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Source: (consider it) Thread: What are we going to do about men in politics?
Brenda Clough
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

As for this:
quote:
... soon men will be afraid to leave the house ...
Now you know what it is like.
No, actually he doesn't. Because even if his "Oh no's the false accusations" were accurate, it isn't a phenomenon limited to men. And he still doesn't have to worry about actually being raped nearly anywhere, being groped at work,* denied promotion or even a job, etc.

*Yes, I know, these do happen to men. But not nearly as often and typically by other men. And most men I know do not worry about it, but most women do.

Know that it is changing. We are not going to take this any more.
This is one of many similar articles, pointing out that this is the year that it has changed. It is from the NY Times so it will cost you a click. A quote:
"Not only are women expected to weather sexual violence, intimate partner violence, workplace discrimination, institutional subordination, the expectation of free domestic labor, the blame for our own victimization, and all the subtler, invisible cuts that undermine us daily, we are not even allowed to be angry about it. Close your eyes and think of America.
We are expected to keep quiet about the men who prey upon us, as though their predation was our choice, not theirs. We are expected to sit quietly as men debate whether or not the state should be allowed to forcibly use our bodies as incubators. We are expected to not complain as we are diminished, degraded and discredited."

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la vie en rouge
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A case that’s been attracting a lot of attention here is that of Tariq Ramadan, a prominent Islamic scholar accused of rape by two women. He has now been suspended by Oxford University, although the university has insisted that this is no proof of guilt and is to allow an investigation to take place. I think that’s about right. The accusations are extremely serious and I don’t see how he could carry on in anything like the normal manner in any case.

Incidentally, Charlie Hebdo put a lewd cartoon of Ramadan on their front cover last week and death threats followed in short order. Which is odd, because as a radio commentator pointed out the other day, even if the relationships were consensual as Ramadan claims, they were not anything a devout Muslim should have been getting up to. There’s a lot of unpicking to do there, ISTM.

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Mudfrog
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I have dealt with a case where the following was true:

The accused was elderly at the time of 'the offence'.
He was arrested and bailed but not charged for 5 months.
In that time the arresting officer didn't talk to me - though I was in the same building and was the line manager.
Neither did she come to actually view the place where the alleged incident occurred.
Neither were any of the defence's statements used in court.
The charge was that there was 'sexual intent' - I have no idea how one proves that.
The only witness to the event - and there was one, a woman! - disagreed with the story told by the alleged victim and, having seen the event take place and seen the reaction, said that it was nothing at all like the evidence presented. i.e. it was a pack of lies.

The judge actually said that she wanted to find the accused not guilty but because of the nature of the case felt she had no choice but to give him a conditional discharge, make him pay £500 to the victim and place him on the sex-offenders' register.

I have yet to find anyone, man or woman, friend or stranger, after all this time later, who believes this man was guilty.


The arresting officer was a woman.
The prosecution and defence were women.
The judge was a woman.
The accusers were women.

The enquiry from day one of the arrest right through to the handing down of the sentence was evidently and blatantly one of finding the evidence to justify the arrest. There was no attempt made to be objective and look at defence evidence - indeed anything that went against the accused's story was ignored.

A second point.
The difference between these kinds of crimes and any other is that there is a great deal of stigma around them.

If someone is arrested on suspicion - note that word, 'suspicion' - of serious fraud or even assault, they may well be suspended from work, named in the papers, etc; but if they are subsequently found not guilty, the case fades into the past.

If someone is arrested for a sexual offence there is no 'suspicion' it's condemnation by virtue of even being questioned! Just look at Sir Cliff Richard whose house as raided by the police for the TV cameras before he even knew anything about it!.
He was questioned later but never arrested but now, even after the case was dropped, there are still those who say 'no smoke without fire.'

That's the difference.
In 2017 even to be accused of an offence is to be automatically and indelibly guilty of the unforgivable sin - even if the case is dropped.

