Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:
Getting back to the original purpose of this thread, may I suggest a title change to "What are we going to do about men?"

Apparently Garrison Keillor has now been accused of inappropriate conduct, according to the Washington Post.

---

And Minnesota Public Radio has ended all contracts with him, and there's talk of changing the name of "Prairie Home Companion". (For those who don't know: it's an old-timey radio show he created, long-running and beloved. He retired from the show last year, and it's now hosted by Chris Pheelie, and changed somewhat.)

This one really shocked me. I don't know the truth of it. But...


And journalist Matt Lauer has been fired, after 20 years, from NBC's "Today Show" for inappropriate conduct. Someone on the news said this had been known. He had a button on his desk that would lock his office door. In one case, he got a woman in there, locked her in, and forced her to have sex. Etc.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posted                         

quote:

---

“I put my hand on a woman’s bare back,” he told the Star Tribune by e-mail minutes after MPR’s statement. “I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled. I apologized. I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it. We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called.”

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Caesar's tax payer funded computer must be clean, let alone his wife, I suppose.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I suppose this had to be plainly stated so that everyone knows it. No. No one wants to see your penis.

---

Brilliant! Thx for this, Brenda.

The opening made me think of the musical/movie "How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying". And that reminded me of the scene with "A Secretary Is Not A Toy" (MetroLyrics).

In the performance, though, it's iffy whether the characters really mean the lyrics. But the lyrics are good.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
The Minneapolis Star Tribune also covered the story. Keillor told them:

quote:

---

“I put my hand on a woman’s bare back,” he told the Star Tribune by e-mail minutes after MPR’s statement. “I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled. I apologized. I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it. We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called.”

---

As I read that, it's more serious than the original news that he simply put his hand on her back. It sounds like a) she was wearing an open shirt (presumably over something else, maybe a halter top); and b) he slipped his hand up *under* her shirt.

I don't know what the truth is. But, if true, this isn't good.

---

quote:

---

Keillor told the Minneapolis Star Tribune he committed an accidental act of indecorum when, intending to pat a colleague on the back, he accidentally reached underneath her untucked shirt.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Damn, missed the edit window. No, my mistake. He wrote about Al Franken. Here is a (free) think piece from the Atlantic about Keillor's downfall.

---

quote:

---

That effect is its own kind of landscape, its own kind of frontier—a version of manifest destiny in which expansion is not geographical but ideological, and in which justice, rather than justification, is the guiding ethic. The new American landscape is a cultural space that is cognizant of power differentials and mutual respect. It is one that strives for equality. And it is one that takes for granted the conviction that belittling those who are less powerful—all the women are strong—will have, finally, meaningful consequences.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't know what the truth is. But, if true, this isn't good.

---

The WNG site interprets somewhat similarly to me.

quote:

---

Keillor told the Minneapolis Star Tribune he committed an accidental act of indecorum when, intending to pat a colleague on the back, he accidentally reached underneath her untucked shirt.

---

Putting his hand under her shirt and sliding his hand up 6 inches, by his reckoning, is very different from simply patting an emotional colleague on the back.

---

quote:

---

A few guidelines, which you probably already know, but just in case:

--Don't behave remotely sexually (however playful you might think it is) with someone over whom you have power.

--No whistling "appreciatively" at people passing by, or people you know (kids included). (I've yet to hear a woman say she likes that, and we generally take it as very inappropriate.)

--Hands off, literally.

--Don't make sexual jokes.

--ASK FIRST, politely, if you want to behave sexually with a person. Unless they very specifically say "Yes", don't proceed.

If, for whatever reasons, you find that problematic, talk to a therapist who can help you figure out if there's a problem you need to address.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Writer C.J. Cherryh condensed the rules down even further for us the other day: Don't do anything that you wouldn't want done to you in a cell.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
saysay--

In what way are those guidelines unreasonable, please?

Thx.

---

quote:

---

--Don't behave remotely sexually (however playful you might think it is) with someone over whom you have power.

---

quote:

---

--No whistling "appreciatively" at people passing by, or people you know (kids included). (I've yet to hear a woman say she likes that, and we generally take it as very inappropriate.)

---

quote:

---

--Hands off, literally.

---

quote:

---

--Don't make sexual jokes.

---

quote:

---

--ASK FIRST, politely, if you want to behave sexually with a person. Unless they very specifically say "Yes", don't proceed.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:


The real problem here is that there is no due process. Just as with Franken -- who agreed to undergo an ethics investigation and abide by the outcome -- Keillor has been ousted with no due process. Sen. Killebrand and others crying "Off with their heads!" do nobody any service when they cast due process aside. It's the Republicans who want to rule by fiat; liberals do themselves no favors by adopting the same tactic.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:
The real problem here is that there is no due process. Just as with Franken -- who agreed to undergo an ethics investigation and abide by the outcome -- Keillor has been ousted with no due process. Sen. Killebrand and others crying "Off with their heads!" do nobody any service when they cast due process aside. It's the Republicans who want to rule by fiat; liberals do themselves no favors by adopting the same tactic.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We must also distinguish sharply between due process in a court of law, and employment. If you are on trial in a court you get your innings, the defendant has rights. But your employer does not owe you a job; you can get canned for any reason or no reason at all.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
ETA: Reply to Ohher and Twilight
Hang on.
You are seriously saying that people who have been accused retain their positions? So the person accused of paedophilia should still run your child's crèche? Removing an accused person is SOP.
of accusations.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:
The real problem here is that there is no due process. Just as with Franken -- who agreed to undergo an ethics investigation and abide by the outcome -- Keillor has been ousted with no due process. Sen. Killebrand and others crying "Off with their heads!" do nobody any service when they cast due process aside. It's the Republicans who want to rule by fiat; liberals do themselves no favors by adopting the same tactic.

---

This is all about due process for the accused person. There has never been due process for victims. They get nil, and the bar in criminal court is so high that most didn't even try to initiate any process whatsoever. Now the things have shifted. The question is not to have the past due process reinstituted, it is to decide what the new due process should be. Which balance things better.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
ETA: Reply to Ohher and Twilight
Hang on.
You are seriously saying that people who have been accused retain their positions?

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:
The real problem here is that there is no due process. Just as with Franken -- who agreed to undergo an ethics investigation and abide by the outcome -- Keillor has been ousted with no due process. Sen. Killebrand and others crying "Off with their heads!" do nobody any service when they cast due process aside. It's the Republicans who want to rule by fiat; liberals do themselves no favors by adopting the same tactic.

---

This is all about due process for the accused person. There has never been due process for victims. They get nil, and the bar in criminal court is so high that most didn't even try to initiate any process whatsoever. Now the things have shifted. The question is not to have the past due process reinstituted, it is to decide what the new due process should be. Which balance things better.

---

Ah, it the, "We were unfair to X in the past so let's be unfair to Y in the present and that will fix everything," plan. It's how OJ Simpson got away with murder. I don't think it serves anyone.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
ETA: Reply to Ohher and Twilight
Hang on.
You are seriously saying that people who have been accused retain their positions?

---

Perhaps you could just point out where exactly I said this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Whoa. No one said anything like that at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:

In our hypersexualized culture, where intimacy seems to been erased from our cultural menu, it is perfectly possible for two people to part company after a sexual encounter with one sincerely believing he's had consensual sex and the other sincerely believing she's had sex against her will.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The issue right now is that the legal system is massively unfair to victims. It's awful.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:
The real problem here is that there is no due process. Just as with Franken -- who agreed to undergo an ethics investigation and abide by the outcome -- Keillor has been ousted with no due process. Sen. Killebrand and others crying "Off with their heads!" do nobody any service when they cast due process aside. It's the Republicans who want to rule by fiat; liberals do themselves no favors by adopting the same tactic.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:

In our hypersexualized culture, where intimacy seems to been erased from our cultural menu, it is perfectly possible for two people to part company after a sexual encounter with one sincerely believing he's had consensual sex and the other sincerely believing she's had sex against her will.

---

Sorry, this is rubbish. Rape, date rape and other sexual abuses date back farther than our "hypersexualised" culture.
Yes, having two different ideas of what occurred can happen, but it is often due to male expectations that far pre-date any cultural shift.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:

In our hypersexualized culture, where intimacy seems to been erased from our cultural menu, it is perfectly possible for two people to part company after a sexual encounter with one sincerely believing he's had consensual sex and the other sincerely believing she's had sex against her will.

---

Sorry, this is rubbish. Rape, date rape and other sexual abuses date back farther than our "hypersexualised" culture.
Yes, having two different ideas of what occurred can happen, but it is often due to male expectations that far pre-date any cultural shift.

---

Again, try reading what I wrote. I did not claim that rape, sex assault, date rape, and other abuses did not exist before these current times. I am just pointing out that communication about sex, and communicating our expectations, hopes, desires, and needs about sex is often fraught, and often nonexistent, and often very badly managed even when attempted. The faults here are not necessarily exclusively on the masculine side.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You said ' In our hypersexualized culture'. I am actually hypersexual. It brings compulsive thoughts and desires, but it does not force actions. I have never once even considered engaging in sex without explicit consent or a partner initiating every stage of the encounter.
Modern culture is not the factor you claim. If anything, modern culture is bringing more awareness that communication is important.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You said ' In our hypersexualized culture'. I am actually hypersexual. It brings compulsive thoughts and desires, but it does not force actions. I have never once even considered engaging in sex without explicit consent or a partner initiating every stage of the encounter.
Modern culture is not the factor you claim. If anything, modern culture is bringing more awareness that communication is important.

---

My apologies for using a term in a way which differs from your more direct experience. I intended no slight to you or others similarly situated.

I've also been around for possibly more decades than strictly necessary. Contemporary culture, at least as I experience this in today's USA, emphasizes and exploits sexuality in far more explicit ways, and far more often, and in more numerous ways, than the one I experienced, say, in the late 1950s and early 60s. Your mileage may vary; so be it.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:
It should be noted that Franken has not been "ousted", he's planning to resign. Under pressure, yes, but he hasn't been "ousted" by the Senate voting to eject him, which is the only way he could be "ousted" at this point.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:
To take a broader point, most employment in the U.S. is at will. This means that employers can (and do) fire employees for any reason or no reason without much restriction.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You said ' In our hypersexualized culture'. I am actually hypersexual. It brings compulsive thoughts and desires, but it does not force actions. I have never once even considered engaging in sex without explicit consent or a partner initiating every stage of the encounter.
Modern culture is not the factor you claim. If anything, modern culture is bringing more awareness that communication is important.

---

My apologies for using a term in a way which differs from your more direct experience. I intended no slight to you or others similarly situated.

I've also been around for possibly more decades than strictly necessary. Contemporary culture, at least as I experience this in today's USA, emphasizes and exploits sexuality in far more explicit ways, and far more often, and in more numerous ways, than the one I experienced, say, in the late 1950s and early 60s. Your mileage may vary; so be it.

---

I did not feel a slight, but feel that terminology so applied misses reality.
My point was that what I actually experience is what people imagine is caused by sexuality being more on display. Whilst I agree that society is more sexualised, I disagree that this is a cause or excuse for sexual harassment or abuse. The culture that created the expectations of sex is, IME/IMO older. Cinema from the 1940s and 1950s is far worse in how it treats sexuality. The expectations of female acquiescence is fairly rapey in those decades.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by simontoad:
Speaking of the expectations of female acquiescence, I suppose somewhere in this thread that I have been avoiding is a discussion of pornography. There are some fairly rapey expectations on display there, inter alia, although the more destructive portrayal is probably the idea that women are in every circumstance and relationship imaginable up for sex all the time.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:
It should be noted that Franken has not been "ousted", he's planning to resign. Under pressure, yes, but he hasn't been "ousted" by the Senate voting to eject him, which is the only way he could be "ousted" at this point.

---

LOL. We might ask Mr. Franken just how profoundly resigning under heavy pressure from his own party differs from being ejected by the Senate (a highly likely, but not necessarily certain, outcome had push come to shove).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ohher:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:
To take a broader point, most employment in the U.S. is at will. This means that employers can (and do) fire employees for any reason or no reason without much restriction.

---

As someone with a long and checkered employment history, sometimes with some small authority to hire and fire of my own, I can only say that's not my experience. Well, hiring is usually straightforward enough. Firing people is another matter. Most companies I've worked for had pretty well-defined policies in place about what would constitute cause, and what procedures people in my position had to follow to effect a dismissal that would not then lead to potential legal action or Labor Board hearings or some such.

I do, of course, understand that there are many other kinds of companies, and that many workers have absolutely zero protection, and that if more of us would only recognize that forming unions is perhaps the shortest route to securing some protection, we'd likely all be better off.

---

quote:

---

Last month, MPR was notified of the allegations which relate to Mr. Keillor's conduct while he was responsible for the production of A Prairie Home Companion (APHC). MPR President Jon McTaggart immediately informed the MPR Board Chair, and a special Board committee was appointed to provide oversight and ongoing counsel. In addition, MPR retained an outside law firm to conduct an independent investigation of the allegations.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

It isn't clear cut, but the overall research suggests porn≠negative, not inherently. Overuse of porn appears to be of potential harm, as does violent porn. Both are often indicative of prior behaviour patterns, rather than the patterns being caused by porn.
I am not a massive fan of the objectification of women that is a huge feature of the majority of porn. However, I think porn reflects the objectification problem that society has rather than the reverse.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I am certain that porn gives men the idea to do stupid things.

---

quote:

---

I wonder if the solution to the problem postulated in the thread title is not sex education. Much much better sex education, to counterbalance all the misinformation in porn.

---