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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Instruction of Children
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
@anoesis. Good stuff. Yeah, the OT's full of great dark stories, folk tales, myths, fables, allegories, it sits in the pantheon around the Greek ones in concentric circles of time and culture (Egyptian, Babylonian, Norse, Celtic), as long as they're given equal weight and subject to sound educational principles.
But they're not.
And as you imply, Prods are desperate to get anyone 'saved', a bankrupt enterprise, and the only captive audience they've got is pre-pubescent church kids.
On good, decent, contemporary, open, honest, safe, useful moral education, what does the Bible, ESPECIALLY the gospels, Acts and epistles, clearly have to say to anyone? Let alone kids.
It needs deconstructing and Prods can't do that. Roman Catholics and Orthodox have their beautiful enduring traditions, low Protestantism has textism, obsession with trying to live in the first century without having been an ancient Jew, Greek or Roman and blissfully unaware of the two thousand years of enculturation it has gone through since.
Sigh.
What do low Protestants think they that have that everyone, starting with kids, needs? The grammatical-historical method of looking at entrails? What does this giblet mean? What is God trying to say to us with this mesentery? This needs MORE Bible study! MORE prayer. NEVER deconstruction. That is watering down the word of God!
Sigh.
The closest I get to instructing children is the God Slot after the soup kitchen on a Friday night. In the herding of cats I try and find a way of encouraging anyone to share how they feel and why they think they feel that way. All the while cringing at the absurd texts and declarations of God's love from the 'top'. So pretty close really.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
mr cheesy
I wonder how many children are damaged by attending mainstream, normal Sunday schools. Sunday school attendance has fallen dramatically, which perhaps signifies that Sunday school really is a very unpleasant environment for children.
I don't know. I've known various kids who have been through this kind of religious schooling and have emerged relatively unscathed.
My worry is that if they ever properly understood the bible stories that they were being taught, it ought to scar them and that if it doesn't something is seriously wrong.
quote:
I think the more usual attitude among leavers is that Sunday school is simply boring and babyish, but perhaps parents who don't send their children at all do worry that the experience might be harmful in some way.
OTOH, it seems so normal now for modern kids to access age-inappropriate video games, films and websites. Family break up and the influence of the wider society also mean that many children (from non-religious families) hardly live in a protective cocoon when it comes to scary ideas.
Yes, and I don't think this is a good thing. I thought long and hard about how to bring up my children, and determined that I was going to ensure that they were only exposed to various scary things about life in a timely manner and in a supportive environment.
It hasn't always gone to plan, but it is wrong to suggest that my child has never been exposed to scary things.
Some kids enjoy being a bit scared, but my child didn't*. Through the years I consciously and slowly introduced various ideas when they were ready for them and in an age-appropriate way.
This seemed undermined when going to church and the church activities included colouring-in weapons in a Roman soldier's armour or learning about Samson.
Yes, there is a time and place for learning about the Romans - I'm just not sure it is when a small child and in the context of being told that this is something important and spiritual.
* and still doesn't. During early teens when most kids were reading vampire books, ghost stories etc, my child was reading books about animals and other children.
[ 01. November 2017, 12:44: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Well...I get that as parents we have to make snap choices about 'suitability' all the time. But this is Purgatory - even if we don't acknowledge the complexity of the way we decide 'what's suitable' in the moment we are doing it, it's surely informed by a load of deep-down stuff which is not simple.
In the context of the kind of purgatorial knob-polishing we're indulging in, it's perhaps a grotesque posture to pull up that I had to tell my kids, at age 4 and 2, that one of their classmates was dead. Later I had to confirm the playground rumour that the father was responsible for the death. I suppose I am saying that life is unsuitable, and that I welcome digging into that with my kids in the context of bible stories. More than welcome it.
I wasn't aware that I was "knob-polishing", I was expressing my view (which seems to be generally unpopular) that the bible isn't really suitable for young children. Much of it is unsuitable even for older children.
I would never say to a child that a parent was responsible for the death of a classmate.
Shiny knob or not, I have a responsibility to try to protect my child from nightmares when they are 4 years old.
[ 01. November 2017, 12:49: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
mr cheesy: 'My worry is that if they ever properly understood the bible stories that they were being taught, it ought to scar them and that if it doesn't something is seriously wrong.'. Superb.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
When Our Place was built over a century ago, there were 400 children in the Sunday School (they'd have been meeting in the original Mission Church, but how they packed 'em all in, I know not - they must have had at least two Sunday afternoon sessions).