Mud does indeed stick and people will always whisper as the 'exonerated' and falsely accused man walks past them.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:


The judge actually said that she wanted to find the accused not guilty but because of the nature of the case felt she had no choice but to give him a conditional discharge, make him pay £500 to the victim and place him on the sex-offenders' register.

If that's true, you need to find a journalist to follow it up because it doesn't sound like justice at all.

quote:
I have yet to find anyone, man or woman, friend or stranger, after all this time later, who believes this man was guilty.


The arresting officer was a woman.
The prosecution and defence were women.
The judge was a woman.
The accusers were women.

None of this, in-and-of-itself is really very relevant.

If the case is unsound, you should have someone investigate it and not bring all of this other irrelevant stuff into the conversation.

quote:
That's the difference.
In 2017 even to be accused of an offence is to be automatically and indelibly guilty of the unforgivable sin - even if the case is dropped.

Mud does indeed stick and people will always whisper as the 'exonerated' and falsely accused man walks past them.

This is certainly a problem, but I don't really see how it can be avoided.

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Mudfrog
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An appeal was offered but the man's family, wisely in my view, declined because of the significant strain on the his health if he went through it all again.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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mr cheesy
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Well if the judge said that they thought he was innocent but convicted anyway, that should be reflected in the court record.

I suspect it is more complicated than this - maybe the judge didn't think there was evidence of the more serious charges but thought that they were guilty of something more minor.

I suppose the conditional discharge suggests that the judge didn't think it was really serious.

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arse

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Mudfrog
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I fail to see how anyone can prove 'sexual intent'.
Plus why the use of the sex offenders' register?
Harsh!

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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mr cheesy
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I don't know. And I'm not going to speculate.

As I said, if the thing was as blatant as you are suggesting, then I think you need to find a journalist to investigate it.

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arse

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Barnabas62
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Mudfrog

There is always a problem in discussing real life cases unless there are reports in the public domain which you can link to. And you might not want to do that anyway, to protect the privacy of individuals.

Clearly what happened is close to your heart. It might be worth your while to consider whether anything further is to be gained from discussing details here.

So far as the principles are concerned, the legal position is that there has been no shift in the burden of proof, but greater consideration is given these days to the treatment of alleged victims in court. In cases where accusations are demonstrably false (there may also be evidence of malice), courts have been quite severe in their treatment of the false accuser. I think the courts do in general try to strike a reasonable balance these days. There will always be exceptions - it isn't a perfect system.

Sir Cliff Richard's argument was different. His anonymity was breached despite the fact that he was never charged. He considers that to be unfair and I agree with him. Once charges have been laid, I don't think there is a case for anonymity. You can't stop the wagging tongues - or inflammatory press reporting (at least not easily).

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Musfrog: examples can be found and told in ways to prove any point. Proves nothing whatsoever.

In your example you say "conditional discharge". Here that means if the accused complies with conditions, there are no consequences. If he was finded and registered, it wasn't conditional.

Further, you as manager, did you observe the alleged offence? If not, then you're not a witness. If defence statements were not used, then the defence did not present them.

Was the accused in any form of supervisory, or other work-related relationship with the person accusing? Was there a status and positional differential between them?

[ 09. November 2017, 12:37: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:


In your example you say "conditional discharge". Here that means if the accused complies with conditions, there are no consequences. If he was finded and registered, it wasn't conditional.

I don't think this is the situation in the UK. A "conditional discharge" means that you get a fine and no other (eg custodial) penalty.

You get put on the register whether you go to prison or not.

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arse

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:


In your example you say "conditional discharge". Here that means if the accused complies with conditions, there are no consequences. If he was finded and registered, it wasn't conditional.

I don't think this is the situation in the UK. A "conditional discharge" means that you get a fine and no other (eg custodial) penalty.

You get put on the register whether you go to prison or not.

No, it is as No Prophet describes:

https://tinyurl.com/y7vx769b

No punishment = no fine.

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Barnabas62
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Not sure. I think conditional discharges are normally covered by a period of time, during which the original charge can be re-opened if there is a further offence. So I think someone may be placed on the Sex Offenders Register for the period of time set by the conditional discharge.

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Curiosity killed ...

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Placement on the Sex Offenders can be timed, I've come across that for a particular case.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Placement on the Sex Offenders can be timed, I've come across that for a particular case.

I think anyone getting a sentence of up to 30 months has to register for a spell of up to 10 years (presumably set by a tariff of some sort) and that above 30 months it's register for life.

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Curiosity killed ...

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I've come across someone who did not get a custodial sentence, but was put on the sex offenders register for a fixed period. I am pretty sure the offence was to do with downloaded illegal porn (ie children).

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
No, it is as No Prophet describes:

https://tinyurl.com/y7vx769b

No punishment = no fine.

Well it seems absolutely sure that a conditional discharge means you get on the sex offenders register, see here - where it is stated that one is on the register for the duration of the conditional discharge.

And according to this you still pay the Victim Surcharge, and possibly other fines and costs.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Ah, right. Presumably there is flexibility in the sentencing guidelines for that sort of thing.

(in response to Curiosity killed...)

[ 09. November 2017, 14:14: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
No, it is as No Prophet describes:

https://tinyurl.com/y7vx769b

No punishment = no fine.

Well it seems absolutely sure that a conditional discharge means you get on the sex offenders register, see here - where it is stated that one is on the register for the duration of the conditional discharge.

And according to this you still pay the Victim Surcharge, and possibly other fines and costs.

Other costs yes. But a fine is considered a punishment and that doesn't happen under a conditional discharge. A fine is a specific thing in law; other costs are not fines. Having to sign the register is not considered a punishment either; it's a public protection measure. Things like 'fine' and 'punishment' have precise meanings in law.

[ 09. November 2017, 14:19: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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mr cheesy
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OK. I'm wrong. But it is consistent to say that someone got a conditional discharge and had to pay something to a victim and also was put on the register. Possibly this is not technically a fine.

[ 09. November 2017, 14:29: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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Brenda Clough
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This is everywhere now, US Senate candidate Roy Moore accused of molesting teen girl.
This is a good example of why waiting for the courts to grind around to a verdict is sometimes impossible. The election is in December; a good decision surely cannot be made in that time frame. The last thing that any voter would want to do is to vote for a man who gropes underaged girls. (Women beyond their teens? Oh, go wild, you can be president.) There are four women with similar stories, lowering the odds that this is just one lying slut. Moore himself is highly problematic, laden with baggage that you could kick up on Google, and this one more straw on the camel's back is already getting other Republicans to call for his withdrawal.
It is sad but too common, that public figures who loudly tout their own Godliness and moral stature are unmasked like this.

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lilBuddha
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One of my favourite comedians, and a bit of a hero, Jo Brand on why the smaller harassments matter.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Brenda Clough
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Somewhere else on the internet we are discussing how far this should go. Like, suppose every other man you know has groped a pussy in the day. Should they be outed, shamed, fired, held up to ignominy and scorn?
I suggested the dividing line should be whether they are alive or dead. If you're dead, you get a bye, it can then be consigned to history. The past is another country; I do not care if Dwight D. Eisenhower or Benjamin Disraeli squeezed a knee. An exception could also be made for people like George HW Bush, who is clearly either senile or under heavy meds. Every other man? The pillory.

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Brenda Clough
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Missed the edit window, but this is too good not to cite. The headline says it all, but here's the money quote:
“Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus,” Alabama State Auditor Jim Zeigler told The Washington Examiner. “There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual.”

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Ohher
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Apparently he overlooked the Bible passage where Mary, unlike the women complaining about Moore, consents.

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Barnabas62
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[Projectile]

Jim Ziegler's comment is just vile.

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Mudfrog
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Firstly, no consent in modern law can be given even if you wanted to. A minor can be as willing as anything, but legally it's non-consensual.

Secondly, there is nothing in the Bible about the ages of Mary or Joseph. There;s a lot of summising (Mary was 12, 'Joseph was an old man', as the song says).

I myself have said in carol services in years gone by that Mary, being unmarried, would have been 13 or 14.
I think it would be a brave minister who trotted that stuff out nowadays!

Best to stick to what the Bible actually says - just because she was a virgin doesn't mean she was a child. There's nothing to suggest Joseph was old, a widower, or anything like that.

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G.K. Chesterton

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lilBuddha
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Given the time period, a young Mary/adult Joseph is a reasonable assumption.
But it isn’t a reasonable pairing now nor when Moore allegedly did so.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mr cheesy
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I don't think we should really be taking marriage guidance (and/or sexual guidance) lessons from the bible. And those who do should be loudly mocked.

Stick to the damn point: we all agree that doing this with a 12 year old is bad, whatever the blessed Mary may or may not have been.

edit: sorry this isn't attacking Mudfrog, I was trying to direct it at the ridiculous Republican defenders

[ 10. November 2017, 11:14: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

Best to stick to what the Bible actually says - just because she was a virgin doesn't mean she was a child. There's nothing to suggest Joseph was old, a widower, or anything like that.

Also, those traditions that say Joseph was an old widower also say he had no sexual contact with Mary ...

(As a point of ahistorical interest the Protevangelium of James says she was 16.)

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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I thought the point of the Mary story was to have God plant his seed into unplowed soul. With the ancient belief that women provided only the growth medium for the man's planting. Because the seed is wholly God, Jesus is fully divine. The biblical is of course that God asked for her consent.

The thing is anachronistic. Those who wrote the story didn't understand biology. The perpetual virginity of Mary is something else entirely. It seems the point is motherhood, not marriage. With Joseph a weak character, 2 dimensional in biblical accounts. He gets to raise another's child, and has an unconsumated marriage, notwithstanding mention of Jesus' brother, which means he and Mary had a normal sex life or we accept explaining away the other kids as from another mother or marriage.

There's something pathological in all of this mythology. Where women have sexuality as a precious possession which men regulate. Taking either legtimately or illegally. And it's not really women's.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I thought the point of the Mary story was to have God plant his seed into unplowed soul. With the ancient belief that women provided only the growth medium for the man's planting. Because the seed is wholly God, Jesus is fully divine. The biblical is of course that God asked for her consent.

And to me that is the difficulty, as there is such an imbalance of power here. Can one realistically say that Mary had any real choice in the matter? If not, then is God guilty of abuse?

The radical Catholic feminist theologian Mary Daly wrote: "It should not be imagined that Mary had any real role in this conception and birth. ... the Virgin means only the vessel waiting in purity for the bearing of the Saviour. ...

"In the charming story of “the Annunciation” the angel Gabriel appears to the terrified young girl, announcing that she has been chosen to become the mother of god. Her response to this sudden proposal from the godfather is totaled nonresistance: “Let it be done unto me according to thy word”. Physical rape is not necessary when the mind/will/spirit has already been invaded".

Strong words indeed - but does she have a point? (I preached on this a couple of years ago and got a wide variety of reactions!)

[ 10. November 2017, 13:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Ricardus
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These are very good questions. I've started a separate thread to discuss the tangent relating to Mary.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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la vie en rouge
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# 10688

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I’ve always assumed that Mary did have the choice to say no. The angel turns up and says she been chosen for something extremely special but which is also going to suck a whole lot in some very major respects. It’s up to her whether she wants to go with it. If she says it’s too hard, then God chooses someone else. She agrees to sign up for both the honour and the suckiness. I'm uncomfortable with narratives that take away her agency.

In the old cliché, God is a Gentleman. He could force us all to do all sorts of things all the time, but He doesn’t. God Himself (!) doesn’t abuse his power to get people to do things they don’t want to do. Predatory men everywhere, take note.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Mr Cheesy is right. Whatever the Alabama moron says, Moore had no business forcing himself upon a 14 year old girl. She was clearly below the age of consent, and in fact she did not consent -- she was horrified and upset. He has no business to force himself upon anybody, male or female (with male Republicans it's important to say that).

It is especially outrageous because Moore has set himself up for years and years, as an arbiter of sexual morality. He has been very willing to tell everybody what they should do in bed and with whom. A Post columnist has kindly collected a list of the many righteous pronunciations that Moore has made over the years.

Where's the verse about the whited sephulchre? That's the one for him.

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Because the seed is wholly God, Jesus is fully divine.

Replied to this and Baptist Trainfan on the other thread.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Stetson
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# 9597

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I look forward to hearing Jim Zeigler's biblical rationales for other examples of Republican misbehaviour.

Headline: REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE SELLS HIS DAUGHTER TO PIMP TO PAY OFF GAMBLING DEBT

Zeigler: Well, look at Lot...

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Every time I think they've hit bottom, OMG, new depths appear. This is from Jerry Moore, the Senate candidate's brother. He was on NBC and said, "It's kind of like when Jesus Christ hung on the cross. King said turn him loose, we got nothing against him. Kill the other guy, Barabbas. Now they crucified Christ, and he never did nothing. And I'm not saying Roy's like Christ. I'm saying the allegations, the way they're treating him, it's like the way they treated Christ. They just don't want to believe that God's in control of this."

I only hope the NBC reporter asks whether God was in control of Ray's hand as he reached for th1 14-year-old.

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Lyda*Rose

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# 4544

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Moving a ways from politicians and deities... Now this is a pretty good apology: Lewis C. K.'s statement about his misbehavior. I very much hope it is sincere and not better-than-average PR.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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There are those who condemn it as self-serving, inaccurate, and omitting the key word 'sorry.'

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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This is a great article, written by a conservative columnist. After years of dismissing the complaints of women, he allows that we should not always but some of the time be heeded. And what changed his mind? The Me Too movement, which produced so much testimony that he could no longer attribute it all to feminine cupidity or foolishness.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There are those who condemn it as self-serving, inaccurate, and omitting the key word 'sorry.'

Because it is self-serving. He thinks the damage done is that the women no longer have him as an idol.
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a great article, written by a conservative columnist. After years of dismissing the complaints of women, he allows that we should not always but some of the time be heeded. And what changed his mind? The Me Too movement, which produced so much testimony that he could no longer attribute it all to feminine cupidity or foolishness.

Too bad he will likely represent a minority who will change their minds.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Lyda*Rose

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# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There are those who condemn it as self-serving, inaccurate, and omitting the key word 'sorry.'

Good article. I had a feeling it might be mostly PR. And an unequivocal "I'm sorry" would have been much better than saying he felt remorse. But I don't always pigeonhole explanations as excuses. Where their brains were at is part of the truth of the situation. As long as they don't say that made it okay, I can cut a little slack.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Lyda*Rose

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# 4544

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To clarify: I don't cut slack for their actions, just what they have to say about them.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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{I've been trying to figure out whether I should say this, or how. I think it might be important. So please bear with me. If you get angry, please skip to the end and read that.}


...when there's a lot of justified rage against certain people, it can spill over onto other people...

So I gently suggest that decent guys and trying-to-be-decent guys be extra circumspect about touch, comments, and sexual behavior.

A few guidelines, which you probably already know, but just in case:

--Don't behave remotely sexually (however playful you might think it is) with someone over whom you have power.

--No whistling "appreciatively" at people passing by, or people you know (kids included). (I've yet to hear a woman say she likes that, and we generally take it as very inappropriate.)

--Hands off, literally.

--Don't make sexual jokes.

--ASK FIRST, politely, if you want to behave sexually with a person. Unless they very specifically say "Yes", don't proceed.

If, for whatever reasons, you find that problematic, talk to a therapist who can help you figure out if there's a problem you need to address.

I've been in a bunch of "me, too" situations, throughout my life. I know there are good guys. I also know that sometimes guys think boundary lines are fuzzy. And I know that many, many victims/survivors of abuse/harassment are raging. If we/they go all Krakatoa, you don't want to unnecessarily be in the way.

FWIW, YMMV. Apologies for any offense. I'm pragmatic, and this is me acknowledging that there are a) decent guys and b) I don't want them hurt. (Not always easy for me.)

[ 11. November 2017, 04:28: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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I could condense it down even further for you: Do as you would be done by. You do not want your crotch grabbed? Don't grab crotches. You don't want your boss chasing you around and around the xerox machine? Don't chase your secretary. You would dislike it if your 14-year-old were assaulted? Don't assault 14 year olds.

I can't find the article now that says this, but essentially all women are demanding is to be treated as human beings. Alas, that this is such a radical and controversial demand. I was going to pop back up there and change 'demanding' to 'asking', but I have left it. We asked, for a long time. Now we're going to demand.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I could condense it down even further for you: Do as you would be done by. You do not want your crotch grabbed? Don't grab crotches. You don't want your boss chasing you around and around the xerox machine? Don't chase your secretary. You would dislike it if your 14-year-old were assaulted? Don't assault 14 year olds.

Unfortunately I think the opposite is true: those who do these things to others do want others to do it to them. They want to live in a society where these things are normalised so that they can get regular sexual encounters to their taste.

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arse

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Well, not exactly. They would like to be in a society of predators, I am sure. Crooked Don will not denounce Roy Moore; if Moore should become a Senator (God forbid) then the two of them would have a fine time chasing skirts and grabbing pussies. But they do not want to be in the vulnerable position. The victim. Nobody imagines themselves in that role, and it is this failure of imagination that makes the Golden Rule so unhelpful. The yobs who insist that they would not at all mind being catcalled or chased in the street are lacking in imagination. They cannot walk in another's shoes.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Pertinent scene from "Sex and the City":

Miranda is walking down a street in New York City. She's already having a bad day.

There's a group of construction guys in the street. One of the them starts cat-calling her--what he'd like to do with her, etc. He clearly thinks it's funny.

Miranda's had enough, so she turns and calls him on it. Total fury. Basically, "oh, so you want to do this, that, and the other? Ok, right here and right now!"

The guy looks scared, and says "hey, lady, calm down, I'm married!"

Miranda responds with an Italian insult and an Italian gesture. Then walks on.

One of my favorite scenes in the entire series.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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stonespring
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# 15530

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Sorry if this has already been discussed on this thread. If it has, what were the general sides of the argument?

It would help the Democratic Party and other institutions a lot I think if it showed consistency by distancing themselves from Bill Clinton. Not that he is likely to ever run for office again. And this has nothing to do with Hillary, at least for me (I'll let other people debate the stories of Hillary trying to intimidate, punish, or discredit Bill's accusers).

This would be as simple as not letting Bill campaign or fundraise for your campaign if you are a candidate or Democratic/progressive political group and not paying Bill the crazy sums he collects to speak if you are a corporation, nonprofit, NGO, educational institution, foreign government etc., that would like to appear morally upright.

I am not referring to adultery in Bill's case but to what looks like a long history (perhaps discontinued in the 90's but never really atoned for despite apologies re: Monica Lewinsky) of harassment of women, possibly extending to sexual assault and/or rape in some of the allegations. There probably is not enough evidence to convict Bill of a crime but it seems it is high time that he face the consequences to his reputation and livelihood that Weinstein, Spacey, Roy Moore, Louis C.K., etc., all are currently experiencing.

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