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Source: (consider it) Thread: Do we pressure men into sexual misconduct?
Gwai
Host
# 11076

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Honestly, I find it amazing that people think one should not be fired for sexually harassing colleagues. If it was just one comment to one woman, one might say it was an accident. But multiple women feeling harassed? Sounds like a great idea to fire the guy.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Me too. Inappropriate behavior and comments? You got no excuse any more.
If you care to use one of your NY Times clicks, here is an excellent article explaining how it is too soon for men to get any 'redemption'.

[ 02. December 2017, 20:38: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:


I am currently thinking about the women at church and elsewhere whom I routinely kiss.

They are all around my age, we have known each other for a long time, and they always volunteer their cheek to be kissed (as does my wife to their husbands) when we meet.

How long that will be wise or appropriate in the current climate remains to be seen.

I have dithered about posting this, but here goes...

I might be a bit over the top with this, but I think it might be an idea to ask the women involved. I think with the raising of awareness of what is and isn't appropriate may lead some women to be aware that they don't feel completely comfortable with cheek kissing, but the fact that it has been the usual ritual of greeting makes it difficult to say so.

I realise this isn't a parallel situation, but my best friend, a gay man whom I have known almost 30 years, ( we spend Christmas together and have stayed in each other's houses) met some new friends who were more exuberant, and started greeting me with a kiss. I know it wasn't sexual, but I felt really uncomfortable with it. It took me several took several meetings before I could screw up the courage to tell him.

Also I have left a church where the Vicar was a huggy person. I made an appointment to see him and explained that I found touch difficult, (it was not long after I had been raped, which he knew) and asked him not to, but he ignored my request, so I left. I don't think his touch was sexual either, but his continuing to ignore my request still felt like harassment.

I suppose this could be written off as me being a delicate wee flower, but there will be other women out there who have had similar experiences.

Huia

--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:

I suppose this could be written off as me being a delicate wee flower, but there will be other women out there who have had similar experiences.

Huia

Doesn't matter if you are delicate. Not only do you have reason to be, no one should be expected to be OK with being touched if they do not care for it.
I am one for whom touch is very important. However, due to my experiences, I am also wary of being touched. The onus is ever on the toucher, not the person they would touch.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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quote:
I think with the raising of awareness of what is and isn't appropriate may lead some women to be aware that they don't feel completely comfortable with cheek kissing, but the fact that it has been the usual ritual of greeting makes it difficult to say so.
English men of my age and class found the recent-ish fashion for kissing women on both cheeks continental-style (or were we meant to hit the air?) on greeting them, affected and a bit pretentious. Or was that just me? [Smile]

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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It's terrifying. Much happier shaking hands, even better with just a nod of acknowledgement and a swift, 'alright?'

Keep your mwah-mwahs to yourselves, you strange people.

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Forward the New Republic

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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Yeah, it's flu season.
s

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Should we be rethinking the demands and expectations our societies place on men?

I don't agree with much of this Slate article, but I think it may deal with a subject similar to the one you are trying to bring up. I didn't have the same reaction to the NYT piece cited as the author did. In a world in which words are seriously described as "violence," I'm not sure it's inaccurate to describe some aspects of sexuality and libido as brutal (direct and lacking any attempt to disguise unpleasantness). But I do think that at this point we need to honestly address some of the issues underlying our assumptions about sexuality, masculinity, femininity, power, and assault.

Unfortunately, in most venues, all attempts to talk about possible causes and solutions to this problem are routinely and immediately shot down, frequently by people calling others names and putting words in their mouths. Apparently people would rather just complain.

In general, I think the social and economic demands placed on many people at this point are in fact likely to lead to any amount of bad behavior of various kinds. What makes it more difficult is that we don't particularly seem to agree on what bad behavior is, except in the most egregious cases (most of which involve criminal behavior). I agree that we are lumping far to many diverse situations under the same heading, although I haven't seen many people even attempt to come up with a set of rules for workplace behavior (other than never be alone with women, and no alcohol at any work-related event).

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
You feel isolated? Volunteer at a community center, mentor a younger colleague, join a church, form a professional association. Be a friend.

I thought part of the point of the OP was that our requirements for being a "successful" man ("successful" in the way of the men in these newsworthy allegations) preclude having even the time for such things. When all you do is work, almost all of your relationships are going to be related to work, which, given the structure of most workplaces, means there are likely to be a certain number of power discrepancies. When people assume that a certain amount of fame in a given industry gives someone power over not only all others in that industry, but over almost all other people, the only people they can have ever any contact with are people that they have power over. By definition.

Which does make it seem like we are setting people up.

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In future the men of today, the boys who will be men tomorrow, they'll know.

They'll know what? That they have to live in constant terror? (This reminds me of Ezra Klein's bizarre rationalization for yes means yes laws, that men should feel a cold spike of fear when approaching a woman).

Thus far, there's been very little agreement about what, exactly, constitutes sexual harassment, much less what what qualifies as a firing or career and reputation destroying offense.

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
It's wonderful that a message is being sent to men that what they do in their offices or hotel suites may come to light some day, but I don't think we have the right to sacrifice innocent men in the name of the cause.

Because we don't have that right. This will only lead to badness. For my thoughts on Keillor, see here.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This bit here illustrates the flaws in her logic.
quote:
It may not win me any popularity contests to ask this next question, but what stopped Carlson from just telling the cameraman to shut up? True, she was a young woman in her early twenties, and recently hired.
She answers her own question, if she had the experience to understand it.
I'm sorry, but I'm a bit slow when it comes to the world according to what is obvious to certain people, but what exactly is the flaw in her logic? How does she answer her own question? What experience does she need to understand "it"?

Because right now it sounds like you believe that younger women (or all women) are too weak and pathetic to do so much as speak up about bothersome behavior. But that can't be what you're actually saying, can it be?

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Well! Boo-hoo: some men may think they'll find their "emotional needs" met if they assault someone? Are you kidding?

If we were only talking about cases in which men were accused of assault (which is true of some of the more egregious cases), I'd be a little more inclined to listen to you. But we've clearly moved beyond that, not only in the cases that have been happening IRL, but in the cases that have been brought up on the Ship. But, of course, we don't know what happened in some of those cases, so apparently it's ok to condemn the accused anyway. THey deserve it.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It is possible that office affairs don't lead anywhere else, but I suspect a lot of the time it is a pattern of behaviour for abusive men. I suspect that for many they begin with something that is consensus, then move on to something less consensual, then move on to something clearly abusive.

The problem is that in many work scenarios, the idea of consent is quite problematic. A woman might agree to sex, but if she's doing it because she thinks it it is the only way to get a promotion.. well, that's arguably not a consent freely given.

And the other problem is that in the US between sixteen and twenty percent of marriages began in the workplace, and large numbers of Millennials view work as an appropriate place to start a romantic relationship.

Given those facts, what is appropriate workplace behavior? How do you determine consent when there's a power relationship? How do you know if someone is agreeing to sex only because they think it's the only way to get a promotion? Who makes that determination, and is it subject to retroactive evaluation by an aggrieved party?

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
But but but but but but I didn't mean to do it! I didn't mean any harm! I have no malice towards the other driver! It was just a few scratches! Why am I being blamed when I didn't intend any harm? It was an accident!

In case my analogy isn't clear enough, Russ, we all have to accept responsibility for our actions, regardless of our motives.

One presumes you were taught that, unless you're in a bumper car, any contact between your car and another car is forbidden. All the time. One also presumes that you not only knew that you had accidentally bumped into the other car in the first place, but that you had also in fact exchanged insurance or other information at the time, in order for you to get a bill for the repairs. One assumes that you had to actually damage the other car in order for there to be anything to be billed for, and that you were not simply asked to pay money because fifteen years ago someone in another car found your car threatening and potentially damaging and thought that you had used its size/niceness/relative niceness compared to their car/whatever to bully them out of a parking space.

Analogy fail.

Intent may not matter (although it frequently does in criminal law), but we can't base our punishments solely on the feelings of the alleged victim, either.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This article, I think, might shed light on the OP.

How, exactly, does this shed light on the OP?

What are you trying to say here? Because I have no idea.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Keillor said the woman "recoiled". *Then* he apologized.

So the woman recoiled, thus indicating that she was displeased with the contact (which, from the descriptions we have so far, is not necessarily contact that all women would have found objectionable). Upon learning of her objection, one assumes he removed his hand, and then he apologized.

Are we now expecting people to be psychic and know that common non-criminal behavior and contact is objectionable even before anyone objects to it?

The articles I've read referring to the second accuser say that it was someone who objected to Keillor's conduct towards others, not towards them. If this hysteria follows the pattern of the campus rape saga, we are well and truly screwed if we're going to take the accusations of third parties as evidence of wrongdoing, particularly if the alleged "victim" doesn't object.

And yes, I know, we don't know whether or not the alleged "victim" did or did not object: but that's the point. This kind of extreme reaction without allowing the accused to hear the accusations against them or face their accusers is simply wrong and is almost inevitably going to lead us down a dark and ugly path.

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
If it was just one comment to one woman, one might say it was an accident. But multiple women feeling harassed?

So we're going to destroy people's lives and livelihoods over comments and feelings now? There's no requirement that the conduct be severe or pervasive enough to create a hostile work environment?

This will not end well.

For anyone.

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Me too. Inappropriate behavior and comments? You got no excuse any more.

For the love of G-d, would any of the people who are so eager to crucify people care to define what qualifies as "inappropriate behavior and comments"?

Because it's fairly clear to me that people in the US don't agree on the most basic attitudes towards sex, much less what behavior is appropriate in any given context. And yet there are an awful lot of people who seem to be willing to inflict severe punishment based on what are starting to seem like whims.

This is not the way to go about achieving any kind of long-term cultural change.

quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
I know it wasn't sexual, but I felt really uncomfortable with it. It took me several took several meetings before I could screw up the courage to tell him.

I'm sorry it took several meetings before you felt like you had the courage to tell him, but would you have felt comfortable telling someone else (like your friend), and asking them to tell him?

quote:
Also I have left a church where the Vicar was a huggy person. I made an appointment to see him and explained that I found touch difficult, (it was not long after I had been raped, which he knew) and asked him not to, but he ignored my request, so I left. I don't think his touch was sexual either, but his continuing to ignore my request still felt like harassment.
Even non-sexual touch can be harassment if you've made it clear that it is not something you are ok with. In general, people failing to change their behavior in reasonable ways to accommodate others are, at the very least, jerks. And they are frequently signaling their willingness to ignore people's boundaries in all kinds of other ways (some of them dangerous).

quote:
I suppose this could be written off as me being a delicate wee flower, but there will be other women out there who have had similar experiences.

Huia

It's not being a delicate flower at all to be clear on what your comfort levels with various things are, and to make those boundaries clear to other people. When they violate them, they are in the wrong.

However, I question whether it's reasonable to expect that everyone can adjust to the sensitivities of all without being asked to do so (not that I'm accusing you of doing this). But it does point to the difficulty in setting general rules and leaving the odd person out without any responsibilities to inform others of their needs and preferences (and I hope that doesn't sound accusatory towards you - I myself have certain oddities that I have to inform people of - it's meant to be more of a comment on the current state of the culture with regard to these kinds of accusations).

So, what has anyone learned from this latest round of sexual harassment allegations? We're still generally not allowed to talk about it (except to condemn it), what causes it (except it's about POWER, which good luck eliminating that), what we might do to prevent it, what appropriate punishments might be (except complete exile), or say anything about the alleged victims, except that we believe them and their feelings are valid...

Or am I missing something? In all these threads (starting, I believe, with the Weinstein one), has anyone learned anything, except that there are a bunch of taboo subjects, discussion of which is likely to get shut down?

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2941 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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saysay--

My comment about recoiling was in direct response to someone else's comment that *Keillor* felt uncomfortable, and apologized. From what Keillor wrote, that isn't what happened.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18173 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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I've looked over the posts, and I'm afraid I can't see the distinction you're making, or why you think it's significant. Can you explain?

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2941 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Excellent post say-say. I don't agree with everything in the post, but it is an excellent counterpoint. Thanks for making a fair dinkum contribution to the topic.

I do think this social change business is long term though, and now is the time for victims to be heard so that future victims might have the courage to speak.

Mind you, as I have said previously there has been legislation making workplace sexual harassment unlawful in my state since the mid-80's, and that established the Victorian Equal Opportunity Commission, a body that allowed complainants to seek redress first by mediation and then by hearing, appealable to the Supreme Court. Monetary awards of damages could be made and I think orders of restorative justice, but I've been out of the game for more than 15 years so not sure on that last bit. The legislation in this jurisdiction has a pretty good definition of harassment and has over 20 years of case law behind it.

What constitutes sexual harassment in the workplace is pretty clear in Victoria, and I have attended numerous sessions on it, so that my employer could show that it has complied with its obligation to make efforts to prevent this behavior.

Obviously its Weinstein that has re-ignited anger that despite these legislative reforms, sexual harassment in the workplace still happens.

--------------------
Human

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:


quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This bit here illustrates the flaws in her logic.
quote:
It may not win me any popularity contests to ask this next question, but what stopped Carlson from just telling the cameraman to shut up? True, she was a young woman in her early twenties, and recently hired.
She answers her own question, if she had the experience to understand it.
I'm sorry, but I'm a bit slow when it comes to the world according to what is obvious to certain people, but what exactly is the flaw in her logic? How does she answer her own question? What experience does she need to understand "it"?

Carlson didn't have the experience or clout to confront a man in a man's world. Women's position in entertainment is precarious, much more than a man's.

quote:

Because right now it sounds like you believe that younger women (or all women) are too weak and pathetic to do so much as speak up about bothersome behavior. But that can't be what you're actually saying, can it be?

Yeah, continue the bullshit that it is a level playing field; that women can speak up with no consequences, not threat of job loss.


quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This article, I think, might shed light on the OP.

How, exactly, does this shed light on the OP?

What are you trying to say here? Because I have no idea.[/QB][/QUOTE]
I'm saying Ohher's POV might be due to a different perspective, one that is informed by attitudes of the past.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17100 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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saysay--

quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I've looked over the posts, and I'm afraid I can't see the distinction you're making, or why you think it's significant. Can you explain?

Sure. On the previous page, Twilight said:

quote:
For me the witch hunt started with Garrison Keillor losing everything over putting his hand comfortingly on the back of a woman who was telling him a sad story. Her back happened to be bare because her shirt was short and open and Keillor pulled his hand away and said "Excuse me," when he realized he was on bare skin. Now NPR has fired him. No warning, nothing, just career over, reputation ruined.
Note: I do *not* want to believe anything against Keillor. I'm a long-time fan of PHC; and it was very hard for me when he retired from the show, and the format changed. It was also hard for me to listen to it tonight. Name's changed to "Chris Thile Show", and Chris opened with a very good statement about the situation and the show. However, I was getting so upset that I had to turn it off. May try again tomorrow. But no more "Powdered Milk Biscuit" song, half an hour in, ever again.
[Tear]



My reply to Twilight is here.

Keillor gave few details, and those are open to interpretation. E.g., what does "Her blouse was open" mean? You can see Twilight's interpretation above. Keillor was just being a good friend; the woman wore a short/cropped shirt; and Keillor immediately felt bad, and stopped on his own. I thought maybe she was wearing an open shirt as a jacket, but that still didn't make sense. An article I read suggested that her blouse was simply untucked, and his hand went up underneath it--6 inches, by his own estimation.

Twilight's assessment is that Keillor is a good guy who made an innocent mistake, immediately realized it, and is being subjected to a witch hunt.

That might be true...but IMHO it doesn't really fit Keillor's account, and his account doesn't make perfect sense, anyway. And he's since mentioned a second complaint, though MPR hasn't.

ISTM this is less "innocent until proven guilty", and more "forever innocent, because he's too nice a guy to have done something like that".

Sometimes, nice guys do awful things. And, sometimes, nice guys aren't actually so nice.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18173 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

ISTM this is less "innocent until proven guilty", and more "forever innocent, because he's too nice a guy to have done something like that".

Sometimes, nice guys do awful things. And, sometimes, nice guys aren't actually so nice.

There's obviously been a lot of interpretation (by both Shipmates and journalists) about what exactly "her shirt was open" means, and we're not likely to sort that out without more information from Keillor, his alleged victim, or an official report. And I'm still not clear on what about Keillor's account doesn't make sense.

But it's the quoted paragraphs that concern me. I'm well aware that seemingly nice guys sometimes aren't actually all that nice and sometimes fact do horrible things. But your attitude (which is shared by others) is exactly what makes me think that this is a witch hunt.

You seem convinced that this is not a case of "innocent until proven guilty" but a refusal of people to accept that he's guilty because he's such a "nice" guy.

But no one - including him - has even had a chance to see the accusations against him. That alone makes it something of a witch hunt and a violation of the ideals that many in the US hold dear.

Even if he is guilty, what the he'll is he guilty of? Briefly putting his hand on a woman's bare back? That simply doesn't qualify as sexual harassment in many people's book. It's neither severe nor pervasive. It's a single action (a mistake) for which he apologized. According to what we currently know, it's not a pattern of behavior (and I'm sorry, but that is significant when evaluating the seriousness of allegations). And putting your hand on someone's bare back is not necessarily inappropriate (although it sounds like in this case both he and the woman he touched thought it was).

So why is there a widespread assumption of guilt? And what exactly do people think he's guilty of? Because unless there's a lot more info that we don't have, his "inappropriate behavior" does not warrant the response it received unless people are gripped by a sexual harassment panic.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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I have to say, I share the worry that this is getting out of control in the case of Garrison Keillor.

Not because I especially like the guy. I like some of his material, my parents are bigger fans.

But because from the limited material we have (and let's face it, we only have reporting to go by in all these cases) this is a case of a person who apologised then and there, in the moment.

This is quite different from a number of the cases of some kind of apology now, years after the fact, and in some instances as a whole series of people come forward to say there was a consistent pattern of behaviour. In many instances it's at least arguable that people aren't sorry about what happened, they're sorry about being caught.

What's unclear in the Keillor case is whether there is more to the story, i.e. whether it will turn into something bigger as did some of the other cases that started with a single incident. As one article I've read pointed out, the Keillor case is somewhat unusual in that almost all the available information came from Keillor himself. So maybe he's minimising it.

There's a perhaps even more questionable case happening at the moment here in Australia with Geoffrey Rush. The information available is that someone at a theatre company complained about Rush, but wanted it handled quietly... SO quietly, in fact, that they didn't even want Rush told. But then the media was told. So the current situation appears to be that Rush doesn't even know what he was accused of, or who by, and the theatre company refuses to tell him.

But from what I've seen, they've confirmed that they told a journalist when asked. Now, putting aside the question of how the journalist knew to ask (and what exactly they asked), to tell a journalist when they haven't told Rush is spectacularly unfair.

[ 03. December 2017, 07:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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saysay--

My concern was that Twilight (and many, many fans) seem to assume that Keillor *can't possibly* have done anything bad, because they like him. Hence, the "forever innocent" comment.

I'm not pushing for his guilt. I'd love for this to be some horrible misunderstanding.

I'm just saying that it *could* be the other way. I've had too many people I admire fall from grace (and not just lately) to firmly assume that someone's "forever innocent".

And, if it was a matter of running his hand up way up under her shirt, I don't see any way for that to be innocent comforting of an employee, friend, and/or colleague.

FWIW, YMMV.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18173 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:


quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This bit here illustrates the flaws in her logic.
quote:
It may not win me any popularity contests to ask this next question, but what stopped Carlson from just telling the cameraman to shut up? True, she was a young woman in her early twenties, and recently hired.
She answers her own question, if she had the experience to understand it.
I'm sorry, but I'm a bit slow when it comes to the world according to what is obvious to certain people, but what exactly is the flaw in her logic? How does she answer her own question? What experience does she need to understand "it"?

Carlson didn't have the experience or clout to confront a man in a man's world. Women's position in entertainment is precarious, much more than a man's.
He was a cameraman. That is a fairly disposable position without a lot of clout. She told her boss about it, which indicates that she didn't particularly think her job was precarious or contingent on her putting up with such behavior.

How does her failure to confront him have anything to do with her experience or clout? By that logic, aren't all women women in a man's world and thus incapable of confronting anyone ever?

(Also, you implied that Kipnis, the author of the article, was the one lacking the experience to understand her own question, or at least to understand the answer to it, which still doesn't make sense, but whatever).

quote:
quote:

Because right now it sounds like you believe that younger women (or all women) are too weak and pathetic to do so much as speak up about bothersome behavior. But that can't be what you're actually saying, can it be?

Yeah, continue the bullshit that it is a level playing field; that women can speak up with no consequences, not threat of job loss.
Yeah, continue the bullshit that men are inherently more powerful than women and that therefore all of their interactions are in some sense coerced. It goes well with the bullshit about how women are never perpetrators and the bullshit about how we have to automatically believe women who claim to have been sexually harassed or assaulted because women never lie (at least not about stuff lime that).

There's not much that can be done about people who want to be perpetual victims.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2941 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
in case my analogy isn't clear enough, Russ, we all have to accept responsibility for our actions, regardless of our motives.

The proper response when one hurts another person inadvertently is not, "I didn't mean any harm! You're too sensitive! I didn't know any better! It's not my fault! Don't blame me!"

The proper response is "I'm sorry. I won't do it again."

Yes, you're right, that's what should happen. And where material damage has been inadvertently caused, an offer to pay the cost might form part of the apology.

And the proper response to an apology is ?

"I forgive you" probably isn't explicitly said very much. But something along the lines of "I know you didn't mean any harm" can do a lot to restore or rebuild the relationship.

But those are the easy cases...

In between the cases of wrongful intent and the cases of miscommunication - one person innocently and inadvertently getting closer than the other is comfortable with - is the whole grey area around the casting couch.

And in the area of sexuality we're not talking about quantifiable material damage, but about experiences that different people might find either extremely pleasurable or deeply traumatic.

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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It is astounding by the way people’s names are being pulled like rabbits from a hat over this subject.
Whoever, or whatever, is driving this seems unperturbed that a massive grey area is being created whereby even a man who spontaneously hugs a women is getting close to being equated with a pervert or rapist.

It is starting to look like another victory for fear.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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What I learned on these boards is the following:
  • touch between adults and even children of a young age is a matter of negotiation between both parties (infants and toddlers excepted).
  • the negotiation is done mainly through physical action. People who are really anti-touch normally signal it pretty darn clearly.
  • most people after initial infancy know how to participate in these negotiations (some mental conditions may make this difficult and in such cases allowances should be made)
  • when an individual chooses in such circumstances to prioritise their need over the other's desires then that is abusive
  • the statement above cuts both ways. Not touching can be as abusive as touching.

Jengie

[ 03. December 2017, 10:36: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
  • when an individual chooses in such circumstances to prioritise their need over the other's desires then that is abusive

This needs to be recast. It includes, by the way that it is worded, a child who refuses to be hugged by Aunt Hilda as an abuser.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
He was a cameraman. That is a fairly disposable position without a lot of clout.

Not always how that works; in reality it is highly situational. However, let us presume that in that organisation, at that time, what you say is accurate. She is a woman. At that time, 1980's or 90's, she was not a reporter, but eye-candy.*
quote:

She told her boss about it, which indicates that she didn't particularly think her job was precarious or contingent on her putting up with such behavior.

Read the article. She told her boss after he asked her why she was so shaken.

*Not a denigration of her abilities, but of how she would be perceived at the time.

quote:

Yeah, continue the bullshit that men are inherently more powerful than women and that therefore all of their interactions are in some sense coerced. It goes well with the bullshit about how women are never perpetrators and the bullshit about how we have to automatically believe women who claim to have been sexually harassed or assaulted because women never lie (at least not about stuff lime that).

If you are auditioning as head of your local Men's Rights chapter; I can only say congratulations, you cannot fail. As is typical on this subject, your argument is an idiot.
I could say that men do currently dominate the power structure of most everything. And I could say that women are human and humans are conditioned to work within a structure, rather than against it. I could mention that history is replete with examples of how much more difficult it is for those outside of the power structure to implement change regardless of sex (or race or gender, etc.). I might then add how humans, all of us, are strongly influenced by culture and its expectations and how our current culture treats men and women.
And how being the first in a movement is incredibly difficult for the above mentioned factors.
I could mention the numerous times I've said that abuse is about power, not sex, and that women have the potential to be as bad as men if they had the opportunity. of which they have much less in the current state of our cultures.
However I will be wasting my time, I'm sure.
Have fun in your apparent alternate reality, I will continue the fight in the one that actually exists.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17100 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It is astounding by the way people’s names are being pulled like rabbits from a hat over this subject.
Whoever, or whatever, is driving this seems unperturbed that a massive grey area is being created whereby even a man who spontaneously hugs a women is getting close to being equated with a pervert or rapist.

It is starting to look like another victory for fear.

OK, please produce the example of your magical accusations. The closest thus far is Keilor. And as we only have his version, it is stupid to assume.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Many men, when introduced to the concepts of the Patriarchy and male privilege, make the mistake of thinking that people who acknowledge the P and M.P. believe every man is more powerful, and more privileged, than every woman. I have never heard any SJW or sociologist define it so. Either we're not making ourselves clear, or the fragile man are purposely misinterpreting, or the fragile men are not capable (yet) of taking it on board because it clashes so with their worldview and the experiences they filter through that worldview.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I've been in situations where, because I was a man, I was the patriarchy and therefore verbally attacked. I don't think it's just 'some men' who misunderstand what the concept is.

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Forward the New Republic

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Many men, when introduced to the concepts of the Patriarchy and male privilege, make the mistake of thinking that people who acknowledge the P and M.P. believe every man is more powerful, and more privileged, than every woman. I have never heard any SJW or sociologist define it so. Either we're not making ourselves clear, or the fragile man are purposely misinterpreting, or the fragile men are not capable (yet) of taking it on board because it clashes so with their worldview and the experiences they filter through that worldview.

In any group that has power, there will be members who do not and those who have some but do not perceive it. This does not negate the power of the group, but those members are used to obscure that power. The same dynamic is true in groups that do not have power.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17100 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I've been in situations where, because I was a man, I was the patriarchy and therefore verbally attacked. I don't think it's just 'some men' who misunderstand what the concept is.

Point.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
In any group that has power, there will be members who do not and those who have some but do not perceive it. This does not negate the power of the group,

And of course I did not, and would not have, said so.

quote:
but those members are used to obscure that power.
Could very well be. Hadn't thought of that but it makes sense.

quote:
The same dynamic is true in groups that do not have power.
Not sure what you mean, i.e. what parts of the analogy on one side correspond to what on the other.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
In any group that has power, there will be members who do not and those who have some but do not perceive it. This does not negate the power of the group,

And of course I did not, and would not have, said so.
I was expanding on your point, not implying anything.
quote:

quote:
The same dynamic is true in groups that do not have power.
Not sure what you mean, i.e. what parts of the analogy on one side correspond to what on the other.

In a group that has little power, members who succeed are used to claim the group is not disadvantaged.

[ 03. December 2017, 18:48: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17100 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
In a group that has little power, members who succeed are used to claim the group is not disadvantaged.

Ah, I see. Thank you.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Just on saysay's intervention, I have a saying of Mark Twain's on my email sig: Whenever you find yourself in the majority its time to pause and reflect.

Social change is not a matter of a moment. It is a long struggle, a generational struggle in the case of gender equality. A good place to start social change is the law. Nothing changes attitudes faster than the likelihood of having to pay a substantial sum of money to someone else.

If an employer is required to pay money for the harassing actions of an employee unless they took reasonable steps to eliminate workplace harassment, then they are going to do that. And a great big bunch of caselaw will soon develop around what constitutes reasonable steps.

Has this happened already in America? Surely it has.

With the industry whales, like O'Reilly, Weinstein and the rest, the economic argument isn't going to work. They are worth too much money to their employers. With the rest of us harassers, we will be stomped on and turfed out as liabilities at the earliest available opportunity (bearing in mind that dickwits have rights too).

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Human

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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There was a great song on the subject, on Saturday Night Live last night. Here's a free link with the YouTube video on it.

The gist? Women have been coping with this for a long LONG time. It's terribly sad that men are uncomfortable. But I am not saddened by their suffering. Look here, on the tip of my pinky finger. See it? The smallest violin in the world. It plays 'My Heart Bleeds for You.'

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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I think the OP has been adequately dealt with, but there are a few other things to be addressed.

I wasn't that surprised by the Keillor thing; I've interviewed him twice (not my idea - I've never been a fan), and found him creepy and condescending.

In fact, several colleagues who've also interviewed him brought up that exact phrase in talking about him.

As for worried men, well, Welcome to Hell!

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I'm not dead yet.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There was a great song on the subject, on Saturday Night Live last night. Here's a free link with the YouTube video on it.

The gist? Women have been coping with this for a long LONG time. It's terribly sad that men are uncomfortable. But I am not saddened by their suffering. Look here, on the tip of my pinky finger. See it? The smallest violin in the world. It plays 'My Heart Bleeds for You.'

You're okay with seeing innocent people punished? Really? Seriously? Because they're men? Because that is really a sucky, inhuman, unchristian attitude.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
You feel isolated? Volunteer at a community center, mentor a younger colleague, join a church, form a professional association. Be a friend.
I thought part of the point of the OP was that our requirements for being a "successful" man ("successful" in the way of the men in these newsworthy allegations) preclude having even the time for such things. When all you do is work, almost all of your relationships are going to be related to work, which, given the structure of most workplaces, means there are likely to be a certain number of power discrepancies. When people assume that a certain amount of fame in a given industry gives someone power over not only all others in that industry, but over almost all other people, the only people they can have ever any contact with are people that they have power over. By definition.
This is a neat little trick being played by the wealthy and privileged as an excuse for, well, the kind of bad behavior we're talking about here, among other things. Very reminiscent of claims that those at the top of the food chain "deserve" to make 200x those at the bottom of the corporate hierarchy because those at the top have "so much more stress". But when they actually did a study, look for signs of stress-related illnesses, they found lo and behold, the people carrying the most stress were those at the bottom rungs-- the people with far less control over their time.

I think we'll find the same true here. You want to know who doesn't have time for socializing? Single moms working two minimum wage jobs to pay the rent. The moms I met at the children's hospital who had to leave a couple of kids with an iPad in the cafeteria while visit their sick child after work. Adults caring for aging parents and newborns simultaneously.

The wealthy and powerful will complain a lot about how hard they work, but the reality is they have far more control over their schedule than any of their underlings, and have far more resources available to hire help with the time-consuming irritants like grocery shopping or cleaning the John that the rest of us have to deal with.

I agree with a lot of what's been said here-- as I mentioned before, I'm also concerned about the loss of due process that's come with this sudden breaching of the floodgates, and the conflating of a 1000 different shades of misbehavior all lumped together under the single heading of "sexual harassment".

But when it comes to the very real and verifiable misbehaviors by the wealthy and influential, I'm not buying the "it's lonely at the top" sob story. This is about a raw display of power, about the thrill certain men get when they are able to take what they want without having to ask for it.

[ 04. December 2017, 04:37: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:


If an employer is required to pay money for the harassing actions of an employee unless they took reasonable steps to eliminate workplace harassment, then they are going to do that. And a great big bunch of caselaw will soon develop around what constitutes reasonable steps.

Has this happened already in America? Surely it has.

Yes, this has already happened, and we can all see how much good it has done. I sit alongside everyone else in a mandated 8 hour sexual harassment seminar every other year (mercifully now online)-- one that is so transparently obvious it might as well come stamped with a label that says "Don't blame the head office!". Full of helpful news flashes like "threatening someone's job for sex is bad". Because it really isn't about reducing sexual harassment, it's about reducing corporate liability. And it's not even accomplishing that-- these biannual jaunts did not prevent a recent lawsuit over an alleged episode of sexual bullying and corporate cover-ups.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Huia--

quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:


I am currently thinking about the women at church and elsewhere whom I routinely kiss.

They are all around my age, we have known each other for a long time, and they always volunteer their cheek to be kissed (as does my wife to their husbands) when we meet.

How long that will be wise or appropriate in the current climate remains to be seen.

I have dithered about posting this, but here goes...

I might be a bit over the top with this, but I think it might be an idea to ask the women involved. I think with the raising of awareness of what is and isn't appropriate may lead some women to be aware that they don't feel completely comfortable with cheek kissing, but the fact that it has been the usual ritual of greeting makes it difficult to say so.

I've been thinking the same. Sometimes, people suppress their discomfort, whether with cheek kissing, or air kissing, or hugs, or obvious, recognized forms of harassment. It can be like when you feel the need to speak up in response to a bad thing someone said, but you're scared. Or like a deer in headlights. (I saw something about that on a nature show. IIRC, one part of the deer's brain shuts down, then the rest go along.)

And a lot of women have been socialized to be polite, never speak up, and never disagree. So we've learned to push everything down and just get through whatever's going on--because the world and/or our lives may fall apart, if we don't. I've grown past a lot of that, but it's still a deep reflex.

This may be a reason for so many women speaking up lately. They've been carting this baggage around for a long time, wanting to get rid of it; but societal and workplace attitudes made it not ok. Once the dam started to crack (and it was a man, Mia Farrow's son, who broke the story about Weinstein), women started throwing their baggage through the widening cracks.

And much of this may apply to abused/harassed men, too.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18173 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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yeah that's right. There is no quick fix that will get the company off the hook. That's why mostly they won't put up with it, unless the harasser is making them serious money. It's completely morally bankrupt, but that's capitalism for ya.

Also, those boring seminars can contribute to changing social mores, especially in the workplace. They make it clear to perps that they are taking a risk, they make it clear to potential victims that the behavior is not acceptable and give victims a clear structure for complaints. If its a good complaints process that will include making a complaint to someone outside the chain of command and even outside the company. A good seminar will also make it clear that people can complain straight to the EOC, and ask the EOC to conduct an investigation of the workplace itself. That really puts the frighteners on management. They scare potential perps (whatever they might say) they scare management and they empower potential victims.

Surely that's worth a boring day of our time.

This is just a stage though. Its social change by fiat, a method denigrated by the right. But what's that old saying? If you have them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow.

There's currently social advertising going on here about domestic violence. Its part of a campaign of social change that included getting the law right, and getting the coppers to understand that they had to make this a top priority. It's a proven method. We have done it here with changing motorist behavior and with tobacco smoking, the 'stick' there being massively expensive fags.

Back to the OP, I think there is something to the assertion that there can be a climate for sexual harassment in existence when women are seen as a status symbol akin to a flash car or a big house. There was a scene in a Monty Python clip I posted where the village idiot hid his wealth and power so that his neighbors could continue to despise him. He had a flash car, a massive bank account and slept in a four-poster bed with two nubile and naked young women as bedfellows. I almost put a warning on the post about objectification, but what part of our culture does not presently treat young women in exactly this way?

Wife home, back later

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Human

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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858

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The world of work would be a better place if we re-imagined ideas of leadership, success, power. The idea that to be a success, to make it to the top, to lead an organisation *must* be so all-consuming, take all your time, require you to sacrifice family and other relationships, is an idea that keeps a whole range of people out of the pool of potential leaders.

The people who are being excluded from the pool might be some of the people who could improve the culture in workplaces, not least by spreading power and creating balance. So it would, over time, be a virtuous circle with greater inclusion leading to a more inclusive culture, leading to greater inclusion...

But how do we get off our current trajectory and on to the better one?

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There was a great song on the subject, on Saturday Night Live last night. Here's a free link with the YouTube video on it.

The gist? Women have been coping with this for a long LONG time. It's terribly sad that men are uncomfortable. But I am not saddened by their suffering. Look here, on the tip of my pinky finger. See it? The smallest violin in the world. It plays 'My Heart Bleeds for You.'

You're okay with seeing innocent people punished? Really? Seriously? Because they're men? Because that is really a sucky, inhuman, unchristian attitude.
Seconded. And it's not about being "uncomfortable". If you're fine with the concept of innocent people losing their jobs, and their reputation (which will make it harder to find another job), so long as they are men, then you're basically advocating mindless revenge rather than justice.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Did you see the video? Go back and click on it. It has already happened: to women. Innocent people who did not deserve to be chased around conference room tables, lose their jobs because they didn't want to fellate the boss, be denigrated as 'troublemakers' or 'unable to take a joke.' That kind of thing. Nobody paid attention. It was funny.

Now it's not. Tell me why that is bad.

I do not believe that innocent men have anything to fear. All you have to do is to treat women as human beings. It's a pity that's such a big ask.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There was a great song on the subject, on Saturday Night Live last night. Here's a free link with the YouTube video on it.

The gist? Women have been coping with this for a long LONG time. It's terribly sad that men are uncomfortable. But I am not saddened by their suffering. Look here, on the tip of my pinky finger. See it? The smallest violin in the world. It plays 'My Heart Bleeds for You.'

You're okay with seeing innocent people punished? Really? Seriously? Because they're men? Because that is really a sucky, inhuman, unchristian attitude.
Seconded. And it's not about being "uncomfortable". If you're fine with the concept of innocent people losing their jobs, and their reputation (which will make it harder to find another job), so long as they are men, then you're basically advocating mindless revenge rather than justice.
W. T. F. ?! Seriously, where does the video or Brenda's comment say all men should be punished?
Uncomfortable is what she said and what the video implies and fuck it, they are right. All men* should be uncomfortable.
Why? Because this bullshit about the innocent presupposes that everyone has the same view of what is and isn't innocent. The "harmless" toucher, the wolf whistler, the "nice" guy, etc. All think they are innocent. And a person of truly innocent mind can overstep boundaries. People need to think about how what they do affects other people. And if that makes people uncomfortable whilst they figure it out, it is well worth the price.
Many women would find merely feeling uncomfortable to be progress.


*Female predators/abusers as well. But we are talking about work and public and that space primarily belongs to men.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
yeah that's right. There is no quick fix that will get the company off the hook. That's why mostly they won't put up with it, unless the harasser is making them serious money. It's completely morally bankrupt, but that's capitalism for ya.

Also, those boring seminars can contribute to changing social mores, especially in the workplace. They make it clear to perps that they are taking a risk, they make it clear to potential victims that the behavior is not acceptable and give victims a clear structure for complaints. If its a good complaints process that will include making a complaint to someone outside the chain of command and even outside the company. A good seminar will also make it clear that people can complain straight to the EOC, and ask the EOC to conduct an investigation of the workplace itself. That really puts the frighteners on management. They scare potential perps (whatever they might say) they scare management and they empower potential victims.

Surely that's worth a boring day of our time.

It would be worth several boring days-- if in fact it did that. But as we're seeing right now in industry after industry, it's not doing that. It didn't do that in my workplace, and it's not doing it in any others that I can see as well. These sorts of mandated sexual harassment seminars have been standard in most workplaces of any size for more than a decade, but I'm not seeing a single sign that they've been effective. All they do is send the message, "if you're f****** someone we don't want to know about it so we have plausible deniability."

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I think it begins with correct diagnosis. Again, I'm not convinced that "working too many hours to have a proper work life balance" is the problem-- I think the "hard work" of CEOs is vastly overrated and, in fact, it's the struggling minimum wage workers who really are the ones having trouble finding time to nurture family life. I suspect the answer lies in a total re-examination of the way we look at power-- who gets it, how they are held accountable-- and new models of shared leadership.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Here you go, a free and much more nuanced explanation of what I'm trying to say.
A quote:
"I hope to be able to continue to write in a way that focuses on those harmed by abuses of power and privilege. I hope to continue to write with integrity and honesty. And I hope that we all can try to read with the same focus and the same integrity. And that we can all work together to be more aware of how we are being manipulated and distracted and misrepresented and shamed into believing that we do not deserve to be centered in conversations on our oppression. That we do not deserve to be heard. That we do not deserve justice. That we do not deserve “due process.” Due process is long overdue."

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
...I do not believe that innocent men have anything to fear. All you have to do is to treat women as human beings. It's a pity that's such a big ask.

Nope, they don't have anything to fear. Speaking as a woman who "can't take a joke" when it involves sexual harassment or abuse, I know that innocent women have been paying a huge price all along.

And when it comes to sexual predators, it looks as though the biggest open secret in classical music is finally officially out. The Met is shocked, shocked - but for years they covered up for him (and made payoffs, if reliable sources and persistent rumors are to be believed). I hope this doesn't bring down the company.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:


I'm not sure what the solution is, but I think it begins with correct diagnosis. Again, I'm not convinced that "working too many hours to have a proper work life balance" is the problem-- I think the "hard work" of CEOs is vastly overrated

It is. But even for those exceptions that are overworked, it is a bullshit excuse for sexual harassment. Are they to be excused for stealing, beating employees or other bad behaviour? Those are not considered excuseable offenses merely because they are “overworked” so why is harassment?

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is. But even for those exceptions that are overworked, it is a bullshit excuse for sexual harassment.

Yes, this.

Working long hours, travelling with colleagues and living in hotel rooms can certainly be "excuses" for office romances and torrid affairs.

Consensual affairs (actual consent, rather than when the actor you're considering casting "consents" to give you a blow job) may well be unwise, but they're not any kind of harassment.

Nothing excuses any kind of harassment. If you're the boss, don't ask your minions out, and certainly don't proposition them for sex. Asking a co-worker out on a date? Not harassment, if you do it once, and take no for an answer. Asking a co-worker for sex? Probably harassment, even if you only do it once. Most people don't want to be asked for sex by colleagues.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I do not believe that innocent men have anything to fear.

You can believe it all you like. That does not make it true.

You and I can both believe that the women coming forward are telling the truth. That does not mean that no woman anywhere will ever decide that a good way of taking down a man is to accuse a man of something he hasn't done.

Nor does it mean it has never, ever happened. I've heard pretty directly of it happening. No, it is not most cases. But it will be some. People will take advantage of the current atmosphere to attempt it.

[ 04. December 2017, 20:02: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is. But even for those exceptions that are overworked, it is a bullshit excuse for sexual harassment.

Yes, this.

Working long hours, travelling with colleagues and living in hotel rooms can certainly be "excuses" for office romances and torrid affairs.

mino tweak: they create opportunities for office affairs, not excuses.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11131 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I do not believe that innocent men have anything to fear.

You can believe it all you like. That does not make it true.

You and I can both believe that the women coming forward are telling the truth. That does not mean that no woman anywhere will ever decide that a good way of taking down a man is to accuse a man of something he hasn't done.

Nor does it mean it has never, ever happened. I've heard pretty directly of it happening. No, it is not most cases. But it will be some. People will take advantage of the current atmosphere to attempt it.

You are surely not arguing, are you? That because, say, two percent of accusations are false, that all of them should be ignored for ever?

You must concede that if -many- women show up with similar stories about the same man over a long period of time, and with handwritten evidence, too! that the -probability- is that there is not collusion, but actual villainy there.

We must hold ever before us now that the Russians are happily meddling in all our affairs. It is entirely possible, probable even, that they're going to fish up a totally false accusation and fling it, in hopes of further disrupting the polity. I am certain they are considering this; we're going to see a lot more of this and some of it will be entirely faked. We must be wise and wary. But that doesn't mean that bad men should be allowed to skate untouched, as they have for so long.

[ 04. December 2017, 22:38: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Did you see the video? Go back and click on it. It has already happened: to women. Innocent people who did not deserve to be chased around conference room tables, lose their jobs because they didn't want to fellate the boss, be denigrated as 'troublemakers' or 'unable to take a joke.' That kind of thing. Nobody paid attention. It was funny.

Now it's not. Tell me why that is bad.

It is not and I have never said so.

quote:
I do not believe that innocent men have anything to fear.
Then you are in la-la land.

quote:
All you have to do is to treat women as human beings. It's a pity that's such a big ask.
It's not a big ask. Nobody here has said it was, I don't believe.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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