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Source: (consider it) Thread: Balfour Declaration
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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The 2nd November, a week away now, marks the centenary of the Balfour Declaration, a letter from Arthur Balfour (UK Foreign Secretary) to Lord Walter Rothschild, which read
quote:
His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
The immediate context of the declaration being an attempt to solicit support for the Allies from Zionists (in particular in the US) for the war - which had reached a stalemate on the western front, and the US still hadn't committed large numbers of troops to break that deadlock. In the Middle East there was hope for progress against the Ottoman forces, with what was to become Palestine (and later Israel) still under Ottoman control.

Of course, the later consequences of the declaration were that it laid the foundations for the establishment of the state of Israel, the displacement of millions of Palestinian Arabs from their homes, and one of the most intractable conflicts in the world.

I know that the Iona Community is organising a citizens apology in Edinburgh on the 2nd November, I don't know what other events have been organised to mark this event.

With thoughts of a citizens apology, the obvious question is the extent to which an apology is an appropriate response to the effects of the Declaration. And, whether the problems in Palestine are actually rooted in the Declaration (which, it is noted, stated that the rights of the non-Jewish citizens of Palestine would not be prejudiced - though, of course, history has shown that that ideal was not met).

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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If a Brit travels to the occupied Palestinian Territories, you're often asked about (and expected to apologise for) Balfour.

But, to be honest, it all seems a bit late for that.

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arse

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Martin60
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If I ever go, I'll do that first in every interaction.

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Love wins

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L'organist
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The Balfour Declaration was in part a (much belated) response on the part of the UK to the continuing pogroms in Eastern Europe and Russia, and were an attempt to provide a solution for populations of Jews in places like the Pale who faced continuous repression (at best) and murderous attacks.

The creation of the State of Israel is an entirely separate issue and was something vigorously opposed by the then UK government, both before and during the votes at the fledgling UN and on the ground through UK military units and UK leadership of supposedly independent Arab military, such as the Arab Legion, and in its later lobbying for the Mufti of Jerisalem not to be indicted as a war criminal, despite copious, well-documented evidence that he not only knew about the Final Solution but agreed entirely with its aims, writing in 1943
quote:
It is the duty of Muhammadans in general and Arabs in particular to … drive all Jews from Arab and Muhammadan countries….Germany is also struggling against the common foe who oppressed Arabs and Muhammadans in their different countries. It has very clearly recognized the Jews for what they are and resolved to find a definitive solution [endgültige Lösung] for the Jewish danger that will eliminate the scourge that Jews represent in the world.
It is entirely wrong to blame the ideal behind the Balfour Declaration for the post 1948 situation vis-a-vis Palestinian arab refugees.

[ 25. October 2017, 09:30: Message edited by: L'organist ]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

The creation of the State of Israel is an entirely separate issue and was something vigorously opposed by the then UK government, both before and during the votes at the fledgling UN and on the ground through UK military units and UK leadership of supposedly independent Arab military, such as the Arab Legion, and in its later lobbying for the Mufti of Jerisalem not to be indicted as a war criminal, despite copious, well-documented evidence that he not only knew about the Final Solution but agreed entirely with its aims, writing in 1943

Sigh. No, it wasn't entirely separate. Yes we all know about the moronic views of the Mufti of Jerusalem. Yes we know that Arab countries attacked Israel in the 7-day war.

Yeah, yes, uh-huh, whatever.

The fact remains that a consequence of 80 odd years of this situation has resulted in a highly developed Western-style society living alongside (and preventing the development of) a largely undeveloped population. And the former, largely because they have all the power, is preventing the development and growth of the latter.

There is no way out of this mess unless Israel is undone (which isn't going to happen and would be highly undesirable for obvious reasons) or all of the Palestinians relocate (which is also not very likely).

There is therefore no possible solution other than that Israel becomes increasingly militarised (which is quite hard to imagine - it is a highly militarised society already) and the Palestinians become increasingly bedraggled (ditto).

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arse

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Ian Climacus

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Would an apology for the Declaration be seen as necessarily indicating an apology the creation of the state of Israel in the form it has been and is in now? I shudder at the implications that may have.

I despair of any solution to the dire straits Palestinians find themselves in in Israel. Israel clearly has a right to exist and be safe. Beyond that I'm not too impressed.

