homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Balfour Declaration (Page 3)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Balfour Declaration
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What - other than that the partition plan was never enacted?

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10196 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is it not so that partition needed to occur because otherwise the Jews were at risk from majoritarian Arab - Muslim populations?

Exchange of populations. Some people have to leave one area and live in another, and then deal with it. This appears reasonably common. What's so special about this situation?

It was increasingly forced on the Arabs, against their will, by Turkey from 1882, Britain from 1917, the UN in 1948 and the state of Israel thereafter. Where've you been?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16887 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We're back to the partition as approved, finally, by the nations of the world. And we have to consider where the Jews should go if not to Israel. Because the surrounding countries attacked immediately, Israel determined to hang on to additional territories, as did surrounding countries. When there was no acceptance of Israel's right to exist, we end up with strategic moves to retain the territory, even in the situation of land for peace, as noted previously in 2000-2001.

I have seen the Hamas Charter, which shows its goals as eliminationist (it and Fatah are the PLO, not clear on the state of their conflict with each other and which is more outrageous), and the leader of the Palestinian government, Mahmoud Abbas, (doesn't control Gaza) appears clearly anti-Jewish.

How can such people be taken seriously about Palestinian-Israeli peace? Would they, as their comments, documents etc indicate, exterminate the Jews if they ran the government which controlled all of the territory? Or force them all out? I cannot see how the Palestinian cause can be taken seriously if this is their leadership.

[ 14. November 2017, 22:18: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11064 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's their land.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16887 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was born and live on indigenous land.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1181 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Me too. As my sig says.
Posts: 11064 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The vast majority of people were born and live on indigenous land, since the amount of land that had no indigenous population before the arrival of settlers in recent times is very small.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32113 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We're back to the partition as approved, finally, by the nations of the world. And we have to consider where the Jews should go if not to Israel. Because the surrounding countries attacked immediately, Israel determined to hang on to additional territories, as did surrounding countries. When there was no acceptance of Israel's right to exist, we end up with strategic moves to retain the territory, even in the situation of land for peace, as noted previously in 2000-2001.

OK. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but Israel has ignored the Partition plan and has built large cities in the portion that was not allocated to them. In addition it annexed the West Bank and continued to build settlements in occupied land.

So if you are going back to partition, you are also talking about reducing the size of the nation of Israel, withdrawing from the occupied territories and releasing military control of the Palestinian population.

Maybe you know this, but it isn't clear from what you've written.

On the other point, there is a lot of empty space in Israel. If they really wanted extra urban areas they could easily build more towns in 1948 Israel without the need for settlements in the occupied territories. But it has never been about that.

quote:
I have seen the Hamas Charter, which shows its goals as eliminationist (it and Fatah are the PLO, not clear on the state of their conflict with each other and which is more outrageous), and the leader of the Palestinian government, Mahmoud Abbas, (doesn't control Gaza) appears clearly anti-Jewish.
This is so old -
Hamas has said it will accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders (which is far less equitable than the 1948 partition borders) because the previous position is untenable. And that just shows how ridiculous this whole thing has become - even the most ardent Palestinians now accept that regaining the whole of the land isn't happening and that Israel isn't going away. And they've rowed back significantly on what they're prepared to accept.

But Israel is not interested in that discussion, because obviously they'd lose an awful lot by accepting an agreement based on 1967 borders, not least the claim to, and control of, the West Bank.

quote:
How can such people be taken seriously about Palestinian-Israeli peace? Would they, as their comments, documents etc indicate, exterminate the Jews if they ran the government which controlled all of the territory? Or force them all out? I cannot see how the Palestinian cause can be taken seriously if this is their leadership.
It's very simple when you realise that the official policy of the Israeli government is to make life so uncomfortable for Palestinans (particularly in Gaza) that they'll give up their demands, accept the breadcrumbs of a bandustan that they are offers - and preferably leave altogether.

Hamas are arses, but it is the Israeli government policies which created them.

[ 15. November 2017, 07:29: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10196 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I believe it is the Palestinians who ignored the partition plan. Dialogue about it on the other side - Israel - isn't at all pristine, expectable to have free debate in a democracy, but the proposal to trade land for peace has been put forward a series of times. The more remote history is of wars against Israel to eliminate it. The more recent is brokered 'land for peace' which the Palestinian representatives continually reject. The most important recent one seems to be 2000-2001 which the Palestinians walked away from in favour of renewed violence. It doesn't look like they're serious about this sort of peace settlement.

