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Source: (consider it) Thread: Do we pressure men into sexual misconduct?
Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
a person of truly innocent mind can overstep boundaries.

That's true. And the solution to that is clearer boundaries.

But what's going on at the moment isn't creating greater clarity as to where the boundaries are.

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

I do not believe that innocent men have anything to fear.

Then you are in la-la land.

Some innocent men might be accused and suffer from that. This is unfortunate and unavoidable without complete cessation of attempts to address the harassment problems.
It is exactly the same as every other enforcement of laws and standards, there will be innocent people affected. Happens every day with every crime and standard we have. The solution is to proceed as responsibly as can be done. Just as with every other standard and law.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

I do not believe that innocent men have anything to fear.

Then you are in la-la land.

Some innocent men might be accused and suffer from that. This is unfortunate and unavoidable without complete cessation of attempts to address the harassment problems.
It is exactly the same as every other enforcement of laws and standards, there will be innocent people affected. Happens every day with every crime and standard we have. The solution is to proceed as responsibly as can be done. Just as with every other standard and law.

Then you admit innocent men may have somewhat to fear. You agree with me. Thank you.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Then you admit innocent men may have somewhat to fear. You agree with me.

Probably not. With any enforcement, some innocent will suffer, yet we stilll enforce laws and standards.
What is happening now is no different. So why the whinging about this issue?
If all you are doing is staying the obvious, fine. But many men saying similar are implying this is somehow more egregious for this issue.
We don’t want a looser standard, we want to have this problem to finally be taken seriously.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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And this is why I posted that "decent and trying-to-be-decent men" should be extra careful, because when there's lots of rage, it can spill over on people who don't deserve it. And I know that sometimes decent guys don't understand boundaries, so I gave some guidelines (however imperfect).

I also posted that to establish and maintain my own balance, because of my own rage.

One difficulty is that, with all the recent allegations, and the child sexual abuse in the RCC and all sorts of other places, and stuff that's embedded in US culture, and my own #metoo experiences...it can be extremely hard to remember that there are good guys *at all*.

It would be most helpful if men who are creeps wore a scarlet "C" where everyone could see it...to be removed if they truly get better.

And yes, women abuse, too. And men are abused by other men. Etc.

FWIW.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

What is happening now is no different. So why the whinging about this issue?
.

The stigma attached to an accusation of sexual misconduct is hard to wash away with a "not guilty" verdict due to the seriousness of the accusations.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I do not believe that innocent men have anything to fear.

You can believe it all you like. That does not make it true.

You and I can both believe that the women coming forward are telling the truth. That does not mean that no woman anywhere will ever decide that a good way of taking down a man is to accuse a man of something he hasn't done.

Nor does it mean it has never, ever happened. I've heard pretty directly of it happening. No, it is not most cases. But it will be some. People will take advantage of the current atmosphere to attempt it.

You are surely not arguing, are you? That because, say, two percent of accusations are false, that all of them should be ignored for ever?

You must concede that if -many- women show up with similar stories about the same man over a long period of time, and with handwritten evidence, too! that the -probability- is that there is not collusion, but actual villainy there.

We must hold ever before us now that the Russians are happily meddling in all our affairs. It is entirely possible, probable even, that they're going to fish up a totally false accusation and fling it, in hopes of further disrupting the polity. I am certain they are considering this; we're going to see a lot more of this and some of it will be entirely faked. We must be wise and wary. But that doesn't mean that bad men should be allowed to skate untouched, as they have for so long.

No, I am not arguing that. And I think it’s fairly clear from my post that I’m not arguing that.

What I am arguing is that there needs to be a level of guarding against false accusations rather than glibly asserting that it doesn’t matter if any men are suffering and that they deserve the world’s smallest violin. Or having a frankly naive belief that innocent people have nothing to fear.

There is a long list of historical cases of people promising to only punish the guilty but failing to have the mechanisms in place to ensure this, and then punishing the innocent as well. The world of social media is frankly ripe for this problem. It’s a whole universe of retweet first and ask questions later.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

I do not believe that innocent men have anything to fear.

Then you are in la-la land.

Some innocent men might be accused and suffer from that. This is unfortunate and unavoidable without complete cessation of attempts to address the harassment problems.
It is exactly the same as every other enforcement of laws and standards, there will be innocent people affected. Happens every day with every crime and standard we have. The solution is to proceed as responsibly as can be done. Just as with every other standard and law.

And here as well, I would point out that you need to consider what the enforcement mechanisms actually ARE here. Most of these cases are not actually involving police or courts of law.

I don’t have the level of faith that you apparently do that there’ll be a consistently decent level of checking before people lose their livelihood over an allegation. Heck, even the lawful authorities don’t do a great job. In my own city there’ve been 2 cases in the last few years of false accusations leading to lengthy processes and one of those involved jail time for the falsely accused. It’s a serious issue.

[ 05. December 2017, 01:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Perhaps there will be as decent a police supervision of the investigations as, oh, in the killings of black men. If you fear that the quality will be of that abysmal level, it is a valid concern. Perhaps the solution then is to make investigations and prosecutions more fair.

The solution of ignoring the crimes or perpetually diving into 'what about-ism' is now no longer open. We as a society have to deal with it.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Perhaps there will be as decent a police supervision of the investigations as, oh, in the killings of black men. If you fear that the quality will be of that abysmal level, it is a valid concern. Perhaps the solution then is to make investigations and prosecutions more fair.

As Orfeo said, it's not even about police investigations. People are losing their jobs and potentially their employability without even getting a day in court. Trial in the court of public opinion is all it takes. Your and lilBuddha's callousness about it doesn't make the world seem any safer.

quote:
The solution of ignoring the crimes or perpetually diving into 'what about-ism' is now no longer open. We as a society have to deal with it.
I have not suggested otherwise, nor has orfeo.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Sure Brenda, and the legal mechanisms have been in place for a long time, bearing in mind that many of the acts that fall within the definition of sexual harassment are not criminal, but give rise to a civil action in a specialist jurisdiction here in Victoria. The strategy so far has been to rope the employer in, and make them pay if they haven't taken reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment in their workplace. The last I checked, and that was a long time ago, no employer has ever successfully defended their process as reasonable steps.

It might be that this legal strategy needs revisiting. The pattern for employer strategy has changed over time. Originally it was to stand by the harassing employee and put the victim to her proof, settling the matter before a public hearing. In the late 90's this changed to ditching the harasser and sacking him as part of showing how serious the employer was about dealing with sexual harassment. Then they'd settle. If you were representing the harasser, your job was to try and get him into that settlement, otherwise you risked the victim continuing to pursue the matter against the harasser.

I'm not sure how they run things now, but certainly in some corporate boardrooms, sexual harassment or having a relationship with a less senior employee does get you sacked. I recall that the AFL (Australian Football League - the beating heart of corporate Melbourne) separated from a male senior manager last year for this stuff, as did I think Channel 7, one of our TV stations, who sacked their CEO (?) for having an affair with his PA. If they are going this hardcore against someone in the club (and these blokes were establishment types in establishment jobs) can you imagine what they will do to someone who is an ordinary Joe? They are going to go all Germinal on him.

If the AFL and major TV networks are doing this to people inside the circle of power, you can bet that other major corporations in this country who are being advised by our small and incestuous group of major Corporate Law Firms will do exactly the same, because those law firms all give roughly the same advice.

I might be mansplaining this stuff. Please forgive me. I think its important.

--------------------
Human

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
...People are losing their jobs and potentially their employability without even getting a day in court. Trial in the court of public opinion is all it takes. Your and lilBuddha's callousness about it doesn't make the world seem any safer....

The problem here is with Trial by Social Media, which happens all the time, and is no less evil for its ubiquity. I'm not yet aware of any major figures brought down by unsubstantiated rumor alone, however.

--------------------
I'm not dead yet.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Your and lilBuddha's callousness about it doesn't make the world seem any safer.

Callous. Really. The least likely group to be falsely accused has a ᵗᶦⁿʸ percentage greater chance than previously and all of a sudden it is panic time?
I do not take false accusation lightly, I'd wager more of my family have a higher chance of this happening than yours.
Once again for emphasis, We don’t want a looser standard, we want to have this problem to finally be taken seriously.
The news might make it appear that there is a great deal of accused, but that is illusion. Look at how many male politicians and famous men there are currently and then see how few are actually being accused. And even fewer that have yet to have real consequences. Look at Al Franken.¹ Before the photos and additional accusers, people were cautious. Read the discussions about Kiellor,² One accuser thus far and the wolves are not yet tearing him apart. The feared hysteria and false accusation avalanche isn't yet happening.
Men are worried about the incredibly small chance of being falsely accused of the things that actually happen to women and LGBTI on a frequent basis.
I have much sympathy for anyone falsely accused, but not as much as the ones who would slow down progress on this issue with their, mostly, unfounded fears.
¹Still has his job.
²Fired from semi-retirement. Over reaction or proper reaction not yet known.
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

What is happening now is no different. So why the whinging about this issue?
.

The stigma attached to an accusation of sexual misconduct is hard to wash away with a "not guilty" verdict due to the seriousness of the accusations.
Incorrect. Child Molestation accusations are difficult to wash away. Rape is sometimes.
The rest of sexual misconduct? How many stories of men having a history of misconduct that was an open secret which didn't affect their careers, of it being reported and ignored, etc., will it take to sink in that it has not been hard to wash away or at least ignore?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I do not take false accusation lightly, I'd wager more of my family have a higher chance of this happening than yours.

It sounds like you've never actually been on the receiving end of serious, career and life-destroying false accusations.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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I always find the “this problem isn’t important to discuss because there’s some other problem” line of argument very strange. I think I’ve just seen it twice: the risk of false trial by social media of men is not important, because of police racism.

The reason I find the argument so strange is that one can always trump almost ANY problem with a bigger one. Sure, police racism is a problem, but look at what’s happening in Syria. And sure, that’s a problem, but millions of innocent people are dying of AIDS in Africa. And if you care about that, climate change might wipe us all out.

Enough with the ranking of problems. Human brains are quite sophisticated things, they should be able to handle multiple concepts and issues without resorting to this lame idea that one problem excludes another. They should be capable of understanding, for example, that being concerned about false accusation of men in no way implies that sexual harassment of women is not a problem that needs dealing with.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

There's a perhaps even more questionable case happening at the moment here in Australia with Geoffrey Rush. The information available is that someone at a theatre company complained about Rush, but wanted it handled quietly... SO quietly, in fact, that they didn't even want Rush told. But then the media was told. So the current situation appears to be that Rush doesn't even know what he was accused of, or who by, and the theatre company refuses to tell him.

But from what I've seen, they've confirmed that they told a journalist when asked. Now, putting aside the question of how the journalist knew to ask (and what exactly they asked), to tell a journalist when they haven't told Rush is spectacularly unfair.

I'm surprised that this has not been taken up. The press is told that there has been an accusation against a respected actor. That was before the actor himself had been told. He has still not been told who made the accusation or what it was. He has now resigned from a public position so as not to taint that organisation with this most peculiar tale.

Surely fairness demands that Rush be told, and the sooner the better.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Yes, its the quandary of confidentiality v fairness that panicky administrators sometimes twist themselves into. In this situation though someone forgot about the confidentiality.

He's slated to play in A Midsummer Nights Dream with the MTC late next year. Hopefully, the situation will be sorted by then.

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Human

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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It seems to be one of those terrible unanswerable problems.

Women are generally ignored and used by powerful men. So their voices and complaints and allegations are not heard, not believed and/or nothing is done.

There is some kind of crisis. Suddenly space opens up where women can speak about it and the floodgates open.

Which leads to some rapid actions against people accused of things

Which opens the door for people wanting to settle scores by making false accusations.

Which, unfortunately, may well lead to genuine accusations being buried and women being disbelieved and stories being buried again.

[ 05. December 2017, 07:17: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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...and there's a backlash against women, and the cycle starts over again.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18174 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It seems to be one of those terrible unanswerable problems.

Women are generally ignored and used by powerful men. So their voices and complaints and allegations are not heard, not believed and/or nothing is done.

There is some kind of crisis. Suddenly space opens up where women can speak about it and the floodgates open.

Which leads to some rapid actions against people accused of things

Which opens the door for people wanting to settle scores by making false accusations.

Which, unfortunately, may well lead to genuine accusations being buried and women being disbelieved and stories being buried again.

Yes.

The only way out of it, long term, is to deal with the way women are treated so that it's not the case that it builds up like this.

This is not so much about the actual abusers, but about all the people around who don't call out the behaviour when it happens. Who encourage the victims, in various ways, to "not rock the boat".

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I always find the “this problem isn’t important to discuss because there’s some other problem” line of argument very strange. I think I’ve just seen it twice: the risk of false trial by social media of men is not important, because of police racism.

I’m not saying that false accusation is unimportant. I’m saying it is the same problem that occurs for any similar situation. And the risk of false accusation isn’t greater than actually being harassed.
I am also saying it is a significantly smaller risk than is being implied.
It is a conundrum. The only way to safeguard men from being falsely accused is to stop making them accountable for harassment.
False accusation has always been part of the landscape for this and every other issue ever. This issue is getting attention because a group which is generally safe fears they are now not.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I do not take false accusation lightly, I'd wager more of my family have a higher chance of this happening than yours.

It sounds like you've never actually been on the receiving end of serious, career and life-destroying false accusations.
And it sounds like you’ve never been raped, sexually harassed, been forced to constantly monitor your relationships with more than half the people you work with because they thought a smile was an invitation, had to remind people that you do not fancy their sex and gender and still needed to fend off advances,...

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I think it's entirely reasonable for Eutychus (given his history) to react very badly to the idea that false accusations are simply collateral damage, without someone else trying to minimise the effects or belittle him personally.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I think it's entirely reasonable for Eutychus (given his history) to react very badly to the idea that false accusations are simply collateral damage, without someone else trying to minimise the effects or belittle him personally.

I’m not trying to minimise the effects or seriousness of false accusation. People, mostly men, are creating a backlash against an overdue movement because they fear accusation. And the risk of false accusation is being overstated.
I don’t want false accusations to happen. Because they are wrong and because they negatively affect addressing real accusations.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
]I’m not saying that false accusation is unimportant. I’m saying it is the same problem that occurs for any similar situation. And the risk of false accusation isn’t greater than actually being harassed.

What a strange thing to say.

Of course, the risk of being involved in an aircraft accident is less than the risk of being in a road-traffic accident in the UK.

So? The volume of fatal accidents on the road does not somehow mean that airline accidents are unimportant.

It is a fact that people are accused falsely. There is nothing here to debate, and this isn't saying anything about people who have experienced genuine abuse.

quote:
I am also saying it is a significantly smaller risk than is being implied.
How can you possibly know that? You're also rubbishing the experience of others and saying that their worries are unimportant.

quote:
It is a conundrum. The only way to safeguard men from being falsely accused is to stop making them accountable for harassment.
False accusation has always been part of the landscape for this and every other issue ever. This issue is getting attention because a group which is generally safe fears they are now not.

Or possibly it is because some of us are worried about innocent people having their lives turned upside-down by false spiteful accusations.

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arse

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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The risk of false accusation is something that accompanies any issue where there is accusation. This issue is no different. Tell me why it is being treated as if it is.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It sounds like you've never actually been on the receiving end of serious, career and life-destroying false accusations.

And it sounds like you’ve never been raped, sexually harassed, been forced to constantly monitor your relationships with more than half the people you work with because they thought a smile was an invitation, had to remind people that you do not fancy their sex and gender and still needed to fend off advances,...
If you've experienced all those things, that's awful.

But, really, this has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of other people's experience.

It is entirely possible for two people to have serious, opposite experiences of this. The one hardly devalues the other.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
People, mostly men, are creating a backlash against an overdue movement because they fear accusation. And the risk of false accusation is being overstated.

So, please - do you believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty, or are you trying to say that the risks of falsely accusing men is so small compared to the risk of ignoring women's reports of sexual abuse that we're into territory whereby women should always be believed no matter what.

How would that actually work as a judicial, legal or even common-or-garden interpersonal system?

quote:
I don’t want false accusations to happen. Because they are wrong and because they negatively affect addressing real accusations.
I don't think anyone has claimed that you "want" false accusations. The issue seems to be that you don't think it is a problem worth wasting any time thinking about.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The risk of false accusation is something that accompanies any issue where there is accusation. This issue is no different. Tell me why it is being treated as if it is.

Well, because I don't think there are many other issues that one can be accused of something, see their lives collapse around their ears before any proof has been weighed and/or any judicial and legal decision has been made.

The only thing I can come up with at the moment is when a teacher is accused of child abuse.

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arse

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It sounds like you've never actually been on the receiving end of serious, career and life-destroying false accusations.

And it sounds like you’ve never been raped, sexually harassed, been forced to constantly monitor your relationships with more than half the people you work with because they thought a smile was an invitation, had to remind people that you do not fancy their sex and gender and still needed to fend off advances,...
If you've experienced all those things, that's awful.

But, really, this has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of other people's experience.

It is entirely possible for two people to have serious, opposite experiences of this. The one hardly devalues the other.

You realise this also applies to what Eutychus said?
How many times must I repeat that false accusation are a bad thing.
You tell me, then, how we keep up the pressure on harassment without the possibility of false accusation?
And I would like to point out that the vast majority of the #metoo responses have not identified harassers. Accusation has never come without personal consequence.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The risk of false accusation is something that accompanies any issue where there is accusation. This issue is no different. Tell me why it is being treated as if it is.

Well, because I don't think there are many other issues that one can be accused of something, see their lives collapse around their ears before any proof has been weighed and/or any judicial and legal decision has been made.

The only thing I can come up with at the moment is when a teacher is accused of child abuse.

As I said to sharkshooter, only accusations child molestation and (sometimes) rape have that attached to them. Sexual harassment accusations don’t have that track record.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You realise this also applies to what Eutychus said?

I don't think it does. Eutychus is saying that you are minimising an experience he has had (or perhaps someone close to him has experienced). And it certainly seems that way when you keep talking about the minimal risks of someone being falsely accused.

You simply can't answer someone who says "well, sorry, I've been falsely accused" with the response "yes, but have you been raped?" and sound credible.

It might be a risk far smaller than the risk of genuine rapes being ignored. But that doesn't somehow make it unimportant.

quote:
How many times must I repeat that false accusation are a bad thing.
I don't know. As often as you keep saying it is a lower risk, perhaps?

quote:
You tell me, then, how we keep up the pressure on harassment without the possibility of false accusation?
I don't know. Hence the post I made above where I said this is a horrible problem without a simple outcome that could easily undermine itself.

As the accusations grow in number and the impacts pile up, the chances of someone settling a score with a false accusation increase. Surely that's a fairly uncontroversial point.

quote:
And I would like to point out that the vast majority of the #metoo responses have not identified harassers. Accusation has never come without personal consequence.
Not sure what this has to do with anything at all. It'd be lovely to believe that all members of a particular group are honest, that those using the #metoo hashtag are expressing honestly what happened to them. That would be brilliant.

Unfortunately I have the uncomfortable belief that humans will generally do whatever they can get away with, and that lying via a popular hashtag is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

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arse

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You realise this also applies to what Eutychus said?

In an attempt to keep this out of Hell, and bearing in mind that you find it difficult to see how what you say can be perceived as rude, please tell me whether you personally know what it's like to have your life as you knew it effectively destroyed by false accusations.

If so, then you might beneficially use your own experience to reflect on how your comments come across to those of us who have also had that experience.

If not, then you might care to take some time to wonder whether we don't have a point worth paying attention to.

[ 05. December 2017, 12:44: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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Well, at risk of sounding like a total chump -

It seems to me that everyone here can be correct at the same time. It is a terrible thing that women were not believed and that their accusations were not taken seriously. It is a good thing that this has changed.

But it is also a terrible thing when people are accused falsely of things that they didn't do - and it there is an increased risk of false accusations at the moment.

So good that women are being taken seriously, but also bad if this is leading to knee-jerk responses to accusations and false career-damaging claims.

The problem is knowing what to do about it - I'm not sure that simply saying "ah, but have you.. blahdiblah.." is really helping the discussion.

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arse

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lilBuddha
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I don’t think there is a practical solution, in the short term. The long term solution, as orfeo said earlier in this thread, is to change the way women are treated. We need to change the culture that facilitates abuse.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Brenda Clough
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well, at risk of sounding like a total chump -

It seems to me that everyone here can be correct at the same time. It is a terrible thing that women were not believed and that their accusations were not taken seriously. It is a good thing that this has changed.

But it is also a terrible thing when people are accused falsely of things that they didn't do - and it there is an increased risk of false accusations at the moment.

So good that women are being taken seriously, but also bad if this is leading to knee-jerk responses to accusations and false career-damaging claims.

The problem is knowing what to do about it - I'm not sure that simply saying "ah, but have you.. blahdiblah.." is really helping the discussion.

Good!

The one thing I would like to see appearing after all the froth has died down is a true change in awareness and social expectations. Never again should it be possible to grab pussy without repercussions. May the day of the boss with the button at his desk that locks his office door be over forever.

I don't want it to go back to the way it was.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
So, please - do you believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty,...How would that actually work as a judicial, legal or even common-or-garden interpersonal system?...

OK, here's a fact: employers are not bound by the same rules as the criminal justice system. When someone gets fired, that is the due process. Employment law is part of civil law, where cases are decided on a balance of probabilities.

Larger employers and institutions and unionized workplaces may have additional policies and practices to deal with employee misconduct, but at the end of the day (particularly in the USA), employees can be "let go" for any reason or no reason at all. Employers have always been free to operate using the concepts of "where there's smoke, there's fire" and "there's plenty of fish in the sea".

An employee can be fired for a false accusation of ANYTHING. If you think that sucks, you're right. But that was true before and during, and will be after, the zeitgeist.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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That is generally not true in the UK. Employees have significant protection against being dismissed for trivial or unfounded reasons. That's why we have so many employers trying to get around it by claiming their employees are self employed.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mr cheesy
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There seems to be a difference in the UK between "being sacked" and "being made redundant".

The former is that you've been told to leave because you've done something wrong. The latter is because the company is closing, downsizing etc so your job is being lost due to something outwith of anything you've done.

I'm not entirely clear that this distinction exists in the USA and elsewhere.

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arse

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not entirely clear that this distinction exists in the USA and elsewhere.

Sure the distinction exists in the US. But we’d say “being fired” instead of "being sacked" and “being laid off” instead of "being made redundant.”

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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mr cheesy
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I'm curious to know what would happen if someone was fired in the UK for an accusation that was false. I'd guess that they could try taking it to a tribunal to claim unfair dismissal, but I'm not sure what standard of proof is required.

I'm not sure what happens if a fired employee goes to an employment tribunal saying that they don't believe that the employer had any proof or basis for firing them.

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arse

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Brenda Clough
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No, there is a wide gap between legal culpability and employer decision making. They can fire you (in the US) for chasing girls around your desk on the instant; getting you into jail for harassment is a much higher bar.
There is also a yawning gap in the US between the private sector and the government, especially Congress. A TV show host who demands sex from his secretary can be out the door in hours. A congressman can nurture presidential ambitions; the only way to get him out may be years later at the voting booth. And as we can see in Alabama the voters may often be utterly hypocritical.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm curious to know what would happen if someone was fired in the UK for an accusation that was false. I'd guess that they could try taking it to a tribunal to claim unfair dismissal, but I'm not sure what standard of proof is required.

I'm not sure what happens if a fired employee goes to an employment tribunal saying that they don't believe that the employer had any proof or basis for firing them.

Here's one example: man gets fired from job after unproven sexual abuse allegation. Tribunal says it was unfair because "confirming that an accusation alone, however serious in nature, could not by itself found a fair SOSR* dismissal"

* some other substantive reason

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arse

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No, there is a wide gap between legal culpability and employer decision making.

Yes, there is, but that doesn't mean that employers (in the UK, at least) are free to just fire you.

In order to convict someone of a criminal offence, you must prove it in court beyond reasonable doubt. If you fire someone for "chasing girls around their desk", they could take you to an employment tribunal claiming unfair dismissal, and the case would be decided on the balance of probabilities. As an employer, you would need to show that you had investigated the allegations properly, and that you were applying your standards fairly to all employees.

You could also, incidentally, claim constructive dismissal if you were the girl being chased around the desk, you complained about it to your employer, and nothing was done about it, which forced you to quit your job. Again, that would be decided on the balance of probabilities.

AIUI, employees in the US generally don't have quite so many protections unless they're a member of a protected class and can bring an equal opportunities case.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm curious to know what would happen if someone was fired in the UK for an accusation that was false. I'd guess that they could try taking it to a tribunal to claim unfair dismissal, but I'm not sure what standard of proof is required.

I'm not sure what happens if a fired employee goes to an employment tribunal saying that they don't believe that the employer had any proof or basis for firing them.

You would need a lawyer to answer that one with any accuracy. However - speaking as someone who did take an employer to an employment tribunal - tribunals tend to be much more task-focused, rather than a forum for adversarial combat. At least that's the way mine worked.

If things have got bad, then you probably wouldn't want your old job back, and so may want to pursue a claim against your former employers for damages in the civil courts.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
AIUI, employees in the US generally don't have quite so many protections unless they're a member of a protected class and can bring an equal opportunities case.

This will vary according to the employment law of each state and the nature of the employment contract—whether employment is “at will,” for example, or whether through collective bargaining or company policy some protections are in place.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm curious to know what would happen if someone was fired in the UK for an accusation that was false.

I think someone who was sacked simply because an allegation had been made would be able to make a claim for unfair dismissal (disclaimer: IANAL (or at least not practising for nearly 30 years now)). Though an employer might quite reasonably suspend them.

If an employer carried out a proper investigation leading them reasonably to believe, on the balance of probabilities that the allegation was true, then the person could be sacked.

There would then be the possibility that the Crown Prosecution Service might feel that the case was not good enough to put before the court to obtain a conviction on the basis of proof beyond reasonable doubt, or the person might go to trial and be found not guilty because the evidence was not deemed strong enough on that basis to convict.

The situation would be that they had been found in court to be not guilty of the offence in court beyond reasonable doubt, but guilty on the balance of probabilities by their employer of behaviour which justified dismissal. That is the potential consequence of two different standards of proof.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
AIUI, employees in the US generally don't have quite so many protections unless they're a member of a protected class and can bring an equal opportunities case.

This will vary according to the employment law of each state and the nature of the employment contract—whether employment is “at will,” for example, or whether through collective bargaining or company policy some protections are in place.
This is key I think.

The point was made above that false accusations are possible in any instance where allegations are made, regardless of crime. There is no way around that-- it is a logical and unavoidable consequence. The key, then, is to have a process to rectify the situation when the accusation is false.

When criminal allegations are made, there is such a system-- you have your day in court (acknowledging there are huge inequities there that need to be addressed), and if acquitted, can make that known.

The problem is when there is no parallel system for employment. I would expect the issue of false allegations is somewhat less problematic in places where there are strong labor laws that allow for suing for unjust termination. This would protect the falsely accused employee from being hastily dismissed for PR reasons without a full investigation. Just as the ability to bring a sexual harassment suit against your employer as well as the harasser helps to guard against hostile work environments-- having both in place would be a strong inducement to employers to have a robust, fair, transparent, and effective system for reporting, investigating, and responding to sexual harassment claims. When only one side of the equation exists, abuse is inevitable.

Beyond these two there is the inevitable "trial by media" of course. Not much we can do about that, I'm afraid-- people will form opinions, it's the way we're wired, asking people to hold off until an investigation is complete is an exercise in futility. But at least if the other two avenues were available and effective, both the falsely accused and the truly victimized would have the opportunity to publicize the results.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

The point was made above that false accusations are possible in any instance where allegations are made, regardless of crime. There is no way around that-- it is a logical and unavoidable consequence. The key, then, is to have a process to rectify the situation when the accusation is false.

True or false is not the standard by which these things are judged. Credibility is the standard and this has always been problematic.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm curious to know what would happen if someone was fired in the UK for an accusation that was false. I'd guess that they could try taking it to a tribunal to claim unfair dismissal, but I'm not sure what standard of proof is required.

I'm not sure what happens if a fired employee goes to an employment tribunal saying that they don't believe that the employer had any proof or basis for firing them.

And what happens in the Geoffrey Rush case, to which Orfeo and I have referred? As an actor seeking new roles, what tribunal can say that he's been unjustly not chosen for a role because of this unspecified and anonymous assertion and is therefore entitled to compensation by the theatre?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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