I rather doubt if all their parents had been in church for the High Mass at 11am, though some might have attended Evensong.
Nowadays (and taking into account the changed demographics - fewer children in the parish), we reckon on 20 or so (7-12s) at the monthly Crafty Church, and maybe up to 6 (under-16s) on an average Sunday morning.
Yes, Sunday School has indeed had its day - but the Beavers/Cubs/Scouts continue to flourish, with 120+ on their books, and a waiting list!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've known various kids who have been through this kind of religious schooling and have emerged relatively unscathed.
My worry is that if they ever properly understood the bible stories that they were being taught, it ought to scar them and that if it doesn't something is seriously wrong.
Does anyone 'properly' understand Bible stories?? AFAICS there's a whole lot of disagreement. Admittedly, the average Sunday school teacher probably isn't a serious theologian, so nothing is going to be explored in any great depth.
I suppose if you belong to a church you can at least discuss with the Sunday school teacher what's being taught. I don't know how much power the individual will have in changing things, but it might be easier if the Sunday school is fairly small, and if the questioning parent has more influence and status in the church than the teacher.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
In the simple terms that the stories are not suitable for children.
Well...I get that as parents we have to make snap choices about 'suitability' all the time. But this is Purgatory - even if we don't acknowledge the complexity of the way we decide 'what's suitable' in the moment we are doing it, it's surely informed by a load of deep-down stuff which is not simple.
In the context of the kind of purgatorial knob-polishing we're indulging in, it's perhaps a grotesque posture to pull up that I had to tell my kids, at age 4 and 2, that one of their classmates was dead. Later I had to confirm the playground rumour that the father was responsible for the death. I suppose I am saying that life is unsuitable, and that I welcome digging into that with my kids in the context of bible stories. More than welcome it.
This.
I'm currently inflicting the chapter-a-day on my kid, and it has (among many other things) allowed us to discuss the existence of evil in the world, and cope better when that evil comes close to home. I'd rather he get his exposure to such things through the Bible than through sensationalized movies and TV. He's going to get it, one way or the other.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
I wasn't aware that I was "knob-polishing"
Sorry - I was sending myself up, on the queasy realisation that I was half-way through using the death of my kids' friend as a rhetorical device on an internet chat forum. What a thing is pride.
quote:
I would never say to a child that a parent was responsible for the death of a classmate.
I didn't either, at first - I guess it was unnecessary, or even unsuitable. But it became necessary when the knowledge circulated through the school. We don't always get to choose.
Thinking back, I felt a little as I felt when first telling my very young kids about Easter.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm currently inflicting the chapter-a-day on my kid, and it has (among many other things) allowed us to discuss the existence of evil in the world, and cope better when that evil comes close to home. I'd rather he get his exposure to such things through the Bible than through sensationalized movies and TV. He's going to get it, one way or the other.
At least you are uniquely placed to work through it with him and discuss tricky bits as they come up. In my home, the Bible was read, as is, in King James's English, all of it - and I remember my Father stumbling embarrassedly through the Song of Songs, the eternal boringness of Chronicles, and the serious weirdness of Ecclesiastes. I think they would have been afraid to leave anything out - I mean, if it's the word of God, it's the word of God, right? And therefore it's ok.
The oddest thing is, I don't remember asking a lot of questions about it, despite being basically a question-generating machine as a child. There was all this familiarity with words like circumcision, fornication, harlot, without knowing what any of them meant.
The earliest thing I recall being uncomfortable with is the story of Rahab (who was, if I remember correctly, an harlot... - but that's beside the point). What a shitty trick to play on your own people, to save your own skin. But apparently it's honourable to behave dishonourably, so long as you choose the right God...
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
But apparently it's honourable to behave dishonourably, so long as you choose the right God
I hope I don't sound aggressive with this - but your statement interests me. ISTM our g(G)od(s) determine what, for each of us, is honourable; and if someone or something directs us to act dishonourably, then that person / thing is not our God, even if 'God' appears to be their name.
Christians have the incarnation as a touch-stone; WWJD? And here is our problem with the OT, when W(we think)JW(have)D(ne) looks at odds with the portrayal of God the father. Humanists have a different problem; their g(G)od isn't written down - but the strength of their feelings about dashing the babies heads against the rocks suggests, to me, He's real enough.
(I'm mansplaining to myself again - I'm slow on the uptake and writing my thoughts down gives them, to me, a plausibility they never seem to enjoy when rattling in my head. Hence the non-porn internet, perhaps.)
