can be sheeted home to Trump. I hope it prompts a review and necessary corrective reform.

Wot he sed. And Og [sounds like an interesting read].

Also the circumstances also seem a bit different to me. Comparisons could be misleading.

Posts: 7580 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607

 - Posted      Profile for Ohher   Author's homepage   Email Ohher   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
While some may think this should have gone under the Trump Discussion thread,

I am one of the potential "some."

--------------------
From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

Posts: 282 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why would the crew of a military helicopter do a headcount and why wouldn't the crew of a non-military one? I'm not impressed at a special forces unit being ambushed at all, let alone 5:1? And special forces are trained to assume ambush and overcome it. Since Nam if not Borneo. 12-3 casualties = 9 including the guy left behind. How? He must have been unconscious, isolated? How? None of the 8 guys who weren't hit didn't notice? There was no senior man present to take command? Do a roll call? Count? His own MEN?

Thanks Obama.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm not impressed at a special forces unit being ambushed at all, let alone 5:1?

It happens.
quote:

And special forces are trained to assume ambush and overcome it.

They are trained to be cautious. And they are trained to fight effectively and well which means they are more formidable than a conventional or irregular force. They are not trained to be invincible.
quote:

There was no senior man present to take command? Do a roll call? Count? His own MEN?

This is the part that bothers me. This is what should have been done. Difficult to assess chaos from one's comfy chair, though.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17128 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

There was no senior man present to take command? Do a roll call? Count? His own MEN?

This is the part that bothers me. This is what should have been done. Difficult to assess chaos from one's comfy chair, though. [/QB]
Yes. We have to be careful not to 2nd guess an experience I, thankfully, have never had to face. Yet there are very real questions, that are obscured (perhaps intentionally, perhaps not) but the really messed up response to the deaths. What we can say for certain is this:

1. That POTUS has zero empathy and no capacity to express sympathy, even feigned, is a given. Move on.

2. There are serious questions re what happened and why that must be explored.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11132 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have a question, what were they doing there in the first place ? Is this another war we haven't heard about ?

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19194 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I have a question, what were they doing there in the first place ? Is this another war we haven't heard about ?

War on terror

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17128 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
...
There was no senior man present to take command? Do a roll call? Count? His own MEN?

This is the part that bothers me. This is what should have been done. Difficult to assess chaos from one's comfy chair, though.
If I understood some reporting correctly, they knew he was missing, but didn't publicize it for fear that others would go looking and find him first.

Re: the closed casket - non-sinister, though still distressing reasons could be animal scavenging and decay.

The outrage and distraction over Trump's treatment military families is just that: outrage creating distraction. And then there's the pile-on on Rachel Maddow, which seems to have started with one junior faculty member at some college I've never heard of saying, "That's crazy" followed up by everyone else chorusing "conspiracymongering".There seems to be a lot of distraction and no official explanation of how or why those soldiers were attacked, having patrolled the area multiple times before.

I suspect that Trump has a very negative view of ordinary soldiers. Based on his history, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that he thinks that anyone that got drafted was too stupid to NOT get drafted, which makes volunteering even stupider. And that enlisting is for losers who can't find any other kind of work and can't get into college.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5398 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm not impressed at a special forces unit being ambushed at all, let alone 5:1?

It happens.
quote:

And special forces are trained to assume ambush and overcome it.

They are trained to be cautious. And they are trained to fight effectively and well which means they are more formidable than a conventional or irregular force. They are not trained to be invincible.
quote:

There was no senior man present to take command? Do a roll call? Count? His own MEN?

This is the part that bothers me. This is what should have been done. Difficult to assess chaos from one's comfy chair, though.

Invincible or not, the SAS and the SBS have never suffered such a defeat as far as I'm aware. Awareness being the magic word ...

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:

This is what led to the nonsense Trump has been obsessing over. This is the real story. As usual, we have been allowing it to be about Trump's distraction, but this is Benghazi on steroids.

Benghazi becomes Benghazi based on the ability of the opposition to run on the story.
Posts: 3878 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Hiro's Leap

Shipmate
# 12470

 - Posted      Profile for Hiro's Leap   Email Hiro's Leap   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
I suspect that Trump has a very negative view of ordinary soldiers.

There were also his comments about John McCain: "I like people who weren’t captured."
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
I suspect that Trump has a very negative view of ordinary soldiers.

There were also his comments about John McCain: "I like people who weren’t captured."
He divides the world into winners (of which he is one) and losers.
Posts: 3878 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This morning I was talking to the fiancee of an Air Force pilot. She was saying that the military has now put a stop loss on military pilots, meaning they cannot leave the military at the end of their contracts for the duration.