Should Israel build settlements on the disputed territories, demolish homes and conveniently arrange to 'acquire' lands of non-Jewish people? No. But I get where they are coming from. The only time there's any serious offer for something from Palestinians is when they are backed into a corner.

Re Hamas Charter - if this is old history why isn't it repudiated completely? It is still part of their operating documentation. Further a simple internet search will show that the Palestinian leadership Mahmoud Abbas has as recently as this fall advocated violence against Jews and Israel, and also spread the medieval rumour of Jews poisoning water. Not the sort of person who can seriously negotiate anything.

I further understand that the Palestinian government pays matryrs' (terrorists?) families off after they kill themselves, and also those who are in jail for violence. There's something seriously wrong with school textbooks which teach clear anti-Semitism in the Palestinian schools. Ridiculous to suggest this all is seeking peace.

Thus, I'm seeing something anti-Semitic from the Palestinians. Also seeing that some of this is carried forward in some of the internet-available reporting. I get that casting opposition to Israel as anti-Semitic works as a strategy for Israel, a sort of proxying ant-Semitism for Israel, but even if that is true, the Palestinian leadership does appear to be afflicted with anti-Semitism on top of whatever proxying there is. And I don't think the proxying is a very big issue.

Posts: 11064 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The more remote history is of wars against Israel to eliminate it. The more recent is brokered 'land for peace' which the Palestinian representatives continually reject.

There's nothing wrong with rejecting a bad deal. If the Israeli side are not going to put a reasonable offer on the table then any reasonable negotiator is just going to walk away until such a time as they do. And, for the record a reasonable offer would include a sufficient quantity and quality of land - land where people can live and earn an income (ie: fertile farm land), land that is connected as a coherent whole (ie: not bits and pieces all over the place with great tracts of Israeli land in between).

If Hitler had approached Churchill in 1941 and said "let's have peace between our nations, and in return we'll return the far north of Norway and those bits of the North African desert south of the coastal zone" I doubt Churchill would have bothered coming to the negotiating table.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32113 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I believe it is the Palestinians who ignored the partition plan. Dialogue about it on the other side - Israel - isn't at all pristine, expectable to have free debate in a democracy, but the proposal to trade land for peace has been put forward a series of times. The more remote history is of wars against Israel to eliminate it. The more recent is brokered 'land for peace' which the Palestinian representatives continually reject. The most important recent one seems to be 2000-2001 which the Palestinians walked away from in favour of renewed violence. It doesn't look like they're serious about this sort of peace settlement.

OK, well then you need to look at the historical maps. They're widely available.

Land-for-peace swaps have never offered a fair and equitable distribution of the land and access to the aquifer. At the present time, the Palestinian "owned" (I'm using inverted commas there because the land is not really owned when the occupying power can unilaterally claim it without any recourse to a higher legal authority) land is not contiguous and is essentially a bandustan. Any swaps of land could only be fair if land was given from Israel to Palestinians - there is nothing which could or should be given in reverse.

quote:
Should Israel build settlements on the disputed territories, demolish homes and conveniently arrange to 'acquire' lands of non-Jewish people? No. But I get where they are coming from. The only time there's any serious offer for something from Palestinians is when they are backed into a corner.
I'd just suggest calmly that you might want to go there and see for yourself what is going on. Israel's security requires millions of people to have their lives controlled by a military that they don't accept.

You might see that as understandable, I regard it as preposterous.

And also a ridiculous comment given that the Palestinians could easily say the same thing in reverse.

quote:
Re Hamas Charter - if this is old history why isn't it repudiated completely? It is still part of their operating documentation. Further a simple internet search will show that the Palestinian leadership Mahmoud Abbas has as recently as this fall advocated violence against Jews and Israel, and also spread the medieval rumour of Jews poisoning water. Not the sort of person who can seriously negotiate anything.
What a load of old cobblers. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

The Palestinian Authority only has the power that the Israeli military allows them. The PA is not a state, it is a caretaker government with very limited power.

quote:
I further understand that the Palestinian government pays matryrs' (terrorists?) families off after they kill themselves, and also those who are in jail for violence. There's something seriously wrong with school textbooks which teach clear anti-Semitism in the Palestinian schools. Ridiculous to suggest this all is seeking peace.
Yabber yabber yabber.

quote:
Thus, I'm seeing something anti-Semitic from the Palestinians. Also seeing that some of this is carried forward in some of the internet-available reporting. I get that casting opposition to Israel as anti-Semitic works as a strategy for Israel, a sort of proxying ant-Semitism for Israel, but even if that is true, the Palestinian leadership does appear to be afflicted with anti-Semitism on top of whatever proxying there is. And I don't think the proxying is a very big issue.
Again, as gently as I can, I want to suggest that you might want to go there, or at least talk to people who have gone there before throwing around accusations of anti-Semitism.

