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Source: (consider it) Thread: Mary Magdalene
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
In the US, AIUI, sex workers wind up in that work because they're trafficked (bought, deceived, threatened (e.g., school girls, because their families are threatened) etc.)); desperate for money (survival, college); survivors of childhood sexual abuse (acting out, because they were already treated like sex workers, or running away from the abuser), etc.

Again, this is true in many, many cases. As a blanket statement, however, it is not accurate.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Was the demonic possession Mary Magdalene suffered before encountering Jesus linked to mental illness or seizures as has been conjectured with other possessed people healed in the gospels? Or did it have something to do with having been possessed by demons for having gone down an evil path?

That's a popular idea amongst charismatics these days, or at least it was when I was one. There was always lots of talk about giving demons a "foothold" or "permission" by engaging in disapproved of behaviours (fantasy RPGs, Yoga, anything "occult") but the Bible is pretty silent on how demonic possession, whatever it might be, actually occurs.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
In the US, AIUI, sex workers wind up in that work because they're trafficked (bought, deceived, threatened (e.g., school girls, because their families are threatened) etc.)); desperate for money (survival, college); survivors of childhood sexual abuse (acting out, because they were already treated like sex workers, or running away from the abuser), etc.

There may well be some who think it's somehow going to be fun and glamorous. I doubt they think that for long.

FYI: there's a lot of trafficking here in the SF Bay Area.

The majority of sex workers I know/have known have been young men who have gone into that line of work because they enjoy sex and look forward to making the large amounts of money that they can earn from the experience.

That said, I do volunteer work with a local charity supporting queer, homeless, young people and I know that sex work is often something engaged in by homeless young cis men in particular, and also young trans women and men, not primarily because of the money it brings in (although I'm sure they find this useful), but because it often means the difference between sleeping in a bed and sleeping on the street.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
In the US, AIUI, sex workers wind up in that work because they're trafficked (bought, deceived, threatened (e.g., school girls, because their families are threatened) etc.)); desperate for money (survival, college); survivors of childhood sexual abuse (acting out, because they were already treated like sex workers, or running away from the abuser), etc.

Again, this is true in many, many cases. As a blanket statement, however, it is not accurate.
I tried to find some statistics re the sexual abuse piece underlying prostition. This seems to be a popular idea, though the data aren't presented much.

Another popular idea seems to be that prostitution is just a career, you can make a lot of money, have fun etc. I am skeptical of such claims, and also skeptical of the claims that it is the illegality of the activity which has made it troublesome - it isn't illegal in all places, and still the discussion occurs about the social and personal health/mental health issues involved.

Until proved otherwise - probably showing that certain personalities or aptitudes do well as prostitutes and others are not suited to it (lie accountants or engineers may have particular attributes more than a general sample of people) - I am not likely to accept the premise that humans can engage in such activities without effects on their psychology and social relationships. (There are moral arguments and positions I;m leaving out just now)

The term "cis" is used above in one of the posts above. I presume this refers to something about same-gender sexual oriented; I am not in a position to look up words in the internet just now. Is it a term that means something else? I'd prefer to avoid jargon if it's possible.

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Jengie jon

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Not sure this is of any use but I found some Prostitution Statistics. I would like more detail of where each was obtained as they are clearly collated (i.e. gathered from multiple sources) but it does not appear to be by a pressure group.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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Dark Knight

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no prophet - the fact that you don't know what a word means does not make it "jargon" [Roll Eyes]

Cisgender refers to someone whose gender identity aligns with their biological sex at birth. It does not refer to sexuality. A cisgender man, for example, would be someone whose birth sex and gender identity align as male, but who may also identify as gay, bi, asexual or something else.

This is very common language in gender studies, and is becoming part of common parlance. Catch up.

[ 06. December 2017, 20:44: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]

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Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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The Scrumpmeister
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What Dark Knight said.

It really isn't jargon. It's just commonplace.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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mousethief

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Putting in my unnecessary oar -- "cis" is not jargon, it is a term invented out of necessity. In other words we needed a word to use for a certain phenomenon, so one was coined, ganked from a known Latin prefix (cisalpine, cislunar, cismontane, cispontine, etc.) that is used as an opposite of "trans".

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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stonespring
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The point I think isn't that prostitution is a career just as desirable as any other. It's that many people, often in very difficult situations, do engage in prostitution, and that society and the law should not condemn them for doing so (as for their customers and any pimps, traffickers, or other people who exploit them, that is another question).

The term "sex worker" was coined to recognize that prostitutes perform real work and deserve the rights of other workers - even if society and the law also tries to prevent the economic and societal causes that lead people to become sex workers, help sex workers to transition into other careers, and crack down on all sexual slavery and child prostitution.

Some people believe that if a person can make a decent living in safe conditions as a sex worker, government should not try to persuade them to leave that line of work, whereas others believe that government should try to encourage people to leave sex work. Both kinds of people use the term sex worker to respect human dignity and help fight a stigma that often follows a sex worker long after they stop that line of work.

How ironic that in a post about how Mary Magdalene should not be portrayed as a prostitute, we wind up talking mainly about prostitution.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
What Dark Knight said.

It really isn't jargon. It's just commonplace.

I have encountered this term only here. Last I checked this isn't a gender studies department.

[ 06. December 2017, 23:05: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
What Dark Knight said.

It really isn't jargon. It's just commonplace.

Putting on my formerly-paid-to-write hat, the term is commonplace among some circles; in most circles, it is jargon. I think one can argue it is transitioning, but at this point I would hold to the Talking Points rule (i.e., if it needs explaining for any part of a general audience, don't use it) and avoid it outside specialist settings (such as a bulletin board).
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Dark Knight

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Put on whatever hat you like, and read mousethief's post again. Not only is it not jargon, it is a necessary expression.

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
What Dark Knight said.

It really isn't jargon. It's just commonplace.

I have encountered this term only here. Last I checked this isn't a gender studies department.
I've heard "cis" occasionally. My understanding was that it basically refers to someone who generally conforms to what's expected of their gender, and isn't LGBTQ.

I saw a more concise definition upthread. Thx.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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Gramps49
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Growing up in the 60's, I remember the TV show Gunsmoke. It actually was a radio program from the 40's. I remember the saloon owner was Kate. It was pretty clear that Kate was a Madam of a Brothel. The TV stage showed stairs leading up to the bedrooms over the bar. While it was never said on screen, the implications were there.

Fact is. Prostitution helped the settle the Western United States. See this video.

There is an old mining town about 100 miles from where I live. Wallace, ID. Prostitution was still legal there in the early 1980's.

And if you ever go through Nevada, they still have legalized brothels.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Put on whatever hat you like, and read mousethief's post again. Not only is it not jargon, it is a necessary expression.

I suppose that you and I will continue to differ on this, but perhaps I should explain my position.

I had read mousethief's post (twice, actually, and the second time with care) before posting. Using a definition of "Potentially confusing words and phrases used in an occupation, trade, or field of study," I see that it still fits. Jargon is not a pejorative term; that cis- is perhaps a necessary or useful expression does not mean that it is not specialized language.

If I were preparing speaking points for public use, or speech notes, I would avoid it, even if it would be easily understood in my circle of friends. I took the occasion to refer the question to a professional speechwriter of my acquaintance-- he said that it fails the bar bar which, he explained, is that the term would not be understood in most bars, although the concept would be. He would, however, put it in a speech to academics or legal specialists, as it is part of their common language.

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Dark Knight

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Right. How would you avoid it?

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Putting on my formerly-paid-to-write hat, the term is commonplace among some circles; in most circles, it is jargon. I think one can argue it is transitioning, but at this point I would hold to the Talking Points rule (i.e., if it needs explaining for any part of a general audience, don't use it) and avoid it outside specialist settings (such as a bulletin board).

Wearing my still-paid-to-write hat, I agree. Most people outside certain academic and political circles are going to look at "cis" and say, "What?!?" I certainly couldn't use it in a daily newspaper without devoting a graf to its meaning and etomology.

As sympathetic as I am to trans people, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of the population is not trans. Therefore, I don't think we need a special prefix for what is (conservatively) 95% of the people. (Your mileage may vary.)

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I'm not dead yet.

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Dark Knight

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Certainly not. Unless we are keen not to enforce heteronormativity.

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Right. How would you avoid it?

If preparing remarks to be made in public, I would refer to the importance of diversity and how we should respect how individuals freely choose their identities. Having established that as a principle in our discourse, I would then get into specifics, as relevant.
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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I would then get into specifics, as relevant.

They are relevant here. Go ahead. How would you avoid using this language, without inferring that one is "normal" and one is a deviation from the norm, as Rossweise has (I hope inadvertently) done?

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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"Heteronormal" is also jargon but the form of the term allows decoding and at least presumption of meaning. Though the context is important. I might think it refers to sexual orientation or gender identity depending on circumstance.
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Dark Knight

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As a fairly common term has now been clearly explained to you, perhaps you won't have to guess about its meaning anymore.

Seriously, are we done here?

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I would then get into specifics, as relevant.

They are relevant here. Go ahead. How would you avoid using this language, without inferring that one is "normal" and one is a deviation from the norm, as Rossweise has (I hope inadvertently) done?
Depends entirely on the situation and the subject matter. The only time I could think of having to do so (aside from chairing meetings of people from other offices and having to give them information on the washrooms- e.g., down the corridor there are two washrooms, one indicated for those who identify as male, another for those who identify as women, and a third around the corner which can be used by persons who do not, or who are in wheelchairs) would be in discussions around benefits. In that situation, I would outline that sex or gender is not relevant to eligibility, and that gender choice is up to the individual. Or, perhaps, that proposed changes to the Indian Act will remove any need to identify as male or female in forms.

When running meetings, I have to be conscious that a third to two-thirds of participants do not have English as their first language and that many will have done their degrees in French or other other languages. Plain language, where terms do not need deconstruction, is essential.

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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Are you taking the piss?

The subject matter is this thread. This is not about some hypothetical event.

How would you, in the context in which cisgender came up in this thread, explain the idea it conveys?

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Are you taking the piss?

The subject matter is this thread. This is not about some hypothetical event.

How would you, in the context in which cisgender came up in this thread, explain the idea it conveys?

Dark Knight- your language suggests that you may wish to take this to Hell. I am no longer convinced you want a dialogue on this.
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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Are you taking the piss?

The subject matter is this thread. This is not about some hypothetical event.

How would you, in the context in which cisgender came up in this thread, explain the idea it conveys?

Actually the word that came up in this thread and raised the initial query was not 'cisgender' but 'cis'. I'm very familiar with 'cis' as a prefix - including in cisgender. I also believe it has a meaning in chemistry. Like no prophet, I don't think I've ever come across it used as a word on its own. Unlike no prophet I was in a position to look the word up online.
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Bishops Finger
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I had to resort to Google to find out what 'cis' and/or 'cisgender' meant (and also how to pronounce it - I gather it's 'sis').

Fairy nuff - now I know. But please, peeps, do bear in mind that, for many of us (especially of an older generation), this whole gender definition thing is summink rather new....and it's not always that easy to understand the various terms used.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Kwesi
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'cis', i understand, is latin for 'this side of'. Cisalpine Gaul, for example, was Gaul on the Roman side of the alps. What I'd like to know is what is this side of gender or sex as against the otherside of the same. Maybe it's both sides of the same coin, or does it depend on which side you are in the first place? Or maybe just a cissy- No offence! No Offence! Anyway, Mary Magdalene, I guess, was cisalpine but not a Gaul. How that affected her sex/gender identity I know not.
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HCH
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I think the flap about "cis" is a side issue. There are always new words coming along and we often need to learn them. (I am still irritated by the use of "proactive" but I will get over it.)

We could have a separate (and interesting) thread about the development and introduction of new vocabulary.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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cis- is a prefix, not a word. Those who work in fields where it is used regularly (such as chemistry and gender studies) are likely to use it as if it were, but they are usually talking to those who understand what they are on about.

Kwesi wrote:
quote:
What I'd like to know is what is this side of gender or sex as against the otherside of the same. Maybe it's both sides of the same coin, or does it depend on which side you are in the first place?
It's really only used in connection with one's gender "being on the same side" as one's sex. As opposed to trans- referring to being a person whose gender is "across from" the biological sex they were born with. It's a bit clunky but I'm not aware of a more elegant alternative.

(I'm referring to the original Latin mening of the prefixes. It works better in chemistry!)

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Are you taking the piss?

The subject matter is this thread. This is not about some hypothetical event.

How would you, in the context in which cisgender came up in this thread, explain the idea it conveys?

Dark Knight- your language suggests that you may wish to take this to Hell. I am no longer convinced you want a dialogue on this.
If you want to call me to Hell, go ahead. If the hosts are unhappy with the way I am talking here, they will let me know. That isn't your call, anymore than deciding what terms can and can't be used on a bulletin board you aren't hosting is your call.

And you are not engaging in dialogue here. You are avoiding it.

Bishop's Finger - I don't see your issue. I provided a very clear definition upthread.

As someone else has suggested, this cisgender business (and that was clearly what the shorthand prefix use was in reference to) is a detour from the main point of the thread. So I won't derail this further. Mary Magdalene deserves her own thread.

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Bishops Finger
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I don't have an issue - I merely pointed out that much of the current discussion on gender issues is something of which I personally don't have a lot of knowledge or experience. I think the same may well apply to others.

Point taken about your previous post, which I must have missed.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
They are relevant here. Go ahead. How would you avoid using this language, without inferring that one is "normal" and one is a deviation from the norm, as Rossweise has (I hope inadvertently) done?

Well, it was inadvertent, but I'm going to stick with it. Saying that one thing is normal is not at all the same as declaring that something else is wrong.

Back when I discovered that I could deliver children only via caesarian section, there were people urging that vaginal births not be referred to as "normal," for fear of making people like me feel bad. But that never bothered me; vaginal births are normal. I was just grateful to be alive, with a healthy baby. And I am glad that my transgender colleagues and acquaintances now live in a time and place where they can be themselves.

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 14756 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Scrumpmeister
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# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
cis- is a prefix, not a word.

In origin, yes, that is true. However, it is also a common abbreviation for the word cisgender, in much the same way that trans, as well as being a prefix with many applications, is also a commonly-used abbreviation for transgender.

quote:
Those who work in fields where it is used regularly (such as chemistry and gender studies) are likely to use it as if it were, but they are usually talking to those who understand what they are on about.
I'm sure that's the case, but both of those contexts are alien to my experience. I have no background in chemistry or gender studies, and would likely be out of my depth in either or both.

This is simply an everyday word that is used among my friends and peers, pops up in blog posts that I read, and appears regularly in my Facebook feed, among other places. It really isn't the great mystery that is has been portrayed here to be, and until catching up just now on the unfolding exchange above, it never even occurred to me that my using it above in passing might be anything remarkable, with the exception that I am aware that some people object to its use on the ground that Rosseweisse has posited above.

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
What Dark Knight said.

It really isn't jargon. It's just commonplace.

Putting on my formerly-paid-to-write hat, the term is commonplace among some circles; in most circles, it is jargon. I think one can argue it is transitioning, but at this point I would hold to the Talking Points rule (i.e., if it needs explaining for any part of a general audience, don't use it) and avoid it outside specialist settings (such as a bulletin board).
Last Sunday I sang at an Advent carol service in the local Catholic cathedral. It was with a small choir that was formed independently by some members of a larger choral society to which I belong. They sing for this service every year but they were short of a tenor this year and they asked me to help, which I was happy to do.

Most of the members of this choir are lifelong Catholics - many of them heavily involved in the worship in their parishes - and none of them knew the final hymn in the service. It was Lo, He comes With Clouds Descending, and a number of them expressed upset that the service closed with a virtually unknown hymn that they had to sight-read off the cuff.

I have long been aware that Methodists, Catholics, Anglicans, &c. will have their own general repertoire of hymns within certain regions of the world, and that a hymn being included by the editors of the hymnals of a given church doesn't necessarily mean that regular churchgoers will know it or have ever heard of it.

Despite this awareness, as somebody raised Anglican, I was still completely flummoxed by the notion of Lo, He Comes... being described as something obscure and unknown.

I am experiencing a similar feeling while reading this thread. I am not denying that cisgender and its usual abbreviation may be new words in some readers' vocabulary, but some of the reaction here still comes as a surprise to me.

In my experience, it is not a specialist term used exclusively or predominantly in a particular field of study or work (which is my understanding of jargon) but rather is just an everyday word that people use, so I used it here without a second thought. I don't see what else I could have said to convey my intended meaning that wouldn't have been unnecessarily wordy and tedious.

I suppose this is a reminder for all of us that our perceptions of normal - even touching on something like the use of language - are very much coloured by our own experiences and expectations, and that others may perceive our normal as strange and vice versa, based on their own experiences.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

Posts: 14696 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Well said, Scrumpmeister. [Overused]

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Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2882 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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My initial reaction, the one which seems to given impetus to this thread, was merely one of non-comprehension. The thread seems to have devolved to the comprehensibility of terms and when we should be patient with each other when we don't share the lingo.


On the other issue, the use of the terms, I've had a bit of a think about cis and cisgender, and I can see where the idea about the words is coming from. No real quarrel with the idea behind the words. But I'm not sure they'll stick, mainly because the group they describe probably won't agree to adopt them. It is the normative (most statistically frequent or most frequently encountered) which is the basis of comparison for most things we conceptualize, which I don't know that we can blame individuals for, I think it's human nature. I am equally unlikely to describe my Christianity as non-atheist or using another word to reference nonbelief first rather than second.

[ 08. December 2017, 02:30: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

Posts: 11181 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I've had a bit of a think about cis and cisgender, and I can see where the idea about the words is coming from. No real quarrel with the idea behind the words. But I'm not sure they'll stick, mainly because the group they describe probably won't agree to adopt them.

Non-gay people seem generally comfortable with describing themselves as "straight" if asked. Expecting "cis" to be similarly adopted doesn't seem too far-fetched.
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BroJames
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# 9636

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I think transgender and cisgender describe something different from straight and gay. Straight and gay (and bi(sexual)) are about sexual orientation. Cisgender/transgender is (in simple terms) about what gender a person feels/believes themself to be rather than about who they are attracted to.
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Eirenist
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# 13343

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How does any of this really matter?

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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

Posts: 452 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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It's a tangent. They happen when something peripheral needs clarifying, Eirenist.

But yes... Mary Magdalene...

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Anglo-Cthulhic

Posts: 4809 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
How does any of this really matter?

It matters because we are discussing it. This is a discussion board. No one is forcing you to read it.

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Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2882 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged



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