She and her fiance were hoping to get married this summer, and he was planning to start flying for a civilian airline because his contract was terminating. While they may still get married, until the stop loss is lifted he will have to remain in the Air Force.

In addition, the Air Force will be recalling 1,000 recently retired military pilots. As I understand it, while they are not going to be directly flying any combat missions, they will help with training and administrative duties, thus freeing qualified pilot for needed missions

That is one reason why there was no US Air Support available for the mission in Niger--no one was available.

Today, it was reported the General in charge of the African Command is saying he has about 1/3 of the resources he really needs to effectively do his mission.

That is frightening. That means we have to rely on local militaries, on what support the French or the British can give us (other allies as well.)

Seems to me that Jesus once told a parable to the effect if a King was considering going to war, wouldn't he first compare his military strength to the strength of his opponent before going into battle?

American forces are spread just too thin. And guess who is doing a lot of saber-rattling. The Chinese used to call us paper tigers. Well, at this point, it looks like they are right.

And guess who would love to fill the void in Africa. The Chinese.

Posts: 2068 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:

Today, it was reported the General in charge of the African Command is saying he has about 1/3 of the resources he really needs to effectively do his mission.

That is frightening. That means we have to rely on local militaries, on what support the French or the British can give us (other allies as well.)

Seems to me that Jesus once told a parable to the effect if a King was considering going to war, wouldn't he first compare his military strength to the strength of his opponent before going into battle?

American forces are spread just too thin. And guess who is doing a lot of saber-rattling. The Chinese used to call us paper tigers. Well, at this point, it looks like they are right.

And guess who would love to fill the void in Africa. The Chinese.

I think there's an important clarification that needs to be made: our military personnel are spread too thin. As had been noted upthread, we spend several times what any other nation spends on our military-- but that is going to expensive (and often redundant) pork-barrel toys-- not to personnel. When we underfund the VA, when we throw out members of the military whenever it's politically convenient (eg trans ban), when we throw out DACA agreements made on the basis of military service, and when many soldiers make so little that their families qualify for food stamps, is it any wonder we can't get enough people to join up?

But tanks/bomb/big boats/ fancy planes-- those we got plenty of.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11132 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In addition, the Air Force will be recalling 1,000 recently retired military pilots.

Not currently, apparently.

1,500 shortage. Wow.

Posts: 7580 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In addition, the Air Force will be recalling 1,000 recently retired military pilots.

Not currently, apparently.

1,500 shortage. Wow.

In capitalism, if there is a shortage and an inelastic demand, the price goes up. Are they offering pilots or potential more to join the Air Force? If capitalism is right, if they just keep upping the ante, they will fill their ranks and more.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63203 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Invincible or not, the SAS and the SBS have never suffered such a defeat as far as I'm aware. Awareness being the magic word ...

Jesus Fucking Christ, your posts practically glow orange.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17128 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What a multiply ... strange response. Am I wrong? I'm not defending Trump at all, what's he got to do with it? This was a minor serial military disaster. The enemy were completely underestimated and training failed at least twice further.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What has Trump got to do with this? He is the Commander in Chief. The buck stops at his desk.
Posts: 2068 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What a multiply ... strange response.

Your posting history suggests that this is what you best understand.


quote:
Am I wrong? I'm not defending Trump at all, what's he got to do with it? This was a minor serial military disaster. The enemy were completely underestimated and training failed at least twice further.

You, Martin60, do not know everything that might have occurred and yet your first reaction is to blame the soldiers. It reeks of Trumpism.

[ 23. October 2017, 15:43: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17128 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm sure this will also become a selling point for the neo- feudalists' desire for a privatized military, since in their view -- as noted previously -- anything administered by the federal government, using volunteers, has got to be inferior. I can hear Tangerine Mussolini now: " I only have the BEST soldiers..."

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6357 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What a multiply ... strange response.

Your posting history suggests that this is what you best understand.


quote:
Am I wrong? I'm not defending Trump at all, what's he got to do with it? This was a minor serial military disaster. The enemy were completely underestimated and training failed at least twice further.

You, Martin60, do not know everything that might have occurred and yet your first reaction is to blame the soldiers. It reeks of Trumpism.

They got ambushed by a much larger force and left a man behind. That's not random. That's not bad luck. If I blame anything, it's planning, command, intel and training. The French just watching is an obscenity.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
They got ambushed by a much larger force and left a man behind.