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simontoad
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I heard last week that agreement has been reached between Fatah and Hamas to form a united front of some sort. I haven't looked at the detail. I'm hoping that this could prompt a change in the overall climate of the region, so that steps towards a negotiated outcome could be taken away from the glare of publicity. I'm even hopeful that this might herald a move towards the centre in Israel, and the removal of settler influence from the Government. Obviously, this requires the fall of Netanyahu.

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Human

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I heard last week that agreement has been reached between Fatah and Hamas to form a united front of some sort. I haven't looked at the detail. I'm hoping that this could prompt a change in the overall climate of the region, so that steps towards a negotiated outcome could be taken away from the glare of publicity. I'm even hopeful that this might herald a move towards the centre in Israel, and the removal of settler influence from the Government. Obviously, this requires the fall of Netanyahu.

Highly unlikely it will make any difference. The Palestinian Authority had very little ability/power to do anything very much and it is increasingly obvious that the extremists in power in Israel think that it's only function is as an extension of the Israeli security forces (and/or to keep the Palestinians sufficiently annoyed that they don't bother attacking Israeli settlers).

The PA can do nothing about travel blockages, the large percentage of the population that lives on food hand-outs, the massive open-air prison that is Gaza etc and so on.

Israel has completely given up even the charade of telling the international community that the two-state future is the one that they want and instead has reverted to increasing pressure on the Palestinians in the West Bank (via land-grabs) and completely shuttering off Gaza.

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arse

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Martin60
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Not a chance. And Israel had no right to exist in the first place, but it's there now and that sore will run for decades, centuries.

Unless Jesus returns in some way of course ...

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Love wins

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Israel clearly has a right to exist and be safe.

I think this a convenient gloss and glaringly inaccurate.
The Jewish people have a right to exist. Israel, as a stolen land, does not. It does, however, now exist and getting rid of it isn’t a practical alternative. Fixing it is theoretically simple, but practically fraught.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Enoch
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I will not be apologising for the Balfour Declaration or having anything to do with those that advocate this. For all the problems since, it's something in my country's history that I'm proud of - and there's not much to be proud of here at the moment.

Israel is not a perfect state. Not everything they do is right and good. But that is true of every other state. As I've said before on these boards, though, virtually all the advocacy in the west of the Palestinian cause is strongly motivated by the opportunity it gives for people to be anti-semitic without admitting it to others, or frequently, themselves.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I will not be apologising for the Balfour Declaration or having anything to do with those that advocate this. For all the problems since, it's something in my country's history that I'm proud of - and there's not much to be proud of here at the moment.

Israel is not a perfect state. Not everything they do is right and good. But that is true of every other state. As I've said before on these boards, though, virtually all the advocacy in the west of the Palestinian cause is strongly motivated by the opportunity it gives for people to be anti-semitic without admitting it to others, or frequently, themselves.

'Virtually all' is a big claim. I wonder how you might substantiate it?

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Stop taking sides like this. It is absolutely ridiculous to do so. You cannot simplify. All of the countries in the area must solve things. It isn't the just UK's fault, it isn't just Israel which must answer for the Palestinians.
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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I will not be apologising for the Balfour Declaration or having anything to do with those that advocate this. For all the problems since, it's something in my country's history that I'm proud of - and there's not much to be proud of here at the moment.

Israel is not a perfect state. Not everything they do is right and good. But that is true of every other state. As I've said before on these boards, though, virtually all the advocacy in the west of the Palestinian cause is strongly motivated by the opportunity it gives for people to be anti-semitic without admitting it to others, or frequently, themselves.

What about the opportunity to be imperialistic, Islamophobic? Balfour, of course, was an anti-Semitic Anglo-Israelite.

[ 25. October 2017, 13:30: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The Jewish people have a right to exist. Israel, as a stolen land, does not. It does, however, now exist and getting rid of it isn’t a practical alternative. Fixing it is theoretically simple, but practically fraught.

Are there any other countries in the world that you think are 'stolen' and shouldn't exist, were it not impractical to abolish them, or is Israel a special case?
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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Stop taking sides like this. It is absolutely ridiculous to do so. You cannot simplify. All of the countries in the area must solve things. It isn't the just UK's fault, it isn't just Israel which must answer for the Palestinians.

No, it's the US, France and all of Europe N & W of Germany INCLUDING the UK for Balfour alone, the white Commonwealth, Russia and its major client states.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

Israel is not a perfect state. Not everything they do is right and good. But that is true of every other state. As I've said before on these boards, though, virtually all the advocacy in the west of the Palestinian cause is strongly motivated by the opportunity it gives for people to be anti-semitic without admitting it to others, or frequently, themselves.

Given that a high proportion of advocacy for the Palestinian cause is conducted by Jews, this isn't just nonsense, it is totally wrong-headed nonsense.

There are elements of anti-Semitism within the Palestinin solidarity groups, but it is totally utterly wrong to describe it as virtually all.

You couldn't be more wrong if you renamed yourself Mr Wrong and moved to live in Wrongville.

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arse

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The Jewish people have a right to exist. Israel, as a stolen land, does not. It does, however, now exist and getting rid of it isn’t a practical alternative. Fixing it is theoretically simple, but practically fraught.

Are there any other countries in the world that you think are 'stolen' and shouldn't exist, were it not impractical to abolish them, or is Israel a special case?
Let me see:

United States of America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand (possibly to a lesser extent) and many other parts of the world that were colonised to the detriment of the native people.

Nowadays we hear the Celts going on about the Anglo-Saxons, forgetting that they displaced the Beaker People themselves.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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sharkshooter

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As long as we dwell on the decisions and actions of generations long past, we will never find a way forward. It is time to stop blaming and apologizing for history, and start working together to resolve current differences.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
As long as we dwell on the decisions and actions of generations long past, we will never find a way forward. It is time to stop blaming and apologizing for history, and start working together to resolve current differences.

That's easy to say but hard to do in a place where at least two distinct religions (and arguably 3, 4 or more others) have specific and detailed historical and religious ties to the land.

You might like to go over there with a loudhailer and try saying "Hey you lot, this whole country is just a pile of old rocks! All your holy books and your Theology of the Land is a load of old hooey!

Stop worrying about it and be groovy to each other"

But to be absolutely honest with you, I don't think it is going to work.

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arse

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The Jewish people have a right to exist. Israel, as a stolen land, does not. It does, however, now exist and getting rid of it isn’t a practical alternative. Fixing it is theoretically simple, but practically fraught.

Are there any other countries in the world that you think are 'stolen' and shouldn't exist, were it not impractical to abolish them, or is Israel a special case?
Let me see:

United States of America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand (possibly to a lesser extent) and many other parts of the world that were colonised to the detriment of the native people.

I knew some bullshit would arise and this is part the list which I was thinking of in reply.
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
As long as we dwell on the decisions and actions of generations long past, we will never find a way forward. It is time to stop blaming and apologizing for history, and start working together to resolve current differences.

You cannot work together to resolve differences the parties do not agree exist.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You cannot work together to resolve differences the parties do not agree exist.

There are two populations living in the land with diametrically opposed understandings of history and religion.

There is no way to compromise or resolve those differences. You can't both have Temple Mount as the site of a new Jewish temple and the site of the third holiest place in Islam. Not possible.

One can make compromises with people who are not wedded to a historical-religious perspective which by necessity negates another alternative position. But you simply cannot when there are two equal (and essentially opposite) historical-religious positions, unless the toys are simply taken away and neither of them have access to it.

That's not really going to work either.

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arse

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You cannot work together to resolve differences the parties do not agree exist.

And nothing anyone else says or does will resolve the issue, so we are wasting our breath.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Martin60
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Correct. Apart from apologizing for Balfour in Palestine.

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Love wins

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I will not be apologising for the Balfour Declaration or having anything to do with those that advocate this. For all the problems since, it's something in my country's history that I'm proud of - and there's not much to be proud of here at the moment.

Israel is not a perfect state. Not everything they do is right and good. But that is true of every other state. As I've said before on these boards, though, virtually all the advocacy in the west of the Palestinian cause is strongly motivated by the opportunity it gives for people to be anti-semitic without admitting it to others, or frequently, themselves.

'Virtually all' is a big claim. I wonder how you might substantiate it?
He can't. It's bullshit, and disgustingly scurrilous bullshit at that, and everyone knows it. Doesn't stop people using it to shut open debate.

[ 25. October 2017, 18:14: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Caissa
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The modern state of Israel is no more an example of colonialism that most of the states we occupy.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There are two populations living in the land with diametrically opposed understandings of history and religion.

There is no way to compromise or resolve those differences. You can't both have Temple Mount as the site of a new Jewish temple and the site of the third holiest place in Islam. Not possible.

One can make compromises with people who are not wedded to a historical-religious perspective which by necessity negates another alternative position. But you simply cannot when there are two equal (and essentially opposite) historical-religious positions, unless the toys are simply taken away and neither of them have access to it.

That's not really going to work either.

Let's back it up to - all countries have to agree that Israel has a right to exist, and all countries must agree that a Palestinian state has a right to exist. Then and only then is there a basis for anything. Blaming one country or another does no good at all. It prolongs it all.

There are some obvious things as you note, but these mustn't be the starting point. Obviously the facts as exist must be taken as existing: Israel exists, the temple mount structures exist, control of lands exists etc. I think probably we would have to see some contribution of lands for Palestine from more than just one country.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Let's back it up to - all countries have to agree that Israel has a right to exist, and all countries must agree that a Palestinian state has a right to exist. Then and only then is there a basis for anything. Blaming one country or another does no good at all. It prolongs it all.

Palestinians believe that Jerusalem is and should be the capital of their state. Israelis believe that the one-indivisible city is their capital. It can't be both.

We're not even into the whole business of who is to blame for this situation, the reality is that there are now two populations who both have a stake and a claim to the same bit of land. Even without the other intractable non-negotiables (and that's actually non-negotiable by both sides), the status of Jerusalem is impossible to resolve. It cannot be all things to all people. Impossible.

quote:
There are some obvious things as you note, but these mustn't be the starting point. Obviously the facts as exist must be taken as existing: Israel exists, the temple mount structures exist, control of lands exists etc. I think probably we would have to see some contribution of lands for Palestine from more than just one country.
I'm not entirely sure why that should be a starting point. After 1948 there was a UN partition plan which was never implemented whereby the new state of Israel got about half the land and the Palestinians got half the land. Why not start at that point?

Answer: because shedloads of Israelis live inside the 1967 green line, never mind the 1948 partition line.

And because both sides want Jerusalem.

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arse

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Callan
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Originally posted by Mr Cheesy:

quote:
We're not even into the whole business of who is to blame for this situation, the reality is that there are now two populations who both have a stake and a claim to the same bit of land. Even without the other intractable non-negotiables (and that's actually non-negotiable by both sides), the status of Jerusalem is impossible to resolve. It cannot be all things to all people. Impossible.

The Norn Irish peace process was similarly intractable until both sides realised that the other lot weren't going to go away and that the IRA couldn't beat the British Army and that the British Army couldn't put the IRA out of commission. At which point the unthinkable became thinkable.

The difference between NII. and Palestine and Israel is that by the 1990s every stakeholder who wasn't a Unionist or Republican was very emphatically on the side of peace. This isn't the case with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But there is no reason why it couldn't be.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by Sioni Said:

quote:
United States of America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand (possibly to a lesser extent) and many other parts of the world that were colonised to the detriment of the native people.

It's not just colonisation. It's also about population transfers. Very few of these were ethically justifiable but they happened and we have learned to live with them. We don't insist that, say, Sudeten Germans ought to be allowed to return to the Czech Republic. People do insist that Palestinians ought to be allowed to return to the state of Israel but not, interestingly, that Jews displaced by the Arab states in 1948 ought to be allowed to return to their places of origin. There is no path to peace which does not involve acknowledging that the State of Israel is here to stay. I don't think that supporters of Palestinian statehood do their friends any favours when they give the impression this might not be the case. Just as I don't think that Gentile supporters of Israeli nationalism are doing Israel any favours, in the long run.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As I've said before on these boards, though, virtually all the advocacy in the west of the Palestinian cause is strongly motivated by the opportunity it gives for people to be anti-semitic without admitting it to others, or frequently, themselves.

'Virtually all' is a big claim. I wonder how you might substantiate it?
He can't. It's bullshit, and disgustingly scurrilous bullshit at that, and everyone knows it. Doesn't stop people using it to shut open debate.
It's a claim that only makes sense if one interprets any criticism of the Israeli state as anti-semitism. Which is still bullshit, much akin to claims that criticism of Trump is anti-American or criticism of the implementation of Brexit treason against the Crown.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32112 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Jordan is a very interesting country. It isn't what it once was.

Saudi needs to embrace Israel.

Not sure what else.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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When negotiating a deal, it is good practice at the beginning to emphasise things the parties have in common and goals that both parties want to achieve. There is an impetus to negotiations that can build and sometimes previously insurmountable obstacles can suddenly seem capable of solution.

Political negotiations like these are always fraught. There is always a danger of those who are negotiating losing their support base because they are perceived to be too moderate, or giving too much away. The tragic collapse of the Oslo peace process, which set up the Palestinian Authority and started a process of Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories shows that what is agreed around a negotiating table can be effectively undermined by those who are not ready for peace.

I was not very interested in Northern Ireland in the 1990's. I followed what was going on because I was interested in public affairs, but not to any great detail. I wonder if any of our UK shipmates can tell us whether there was a time when peace in Northern Ireland seemed like an impossibility? It seemed to me like the peace process started to achieve extraordinary results out of the blue. Are there lessons to be learned for Israel/Palestine?

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Human

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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I feel the need to say that I am a long-time supporter of Israel and the Jewish people. I went to Israel in or about 2006 on one of those study tours paid for by the Australia/Israel and Jewish Affairs Council.

I am partisan on this issue in that I want Israel to continue to exist and be a haven for Jews, and I want peace. I reckon many Israelis want peace too, but some don't. Bibi, I don't think he does.

I hate being in a bloody honesty phase. I much prefer to fight.

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Human

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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I was ardently pro-Israel until I visited in 1996, just prior to the first Palestinian elections. It was going through all the checkpoints that flipped my views. Every time we'd enter an Arab neighborhood, I'd look around at the markedly worse conditions and think, We have this at home, just without the checkpoints. It's called the ghetto.

quote:
... it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...
This is of course partly just ignorance on my part, but not entirely -- I really do wonder how on earth he could have thought this would actually happen.
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simontoad
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# 18096

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flipped from what to what? i.e. are you able to be more specific about what you supported prior to your visit and what you support now. I'm sure you know that there are a raft of difficult issues involved unless you choose the "throw them back into the sea" or the "Israel is our land given us by God and we will drive the Palestinian thieves out of the whole of our country" options.

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Human

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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The Jewish people have a right to exist. Israel, as a stolen land, does not. It does, however, now exist and getting rid of it isn’t a practical alternative. Fixing it is theoretically simple, but practically fraught.

Are there any other countries in the world that you think are 'stolen' and shouldn't exist, were it not impractical to abolish them, or is Israel a special case?
Germany, of course, with its occupation of the Sorbs and Wends, France with land taken from the Bretons, and with England effectively occuping Wales, Cornwall, Scotland and northern Ireland...
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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
... I wonder if any of our UK shipmates can tell us whether there was a time when peace in Northern Ireland seemed like an impossibility?

Yes. Once violence had broken out again in the late 1960s, there was no time at which peace ever felt possible. It still seems very fragile, and is threatened by those of my fellow English voters who voted moron in the referendum.
quote:
It seemed to me like the peace process started to achieve extraordinary results out of the blue. Are there lessons to be learned for Israel/Palestine?
Probably not - except perhaps that idealism is a thoroughly bad thing, and especially when enlisted in 'our cause'.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
... I wonder if any of our UK shipmates can tell us whether there was a time when peace in Northern Ireland seemed like an impossibility?

Enoch is right, there was indeed.

One side of my family is from NI and every Christmas various relatives would sit down after lunch and discuss "the Irish question". I gained the firm impression as a child that peace was indeed impossible. The fact that it suddenly happened gives me hope for other seemingly deadlocked situations.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
The Norn Irish peace process was similarly intractable until both sides realised that the other lot weren't going to go away and that the IRA couldn't beat the British Army and that the British Army couldn't put the IRA out of commission. At which point the unthinkable became thinkable.

The difference between NII. and Palestine and Israel is that by the 1990s every stakeholder who wasn't a Unionist or Republican was very emphatically on the side of peace. This isn't the case with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But there is no reason why it couldn't be.

This is utter shite as anyone who has been there in the last 20 years could tell you in a microsecond.

Tony Blair set up an office in a hotel in Jerusalem trying to spin this line of "oh you know we did this thing in NI which nobody thought was possible, there is no reason why we can't do it here *shiny grin*" and left after I-forget-how-long when it turned out to be utter bollocks.

The occupied Palestinian Territories are not Northern Ireland. For one "minor" but important difference: nobody in Northern Ireland has a religious tie to the land in the way that Jews have a tie to Jerusalem and Muslims have a tie to Al Quds.

Because the various forms of Christianity that exist in Western Europe are not Theologies of the Land* and therefore it is possible to discuss power sharing and political compromise.

You simply cannot do that when you have one set of people who believe "this is our land, it always has been because the deity gave it to us" and another set who believe "this is our land, it has been for thousands of years and is the site of one of the most holy parts of our religion". Fortunately in the main Christians don't stick their oar in these days and say "oh well, this is the site of the crucifixion, therefore it is ours so you can all just piss off".

Of course another difference with Northern Ireland is that whilst there was a power inbalance, it was nothing like the one in Israel/Palestine. Nothing like it.

If anything, this current situation is geographically more like South Africa. But again, the religio-political aspects of Jerusalem means that a resolution as per South Africa are increasingly unlikely. It would take a monumental effort by Israel - including compromising on land, on the wealth inbalance, compromising on their access to Holy sites, compromising on the status of Jerusalem, compromising on the Palestinian refugees and so on. That's just not going to happen.

It's all very well saying that the Palestinians should compromise, but they've already been forced to compromise at the end of a gun and they've got nothing else to offer. It's like having a community where a few people have been able to build a gated community on the majority of the land and everyone else has to live under canvass, and then the gated residents saying that - of course - everyone here has got to compromise to resolve the situation. No. Ridiculous.


*or at least are not Theologies of the Land of the land that they're actually living or want to live in. Having a Theology of the Land of a quasi-mythical place somewhere else is a novel idea, and of course also has implications for Jerusalem

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arse

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Martin60
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# 368

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Perfect. Unfortunately. The closest analogy was South Africa, but this is orders of magnitude worse. It will be resolved by nuclear war or a literal Parousia, never by Israel doing what no other nation ever would.

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Love wins

Posts: 16887 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Perfect. Unfortunately. The closest analogy was South Africa, but this is orders of magnitude worse. It will be resolved by nuclear war or a literal Parousia, never by Israel doing what no other nation ever would.

I think most Palestinians are fairly sanguine about the way it is going; namely that eventually they're going to be removed altogether from the land.

And in that sense the Israeli militarisation has worked. I don't think it is now a stretch to think that the Israeli government could do things that were previously unthinkable - such as unilaterally closing the whole of the Temple Mount and bringing it under full Israeli government control - and that Arab states wouldn't follow with a response.

Because none of them have the stomach for a fight, because they've got other things to worry about and because Israel has nukes.

I don't see that there is any way to stop the inevitable direction of history. Thousands of Palestinians have given up and have left the area. I'd bet that a large proportion of the residents of Gaza would leave if they were offered lives of freedom somewhere else. Israeli Arabs are increasingly given the choice of either getting fully on-board with Israel or finding life incredibly uncomfortable.

Israel will increase the pressure by increasing the building of settlements, by further restricting movement, by further restricting the Palestinian economy, by every other little action which makes a Palestinian's life unliveable. Eventually everyone will give up trying to resist the overwhelming force - that's what the Israelis believe that they're doing and I think they're basically right in that.

It's a pretty stupid way to get what they want, but they've apparently given in to the extreme politics which now refuses to even consider compromise and instead believes that they can simply wait to win the war of attrition.

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arse

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Martin60
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# 368

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Some time in the centuries, decades ahead somebody is going to drive a nuclear truck bomb up to the border. Or sail a boat bomb. When the wind is right and ill.

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Love wins

Posts: 16887 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by Mr Cheesy:

quote:
This is utter shite as anyone who has been there in the last 20 years could tell you in a microsecond.

Tony Blair set up an office in a hotel in Jerusalem trying to spin this line of "oh you know we did this thing in NI which nobody thought was possible, there is no reason why we can't do it here *shiny grin*" and left after I-forget-how-long when it turned out to be utter bollocks.

The occupied Palestinian Territories are not Northern Ireland. For one "minor" but important difference: nobody in Northern Ireland has a religious tie to the land in the way that Jews have a tie to Jerusalem and Muslims have a tie to Al Quds.

Because the various forms of Christianity that exist in Western Europe are not Theologies of the Land* and therefore it is possible to discuss power sharing and political compromise.

Anyone who has the faintest grasp of Christian history should be aware that power sharing and political compromise are not universal characteristics of Christian political praxis, to put it politely. In the 1980s Dr Paisley was ejected from the European Parliament for heckling the Pope as the anti-Christ. If you had told me that a couple of decades later he and Mr Martin McGuiness would be known as 'The Chuckle Brothers' my immediate response would have been along the lines of 'Take me to your dealer'. Yet, Lo and Behold, it came to pass. Neither side got exactly what they wanted but intractable problems became tractable, immutable and eternal theologies evolved, the unchangeable, changed. This isn't because inside Dr Paisley was an Isaiah Berlin trying to get out, or because Christianity is a uniquely tolerant monotheism it is because both sides realised that the absolute victory they sought over the other would elude them and the killing would just continue, pointlessly, whilst it did and that some sort of compromise which gave them part but not all of what they wanted could be on the table.

Israel isn't Ireland but if you get the protagonists to that point then peace could become achievable. The final status of whose God is boss could be deferred indefinitely, or theologies of the Land could evolve to accommodate Abraham's other children. Intolerance is very often a characteristic of monotheism. But then, so is a desire for peace.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Anyone who has the faintest grasp of Christian history should be aware that power sharing and political compromise are not universal characteristics of Christian political praxis, to put it politely. In the 1980s Dr Paisley was ejected from the European Parliament for heckling the Pope as the anti-Christ. If you had told me that a couple of decades later he and Mr Martin McGuiness would be known as 'The Chuckle Brothers' my immediate response would have been along the lines of 'Take me to your dealer'. Yet, Lo and Behold, it came to pass. Neither side got exactly what they wanted but intractable problems became tractable, immutable and eternal theologies evolved, the unchangeable, changed. This isn't because inside Dr Paisley was an Isaiah Berlin trying to get out, or because Christianity is a uniquely tolerant monotheism it is because both sides realised that the absolute victory they sought over the other would elude them and the killing would just continue, pointlessly, whilst it did and that some sort of compromise which gave them part but not all of what they wanted could be on the table.

These continued comparisons with Northern Ireland are misplaced. Israel/Palestine is nothing like Northern Ireland.

quote:
Israel isn't Ireland but if you get the protagonists to that point then peace could become achievable. The final status of whose God is boss could be deferred indefinitely, or theologies of the Land could evolve to accommodate Abraham's other children. Intolerance is very often a characteristic of monotheism. But then, so is a desire for peace.
Bullshit. This is just drivel.

[ 26. October 2017, 10:59: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I'm not sure why Israel would want 'peace', since basically they have won. I mean, they have ethnically cleansed Palestine, and destroyed it; well, 'destroy' is a misnomer since it never existed and will not exist now.

This has happened before in human history, and life goes on.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Callan
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# 525

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As always, Mr Cheesy, I am bowled over by your eloquence and willingness to engage.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
As always, Mr Cheesy, I am bowled over by your eloquence and willingness to engage.

You haven't presented an argument other than a very superficial "oh well look at Northern Ireland".

OK let's look at NI. The Belfast agreement ensured various things, including that people in NI could choose to get British and/or Irish passports. The fact that both the British and Irish states were in the EU meant that trade was entirely unimpeded. That farmers on either side of the border could share marketing. That trains would run without border checks.

That anyone could live anywhere on the island of Ireland.

None of this is relevant to Israel/Palestine - where one population is a first-world European community seeking to control life of another underprivileged population. There is no sense that anyone wants an outcome that looks like Northern Ireland - not least the Israeli government which would have most to lose.

Continually bringing this up isn't helping one iota.

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arse

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I think one flaw in the analogy with Ireland, is that it may be true that in Ireland, both sides realized that they could not win, but in the Middle East, Israel has won, and knows it has won. It has its boot on the Palestinian throat, and it ain't lifting it.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You cannot work together to resolve differences the parties do not agree exist.

There are two populations living in the land with diametrically opposed understandings of history and religion.

There is no way to compromise or resolve those differences. You can't both have Temple Mount as the site of a new Jewish temple and the site of the third holiest place in Islam. Not possible.
*snip*

Actually, it is possible. And our friends the Ottomans showed how it is to be done. As an excellent example, one has the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, where Abdulmecid I in 1853 assigned and confirmed different bits of the shrine to different churches and religious orders. As it is, there are delineations of the Dome of the Rock and the Wall. All that has to be done is for the differing parties to maintain that distinction. Easier said than done, but it is theoretically possible, and an example exists.

And if there are two states, one city (Jerusalem) could be an agreed capital for both of them, either through division of the city, or an overlay of jurisdiction. Both of these could easily be part of a settlement if the parties choose.

I'm not sure if apologizing for the Balfour declaration is more than a shibboleth. Were I Palestinian, I would be keener on seeing a desire on seeking justice and fairness for all residents on the part of my interlocutor.

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