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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Human Nature
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
The question was: "Why not create an entirely well-behaved species?"
It seems obvious that there are many well-behaved species: grass, mushrooms, butterflies, sharks, frogs, etc. Let's try to avoid thinking only of the human species.
Can we imagine a species (of more than one individual) possessed of intelligence, imagination and free will that is not capable of making wrong choices? How would that work?
The case of cetaceans is particularly interesting. Research seems to indicate that they have an emotional life that is at least as complex as that of humans. They are intelligent. The fact that they can plan and play indicates that they have imagination. And they seem to have free will too.
I have read - though I don't know if is true - that instances have been observed of a male dolphin killing a baby dolphin, so that its mother will be interested in mating again.
And orcas who have been mistreated in captivity have killed humans. I don't think we know enough to know if this is premeditated and intentional killing (and if it is, it might be understandable in the circumstances - self defence, even), but I don't think it has been ruled out.
I tend to think that there are probably not-so-nice cetaceans as well as nice ones in their societies. Like ours.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Dolphins/porpoises (don't remember which) have been known to war among themselves. Also groups of male dolphins have been known to kidnap females from other groups.
Possibly they're about as bad and good as we are.
God help us both.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
It seems obvious that there are many well-behaved species: grass, mushrooms, butterflies, sharks, frogs, etc. Let's try to avoid thinking only of the human species.
All of those are capable of what we would call evil acts - even grasses fight each other (in their own way) for access to resources. Butterflies, sharks and frogs can be very territorial, and will fight and even kill rivals who try to enter their territory.
Male lions, tigers, leopards, wolves, hyenas etc. will all kill pups that aren't theirs in order to mate with the mother. Ants will literally dismember outsiders who enter the nest. Chimpanzees live in large family groups which regularly wage war on their neighbours in order to gain territory and resources. Meerkat families will fight other meerkat families for the same reason, but the dominant pair will also kill any young within the family that aren't theirs.
Seriously, I can't think of a single species that could be describes as being completely well-behaved.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Also groups of male dolphins have been known to kidnap females from other groups.
Not only kidnap, but rape.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Also groups of male dolphins have been known to kidnap females from other groups.
Not only kidnap, but rape.
Rape, as in have sex with against the female's will in order to instill fear? How would we know that?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Rape, as in have sex with against the female's will in order to instill fear? How would we know that?
As in "have sex with against the female's will", yes. As far as we can tell from behavioural observations, that is*. It happens in other species as well, from insects to apes.
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*= there is a strand of thought that says we shouldn't use the word "rape" to describe what animals do as we can't possibly know what "consent" means for them. Personally I think that if the female is actively struggling to get away while the male copulates with her then "rape" is a reasonable word to use.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
*= there is a strand of thought that says we shouldn't use the word "rape" to describe what animals do as we can't possibly know what "consent" means for them. Personally I think that if the female is actively struggling to get away while the male copulates with her then "rape" is a reasonable word to use.
This is an interesting question. Some species of mantis (preying mantis) have the female eat the male after copulation, with the initial theory that after mating he's useless and might as well provide nutrition to his unborn baby insects. If was also found that males copulate more reliably after their heads are bitten off and eaten. This suggests various amusing things about men, thinking and sex, and also cautions about projecting human values and nature on to animals.
It might seem easier to think of intelligent dolphins as possibly raping, but we also have species of insect which mate via "traumatic insemination" where the male basically punches a hole in the female's abdomen creating a bleeding wound to use to inject her with sperm. This seems to reinforce not using human values as a model for what happens with animals. There are other examples which are more upsetting to me as a reader about them.
We could also observe that in the non-thinking animal kingdom, that coercive sex, if a behavioural pattern produces more offspring, and this behaviour can become genetically programmed, that is is adaptive in the evolutionary sense. This has nil to do with right nor wrong nor as any form of guide or lesson for humanity.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Also groups of male dolphins have been known to kidnap females from other groups.
Not only kidnap, but rape.
Rape, as in have sex with against the female's will in order to instill fear? How would we know that?
From the nature show I saw, long ago, I think maybe they were planning on keeping the females long-term. Sex-slaves, basically. Rape of the Sabine women, etc.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I am always very tempted to say that humans are basically arseholes, but I try to keep in mind that I am extrapolating from my own experience of myself. Yet there are little daily horrors that I see and hear about, and which are enough to put the species in the dock, even if you ignore the history of Western civilisation, to name but one.
So I think it is a good rule of thumb to assume, when dealing with a human, that they are going to try something nasty. Dogs you can usually work out by seeing if they will sniff a proffered hand.
Just what the force for good that showed itself to me fleetingly some time ago and that I choose to identify with Jesus Christ has to do with my rule of thumb I can't rightly say.
And yet I did read today that a homeless bloke in Pittsburg used his last bit of cash to buy petrol for a lass whose car had run out.
It's a puzzle.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This seems to reinforce not using human values as a model for what happens with animals.
Oh, absolutely. But as long as there are people claiming that animals are good, pure and well-behaved when compared to humans there will need to be people like me to remind them of what nature is really like.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
That fits in with Yorick's question as to why God would make humans with a certain amount of bad. But we can enlarge it to nature - why so bloody? I suppose deists can argue that nature follows its own course.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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