They have stated they never left the field until they found him. But, go ahead, settle back in your comfy chair and pontificate. As a style note, I would suggest adding the occasional harumph to your posts.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17128 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Then my apologies to them that they didn't leave a man behind, although Gramps49 said they did. I'm going by what's being said on this thread. Any decent report anywhere? The spirit of the OP was that it's all Trump's fault somehow. That's what I'm responding to. How can what happened on the ground in a minor action have ANYTHING to do with Trump?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Right. Anyone know any more than this?

The French rescued the lightly armed unit: "embedded with a larger unit of Nigerien troops and were attacked as they left a meeting with local community leaders a few dozen kilometres from the remote town of Tongo Tongo.

Some reports claimed US troops were on a mission to kill or capture a high-value target in the area, perhaps even Adnan Abu Walid al-Sahraoui, the leader of the only local faction of fighters to have formally pledged allegiance to the Islamic State.

Given the light armament of the US detachment, the scramble to evacuate them, and the lack of medical backup or reinforcements, this seems unlikely. The US troops were eventually rescued by French aircraft, which flew from bases about 300 miles away in neighbouring Mali."

"Reuters has reported that the US special forces soldiers abandoned, or at least extended, their more limited mission in Tongo Tongo when they learned of a raid nearby, deciding to engage the attackers themselves."

Reuters: God bless the French. "French helicopters, scrambled after the U.S. call for help, evacuated several soldiers wounded in the clash."

"A diplomat with knowledge of the incident said French officials were frustrated by the U.S. troops’ actions, saying they had acted on only limited intelligence and without contingency plans in place."

How prescient of me.

[ 23. October 2017, 17:18: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Even if your presentation is accurate, it is 12 o’clock twice a day.

[ 23. October 2017, 20:26: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17128 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I get lucky by being a stopped clock eh?

If you say so lilBuddha.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

 - Posted      Profile for romanlion     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The spirit of the OP was that it's all Trump's fault somehow. That's what I'm responding to. How can what happened on the ground in a minor action have ANYTHING to do with Trump?

Careful Martin, perspicuity like that will have you back as ship's bio-hazard in a blink!

Haven't you heard? It was the travel ban, man! Only the smartest fella on TV said so.

--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1406 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I get lucky by being a stopped clock eh?


A reasonable response to the OP would be that a minor action isn't likely to be the President's direct responsibility.
Instead, you attack the soldiers without knowing much of anything. I can only speculate on your motive, but I can't think of any that frame your posts in a positive light.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17128 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Martin--

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The spirit of the OP was that it's all Trump's fault somehow. That's what I'm responding to. How can what happened on the ground in a minor action have ANYTHING to do with Trump?

As someone else mentioned, a US president is the Commander-In-Chief of all the US armed forces. How much he knew/ordered about this particular situation, I don't know. But officially the buck stops at the "Resolute" desk in the Oval Office.

Again, Martin, you seem to be defending Trump. Did you happen to see my question to you on the "Oops" thread? Yesterday, I think.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18178 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I have a question, what were they doing there in the first place ? Is this another war we haven't heard about ?

Teaching them democracy if I understand it right. There's quite a bit of killing when you're teaching democracy. They kill you and you kill them, and if you kill more of them than they kill of you, then you've taught them democracy and then their raw materials can be shipped to can be made into stuff you want, which is their thanks for teaching them democracy. Meanwhile it's a kind of thankless job, though safer if you're running drones and going to Walmart before you pick the kids up from school. But sometimes people who knew what they signed up for get killed for no reason except that's exactly where they wanted to be and weren't running drones and going to Walmart, and then their families get phone calls from a leader who has bone spurs, and maybe neurosyphilis.
Posts: 11187 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It is not about teaching democracy. It was about helping central African countries to stand up to military threats, both internal and external. French and British Special Forces are also working with countries in Africa for the same reason.

Congress is now upset that they were not aware of the number of personnel that were in the area. Over 1,000.

Information about the attack continues to dribble out.

The Pentagon now thinks it was a setup. The soldiers had entered a village that was already compromised by ISIS sympathizers. When they left the village, the American and Niger soldiers were confronted with an armed force of about 50 fighters.

The Americans and Nigers were traveling in unarmed SUV's. The fighters they confronted had several technicals--pickups that are armed with .50 caliber machine guns or anti-aircraft guns.

It took about an hour for the Americans to call for Air Support. The nearest support was French Mirage jets who could only buzz the field. They did not have permission to engage the enemy.

Sgt LaDavids body was actually found about a mile away from the area of engagement. How he got there is unknown. It appears it had been severely mutilated because the widow was not permitted to see the body.

Posts: 2068 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It is not about teaching democracy. It was about helping central African countries to stand up to military threats, both internal and external. French and British Special Forces are also working with countries in Africa for the same reason.

Congress is now upset that they were not aware of the number of personnel that were in the area. Over 1,000.

Information about the attack continues to dribble out.

The Pentagon now thinks it was a setup. The soldiers had entered a village that was already compromised by ISIS sympathizers. When they left the village, the American and Niger soldiers were confronted with an armed force of about 50 fighters.

The Americans and Nigers were traveling in unarmed SUV's. The fighters they confronted had several technicals--pickups that are armed with .50 caliber machine guns or anti-aircraft guns.

It took about an hour for the Americans to call for Air Support. The nearest support was French Mirage jets who could only buzz the field. They did not have permission to engage the enemy.

Sgt LaDavids body was actually found about a mile away from the area of engagement. How he got there is unknown. It appears it had been severely mutilated because the widow was not permitted to see the body.

Posts: 2068 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
How much he knew/ordered about this particular situation, I don't know. But officially the buck stops at the "Resolute" desk in the Oval Office.

Honest question. Did the buck stop with Obama in your eyes for all the innocents slaughtered by drone attacks?

I find your comment strange. I do not dispute its veracity, but I find it hard to believe you can blame someone who may not have been (he may have been) directly involved... How detailed does the President's involvement have to be: does he or she need to order every strike?

Genuine questions. I really do not know.

[ 24. October 2017, 06:19: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

Posts: 7580 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Obama said, more than once, that the buck stopped with him. IIRC, sometimes that was after mentioning something that had gone wrong. "But the buck stops with me."

The prez really is the Commander In Chief. How much micro-knowledge and micro-managing is involved, I don't know.

Just now watching Colbert, and evidently the "buck" phrase comes from Pres. Harry Truman--given to blunt comments, to put it mildly, which won him the slogan "Give 'em hell, Harry!"

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18178 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks GK: I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Perhaps it's as I have a different view than what seems popular at the moment, "Someone must be found to blame!", I struggle a bit with the concept. And I honestly thought 'Commander in Chief' was more an honorific these days...I was unaware of the "buck stopping there".

Meanwhile, making a war widow cry. Classy.

Posts: 7580 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sources G49. Your OP is erroneous. How do you know the French airforce couldn't open fire for nonmilitary, non-tactical reasons?

"Dunford acknowledged that nearly three weeks after the attack, many questions remain.

They include whether the U.S. had adequate intelligence, equipment and training,

did they have an accurate assessment of the threat in that area,

how did they become separated in the fight and why did it take so long to recover the body of Sgt. La David Johnson, who was missing for two days before his body was found by Niger troops and turned over to the U.S."

Even Fox reports reasonably.

And somehow this is "Obama"'s fault?

The foreign policy is his responsibility.

The misunderstandings over poor Sergeant Johnson's poor widow will be forever lost in translation.

[ 24. October 2017, 07:57: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ian--

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Thanks GK: I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Perhaps it's as I have a different view than what seems popular at the moment, "Someone must be found to blame!", I struggle a bit with the concept. And I honestly thought 'Commander in Chief' was more an honorific these days...I was unaware of the "buck stopping there".

Here's the US section of Wikipedia's C-in-C article. (That's a common abbreviation.)

Bit of trivia: if a current member of the US military wants to write an opinion piece criticizing the president, they can (because of 1st Amendment)--but they can't identify themselves as being in the military, or give their rank. Otherwise, they're publicly dissing the boss.

And from Wikipedia's "United States Armed Forces" article:
quote:
The United States Armed Forces[6] are the military forces of the United States of America. It consists of the Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard.[7] The President of the United States is the commander-in-chief of the U.S. Armed Forces and forms military policy with the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) and U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS), both federal executive departments, acting as the principal organs by which military policy is carried out. All five armed services are among the seven uniformed services of the United States.[8]


--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18178 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Martin60

You dispute the French Mirages did not engage in the battle? There are several American sources that say they did not engage but just flew over the battle. Here is one:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/10/20/everything-we-know-about-the-niger-attack-that-left-4-u-s-soldi ers-dead/?utm_term=.53ed96fbd601

Here is what we know about the timeline.

Initially, the Pentagon reported the battle lasted just 30 minutes. Now they are saying the soldiers were engaged in the battle for an hour before calling for air support. Then it took another 30 minutes for the French Mirages to appear. But they did not fire a shot or dropped any bombs. At that point the enemy disengaged.

Then a civilian helicopter went in to rescue the Americans and take out the wounded and dead. In the fog of the battle (which seems to suggest there may still have been fighting) there was no head count to ensure all Americans were accounted for.

In other words, someone left Sgt Johnson on the field.

Every American soldier on the field has a locator beacon they can activate--similar to the beacons planes use in cases of emergency. Overhead drones picked up the signal. They were able to track it for quite some time until it faded away. A couple of days later they located the body.

When Obama was president, he initially authorized 100 military personnel to advise and assist the Niger military. I don't know when the mission creep started; but, ultimately, he is no longer responsible for the military anymore. Drump is now the commander in chief (C in C).

Notice it took well over a week before the press got Trump to even talk about what happened. In effect, he admitted he did not know. This suggests that he is woefully disengaged, not that he needs to know where everyone is at a specific time, but that he should have been briefed early on about what happened.

I know Trump wants commanders in the field to be able to develop and execute missions more on their own and I support that. But when things go wrong. He needs to be on top of it.

There is a daily cartoon in the US, Dilbert, which is about an engineering office with a dysfunctional boss. Today, I think the artist is making a political comment about the war of words between Representative Wilson and Trump. See for yourself.

[ 24. October 2017, 16:12: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]

Posts: 2068 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:

There is a daily cartoon in the US, Dilbert, which is about an engineering office with a dysfunctional boss. Today, I think the artist is making a political comment about the war of words between Representative Wilson and Trump. See for yourself.

He supported Trump. Most of Trump's true believers still do. It is only the marginals that appear to have switched camps.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17128 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Martin60

You dispute the French Mirages did not engage in the battle? There are several American sources that say they did not engage but just flew over the battle. Here is one:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/10/20/everything-we-know-about-the-niger-attack-that-left-4-u-s-soldi ers-dead/?utm_term=.53ed96fbd601

Here is what we know about the timeline.

Initially, the Pentagon reported the battle lasted just 30 minutes. Now they are saying the soldiers were engaged in the battle for an hour before calling for air support. Then it took another 30 minutes for the French Mirages to appear. But they did not fire a shot or dropped any bombs. At that point the enemy disengaged.

Then a civilian helicopter went in to rescue the Americans and take out the wounded and dead. In the fog of the battle (which seems to suggest there may still have been fighting) there was no head count to ensure all Americans were accounted for.

In other words, someone left Sgt Johnson on the field.

Every American soldier on the field has a locator beacon they can activate--similar to the beacons planes use in cases of emergency. Overhead drones picked up the signal. They were able to track it for quite some time until it faded away. A couple of days later they located the body.

When Obama was president, he initially authorized 100 military personnel to advise and assist the Niger military. I don't know when the mission creep started; but, ultimately, he is no longer responsible for the military anymore. Drump is now the commander in chief (C in C).

Notice it took well over a week before the press got Trump to even talk about what happened. In effect, he admitted he did not know. This suggests that he is woefully disengaged, not that he needs to know where everyone is at a specific time, but that he should have been briefed early on about what happened.

I know Trump wants commanders in the field to be able to develop and execute missions more on their own and I support that. But when things go wrong. He needs to be on top of it.

There is a daily cartoon in the US, Dilbert, which is about an engineering office with a dysfunctional boss. Today, I think the artist is making a political comment about the war of words between Representative Wilson and Trump. See for yourself.

No I didn't.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And, just last night several news outlets are reporting that the Green Berets were actually going after an ISiS leader in the area. The mission changed about midstream. Initially, they were on a recognizance and training mission. Then command heard there might be an ISIS leader nearby, so they were ordered to go after him.

And now, the Pentagon admits the battle was prolonged. It was not a 30-minute skirmish as initially reported, but it lasted most of the day. The rescue helicopter did not attempt to land until after nightfall.

So, someone sent an American unit on a mission that had no backup assets.

Some people need to be held accountable.

Posts: 2068 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You. Authoritative sources?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Authoritative Sources? I said news sources. Nothing authorized yet since the Pentagon is continuing its investigation and Congress will likely start its investigations in time.

Since you will probably question mainstream news sources, I will give you the FoxNews feed. Essentially all news sources are saying the same thing.

blob:http://video.foxnews.com/aaf02ad0-2a68-44f0-8a29-c753005869f6

Posts: 2068 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That's not a link G49. You need to quote your assertions. Including about me.

[ 26. October 2017, 08:38: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17019 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, shame on you Gramps49. [Disappointed]
Everyone knows the proper form is to make transient, obscure references couched in semi-lucid, pseudo poetry.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17128 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools