homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Why do some Evangelicals have a problem with transgender? (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Why do some Evangelicals have a problem with transgender?
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Seriously, why?

They're meant to be sola Scriptura, yes? Everything essential is meant to come from Scripture, yes?

I can see where they get to their position on abortion, even if I think that it's lacking nuance.

I can see where they get to their position on homosexuality, even if I think it obviously violates natural justice.

But transgender issues don't figure in Scripture. There's nothing there. There's one mention of cross-dressing I know of, but that's not the same thing, and besides their issue seems to be transgender, not transvestites anyway. And it's one verse; hard to build on a single verse in the Pentateuch which has nothing to compare it with.

So the basis is really shaky. Why has this become a new Shibboleth?

[ 11. November 2017, 23:10: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17623 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I suspect the new attack on transgender persons by the Religious Right is simply an extension of the attack on lesbian and gay people. In the same way, that some evangelicals view same-sex marriage as an attack on traditional marriage, I suspect, transgender rights is seen as an attack on patriarchal gender norms, which according to a certain evangelical outlook, was dictated by God directly from heaven.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4269 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Because they are forbidden now to discriminate against black people. So now they have to have something else, to gin up fear and drive donations. Abortion is a classic hardy perennial, but you can't just keep on waving the same terror -- people don't get scared about it any more. So here's a new one.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5672 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I thought it may be this:
quote:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Posts: 7558 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I thought it may be this:
quote:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Massive reading into the text there to get it to say anything about transgender. You'd have to bring a transphobic agenda to the text yourself in the first place.

[ 12. November 2017, 00:17: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17623 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
But transgender people are still male and female.

Arguing that surgically assisting someone's physicality to match their innate gender identification is tampering with God's handiwork is like arguing that it's sinful to fix a cleft palate or some other congenital disorder because " God nade them that way." I'd also bet money tat in the case of intersex children Evsngelicals are frantic to have the kid surgically assigned to one gender or the other.

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6331 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Judith Butler points out a reason for transphobia is that it signifies the fluidity and social construction of gender.

In lay person's terms, if I believe that being male is divinely sanctioned, which includes not only the physical features of maleness, but also the male gender role (the man is head of the household, that men only can preach in the pulpit, that men should govern, etc), if suddenly, if it is demonstrated that things are not so simple and clear cut, then the notion that the male gender role is superior is also threatened.

It also needs to be pointed out that generally speaking, there is more stigma towards male-to-female transition than female-to-male transition. A professor once put it bluntly to me, to demonstrate the underlying misogyny behind transphobia as a way to explain the transphobic point of view: "Why would anyone want to choose to be the weaker sex?"

[ 12. November 2017, 00:49: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4269 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I thought it may be this:
quote:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Massive reading into the text there to get it to say anything about transgender. You'd have to bring a transphobic agenda to the text yourself in the first place.
Really? It could be read, and note I *do not* read it this way, that if God is All Good and All Mighty and All Knowing, and He created someone male, to change this would be going against His Ordained Plan (TM). And if you wonder where I'm coming from with this, someone once said this to me.

If this is what you are responding to, sorry, I'm having trouble seeing it as a massive reading into the text (I'd say it's a wrong interpreation of the text). But it is Sunday afternoon, and my brain has been switched off since I got up.

Posts: 7558 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
LucyP
Shipmate
# 10476

 - Posted      Profile for LucyP     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
But transgender people are still male and female.

Arguing that surgically assisting someone's physicality to match their innate gender identification is tampering with God's handiwork is like arguing that it's sinful to fix a cleft palate or some other congenital disorder because " God made them that way."

There are 2 problems with this assertion: the definition of "innate gender identification", and the end result of surgery and hormone treatment.

Gender identification is not something that can be objectively measured, unlike a person's chromosomal makeup or physical genital phenotype. In some instances, it may be fluid rather than fixed.

In other cases, intense or distressing feelings of gender identification may be a result of a psychological tendency to black-and-white thinking and becoming overly fixated on an issue, which can lead to exploitation of vulnerable people for financial or political gains.

