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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why do some Evangelicals have a problem with transgender?
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
This is interesting, but could evangelicals ever exist in a context where they'd be uniform and powerful enough to control a theocracy as stable as Iran's?
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I think it's probably more relevant to talk about the intersection between conservative evangelicalism and transgenderism on a more congregational level. E.g., if they're not attracted to a very binary understanding of maleness and femaleness, why would a transgender person want to belong to a con-evo congregation? Why would the teachings of some small, strict sect matter?
Out of interest, is there any sign that transgenderism (like homosexuality) is overrepresented in many parts of the church?
The US is not a theocracy, but only 20 out of 50 states have laws protecting transgender people from discrimination in employment, and there is no federal law concerning it either (6 states have laws protecting only transgender public employees, and under Obama the federal government, having no chance of protecting trans rights in Congress, tried to argue in the courts that trans people were protected by existing civil rights laws banning discrimination based on "sex"). The resistance to laws protecting trans rights is backed in large part by conservative Evangelical Protestants and conservative Catholics.
I agree that many openly trans people would probably not join a conservative Evangelical church if they were not already members of one before coming out, but they still often have to live under a lack of legal protection from discrimination that is supported by the powerful political efforts of Evangelical Protestants.
As for your last question, I do not have hard data, but I would think that the more progressive denominations, especially those that have openly trans clergy, such as the United Church of Christ, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, and the Episcopal Church - and most of all the Metropolitan Community Churches, which remain primarily a denomination that serves LGBT people - would have more openly trans members than other denominations, and possibly more openly trans people than the public at large (Unitarian Universalists and liberal Quakers also obviously belong on this list, despite their theological differences with the other denominations listed). However, because of the enormous stigma on being trans - which is much stronger still than the stigma on being gay and is even found among gay people at times - it is very hard to know what exactly the prevalence of transgender is in the public at large and how many closeted trans people are in any denomination or congregation, conservative or progressive.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
The Iran position seems positively enlightened and humane conpared with the Nashville Statement. Make of that what you will.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
The problem under discussion here seems to be essentially a political one, not a theological one. Every group is free to make rules for its own members; the problem occurs when the group gains the power to enforce its rules on people who don't want those rules.
AFAIUI certain states in the USA are under political influence from evangelicals due to local demographics. So the way to reduce that influence would be to change the demographics in those places. I wonder if any of the evangelicals' adversaries have considered how they could contribute to that.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The problem under discussion here seems to be essentially a political one, not a theological one. Every group is free to make rules for its own members; the problem occurs when the group gains the power to enforce its rules on people who don't want those rules.
AFAIUI certain states in the USA are under political influence from evangelicals due to local demographics. So the way to reduce that influence would be to change the demographics in those places. I wonder if any of the evangelicals' adversaries have considered how they could contribute to that.
I thought that the evangelicals, well, some of them, were trying to make it theological, viz. that God hates non-binary stuff, and positively glows over binary (rough paraphrase).
I would guess that a trans person in darkest Dorset might well move to London, to meet similar, don't know about the US. The only gay in the village, and so on.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
They're trying, but who cares? It only matters to the rest of us if these people gain political power, or considerable influence. No one cares about what some random Pentecostal group believes about the Trinity, because that only affects themselves.
As for London, the irony is that a transgender person is surely far more likely to meet strict evangelicals there than in Dorset! Religion in Dorset is probably far less dynamic, even though the inhabitants there are less likely to identify as atheists than in London.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
They're trying, but who cares? It only matters to the rest of us if these people gain political power, or considerable influence. No one cares about what some random Pentecostal group believes about the Trinity, because that only affects themselves.
As for London, the irony is that a transgender person is surely far more likely to meet strict evangelicals there than in Dorset! Religion in Dorset is probably far less dynamic, even though the inhabitants there are less likely to identify as atheists than in London.
Well, in the UK, that doesn't seem a danger. Even the Tories seem well-disposed to trans people, that should be, some Tories of course.
However, in the US, the combination of evangelicals and Trump is rather toxic, isn't it? For example, trying to ban them in the military seemed to have evangelical support, plus all the bathroom measures.
[ 17. November 2017, 14:19: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
As for London, the irony is that a transgender person is surely far more likely to meet strict evangelicals there than in Dorset! Religion in Dorset is probably far less dynamic, even though the inhabitants there are less likely to identify as atheists than in London.
Um no, really no. I had neighbours in Dorset who attended Father's House, Shaftesbury when it was called the Shaftesbury Christian Centre. Their teenage son was thrashed to get the devil out of him when he didn't follow the family line. I also attended school with a number of Christians who attended the evangelical church in Blandford Forum and struggled through their A level biology teaching on evolution, debating how to answer those questions in their exams.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I did Google first to see what kinds of dynamic churches existed in Dorset, but didn't come across anything in particular.
Still, maybe Dorset's churches need to go through a very boring phase.
[ 17. November 2017, 14:47: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
A side issue, but in third year seminary, I posed the following question
"Regarding the current Roman Catholic understanding that only men can be priests, what happens if a priest decides to go for gender reassignment surgery, does that mean that any masses performed after this surgery are invalid in the eyes of Rome? But presumably the priest may have identified as female before the physical transition, does that mean that she was not validly ordained? But because Rome cannot discern a person's personal gender identity (the church cannot get into someone's head), does that mean that every priestly ordination is potentially at risk for invalidity?"
Sounds positively jesuital ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
But because Rome cannot discern a person's personal gender identity (the church cannot get into someone's head), does that mean that every priestly ordination is potentially at risk for invalidity?"
That raises an interesting question. Stipulating that the experiences reported by trans people are a reflection of the underlying truth, and they really do have a "female mind in a male body", which is the truth - the brain or the body?
As a practical matter, we know how to perform operations to alter someone's physical appearance, but don't know how to alter their perception of their own gender (conversion therapies and the like have been conclusively demonstrated not to work), so in order to make the brain and body match, we only have one choice.
But if you think that priesthood requires maleness (not just as a matter of good order and tradition, but in some kind of essential way that is probably going to involve the word "ontological"), which maleness is required?
An XY body? A penis? Male gender identity?
It is logically consistent to take the line that a man is someone with a male body (and so trans women are "really" men), and in that case, a trans woman would actually be a man, and so would have had a valid ordination. This is basically the view that transgenderism is a mental disorder.
If you take the line that the trans person's experienced gender is what is real, and so a trans woman is really a woman, and probably was really a woman even when she was presenting to the outside world as a man, and was probably really a woman even before she understood that she was trans, then you either take the line that gender is fundamentally unknowable, or that gender can change with time. And both of these get you in the kind of trouble you mention.
I suspect that Rome takes the line that trans women are really men, and so a priest in the position that you describe would, in their view, be a priest who has deliberately mutilated himself. Such a man would render himself unfit for the priesthood, but this wouldn't invalidate any of the priestly functions he has performed. But I can't quite chapter and verse.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
Leorning Cniht wrote:
quote:
But if you think that priesthood requires maleness (not just as a matter of good order and tradition, but in some kind of essential way that is probably going to involve the word "ontological"), which maleness is required?
An XY body? A penis? Male gender identity?
Interestingly some of those things were addressed nearly 1700 years ago. Canon 1 of the Ecumenical council of Nicea (325 AD) says:
quote:
If anyone has been operated upon by surgeons for a disease, or has been excised by barbarians, let him remain in the clergy. But if anyone has excised himself when well, he must be dismissed even if he is examined after being in the clergy. And henceforth no such person must be promoted to holy orders. But as is self-evident, though such is the case as regards those who affect the matter and dare to excise themselves, if any persons have been eunuchized by barbarians or their lords, but are otherwise found to be worthy, the Canon admits such persons to the clergy.
The canon specifically addresses the issue of admitting castrated males to the clergy. Of course we cannot map all current concepts onto those of 325. But it will serve to exclude certain understandings such as the need to be in possession of a working penis or testicles.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I've heard some conservative Christians object to the transgender thing, in its male to female form at least, on the grounds that many transexual males want to be 'lesbians' ie. they want to have sex with women but not with willies but because they are turned on by the idea of being a woman and having sex with women.
I don't know whether this has any basis in reality, although I know transgender people who were formerly male who have sexual relations with women.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Gamaliel quote:
I've heard some conservative Christians object to the transgender thing, in its male to female form at least, on the grounds that many transexual males want to be 'lesbians' ie. they want to have sex with women but not with willies but because they are turned on by the idea of being a woman and having sex with women.
I don't know whether this has any basis in reality, although I know transgender people who were formerly male who have sexual relations with women
Well, blow me down! Knock we down with a feather! Would you believe it?
Do you know, I know numerous non-gendered individuals who encompass all sorts of sexual activities, some of which are quite disgusting. I don't know whether this is relevant. Thank God I'm normal!
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, in the UK, that doesn't seem a danger. Even the Tories seem well-disposed to trans people, that should be, some Tories of course.
At the political level maybe, at the popular level I don't know, it would probably depend on whether they were leavers or remainers.
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've heard some conservative Christians object to the transgender thing, in its male to female form at least, on the grounds that many transexual males want to be 'lesbians' ie. they want to have sex with women but not with willies but because they are turned on by the idea of being a woman and having sex with women.
I don't know whether this has any basis in reality, although I know transgender people who were formerly male who have sexual relations with women.
Much of transphobia comes from a confusion between gender identity and sexual orientation.
My view, is that the church would save itself a lot of headache, if it returns to the basic principles of our faith, if something brings about an increase of love of God and love of neighbor, it is good.
If someone chooses to live according to however they perceive their gender identity, and it brings about a deeper love of self, which can increase love of neighbor and God, then that's the important thing to focus on.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've heard some conservative Christians object to the transgender thing, in its male to female form at least, on the grounds that many transexual males want to be 'lesbians' ie. they want to have sex with women but not with willies but because they are turned on by the idea of being a woman and having sex with women.
I don't know whether this has any basis in reality, although I know transgender people who were formerly male who have sexual relations with women.
I only know one transgender woman. He was married to a Methodist minister and she is still married to her. The minister continues to serve in the Church and took a service at our place recently. They had lunch with church members afterwards and it was a happy, ordinary occasion.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
They're trying, but who cares? It only matters to the rest of us if these people gain political power, or considerable influence. No one cares about what some random Pentecostal group believes about the Trinity, because that only affects themselves.
As for London, the irony is that a transgender person is surely far more likely to meet strict evangelicals there than in Dorset! Religion in Dorset is probably far less dynamic, even though the inhabitants there are less likely to identify as atheists than in London.
Well, in the UK, that doesn't seem a danger. Even the Tories seem well-disposed to trans people, that should be, some Tories of course.
However, in the US, the combination of evangelicals and Trump is rather toxic, isn't it? For example, trying to ban them in the military seemed to have evangelical support, plus all the bathroom measures.
But that's my point; the challenge is that in the US these people have political power over others. If they didn't have this power then no one would care about their theology.
Theology seems irrelevant to most people most of the time. It only becomes relevant or problematic to them when it impinges on their lives.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
only know one transgender woman. He was married to a Methodist minister and she is still married to her. The minister continues to serve in the Church and took a service at our place recently. They had lunch with church members afterwards and it was a happy, ordinary occasion.
Out of interest, I've just read this story about the British Methodist Church's first transgender minister. I'm sure there are several in the CofE and elsewhere.
I suppose I find it unfortunate, and less than honest, that someone would go through some really important stages in life, such as marriage and the ordained ministry, without telling the other people involved that such a big part of their identity wasn't what it seemed.
OTOH, my view is that we shouldn't put the clergy on a pedestal. Now that their lives are reflecting the changes happening in the wider secular society that means the pedestal has to go, little by little.
[ 19. November 2017, 12:42: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
You are labouring under a category error. The error is in imposing an artificial division between politics and theology in this instance. This is a matter of political theology, viz. what the relationship between the ethics and norms of a faith and the society those of the faith find themselves in.
And I suppose you are free to feel as disappointed as you like, without having walked in this minister's shoes.
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Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
If many American evangelicals feel it to be their political duty to impose their theology of family and gender on the non-evangelical population at large then yes, that obviously brings both politics and theology together. But not all evangelicals take that approach. Some of them don't even vote, AFAIUI. At this point in time the USA probably needs more of the latter.
But the clergy don't 'disappoint' me. How can they if I don't put them on a pedestal? Besides which, I'm a Methodist. In Methodism, approving of how the minister lives isn't necessary. The layfolk can be quite critical, but it doesn't seem to matter. Perhaps this is partly because Methodism is lay-led to a considerable degree.
Expectations of the minister's role are also relevant. The pastoral role is of high importance in Methodism, but since theological tolerance and choice in everyday life are more or less taken for granted the minister isn't expected to be a role model for a conservative lifestyle or theological position.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Svitlana you say that in Methodism the pastor is of minimal importance because it is largely lay-led, then in the next sentence say the pastoral role is of high importance.
Which is it?
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
You also say it is "unfortunate" that a clergyperson did not feel safe enough to confide their transgender status for a long time, but you are not disappointed.
Is there a semantic distinction you are making there that only you understand?
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Svitlana you say that in Methodism the pastor is of minimal importance because it is largely lay-led, then in the next sentence say the pastoral role is of high importance.
Which is it?
The minister is obviously of importance (and I didn't say otherwise), but not really as a role model, nor as a master of theological precision. Most Methodist sermons aren't even preached by the clergy. However, the pastoral role is significant; members expect the minister above all to provide consolation and comfort when they're in need. I don't see a contradiction there. (A problem, perhaps, but not a contradiction.)
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
You also say it is "unfortunate" that a clergyperson did not feel safe enough to confide their transgender status for a long time, but you are not disappointed.
Is there a semantic distinction you are making there that only you understand?
Do you think those two words mean the same thing? I wouldn't say they do.
It's possible to think a course of action is undesirable, yet not be disappointed by someone who takes it. IMO you can only be disappointed in someone's behaviour if you expected differently of them - i.e., if you expected better. But if you just see them as ordinary people who've made a mistake or treated others in a less than decent way, then where's the disappointment? There's no disappointment if you don't put someone on a pedestal.
We should be resigned to the clergy doing what everyone else does.
[ 20. November 2017, 19:31: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I was a Methodist for two or three years and the vast majority of sermons I heard were preached by the clergy. Are you sure your experience is normative?
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
Certainly was the normal practice here for sermons to be given by Methodist clergy - in the days when there were such beasts, but still with Uniting Church. The chaplain at school for Dlet's time was an ex-Methodist, a former naval officer with a muscular Christianity, very popular with the boys.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
There is a well-developed lay-preacher tradition within UK Methodism.
My impression is that things are organised differently within Methodism in the USA and Australia and elsewhere, but here they've stuck to the old-circuit system which means that you get preachers circulating round giving sermons in different places.
Well, it means more than that, but in practice that's what happens.
My brother-in-law and sister-in-law have recently found a home in Methodism on the rebound from heavy-duty full-on charismatic evangelicalism.
They really like it but find some of the sermons very dull and rather like poor after-dinner speeches.
My own experience of Methodist preaching, both by lay-people and clergy persons is quite positive, but then, I've only dipped into it now and again.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There is a well-developed lay-preacher tradition within UK Methodism.
Which I think is partly explained by UK Methodism retaining its institutional constructs even as the pools from which it could fund and recruit full time ministers has collapsed. I've heard very good sermons by lay-preachers, and an equal percentage that have been like the very bad after dinner speeches to which you refer (or like Eddie Izzard's routine on 'Thought for the Day').
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ambivalence
Apprentice
# 16165
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've heard some conservative Christians object to the transgender thing, in its male to female form at least, on the grounds that many transexual males want to be 'lesbians' ie. they want to have sex with women but not with willies but because they are turned on by the idea of being a woman and having sex with women.
I don't know whether this has any basis in reality, although I know transgender people who were formerly male who have sexual relations with women.
I don't know any transpeople who are "in it for the sex" - you'd have to be pretty daft to imagine that hacking your bits about was likely to lead to an increase in fun times.
(Plus the effect of hormones is unpredictable - from personal experience, my sex drive has gone from "low" to "minimal" with hormone treatment and blockers - and yet I am very much happier than before because, y'know, not about the sex. It can depend on the method of hormone treatment, too. Again, not something you'd bank on leading to fun times.)
But sure, people are people. People like sex. Transpeople like sex. Some people are homosexual or bisexual or whatever. Some transpeople are homosexual or bisexual or whatever.
Posts: 22 | From: Peterlee | Registered: Jan 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've heard some conservative Christians object to the transgender thing, in its male to female form at least, on the grounds that many transexual males want to be 'lesbians' ie. they want to have sex with women but not with willies but because they are turned on by the idea of being a woman and having sex with women.
Pure projection.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I get all that, Ambivalence and Mousethief.
I seem to remember reading some research comments from John Hopkins University which some conservative Christians were citing. It suggested that some fellas were turned on by the idea of becoming 'lesbians' and so went through the transgender thing for that reason, which seems a bit drastic of that's all it was about ...
The transgender folk I know who were fellas are in relationships with women, but I don't know whether that is coin or not - as Ambivalence says, there's probably a range of sexualities involved same as with non-transgender people.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ambivalence and Mousethief.
Sounds like the name of a hipster cocktail bar.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I seem to remember reading some research comments from John Hopkins University which some conservative Christians were citing. It suggested that some fellas were turned on by the idea of becoming 'lesbians' and so went through the transgender thing for that reason, which seems a bit drastic if that's all it was about
Paint me very, very skeptical.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ambivalence and Mousethief.
Sounds like the name of a hipster cocktail bar.
Where people drink Mousethief Coolers™, but ironically.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Since sex, gender and sexual preference are different things, I don't find it a surprise that a transsexual who's attracted to woman will continue to be attracted to women after they've transitioned.
I mean, it would be stranger if they weren't.
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Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
*decloaks*
Well, I got to page 2. It's been interesting, as a trans woman, to read the thread that far but I've run out of resilience and I'll have to do the rest later.
There are a fair number of misconceptions here that I might try to address at some point, but when push comes to shove it was transition or die for me. It's still been a close-run thing. The academic discussion of whether a group of people who suffer attempted suicide rates of 40%+ - in my opinion almost entirely because of societal rejection of our needs - leaves me pretty cold. I'd ask Shipmates to keep that in mind particularly those who think facilitating transition is a bad idea.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I have been trying to tread carefully, but if I haven't succeeded then I apologise, Grey Face.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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