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Source: (consider it) Thread: Prince Harry's kids
Gramps49
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Prince Harry's kids will be American citizens by virtue of their mother's citizenship. Just think, what if one of their kids becomes the President of the United States while in line for the throne?

You Brits are always playing long. It could be a way of bringing us Yanks back into the fold.

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simontoad
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One of my fantasies, although we'd have to split you up into three or four dominions to prevent you dominating the CTH games.

Seriously though, Harry's kids will be selling diet plans and flogging perfumes for a living.

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Ohher
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Doesn't that depend on their mum keeping her American citizen and/or giving birth to them on US soil? The Queen may not be best pleased with a dual-citizenship granddaughter-in-law -- the young lady would be liable for taxes to a foreign state.

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Gramps49
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It has just been announced Meghan will be applying for British Citizenship. So, false alarm.

But, technically, American citizenship is by birthright based on the parent's citizenship regardless of where they were born. Mitt Romney's father, George Romney, ran for the Presidency but he was born in Mexico. Still, he was able to run because his parents were American citizens.

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Leorning Cniht
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If, as a dirty foreigner, I acquire US citizenship, I must renounce any titles of nobility that I might happen to have. But I don't think the act of acquiring a title of nobility places an American's citizenship in jeopardy. There are precedents - The Duchess of Windsor, and Princess Grace of Monaco, for example, and I'm pretty sure that Princess Grace, at least, maintained her US citizenship.

So there's no reason for Ms. Markle not to maintain her US citizenship after her marriage; this would naturally include maintaining her obligation to pay US taxes on her worldwide income. And would also mean that any children she might have would inherit her citizenship.

[ 29. November 2017, 01:24: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
But, technically, American citizenship is by birthright based on the parent's citizenship regardless of where they were born. Mitt Romney's father, George Romney, ran for the Presidency but he was born in Mexico. Still, he was able to run because his parents were American citizens.

I could never figure that one out.

But President Obama was investigated over and over and over because of his Kenyan father -- despite the fact that he was born in the United States and his mother was a native-born American.

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Golden Key
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The whole "who qualifies as a natural citizen" game can get pretty complicated. E.g., John McCain being born in the Panama Canal Zone. It was eventually decided that he qualified, but there was a lot of argument.

I suspect there may be special circumstances where the US may informally allow dual citizenship for an American marrying into another country's royal family. E.g., American Lisa Halaby became Queen Noor of Jordan. I don't know about her citizenship; but I wouldn't be surprised if the US gov't casually ignored it. I presume she did have to become a Jordanian citizen. Actresses Rita Hayworth and Grace Kelly are other examples.

Pardon a loaded cross-Pond question, but how much of an issue is their future kids' mixed ethnic heritage apt to be? (And no, I don't mean American.) If, someday, they were close in line to the throne, would it be a problem then?

I don't mean to be insulting. It's just that, AFAIK, the British royals (at least the high-level ones) have always been very white. I don't know how Catherine of Aragon might have been regarded at the time, if she had a Mediterranean complexion.

Thx.

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Golden Key
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LC--

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
If, as a dirty foreigner, I acquire US citizenship, I must renounce any titles of nobility that I might happen to have.

You'd also have to swear to renounce any allegiance to another country. It's part of the oath you'd take.

I don't know how that works out in practice, because lots of immigrants seem to retain a strong connection to their old country. But it may primarily mean what your allegiance would be in wartime.

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Lyda*Rose

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Technically, US citizens can't hold noble titles, but I haven't heard of anyone arrested for it. Hell, one of the Real Housewives of New York, Luann de Lesseps, was married to a count and proudly bore the title countess all over the place. And she didn't have to duck when the police drove by, either.

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simontoad
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rofl, just generally.

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Gamaliel
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You are assuming, Gramps49, that we want the US back. We've got enough problems of our own without taking on another 300 million ...

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Gee D
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Our Federal Parliamentarians are going through a difficult period, with more and more of them shown as retaining citizenship of another country. That's a factor disqualifying them from standing for either house of Federal Parliament. Quire a few of those now shown to be disqualified were born in Aust to parents who had taken Aust citizenship but not renounced that which they previously had - the oath does not include that.

This has worked to the disadvantage of the present government. The Labor Party office carries out rather more detailed checks than do the other parties, and that's where most of the problems have arisen.

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Golden Key
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When the von Trapp family (yes, that one) became Americans, they had to drop the "von", which is a noble title.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You are assuming, Gramps49, that we want the US back. We've got enough problems of our own without taking on another 300 million ...

Oh, but in the musical "Hamilton", King George III sings to the US "You'll...be...BACK! You'll see. You'll remember you belong to me".
[Biased]

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't know how that works out in practice, because lots of immigrants seem to retain a strong connection to their old country. But it may primarily mean what your allegiance would be in wartime.

Probably. It certainly doesn't preclude dual citizenship, which has been explicitly allowed for a small number of decades.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
But, technically, American citizenship is by birthright based on the parent's citizenship regardless of where they were born. Mitt Romney's father, George Romney, ran for the Presidency but he was born in Mexico. Still, he was able to run because his parents were American citizens.

I could never figure that one out.

But President Obama was investigated over and over and over because of his Kenyan father -- despite the fact that he was born in the United States and his mother was a native-born American.

Simples. Romney was white and Obama is black.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Prince Harry's kids will be American citizens by virtue of their mother's citizenship. Just think, what if one of their kids becomes the President of the United States while in line for the throne?

You Brits are always playing long. It could be a way of bringing us Yanks back into the fold.

As this can only happen with campaign reform, it’s an exciting prospect.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Pardon a loaded cross-Pond question, but how much of an issue is their future kids' mixed ethnic heritage apt to be? (And no, I don't mean American.) If, someday, they were close in line to the throne, would it be a problem then?

I'd say almost a complete non-issue, for multiple reasons:

1. The chance of Harry's kids being closer to the throne than "the King's cousin" is basically zero. It might get a Hurrumph in certain quarters, but only from the sort of person who has already hurrumphed about the names of Mark Phillips's daughters.

2. Ms. Markle is an attractive successful actress. That mostly trumps her complexion.

3. She's not that black. She doesn't style her hair in a "black" style. There's not much there to frighten the horses.

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Fuzzipeg
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Queen Charlotte of Mecklenburg Strelitz, the wife of George III, was considered by many to be a mulatto because of her dark complexion and general appearance...it may or may not be true but her appearance was used to promote the anti slave trade movement..
Similarly Philippa of Hainault, the wife of Edward lll, was Portuguese and described as 'brown all over" and rumoured to have "Moorish blood". Philippa was very successful in keeping the king's Plantagenet temper in check and saved a a number of people from execution, including the Burgers of Calais.

What's the problem?

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Golden Key
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Fuzzipeg--

As I said in my last paragraph, the British royal line has been very white, AFAIK. I have no problem with Meghan or her future children. I'm just not sure what the view is in Britain.

Thanks for the info, though. [Smile]

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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Fuzzipeg--

As I said in my last paragraph, the British royal line has been very white, AFAIK. I have no problem with Meghan or her future children. I'm just not sure what the view is in Britain.

Thanks for the info, though. [Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You are assuming, Gramps49, that we want the US back. We've got enough problems of our own without taking on another 300 million ...

Although it does currently have the honour of being the ony country more incompetently governed than our own. Just.

Golden Key - I think your question is perfectly reasonable, and the Spectator has been quoted a lot in social media for trying to find reasons why she is not suitable - comparing her to Wallace Simpson. Because they can't in fact say "We don't want a black person marrying into OUR royal family."

And yes, there will be a lot of people trying to disown Harry, because they are racist shits who hate anyone who doesn't live in cosy Middle England. But tough. They will justify it as being permissible because he is not in direct line to the throne (he and his family are unlikely ever to be monarchs).

Tough.

There is an interesting possibilty that this blood line may, in future generations, cross again with the Monarch, and introduce this into the Royal family again. Her children will be princes and princesses, and so highly eligible for marriage, and their children will have the royal blood, so would always be considered a good match for future generations.

As long as they don't look too like the staff.

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mr cheesy
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I'm not entirely sure about this, so I'm preparing to be proven wrong - and don't really care very much anyway.

I think that technically the British royals are also nationals of various other nations and dominions and thus could get passports for various other countries should they wish to. The Queen herself has no passport but the other Royals travel on British passports.

But I don't think there is any particular reason why the younger Windsors couldn't (for example) move to live in Canada and travel around on Canadian passports.

I don't know that this situation is precisely the same for every country that counts HM as Queen - but I'm reasonably sure that Canada at least officially has them as the "Canadian" Royal family.

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L'organist
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1. Ms Markle has stated her intention of becoming a UK citizen.

2. My understanding is that the US doesn't look kindly on its citizens taking out citizenship of another country, to the extent that the State Department views anyone who does as losing their US citizenship.

3. QED any offspring of Ms Markle and Prince Harry will be UK citizens.

As for the nationality of the current royals: certainly Prince Philip is a UK citizen - definitely not Greek since the then Greek government stripped his family of its citizenship at the time he was exiled from Corfu as an infant.

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Her children will be princes and princesses...

Will they? I thought I had heard that things had changed, and only the heir apparent and his offspring are entitled to be called prince or princess, unless a special exception is made. I think a special exception gave Prince William's children titles.

Moo

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
. My understanding is that the US doesn't look kindly on its citizens taking out citizenship of another country, to the extent that the State Department views anyone who does as losing their US citizenship.

If an American takes out citizenship in another country, they lose their US citizenship, but if they're born with multiple citizenship, they can keep it.

My older daughter was born in Belfast, NI, and she can claim citizenship in three countries, the US, the UK, and the Irish Republic. She can claim US citizenship through her parents; she can claim UK citizenship because she was born in the UK; she can claim Irish citizenship because the Irish Republic says that anyone born anywhere in Ireland is a citizen of the Republic.

Moo

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
If an American takes out citizenship in another country, they lose their US citizenship, but if they're born with multiple citizenship, they can keep it. ...

If only.

quote:
In 1990, the U.S. State Department adopted new regulations which presume that an individual does not intend to give up citizenship when performing one of the above potentially expatriating acts.[58] If asked, the individual can always answer that they did not intend to give it up; this is sufficient to retain their citizenship.[59] Hence, the U.S. effectively allows citizens to acquire new citizenships while remaining a U.S. citizen, becoming a dual citizen.
Dual Citizenship

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Sipech
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
There is an interesting possibilty that this blood line may, in future generations, cross again with the Monarch, and introduce this into the Royal family again. Her children will be princes and princesses, and so highly eligible for marriage, and their children will have the royal blood, so would always be considered a good match for future generations.

Well, there is a corollary to long-standing hypothesis which says that any children Harry and Meghan may have wouldn't have any royal blood anyway...

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Her children will be princes and princesses...

Will they? I thought I had heard that things had changed, and only the heir apparent and his offspring are entitled to be called prince or princess, unless a special exception is made. I think a special exception gave Prince William's children titles.

Moo

Presuming that Charles succeeds (which I suspect will be some years away), then the non-princely children will become grandchildren of a sovereign, therefore automatically princes & princesses (all according to George V's warrant). However, the Queen can just make them princely if she feels like it. As the royal corgis are said to quite like Ms Markle, I think that we can safely assume that this will be likely.
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Bishops Finger
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Gosh - Markle The Sparkle might one day, in future generations, be responsible for giving Ukland a BLACK King or Queen...

[Big Grin]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Gosh - Markle The Sparkle might one day, in future generations, be responsible for giving Ukland a BLACK King or Queen...

[Big Grin]

IJ

If one goes by the one-drop rule, we already have a black monarch in situ. Queen Charlotte (wife of George III) was descended from Maura Gil, a Moroccan, as well as a descendant of Ines Hernandez Estevez, daughter of a converted Moorish shoemaker and mistress of King Joao I of Portugal (1357-1433, husband of Philippa of Lancaster), and through that union ancestress of the Braganza family.

There is also a Berber line through an Emir of Cadiz and the Almoravids but my insomnia has not facilitated my ability to wade through the 10 centuries involved.

But perhaps more importantly in symbolic terms, Ms Markle brings into the House of Windsor the blood of the descendants of slaves, which is perhaps more relevant to modern consciousness than the informality of mediaeval Iberian family life.

[ 29. November 2017, 14:13: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]

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Bishops Finger
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Augustine the Aleut says:
quote:
Ms Markle brings into the House of Windsor the blood of the descendants of slaves.
Probably a good reason for The Grabber-in-Chief to refuse an invitation to the wedding (should he receive one). The lady is (pale) BLACK, and therefore, presumably, persona non grata to the racist bastard in the WHITE House... [Disappointed]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Technically, US citizens can't hold noble titles, but I haven't heard of anyone arrested for it. Hell, one of the Real Housewives of New York, Luann de Lesseps, was married to a count and proudly bore the title countess all over the place. And she didn't have to duck when the police drove by, either.

Not quite true. The United States government and the governments of the individual states are forbidden from granting a "Title of Nobility" to anyone, and "no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust" within the U.S. government can accept a title "without the Consent of the Congress". If you're an ordinary American citizen (i.e. not someone "holding [an] Office of Profit or Trust") there's no prohibition against accepting a foreign title of nobility.

Those who become American citizens through the naturalization process are typically required to give up connections to the country of their former allegiance (including titles of nobility), but that's a different question as to whether citizens can accept such titles later.

[ 29. November 2017, 14:40: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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HCH
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This brings to mind the unique instance of Winston Churchill, who was knighted in 1953 and made an honorary US citizen in 1963.
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Golden Key
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# 1468

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HCH--

I happened to be wondering about his citizenship last night. He didn't get citizenship from his American mother?

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
HCH--

I happened to be wondering about his citizenship last night. He didn't get citizenship from his American mother?

In those days, one didn't. Before 1934, children born outside the US could not inherit citizenship through one's (US citizen) mother. There was no retroactive effect.
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Gramps49
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# 16378

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I did a cursory review of Jennie Churchill's biography and could not find anywhere where she gave up her American citizenship She was known to talk the title of Lady Rudolph Churchhill after her marriage so that might have been the point where she lost her citizenship.

Someone up thread mentioned the Von Tropps had to give up the "Von" title when they became Americans. I don't think that is the case. I know of a number of families who kept the title. I grew up with a Von Weller. I also know of a number of Irish and Scottish American families who kept the "O'" designation.

Also, someone mentioned that Lady Meghan wears her hair straight, therefore, she is not that black. May I remind you Michelle Obama and her daughters also wear their hair straight. Tell them they are not that black. In the United States, common law simply says if you have one drop of African blood in you you are black. A lot of White Nationalists have discovered, to their chagrin, they are black.

[ 30. November 2017, 01:41: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Gramps--

Re "von":

I was the one who posted it. I thought Maria mentioned it in one of her books. I may be wrong.

I'm poking around online. If I find something, will post it.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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simontoad
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# 18096

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I wouldn't worry about Markle's ethnicity. There have been nasty rumors about Harry's parentage all his life.

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Human

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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AA--

Thanks for the info! [Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Gramps--

Re "von":

I was the one who posted it. I thought Maria mentioned it in one of her books. I may be wrong.

I'm poking around online. If I find something, will post it.

Ok, I looked around. I may have gotten confused from their frequent use of "Trapp Family" when performing in the US. I didn't find anything that said what they did at their citizenship ceremony.

But at the site for the US Custom & Immigration Service, in the "Oath Of Allegiance" section, I found:

quote:
C. Renunciation of Title or Order of Nobility

Any applicant who has any titles of heredity or positions of nobility in any foreign state must renounce the title or the position. The applicant must expressly renounce the title in a public ceremony and USCIS must record the renunciation as part of the proceedings. [5] Failure to renounce the title of position shows a lack of attachment to the Constitution.

In order to renounce a title or position, the applicant must add one of the following phrases to the Oath of Allegiance:

•I further renounce the title of (give title or titles) which I have heretofore held; or


•I further renounce the order of nobility (give the order of nobility) to which I have heretofore belonged. [6]

An applicant whose country of former nationality or origin abolished the title by law, or who no longer possesses a title, is not required to drop that portion of his or her name that originally designated such title as a part of his or her naturalization. [7]

I'm not quite sure whether the last paragraph means that, once you've formally relinquished the title, you can keep the name; or if you somehow lost/sold your title in your homeland, you can keep it in your name as an American citizen.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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The 'O' in 'O'Reilly' and so on isn't a nobility thing, it's simply a clan or patronymic designation similar to the Scottish 'Mac' or 'Mc'.

The Welsh equivalent is 'ap' or 'ab' meaning son of ...

As in 'Powell- from ap Hywel, or 'Bowen' from ab Owen.

I don't know much about 'Von' but get the impression it's more of a nobility thing, but would be very surprised if the Von Trapps dropped it in the US, as a stage name at least.

'Ladies and gentlemen ... the Trapp Family!' doesn't have the same ring.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm not quite sure whether the last paragraph means that, once you've formally relinquished the title, you can keep the name; or if you somehow lost/sold your title in your homeland, you can keep it in your name as an American citizen.

"von" and "zu" in Germany used to be regulated by law: their use was restricted to the minor nobility, and as such they were aristocratic titles.

With the advent of the Weimar republic in 1919, the legal status of the aristocracy was abolished, and the "von" and "zu" particles simply became part of people's surnames.

So pre-1919, being called "von Trapp" was a noble title, and so you would be expected to become Mr. Trapp in the US. Post-1919, being called "von Trapp" had no special legal status, and so you could keep it as your name.

[ 30. November 2017, 13:04: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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wild haggis
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# 15555

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This is a daft discussion.

a) Prince Harry's fiancee is applying for British nationality.Will she give up her American right or have dual nationality. We don't know yet.

2) It is highly unlikely that their kids, should they want some, will ever be King/Queen.

3) Their kids will be British.

4) In the light of Trump's Tweets, do you think they will want to live in the States.

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Moo

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# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
So pre-1919, being called "von Trapp" was a noble title, and so you would be expected to become Mr. Trapp in the US. Post-1919, being called "von Trapp" had no special legal status, and so you could keep it as your name.

When I lived in Germany in the 1950s, I got the impression that people were not free to add 'von' to their name if they could not prove they were entitled to it.

Moo

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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wild haggis says:
quote:
This is a daft discussion.
Indeed, but it takes our minds off the ghastliness of Other News e.g. The Crawling Chaos 'in charge' of Great America, and his hateful malevolence... [Mad]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Enoch
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# 14322

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Tangent alert
Weren't the Von Trapps Austro-Hungarians, not Germans?

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
This is a daft discussion.

Yes. And?

quote:

3) Their kids will be British.

This is undeniably true. If Ms. Markle doesn't abandon her US citizenship, they'll also be American.

quote:
4) In the light of Trump's Tweets, do you think they will want to live in the States.
By the time any of their children are making decisions about where they should live, Trump and his tweets will be nothing more than a embarrassing chapter in the history books.
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Jengie jon

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# 273

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I don't know much about 'Von' but get the impression it's more of a nobility thing, but would be very surprised if the Von Trapps dropped it in the US, as a stage name at least.

It does have nobility as I known South African acquaintances* who dropped it in South Africa because it had no relevance there. They told stories of how some German individuals changed their attitude towards them once they discovered they were actually 'Von'.

Jengie

*Just checked the spelling of their name and found that the one I knew best is quite famous. [Hot and Hormonal]

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Tangent alert
Weren't the Von Trapps Austro-Hungarians, not Germans?

Yes. And Austrian law was a little different - the aristocracy was stripped of their territorial particles, so in 1919, Ritter von Trapp became plain Georg Trapp within Austria.

Outside Austria, he preferred to keep his von.

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