Fixing a cleft palate benefits speech and swallowing. Surgery to remove or alter genital organs has cosmetic outcomes that (if successful) may please the individual, and may allow the organs to be used in different ways for sexual practices, but doesn't necessarily confer any net functional benefit (eg the nerves involved are easily damaged during surgery, so the sexual practices may not be particularly enjoyable, or there may be collateral damage affecting continence) and the organs lose any reproductive capacity that they had. The person needs to take artificial hormones, which are laden with potential side effects.

Posts: 235 | From: my sanctuary | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

 - Posted      Profile for Dark Knight   Email Dark Knight   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I agree with Ian, it is a wrong interpretation. And in some recent research, I talked with a trans-man who had experienced this Scripture shot at transgender from the hip.

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2841 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
LucyP
Shipmate
# 10476

 - Posted      Profile for LucyP     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:


In other cases, intense or distressing feelings of gender identification may be a result of a psychological tendency to black-and-white thinking and becoming overly fixated on an issue, which can lead to exploitation of vulnerable people for financial or political gains.
[/QB]

Sorry, the
URL link above was ineffective due to a deleted colon. Fixed it.

Posts: 235 | From: my sanctuary | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
They most likely think it's a lifestyle choice (as they do about LGB folks); and therefore against the way God made them, and therefore a sin.

If they can be made to understand that it's a medical condition...

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17986 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Seriously, why?

They're meant to be sola Scriptura, yes? Everything essential is meant to come from Scripture, yes?

If you read "male and female he created them" as meaning that God created you male or female, then you read it as a theological claim that gender is equivalent to biological sex, and so that transgender doesn't exist.

And, as a consequence, a straight trans woman is "really" a perverted gay man in a dress, who is also denying his God-given gender.

As far as understanding what transgender really is, I think we know two things:

1. We know how trans people report that they feel.

2. There is some evidence that the brains of people who identify as trans men operate more like the brain of the average man than that of the average woman. But we don't really understand brain functions in enough detail to say more than that.

Posts: 4847 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411

 - Posted      Profile for Jay-Emm     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Really? It could be read, and note I *do not* read it this way, that if God is All Good and All Mighty and All Knowing, and He created someone male, to change this would be going against His Ordained Plan (TM). And if you wonder where I'm coming from with this, someone once said this to me.

It's still a reading in the text and not directly what the text says. After all if you want to be flippant it does say he made them Male and Female*, and (more seriously) as this is directly (pretty near parallised) following from "in the image of God" anything it asserts about humans it asserts about the Three.

*I don't know if that works in Hebrew.

Posts: 1615 | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's not just evangelicals. It tends to be a Religious Right thing across the board.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15456 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Whatever your deviation from the God ordained Edenic norm, due to the Fall, you can only be a Christian if you are a eunuch for the Kingdom's sake.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

 - Posted      Profile for Russ   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Seriously, why?

They're meant to be sola Scriptura, yes? Everything essential is meant to come from Scripture, yes?

You're asking a serious question, which can only be answered by evangelicals themselves or by others who by an act of empathy can think themselves into the evangelical mindset.

I'm not evangelical, but it seems to me that taking the Bible as a whole, it describes a society in which men and women have different social roles, and there's never any doubt about whether someone is male or female. So how could someone who takes the Bible seriously, as normative, possibly conclude that Christians should deviate from that ?

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 3032 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Bible is normative?! It describes normative societies?!

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
LucyP: The trans people I know are happier and healthier post- transition thsn pre-.

Also: Ironic that " black- and- white" thinking about gender norms is being used as a conserative Christian objection to trsnsgenderism. Who is more binary in thinkung about gender norms than conservative Christians?

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6331 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is not a theoretical issue for me. It became a huge and public issue in the conservative evangelical university where I teach, when a non-tenured professor came out as transgendered and transitioned (female to male).

Pretty much everything that has been said upthread (which I agree with) was part of the brouhaha. As academics, the top administrators were or soon became aware of the science behind this and all that was said upthread. There were high level discussions, carefully and compassionately done with great diligence and thoughtfulness. Experts were brought in for awareness training.

And in the end, his contract was terminated. With full pay, with regret, with compassion (at least from my pov-- his may differ). A popular and accomplished teacher was let go. Reading between the lines, it seems to me that, as educated and aware the admin and faculty became on transgender issues, the inherent difficulty in communicating all that to our diverse constituencies-- prospective students and donors-- was significant enough to pose a real threat to the financial viability of the institution.

I was left appreciating the care and compassion under which the process was undertaken, not particularly angry (but of course it wasn't me that was terminated) but deeply, deeply sad. It seemed to display everything that is broken and wrong in our world and in our evangelical community in particular.

This was a couple of years ago. There's been progress (in this institution) since, although I'm not sure this particular scenario would play out any differently today. And I'm as heartbroken today as I was back then.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11087 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

 - Posted      Profile for Lyda*Rose   Email Lyda*Rose   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
cliffdweller:
quote:
And in the end, his contract was terminated. With full pay, with regret, with compassion (at least from my pov-- his may differ). A popular and accomplished teacher was let go.
"Compassionate" [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21293 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

 - Posted      Profile for Dark Knight   Email Dark Knight   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The Bible is normative?! It describes normative societies?!

It does not. No one has ever claimed it does. Evangelicals IME claim exactly the opposite.

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2841 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
irreverend tod
Shipmate
# 18773

 - Posted      Profile for irreverend tod   Email irreverend tod   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In answer to those who think that gender reassignment surgery is tampering with God's handiwork, what with us all being made in the image of God and all.... This could be a way of God trying to get us to understand him/her/it more? I'm being ambiguous about the gender of divinity if such a thing exists for want of a lack of vocabulary to explain it better.

And to learn to love a bit more while we're about it.

--------------------
Diocesan Arsonist and Lead thief to the Church of England.

Posts: 51 | From: England | Registered: May 2017  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

 - Posted      Profile for Tortuf   Author's homepage   Email Tortuf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Jealousy
Posts: 6881 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The Bible is normative?! It describes normative societies?!

It does not. No one has ever claimed it does. Evangelicals IME claim exactly the opposite.
Om sure oll 'ave ter get me coat again Dark Knight, but I thought Russ ... OHHHH! He ent an evo.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The Bible is normative?! It describes normative societies?!

It does not. No one has ever claimed it does. Evangelicals IME claim exactly the opposite.
Then how do we decide which of its many contradictory postulates to believe, and commandments to follow?

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63122 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by irreverend tod:
In answer to those who think that gender reassignment surgery is tampering with God's handiwork, what with us all being made in the image of God and all.... This could be a way of God trying to get us to understand him/her/it more? I'm being ambiguous about the gender of divinity if such a thing exists for want of a lack of vocabulary to explain it better.

Of course (as you know) we tamper with "God's handiwork" all the time. Vaccines are tampering with God's handiwork. Building a dam is tampering with God's handiwork. Orthodontics is tampering with God's handiwork. Selective breeding is tampering with God's handiwork. Corrective lenses are tampering with God's handiwork. And on, and on.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63122 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by irreverend tod:
In answer to those who think that gender reassignment surgery is tampering with God's handiwork, what with us all being made in the image of God and all.... This could be a way of God trying to get us to understand him/her/it more? I'm being ambiguous about the gender of divinity if such a thing exists for want of a lack of vocabulary to explain it better.

And to learn to love a bit more while we're about it.

More practically, if surgery is tinkering with God's design there's a long long list of things that we do to ourselves that need to be addressed by evangelicals. Braces on your teeth; cataract surgery, hip or knee replacement, c-sections, bunionectomies, the list is endless.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5672 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's telling, I suppose, that a supposedly Christian university puts money before justice.
Posts: 2837 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
More practically, if surgery is tinkering with God's design there's a long long list of things that we do to ourselves that need to be addressed by evangelicals. Braces on your teeth; cataract surgery, hip or knee replacement, c-sections, bunionectomies, the list is endless.

Or cosmetic surgery - which is huge in parts of the US.
Posts: 3842 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
cliffdweller:
quote:
And in the end, his contract was terminated. With full pay, with regret, with compassion (at least from my pov-- his may differ). A popular and accomplished teacher was let go.
"Compassionate" [Roll Eyes]
Well yeah, the air quotes fit. And as noted, those are my words-- not the admin, and certainly not the well-qualified teacher who was let go.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11087 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by irreverend tod:
In answer to those who think that gender reassignment surgery is tampering with God's handiwork, what with us all being made in the image of God and all.... This could be a way of God trying to get us to understand him/her/it more? I'm being ambiguous about the gender of divinity if such a thing exists for want of a lack of vocabulary to explain it better.

Of course (as you know) we tamper with "God's handiwork" all the time. Vaccines are tampering with God's handiwork. Building a dam is tampering with God's handiwork. Orthodontics is tampering with God's handiwork. Selective breeding is tampering with God's handiwork. Corrective lenses are tampering with God's handiwork. And on, and on.
After the horribly regressive
Nashville Statement came out (which bashes women, gays, and a host of others, but seems to reserve it's most biting scorn to transgendered people) in one of many such debates (on this forum and others), I mentioned my infant granddaughter, who was born with 6 different heart defects, the most serious was it is a single ventricle heart. Had she not had surgery on her 2nd day of life, she would not have survived the week. She has just come thru her 2nd open heart surgery (well, praise God!) with at least one more before she turns 3. It seems fair to me as well to note that, for a literalist, it would appear God created her with a single ventricle heart, and we are "tampering" by re-plumbing it to make the blood flow to her lungs. In fact, we (well, not me, the surgeons) are re-plumbing it in a way that is unnatural-- not found in nature (at least among humans-- there are single-ventricle animals but not humans). I would agree that by the same argument used against transgendered persons, we would be defying God by approving her surgery.

I raised this several times in debates with the fundies defending the Nashville Statement. The response: crickets.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11087 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's telling, I suppose, that a supposedly Christian university puts money before justice.

Yes. In our defense, I suspect that had they not done so, the entire institution would have gone down, and we'd all be out of a job-- and students out of an education (we do a pretty good job of reaching some underserved populations).

But yeah.

It felt crappy then, it feels crappy now.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11087 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
More practically, if surgery is tinkering with God's design there's a long long list of things that we do to ourselves that need to be addressed by evangelicals. Braces on your teeth; cataract surgery, hip or knee replacement, c-sections, bunionectomies, the list is endless.

Or cosmetic surgery - which is huge in parts of the US.
Even regular cosmetics which hide what God created.

[ 12. November 2017, 22:40: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16958 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274

 - Posted      Profile for Kwesi   Email Kwesi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
While I agree that scripture does not offer much help regarding sex/gender transition issues, there is the case of the Ethiopian eunuch, though the surgery he endured was almost certainly non-consensual and, therefore, an involuntary transformation of his sex/gender identity. An imaginative interpretation might point out that while his enforced condition left him in limbo regarding his sex/gender identity and rendered him ritually unclean, he was, nevertheless, worthy of baptism into the Christian faith as one of the first converts. It is also clear from the narrative that the Eunuch identified his own experience with that of the Suffering Servant. Would it be pushing the story too far to suggest that the sufferings of Christ might be related to the theme of this discussion? I think not,
Posts: 1523 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

 - Posted      Profile for Nicolemr   Author's homepage   Email Nicolemr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think it's simply that they think transpeople are icky... the same way they think gay people are icky. And anything icky must be a sin, right? [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11659 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We also have to factor in the way transgendered persons have become the latest scapegoat by politicians intent on pandering to the religious right-- and whipping up some fear-mongering to help drive it home. It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg: conservative religious preachers start piling on gays and lesbians; the pols pile on to win their vote, but after awhile one homophobic right wing politician starts to look the same as another homophobic right wing politician. They have to make them selves stand out from the crowd, so all of a sudden we need to be Really Really Afraid of transgendered people preying on nice sweet church ladies in public bathrooms. No, we don't need to worry about actual shootings or medical bankruptcies or Senate pedophiles-- not when there's the imaginary boogeyman that sounds vaguely sexual and Not Like Me so it must be deviant! Sure, there's not much of a record of these assaults actually happening (at least not assault by transgendered people-- and attacks on them-- well, those don't count...) but we're really really sure we're on the brink of a major epidemic of such random assaults.

The GOP has figured out that fear sells even better than sex does. If you can package the two together, you've got a winner.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11087 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

 - Posted      Profile for Dark Knight   Email Dark Knight   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The Bible is normative?! It describes normative societies?!

It does not. No one has ever claimed it does. Evangelicals IME claim exactly the opposite.
Om sure oll 'ave ter get me coat again Dark Knight, but I thought Russ ... OHHHH! He ent an evo.
I think Russ' claim is disingenuous, as evangelicals tend not to claim that the world of the Bible is normative, but marred by sin, and that people of faith are supposed to live by another standard. This standard is outlined in the Bible, and condensed by a set of exegetical and hermeneutical practices that I am not commenting on here. The point is that Evos tend to think the people in the world of the Bible failed to live up to that standard, because they couldn't.

Russ is just wrong about the evangelical worldview, which they claim not to share.

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2841 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

 - Posted      Profile for SusanDoris   Author's homepage   Email SusanDoris   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
But transgender people are still male and female.

Arguing that surgically assisting someone's physicality to match their innate gender identification is tampering with God's handiwork is like arguing that it's sinful to fix a cleft palate or some other congenital disorder because " God nade them that way." I'd also bet money tat in the case of intersex children Evsngelicals are frantic to have the kid surgically assigned to one gender or the other.

Oh, well said. It is all so sad.

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 2945 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I'd also bet money tat in the case of intersex children Evsngelicals are frantic to have the kid surgically assigned to one gender or the other.

Oh, well said. It is all so sad.
As at least a historic evangelical, my default position regarding many situations (not just this one and not just on sexuality), has long been that of Paul: "each of you should remain as you were when God called you" (1 Cor 7:20) which ISTM reflects the Hippocratic Oath of "first do no harm" and the commonly-held wisdom "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

That is not an absolute law, but I think due reflection is called for before any invasive surgery.

I decided I could never be a member of the UK Evangelical Alliance when I discovered (thanks to ChristinaMarie on these boards) that they were recommending reversal of transgender surgery post-conversion (I have no idea if this is still the case; I don't know where 1 Cor 7:20 fitted into their thinking).

All that said, I think intersex is a separate issue to transgender, and the question of whether surgical gender assignment is the right thing to do is an extremely vexed one. To start with, intersex covers a whole swath of distinct conditions. To carry on with, it's very hard to find out about people who have had surgical gender assignment who have found it satisfactory, simply because they are a lot less vocal (this is not to minimise in the slightest the barbarity and emotional damage suffered by those who were less fortunate).

[ 13. November 2017, 07:01: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17183 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think the truth is that many (perhaps most) Evangelicals are deeply conservative and pander after a "simpler time" when the didn't have to deal with complexity and could just make black/white statements about things that don't affect them.

I have long thought that despite their loud shouting, the bible doesn't really come into it - and more often is a way to back up their pre-existing bias and opinion rather than the source of their thinking.

Of course, the difficulty comes when the complicated issue is not about some nameless people "out there" in the world, not about someone else's child at school, not about the provision of toilets and who wears what uniform, but about one's own child.

I suggest that Evangelicals are many things, but as a group* they're not about abandoning their children.

So I suspect many feel some incredible cognitive dissonance whereby they feel the need to read (and possibly participate in) "ant-trans" theology whilst at the same time having to deal with it in their own home. Most likely they'll go through various stages of grief and denial and heartache before somehow coming to terms with the reality that their child may indeed need surgery just to be able to live with themselves.

* I know this is a ridiculous term, given the complexity of what it means to be an Evangelical

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10210 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
They are helplessly feckless slaves to a text. Been there. To a ragbag of evolving prejudice. Four thousand years of inferred oral and literary culture is the tip of ten times more. And again, and ... back in to pre-sapience. That four thousand years is nowt. There is a huge bolus of indigestible savagery stuck in, half way down, our throats, making us panic. Christians, Muslims have thousands of years to go before we either vomit it out or swallow and digest it with the enzymes of rational faith.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
They are helplessly feckless slaves to a text. Been there. To a ragbag of evolving prejudice. Four thousand years of inferred oral and literary culture is the tip of ten times more. And again, and ... back in to pre-sapience. That four thousand years is nowt. There is a huge bolus of indigestible savagery stuck in, half way down, our throats, making us panic. Christians, Muslims have thousands of years to go before we either vomit it out or swallow and digest it with the enzymes of rational faith.

I'm increasingly thinking that they're not actually slaves to a text. If anything, they're slaves to a particular interpretation of an old text which is reinforced so many times that believers cannot tell the difference between the interpretation and the text.

The evidence of this is that there are Evangelicals who believe equal-and-opposite things, with equal vehemence, allegedly based on the same biblical text.

There are clearly some Evangelicals who think hard about the text and use complicated scholarly arguments for their positions. But I think the vast majority of those who talk about "biblical truths" aren't actually talking about the bible at all, but are able to talk loudly and convincingly about their interpretation in such a way as to convince others of its validity.

In fact it seems that the definition of Evangelical is almost "talk loudly, wear sensible clothing and look sincere".

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10210 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We're saying the same thing, but you're saying it better, he said fawningly patronizingly. Behind their hermeneutics is a culturally and biologically enforced epistemology. Intelligence, intellect is no defence as you imply. It's the same for all the People of the Book and always has been. Right back to and including Jesus. It's human.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Behind their hermeneutics is a culturally and biologically enforced epistemology

he said fawningly patronizingly.

I really hate it when social scientists think they are somehow outside humanity and its frailty. Theologians too, of any stripe.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17183 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025

 - Posted      Profile for Helen-Eva   Email Helen-Eva   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Judith Butler points out a reason for transphobia is that it signifies the fluidity and social construction of gender.

In lay person's terms, if I believe that being male is divinely sanctioned, which includes not only the physical features of maleness, but also the male gender role (the man is head of the household, that men only can preach in the pulpit, that men should govern, etc), if suddenly, if it is demonstrated that things are not so simple and clear cut, then the notion that the male gender role is superior is also threatened.


Thank you - that has explained a lot about one of my cousins' attitudes to transgender people. They really really wind him up and I couldn't see why (given I doubt he's ever met one) but now you've made that point about it being about the role and rights of the male in a patriarchal society being undermined I totally get it.

--------------------
I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

Posts: 621 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As someone implied earlier, it's because the genetic, psychological and social research, taken all together, make it clear that there is a much greater fluidity in human nature than implied by a binary and fixed view of gender. That's unsettling if you like things to be settled.

And I think that underpinning this whole 'People of the Book' thing is the fear of disturbance to tradition thinking. 'This Book is right, this rock is wrong' explains anti-evolutionary views very well. You just need to extend the metaphor to 'This Book is right, this gender research is wrong'.

Lots of folks don't like being taken out of their comfort zones, preferring traditional certainties. Maybe there are a lot of conservatives of that type in evangelicalism, but personally I've found them all over the place, and not just amongst people of faith.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20928 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Aye Eutychus. We seem to be trapped in the hypnopompic phase of waking up as a species, "emotional and credulous dreaming cognition trying to make sense of real world stolidity"; the former wins in senile dementia. Jesus was as trapped by it as we but for His divine nature. I fear it's winning for now as Trump and Brexit demonstrate. How we could learn from such delusions, irrational political and religious discourse, as a culture? In the case of Trump there is a silver edge to the very dark cloud. He knows EXACTLY what he's doing. The trouble is the masses barely ever wake up to that even in plural democratic society. They fall back to sleep, lose enlightened ground, even in Scandinavia.

[ 13. November 2017, 09:02: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
it being about the role and rights of the male in a patriarchal society being undermined I totally get it.

I'm increasingly seeing this and all those other debates as ultimately being all about that, too.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17183 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
How we could learn from such delusions, irrational political and religious discourse, as a culture?

We incarnate Kingdom of God values (the last shall be first, the less you have to start with the more God can multiply and the more you have left over, in Christ there is no male nor female, the greatest is the servant of all) to the best of our ability and eschew temptations to do otherwise as best we can.

We don't do it as a culture, or as a sub-culture, but as a counter-culture.

That's being prophetic.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17183 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools