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Source: (consider it) Thread: Prince Harry's kids
cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
But, technically, American citizenship is by birthright based on the parent's citizenship regardless of where they were born. Mitt Romney's father, George Romney, ran for the Presidency but he was born in Mexico. Still, he was able to run because his parents were American citizens.

I could never figure that one out.

But President Obama was investigated over and over and over because of his Kenyan father -- despite the fact that he was born in the United States and his mother was a native-born American.

Yes. The clincher here is that there is a clause in the constitution that says the President must not just be a "citizen" but must be a "native-born" citizen. The definition of that has not been parsed out. Most think it means you have to be born on American soil-- hence the "birther" movement's attempt to show Obama being born in Kenya. But there are others who have suggested it simply means you have to be a citizen from birth (i.e. even if Obama were born in Kenya he would be a citizen from birth due to his mother's citizenship-- as would Harry's kids if mom doesn't relinquish citizenship). If/when it comes up it may end up being decided by the Supreme Court. And every now and then, when it's convenient for one party or the other, suggestions will be made of a constitutional amendment to remove the problematic phrase altogether so naturalized citizens can run.

Beyond that "American soil" also has delicate parsing. McCain was born in Panama, but on an American military base, so it was said that qualified.

All of these issues were raised during George Romney's campaign but he exited the race before they could be resolved.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Beyond that "American soil" also has delicate parsing. McCain was born in Panama, but on an American military base, so it was said that qualified.

Ah, that's easy. HRH will just need to run to the US embassy when she's in Labour... [Two face]


OK, before some pedant comes along I know that isn't actually US soil so maybe the JFK memorial in Great Windsor Park... The tabloids would love that...
[Biased]

AFZ

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[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Beyond that "American soil" also has delicate parsing. McCain was born in Panama, but on an American military base, so it was said that qualified.

Ah, that's easy. HRH will just need to run to the US embassy when she's in Labour... [Two face]


OK, before some pedant comes along I know that isn't actually US soil so maybe the JFK memorial in Great Windsor Park... The tabloids would love that...
[Biased]

AFZ

I think the embassy would work as long as she takes care not to say she's in "labour" but rather make clear that she is in "labor".

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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betjemaniac
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# 17618

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Beyond that "American soil" also has delicate parsing. McCain was born in Panama, but on an American military base, so it was said that qualified.

Ah, that's easy. HRH will just need to run to the US embassy when she's in Labour... [Two face]


OK, before some pedant comes along I know that isn't actually US soil so maybe the JFK memorial in Great Windsor Park... The tabloids would love that...
[Biased]

AFZ

I think the embassy would work as long as she takes care not to say she's in "labour" but rather make clear that she is in "labor".
and not, indeed, in Labour....

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Jengie jon

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The kid just needs to arrive at one of these.

One of the advantages of being fairly close to the Peace movement is that you pick up odd quirks like this.

Jengie

[ 30. November 2017, 16:44: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes. The clincher here is that there is a clause in the constitution that says the President must not just be a "citizen" but must be a "native-born" citizen. The definition of that has not been parsed out. Most think it means you have to be born on American soil-- hence the "birther" movement's attempt to show Obama being born in Kenya. ...

Yes. This is something that from over here has always been a bit puzzling. Unless there's something I've completely misunderstood, it's quite clear that he was born on Hawaii. It's even fairly easy to find photographs of his birth certificate on the web which says exactly that. And unless everything I've been taught about geography is rubbish, Hawaii is part of the USA.

Or have I missed something?

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yes. This is something that from over here has always been a bit puzzling. Unless there's something I've completely misunderstood, it's quite clear that he was born on Hawaii. It's even fairly easy to find photographs of his birth certificate on the web which says exactly that. And unless everything I've been taught about geography is rubbish, Hawaii is part of the USA.

Or have I missed something?

You think you've seen actual photographs of the birth certificate, but our beloved(?) ex-Sheriff, Joe Arpaio, has "proof" that they're forgeries!


[Roll Eyes]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Moo

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# 107

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During World War 2, Princess Juliana of the Netherlands lived in Canada. When she became pregnant, the Canadian parliament passed a law saying that wherever she was when she gave birth, that place, at that particular time, was Dutch.

Moo

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
You think you've seen actual photographs of the birth certificate, but our beloved(?) ex-Sheriff, Joe Arpaio, has "proof" that they're forgeries!

He may do, but does anybody who has any credibility agree with him?

And as a tangent, is it lawful public expenditure for a county in a totally different state, not Hawaii, to be commissioning, hiring allegedly expensive forensic experts in a different continent and presumably dedicating its own police resources over five years, to this investigation?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
During World War 2, Princess Juliana of the Netherlands lived in Canada. When she became pregnant, the Canadian parliament passed a law saying that wherever she was when she gave birth, that place, at that particular time, was Dutch.

I've heard that there was a suite in one of the big London hotels that was made temporarily part of Serbia at some time for the same reason.

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
You think you've seen actual photographs of the birth certificate, but our beloved(?) ex-Sheriff, Joe Arpaio, has "proof" that they're forgeries!

He may do, but does anybody who has any credibility agree with him?

And as a tangent, is it lawful public expenditure for a county in a totally different state, not Hawaii, to be commissioning, hiring allegedly expensive forensic experts in a different continent and presumably dedicating its own police resources over five years, to this investigation?

When Joe was Sheriff (many long years!) he could do whatever he wanted to and spend all the money he wanted to. One good thing happened on Election Day 2016 -- he finally lost his re-election bid. (Obviously a good pal of Trump, who pardoned him for his conviction for criminal contempt of court.)

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
You think you've seen actual photographs of the birth certificate, but our beloved(?) ex-Sheriff, Joe Arpaio, has "proof" that they're forgeries!

He may do, but does anybody who has any credibility agree with him?
Unfortunately there was a whole yoo-hoo-load of nazi sympathizers and other sycophants who thought that God spoke through his mouth. I don't know if that's true now that (thank God) he's no longer in office, but it may be.

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
During World War 2, Princess Juliana of the Netherlands lived in Canada. When she became pregnant, the Canadian parliament passed a law saying that wherever she was when she gave birth, that place, at that particular time, was Dutch.

I've heard that there was a suite in one of the big London hotels that was made temporarily part of Serbia at some time for the same reason.
*constitutional geek alert*
It was by Order in Council (formal decision of cabinet, and therby possibly legislation by prerogative), and the hospital where she delivered was declared to be extra-territorial for the day in question, allowing anybody who wished to think so (the Dutch government in exile, in this case) to believe that it was not Canada, and quite possibly somewhere else (the Netherlands, in this case).

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Enoch--

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes. The clincher here is that there is a clause in the constitution that says the President must not just be a "citizen" but must be a "native-born" citizen. The definition of that has not been parsed out. Most think it means you have to be born on American soil-- hence the "birther" movement's attempt to show Obama being born in Kenya. ...

Yes. This is something that from over here has always been a bit puzzling. Unless there's something I've completely misunderstood, it's quite clear that he was born on Hawaii. It's even fairly easy to find photographs of his birth certificate on the web which says exactly that. And unless everything I've been taught about geography is rubbish, Hawaii is part of the USA.

Or have I missed something?

It's puzzling here, too. Basically, it was political; plus racist (conscious and otherwise); and people overwhelmed by a sense of his difference, and their being willing to accept just about any explanation, in order to make their world feel normal again.

There was a lot of fuss about the short form of his birth certificate vs. the long form. IIRC, he'd provided the short form. But Hawai'i doesn't normally provide the long form. IIRC, they finally did.

IIRC, Hawai'i hadn't been a state all that long (1959, IIRC), when he was born there. And it's far away from the mainland, and seems rather exotic.

It didn't help that a Kenyan relative remarked that he *was* born there--a way of claiming him as their own, and being proud of him.

Then there was claiming he's a Muslim. He never has been. His father was; and, I think, Islam considers the son of a Muslim man to also be Muslim. Sen. John McCain, a Republican (the other party), shut that idea down when a woman asserted it at a town hall meeting. I suspect some people still believe, and think there's a cover-up.

T still occasionally tries to push the birther nonsense.

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Callan
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# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Augustine the Aleut says:
quote:
Ms Markle brings into the House of Windsor the blood of the descendants of slaves.
Probably a good reason for The Grabber-in-Chief to refuse an invitation to the wedding (should he receive one). The lady is (pale) BLACK, and therefore, presumably, persona non grata to the racist bastard in the WHITE House... [Disappointed]

IJ

I think the only people who want to see Trump at the wedding are Trump himself and the editor of the Daily Mail. The security implications are going to be a complete 'mare. So I suspect that it will be as low key and informal as it will be possible for these occasions to be. If Harry really wants to troll the orange man child, he will doubtless see to it that Mr Trump is not on the guest list and his friend Mr Obama is.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Penny S
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# 14768

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What's all this "blood" thing. It is meaningless. It's the chromosomes that matter. And, with only 46 to play with, once you get back past six generations, the chances of inheriting one from any particular ancestor are decreasingly small. (And yes, there may have been swapping going on between them, but even so, small.) Though with royals, the chances of having picked up inheritance from any particular ancestor are higher than for us plebs, I wouldn't put too much weight on Charlotte or Philippa.
And, as for "slave blood", what weight should be placed on that idea? No-one chose slavery. Any taint should belong with the enslavers.

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Enoch
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We are all, without exception, descended from African hunter gatherers.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Jane R
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And the Roman Empire enslaved most of the population of Britain, so we are probably all descended from slaves if you go back far enough.
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Gamaliel
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I'm not sure that's strictly true, Jane R. There were loads of slaves across the entire Roman Empire, of course, but most of the population of Britain would have continued as small-farmers during the Roman occupation.

The population in the towns would have been a mixture of native British and people from all over the Empire, including retired soldiers (Roman citizenship was part of the deal) as well as administrators, officials and what-have-you.

Julius Caesar certainly enslaved thousands of Gauls but the impression I get of the Roman invasion and occupation here was that the process was more gradual and although there was stiff resistance initially - and subsequently from the Ordivices and Silures and most famously, of course, in Boudicca's revolt - by and large it was a gradual process of Romanisation. Indeed, in the south-east of England that had already begun to a certain extent before the invasion itself.

That's not to say the Romans were all sweetness and light, of course they weren't.

But it's clear from records found on Hadrian's Wall that they used to pay British contractors for labour and supplies etc.

Slaves weren't purely a Roman thing either. There were plenty of slaves in Anglo-Saxon England for instance.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Gamaliel
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Besides, those of us who are descended from Anglo-Saxons, Norsemen and Norman-French are descended from people who arrived here after the end of Roman rule anyway.

Most of us are a mix of Romano-British and Saxon and Scandinavian with the upper-crust descended from Norman knights.

Recent DNA research shows a lot of original 'ancient British' blood, even in those areas of England traditionally seen as predominantly Anglo-Saxon.

It's all a bit of a mix.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Horseman Bree
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Referring to Enoch's question about the birther movement,and the subsequent Kenyan birth claim, I also recall that, after Obama's first Presidential win, there was a burst of musical excitement in Ireland, about how "there's no-one as Irish as Barack O'bama".

And in relation to the OP, you're a bit late. The theory of Yank influence on the Brits trying to "make America Great Britain again" was blogged here.

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It's Not That Simple

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... Most of us are a mix of Romano-British and Saxon and Scandinavian with the upper-crust descended from Norman knights. ....

I agree on the rest but I suspect the genetic influence of the Normans is negligible. There weren't very many of them. They were half Scandinavian anyway. And there's hardly anyone left who can trace descent from them in the male line, yet alone all the mothers, maternal relatives etc anyone will have by now. Besides, the oldest extant noble families are largely descended from new men of the late middle ages or the Tudor period.

Even the royal family were only half Norman once you get past Henry I. He made a point of marrying a daughter of the King of Scotland who was herself claimant to the Anglo-Saxon throne that had preceded the conquest.

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Curiosity killed ...

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Probably not noble families no, because they were enobled in different reigns as suggested, but one of my paternal grandparent's ancestors are documented in Domesday (as an existing Saxon family, living in a Saxon house that still exists) and the other paternal grandparent is documented to farming stock in a localised identified area from fairly early on. Land owning families, even in a small way, are easier to trace back a long way.

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Penny S
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Thought on Norman inheritance. Some cling to this still.

We used to notice that when the families that appointed the rectors turned up in church, they were physically different from us peasants. Taller - more Norse looking (with Norman short hair). That they sat in front of us made this very noticeable. Mum used to characterise them as Normans.

I was taught by someone who claimed to be descended from William de Warrene, one of the Conqueror's close supporters. For a long time I doubted this, thinking she was as likely to be descended from a rabbit keeper, but it turned out she did have an ancestry that made it possible. After she told us this, I went home and told the family, to which my Dad replied that I should tell her her people stole our land. Which I did, and to her credit, she didn't take it badly!

My sister was at school with a de Sautoy, who became an actress, and subsequently met the mathematician Marcus of that ilk. She asked him if they were related, and he responded that shortly after the family arrived at Pevensey, there was a family row, and the two branches had had nothing to do with each other since the 11th century.

I currently have in my house someone who claims descent from on of the Conqueror's gang, and the sense of entitlement endures.

[ 02. December 2017, 10:31: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
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Harry started out as 3rd in line. He is currently fifth and will soon slip to 6th with the birth of Catherine's third sprog.

Princess Margaret was 3rd as well. Who knows or cares about her children or grandchildren? Prince Henry of Gloucester was the next male heir to the Queen's father. Who knows anything of his children and grandchildren beside genealogical freaks? And we won't even think of the Kents and their spawn. Or the Lascelles. Or even the current Princess Royal's heirs and descendants who trail after the lineages of her three brothers.

I suppose someone keeps track. Never know when North Korean missiles will rain down on the Home Counties and the current royal family is exterminated.

But really, after you slip past 12th in line, the whole thing is just fantasy.

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Even more so than I was before

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Although it does currently have the honour of being the ony country more incompetently governed than our own. Just.

You think?
quote:

As long as they don't look too like the staff.

Or too ginger?

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blog

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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I have been told that a disproportionate number of Britons who are top in wealth or noble rank have Norman names.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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O, to blazes with all these foreign usurpers! As a good Scot, I still yearn, sigh, peak, and pine for the restoration of HM King Francis II.

Yes, I know - that link is a few years old...

[Two face]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
O, to blazes with all these foreign usurpers! As a good Scot, I still yearn, sigh, peak, and pine for the restoration of HM King Francis II.

Yes, I know - that link is a few years old...

How many members does the Royal Stuart Society have? Enough to field a cricket team?

Repealing the Act of Settlement 1701 probably would not have even the theoretical effect envisaged by the article in the Telegraph. As far as I know, this has never been tested, but if succession to the Crown follows the rules applicable to succession to landed property before the C19 and C20 reforms, descent is traced not from some ancient ancestor but from the person last seised.

Since the person presently seised is undoubtedly Elizabeth II, if the Act were to be repealed in her lifetime, on her death, descent would be traced from her, including only those descended from the 'first purchaser', but this time without the exclusion of those currently excluded for Popery. If it were repealed during the reign of Charles III, descent would be traced from him on the same basis.

Who 'the first purchaser' would be in this situation, who knows? Possibly Cerdic, possibly William I, possibly Henry VII, possibly, James I and VI, possibly George I. But there are enough people descended from those more recently seised for this to be unlikely to be relevant.

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Bishops Finger
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[Killing me]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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On the assumption of two breeding children per generation, three and a half generations a century, and no inbreeding, everyone in Britain was descended from William the Conqueror and all his cronies by about 1800. Obviously the inbreeding was something chronic, but there were more than two children per generation so it wouldn't have taken more than a couple more generations.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
O, to blazes with all these foreign usurpers! As a good Scot, I still yearn, sigh, peak, and pine for the restoration of HM King Francis II.

Yes, I know - that link is a few years old...

[Two face]

IJ

The table of descent reminds me that Anne Hyde was the last woman born a commoner to become mother of a queen regnant - she was mother of 2 queens regnant in fact.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Gee D
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Thinking about it a bit while engaged on some of the D domestic life. What I said was on one hand far too general and should have been limited to England and the UK. On the other hand, it was too limited and should have said any person who became monarch of England or the UK. I nearly said married to a monarch as well, but IIRC, the Queen Mother's mother was born a Cavendish-Bentinck, but a commoner.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Oh for a like and a haha button.

[Yipee] [Paranoid]

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Human

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Eirenist
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# 13343

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Tangential thought: One trusts that, in the event of Mr Trump's deferred visit to the UK going ahead, the entire remaining military might of the country will be deployed to keep the President away from Ms Merkle. But will that be enough?

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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Ms. Markle, if you please.

Rhymes with sparkle.

I'll see myself out, and will close the door with me on the other side of it.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Thinking about it a bit while engaged on some of the D domestic life. What I said was on one hand far too general and should have been limited to England and the UK. On the other hand, it was too limited and should have said any person who became monarch of England or the UK. I nearly said married to a monarch as well, but IIRC, the Queen Mother's mother was born a Cavendish-Bentinck, but a commoner.

Only those who have had a week-long flu in a house full of royal biographies would be aware of the consternation in ruling houses across Europe when the then Duke of York (later George V) married Princess Mary of Teck as she was but a Serene Highness. Queen Victoria didn't mind, however, so that ended the discussion. While there was also disapproval of the marriage 30 years later of a mere earl's daughter -- a commoner-- to a later Duke of York (who became George VI), post-war dispossessed ruling houses had much less influence in such matters.

By the tenor of the comments of the 1890s, one gets the impression that a marriage to Ms Markle would have been as incredible to the writers as would have been a marriage to a mere Serene Highness.

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Gee D
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Thanks - I was not aware of any real consternation. She had of course been engaged previously to George's older brother who died suddenly and unexpectedly, so I assume that the same occurred then as well.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
During World War 2, Princess Juliana of the Netherlands lived in Canada. When she became pregnant, the Canadian parliament passed a law saying that wherever she was when she gave birth, that place, at that particular time, was Dutch.

I've heard that there was a suite in one of the big London hotels that was made temporarily part of Serbia at some time for the same reason.
*constitutional geek alert*
It was by Order in Council (formal decision of cabinet, and therby possibly legislation by prerogative), and the hospital where she delivered was declared to be extra-territorial for the day in question, allowing anybody who wished to think so (the Dutch government in exile, in this case) to believe that it was not Canada, and quite possibly somewhere else (the Netherlands, in this case).

I am such a geek.

It was the maternity suite at the Ottawa Civic Hospital, not the entire hospital, so it only affected Princess Juliana and the medical staff attending her in practice. No other patients were affected. The rest of the hospital was still part of Canada and its province of Ontario.

The registrar might have been a bit at a loss as to whether to issue a birth certificate or not.

The whole thing hinged on the fact that the Netherlands practices citizenship by descent, not citizenship by birth in a territory as Canada does.

The entire affair was probably written off under the heading of "War Powers" and "Foreign Affairs", both Crown prerogatives. Or better yet, "Too Silly to Care." (from Ontario's point of view).

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NDP Federal Convention, Edmonton 2016: More Trots than the Calgary Stampede!

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Gramps49
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# 16378

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cliffdweller:

quote:
Yes. The clincher here is that there is a clause in the constitution that says the President must not just be a "citizen" but must be a "native-born" citizen.
No clincher here, cliffdweller. The term in the US Constitution is "Natural Born." True, it is not clearly defined in the constitution, but case law defines natural born as anyone born either on American soil OR born to a U.S. citizen regardless of where they reside.

Ted Cruz was born in Calgary Canada to an American mother and a Cuban father. By virtue of his American mother's citizenship, he is considered a Natural Born American citizen. There was no question of his right to stand for the presidency. But, then, he passes for being more white than Hispanic.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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There was a move to ditch the "natural-born" clause, specifically so that Arnold Swarzenegger could be president. (This was either when he was governor of California, or just after.)

Fortunately, it didn't get very far. I actually think the natural-born clause is a good thing, putting aside the difficulties in figuring it out. It gives immigrants a chance to acclimate, learn the language, etc. IIRC, the original concern was to keep nobles and such from coming over here, becoming president, and taking over the country on behalf of their true country.

There are downsides. Madeleine Albright couldn't be president, and I think she would've been awesome.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
cliffdweller:

quote:
Yes. The clincher here is that there is a clause in the constitution that says the President must not just be a "citizen" but must be a "native-born" citizen.
No clincher here, cliffdweller. The term in the US Constitution is "Natural Born." True, it is not clearly defined in the constitution, but case law defines natural born as anyone born either on American soil OR born to a U.S. citizen regardless of where they reside.

Ted Cruz was born in Calgary Canada to an American mother and a Cuban father. By virtue of his American mother's citizenship, he is considered a Natural Born American citizen. There was no question of his right to stand for the presidency. But, then, he passes for being more white than Hispanic.

hmmm... a quick google search confirms you are correct. And yet... the birther movement. And Cruz' citizenship WAS brought up and questioned, if only briefly, with the promise that (much like with George Romney noted above) "we'll look it into it" if he got the nod. So, at least in the popular mind, it's enough of an open question to be exploited by political opponents-- even then there's nothing there.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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