I really would recommend Marilynne Robinson on the OT, as suggested upthread. She's doing my head in right now.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
Maybe the Bible is like a crossword in that way - you make better progress with it if you put it down and do some other stuff for a while. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
This. I'm not sure there are any suitable stories to teach children from the bible. The idea seems zany in a lot of ways.
I don't have kids. But if I did, and had the same spiritual progression/journey, I doubt that I'd raise them in church or Sunday school. I wouldn't want to teach them that things from my "don't know" stack are definitely true, and I wouldn't want to expose them to the nastier aspects and interpretations of the Bible and Christianity.
I'd definitely teach them the ethical stuff, "love thy neighbor", etc., and answer any religious questions they had the best I could, and any questions about my own ideas.
At some point, there would probably be conversations about things various people believe: Christianity, other religions, atheism and humanism {waves to Susan}, agnosticism, seeking, and simple disinterest. We might visit various groups. If the kids showed interest in a particular thing, I'd try to find a way to help them connect with it.
I wouldn't make a practice of reading the Bible to them, though I'd probably let them know my "don't know" view. And I might familiarize them with the basic things that I like and that they'd probably run into anyway--23rd Psalm, Lord's Prayer, etc.
And, of course, I'd worry about doing the right thing. But that goes with being a parent.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
Maybe the Bible is like a crossword in that way - you make better progress with it if you put it down and do some other stuff for a while.
This. I'm not sure there are any suitable stories to teach children from the bible. The idea seems zany in a lot of ways.
I don't have kids. But if I did, and had the same spiritual progression/journey, I doubt that I'd raise them in church or Sunday school. I wouldn't want to teach them that things from my "don't know" stack are definitely true, and I wouldn't want to expose them to the nastier aspects and interpretations of the Bible and Christianity.
I'd definitely teach them the ethical stuff, "love thy neighbor", etc., and answer any religious questions they had the best I could, and any questions about my own ideas.
At some point, there would probably be conversations about things various people believe: Christianity, other religions, atheism and humanism {waves to Susan}, agnosticism, seeking, and simple disinterest. We might visit various groups. If the kids showed interest in a particular thing, I'd try to find a way to help them connect with it.
I wouldn't make a practice of reading the Bible to them, though I'd probably let them know my "don't know" view. And I might familiarize them with the basic things that I like and that they'd probably run into anyway--23rd Psalm, Lord's Prayer, etc.
And, of course, I'd worry about doing the right thing. But that goes with being a parent.
*waves back*!! Super post, Golden Key.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
But apparently it's honourable to behave dishonourably, so long as you choose the right God
I hope I don't sound aggressive with this - but your statement interests me. ISTM our g(G)od(s) determine what, for each of us, is honourable;
It sounds like you might be saying we each of us make God in our own image, to suit/post-rationalise our own morality.
Or perhaps you were saying that if I'm uncomfortable with this God's modus operandi, as relayed in the story of Rahab, then (he)'s not the God for me?
I think my position is something more like this: The Bible records in a variety of places that God helped the Children of Israel to great victories in which a vast number of of their enemies were slain, often including non-combatants. Occasionally, the tables were turned, and the Israelites were carried off captive here and there. The Bible in turn records this as being because they had done evil in the sight of the Lord. But what if it's just all a figure of speech? A lens through which the stuff that happened is viewed by the writer(s)? Cultures wax and wane, kings come and go. Nations led by kings who are focused leaders do well, nations led by kings primarily interested in eating, drinking, and whoring, tend to fall (and displease the Lord). I mean, would you seriously give credence to the idea that the late lamented British empire on whose coattails you and I are still riding, rose to greatness due to God's singular favour? (There are of course those who believe that very thing, which looks to me like a sort of communal prosperity-gospel doctrine - you can tell who God is pleased with, because they're doing very well for themselves, thanks).
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re Rahab:
Weren't her (Jewish?) people captives there in Jericho? So her tipping off Joshua et al. (IIRC, red cord out a window?) would've been to save herself and her people from their captors/ enslavers/ oppressors.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Rahab:
Weren't her (Jewish?) people captives there in Jericho? So her tipping off Joshua et al. (IIRC, red cord out a window?) would've been to save herself and her people from their captors/ enslavers/ oppressors.
FWIW.
What makes you think Rahab and her family were Israelites?
Anyway, I went back and looked at the first few chapters of Joshua. It doesn't read as though the people of Jericho were under siege to me. Of course, if you want to take it literally, it's all the same one way or another, and the Israelites had no need of Rahab, because the walls fell down when they all shouted at Joshua's command. One does wonder what happened to Rahab's house (which was in the wall) on such an occasion. Any way you look at it, she was a turncoat. But it's like the old saying, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, isn't it?
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
anoesis--
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
What makes you think Rahab and her family were Israelites?
A possibly faulty memory, which I indicated by the various question marks and parenthetical comments.
I've just poked around in Joshua 1 & 2. Looks like they weren't Israelites. Rahab did take the Israelite God seriously, on the basis of news about the Israelites. And she bargained with Joshua's people to save her entire extended family. She seemed to figure the Israelites were going to win, because God, and there wasn't anything she could do to stop it, So she wanted her family to live.
I'm possibly also vaguely influenced by a screen portrayal I saw, where R was supporting her elderly, disabled father; and IIRC they might have been captured from somewhere.
Anyway, you absolutely have the right to hate the story!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Rahab:
Weren't her (Jewish?) people captives there in Jericho? So her tipping off Joshua et al. (IIRC, red cord out a window?) would've been to save herself and her people from their captors/ enslavers/ oppressors.
FWIW.
What makes you think Rahab and her family were Israelites?
Anyway, I went back and looked at the first few chapters of Joshua. It doesn't read as though the people of Jericho were under siege to me. Of course, if you want to take it literally, it's all the same one way or another, and the Israelites had no need of Rahab, because the walls fell down when they all shouted at Joshua's command. One does wonder what happened to Rahab's house (which was in the wall) on such an occasion. Any way you look at it, she was a turncoat. But it's like the old saying, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, isn't it?
The whole book of Joshua is problematic. It has some of the most beautiful promises is Scripture (1:9)-- if you rip them from the context of tribalism, imperialism, and genocide
And no, Rahab is not Jewish. The fact that a non-Jewish harlot becomes part of the lineage of Christ is one of the few redeeming qualities of the book
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
The Bible records in a variety of places that God helped the Children of Israel to great victories in which a vast number of of their enemies were slain, often including non-combatants. Occasionally, the tables were turned, and the Israelites were carried off captive here and there. The Bible in turn records this as being because they had done evil in the sight of the Lord. But what if it's just all a figure of speech? A lens through which the stuff that happened is viewed by the writer(s)?
I think I agree. Since she's in my mind, I'll give you Robinson's take; things went well, things went bad, and in their public history, their most sacred memoirs, the Jews let it all hang out and *publically* questioned how was it, that the promises they thought they could rely on turned again and again to dust? In public, in the official history / public records office of the time - were we really committed to the God of truth and love, or were we just f*cking about and pleasing ourselves?
This sort of public introspection made them pretty exceptional in the annals of the times. The call of the prophets, back to faithfulness, the whole thing.
If there's no God, then the record is like a humungous stereotypical Jewish-neurotic wearing of the heart upon the sleeve, for no purpose. I can imagine it as a Woody Allen sketch. If there is - then this is the record of people trying to find Him, and getting it wrong when they win, and wrong when they lose.
G*d, I'm slow on the uptake. There's nothing striking in that at all, is there.
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
m_i_m
There is God, because there's stuff (50:50, Pascal's toss of the coin and all that), but He can only do stuff that looks like He otherwise doesn't, that He isn't.
What tilts the balance from heads or tails, for me, is Jesus, the most complex entity we have encountered and the question arises as to what God did, if anything, to establish a milieu for Incarnation.
Could Judaism have evolved all by itself? If so, it also couldn't. What cradle for the babe would have done?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
@anoesis, I struggle with those Bright and Light parties too. I've been involved in the local one and wondered what the point was when half the children who attended went to the church party then out trick and treating. A party that runs from 5:30pm to 6:15pm just sets them up for the night.
I led the Toddler Church here for three years, it's often called a Pram Service - sort of toddler meeting and coffee chitchat for the parents with a bit of a service and activities based on a religious theme. After three years of trying to find stories I was willing to tell toddlers I agree with mr cheesy.
- Genesis chapter 1, pretty story of creation and all, but it's actually out of order from what we know scientifically - I did tell that one as a story of how the world started, but I really wasn't happy with Adam and Eve and the serpent with the repercussions.
- Jacob and Esau - let's trick the old man and win out, plus all the other stories about Jacob?
- Noah's Ark, lovely children's story with the animals going two by two, but what about all the world that wasn't saved? We had an illustrated children's Bible which had a picture of drowning people around the Ark, shudder.
- Joseph and his coat of many colours - it's fine try to kill your brother, or trick your brothers to prove their good faith? And how do you explain Potiphar's wife?
- Moses - basket in the bulrush, those plagues being delivered to Egypt, wandering in the wilderness, crossing the Red Sea (killing all the soldiers), we conveniently forget that Moses killed someone early on.
- Joshua and the walls of Jericho, followed by genocide
- David and Goliath, followed by genocide
It got harder as I continued leading the group - initially I went in all innocent and worked through the standard children's tales. The next year when I had to think of something different I started reading things properly and being a lot more cautious. We had parents from a range of Christian backgrounds, so I didn't want to interpret too much - which I was being urged to do. I ended up following a pattern that sort of followed:
- carefully selected OT stories in the autumn term,
- Nativity through Advent, building a crib week by week: an angel first, Mary & Joseph and a donkey, shepherds and sheep, a stable, crib and baby, finishing with three kings and camels for Epiphany.
- life of Jesus sort of following the lectionary until Easter - usually finishing with Palm Sunday around the holidays and Holy Week services, referring them to the Hot Cross Bun service on Good Friday, that told the story of the crucifixion and Easter,
- the post resurrection stories until Ascension;
- bits of Acts and something about Paul - that he sent letters and travelled (walnut shell boat in a tray with a map underneath)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I don't have children. But I do have grandchildren whose reading material is heavily censored by their parents, and I'm not sure this is doing them any favors in the long run.
On the other hand, context is everything in Bible stories, and little kids don't have much context other than the knowledge that the Bible is an important book about God that everyone wants them to read.
Peter Enns, a non- conservative Evangelical scholar, wrote a series of books about the Bible for kids, and I think it's instructive that he front- loads the Gospels. He points out, like Luther did, that Christians understand the whole of Scripture through a Christocentric lens.. so why don't we teach kids about Jesus first. And that still provides plenty of opportunity to discuss issues of good and evil without launching headlong into stories about seemingly God- sanctioned genocide and the like.
I like that approach -- save the " texts of terror" for kids who already have a strong grasp on the Jesus story.
And -- I'm not an inerrantist, so if I were teaching the Bible to young kids, I'd avoid "Word of God" language. I would describe Bible stories as being written by people who really wanted to love and understand God, and who used both storytelling and their knowledge of their people's history to say something about God and about how they saw God interacting with human beings. That would leave room for discussing violence and genocide in the OT without making assumptions that they were God's idea.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
My kid IS a question box about Scripture, and fairly often he gets "I don't know" as a response. That's okay. It's usually followed with "What do you think?" and I get to find out what's going on in his head. He might as well start wrestling with Scripture now, as he'll be doing it lifelong with the rest of us.
I do find that a close reading of Scripture avoids an awful lot of headaches. Plenty (not all) of the horrific bits get defused when one realizes that they are in the text because they happened, not because God is endorsing them. It's also useful to remember that we are NOT Israel and cannot draw precedents from a lot of what they did. (I think it's helpful to my son to see America in a distinctly non-central role.)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Perhaps I'm too literal, but my problem with those bits is that so often it explicitly says Gos not just endorsed but mandated them. Joshua genocide, the bloodthirsty Mosaic Law...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yeah and how often since have people believed God mandated them to do something crazy.
I do not know whether God did or God didn't. I do know that any book that did not include it does not really understand the human part of the relationships.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You're only being too literal if you think it's literal Karl. That it's gospel.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
What a load of utter, destructive bullshit.
This is doing no service to anyone. Many children are remarkably emotionally sophisticated - every single contact I have had has taught me this - and the most likely conclusion to be drawn from this activity is that church is stupid. This is how the people grouped together as the "dechurched" get the experience that de-churches them - a thought for those who would laud this ridiculous activity to ponder in great detail.
If the leader really believes this, they need a Christianity transplant as soon as possible. The idea that beings made in the image of God need this kind of evisceration and assimilation into some kind of Borg-like entity is so far beyond chilling and infinitely beyond anything Christian it belongs in some kind of psychological pathology lab, in the relevant equivalent of a specimen jar full of alcohol.
Seriously, this is infinitely worse than doing nothing: it is doing damage on several layers which may never be undone.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All textists, bibliolaters believe this. I did.
[ 02. November 2017, 20:10: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Anoesis, I'm very much with you on Halloween in New Zealand.
I had hoped that pumpkin story was made up by a particularly inept youth worker, but as Cliffdweller (?) recognised it this is obviously not so.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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