In fact, some of those who are most strongly against Israeli policies, most against the land-grabs and most against military actions are Jewish. A good number are also Israeli.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10196 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Was the 2000-2001 land for peace completely unacceptable? Were Palestinians serious about it? Are there any acceptable deals which don't involve the elimination of Israel?

If it is "yabber" about Mahmoud Abbas, I think we're into a situation of "alternative facts". The guy's way far out there.

The Hitler thing = Godwin's Law, and not comparable. Also the Palestinians are not British and Abbas is no Churchill.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11064 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Try this video on the history of Palestine/Israel. Or this one from an Israeli peace worker about the difficulties of living with the wall.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13543 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The Hitler thing = Godwin's Law, and not comparable.

OK, I took the first other example of a nation seizing territory by military force with the express intention of providing more land for their people to live on. Substitute for another example if you wish.

quote:
Also the Palestinians are not British and Abbas is no Churchill.
Why does it matter what nationality the people concerned are? If it's not right for French, Belgian, Norwegian and Danish people to have their country occupied by a foreign military power then the same applies to the Palestinians. The Palestinians share the same universal rights as the British, or anyone else. They are not worse than the British, nor less deserving of peace and justice.

And, you're right Abbas isn't Churchill. Abbas doesn't have the ability to blanket bomb whole cities and to slaughter thousands of civilians, much less issued orders to do so.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32113 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sigh.

Mahmood Abbas is also known as Abu Mazen and is the chair of the Palestinian Authority. He is from Fatah.

Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli Prime Minister accused him of formenting violence because he (Abu Mazen) called for protests against Israel and said that Palestinian knife attacks were understandable.

Abbas is the leader of a broken administration with almost no power. And has repeatedly stated that violent struggle against Israel is not justified.

Fake news?

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10196 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
But Israel was created by the UN, not by its use of military force. The military force was used to attempt to eliminate it. Now rocket attacks are used. Only when backed into a corner have Palestinians agreed to anything. I get that the dictatorships surrounding Israel have manipulated the Palestinians to their ends, but I'm seeing Israel as a party to conflict, not to be blamed alone.

Knife attacks are understandable? Since when? Is this okay? It hearkens back to medieval blood libel.

The 2000 Camp David plan is probably all the Palestinians could reasonably aspire to, and less than they currently have. (read through Territory, East Jerusalem, Right of Return.) This is about as good as it will ever get I think for Palestinians.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11064 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
But Israel was created by the UN, not by its use of military force.

Did I imagine a six-day war? Are those Israeli conscript troops stationed at check points in the West Bank a figment of my imagination? Are Israeli tanks shelling Gaza a good bit of photo-shopping?

The UN specified a small area as the Israeli state. The current, much larger, area under Israeli control is the result of military conquest.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32113 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
indeed, in response to being attacked. Repeatedly by the surrounding countries. Egypt made a peace deal based on, in part, getting land back. All of this forms the basis of Israeli understanding.

Israel's primary concern appears to be security.

There are several things that seem obvious: Israel will not agree to change itself from a Jewish majoritarian country. It will not agree to land exchanges that compromise security and defence. It also argues that the Palestinians are the responsibility of others in addition to itself.

Does Israel have a right to exist as Jewish state? I think so.

Does Palestine have a right to exist as either a Muslim state or a multi-ethic secular state. I think so, but Israel will have priority. Not because of my view, nor because it is or isn't fair, but because it is the only way this is going to play. And no, it isn't fair.

Posts: 11064 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:


Knife attacks are understandable? Since when? Is this okay? It hearkens back to medieval blood libel.

Abbas has retracted the claim, which apparently originated from a hoax news site. Not the first nor the last leader to have been taken in by a hoax.

But there are reputable sources which speak of water inequalities and how Israeli military cause severe shortages that violate basic human rights.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10196 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Retracting use of the water poisoning trope doesn't remove the historical basis of this anti-Semitic claim. And given Abbas' 1982 dissertation The Other Side: The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism, he is learned enough to know exactly what he was saying when he said it, back track or not.
Posts: 11064 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools