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Source: (consider it) Thread: Jerusalem as Israel's capital: what's the view where you live?
Eutychus
From the edge
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On the Trump thread, I asked this about Trump's declaration of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel:
quote:
Reading another board suggests that in the US a) this move is not simply being supported by con-evos b) outside these boards, support by Americans for this move appears to be the default opinion. Am I completely wrong about this?
Belatedly I realise this question is not about Trump.

It's not really about rehashing the Israel/Palestine question, either (although that inevitably comes into it). It's about how this question can be perceived differently in different countries.

Am I wrong that the default opinion in the US - not just along partisan or religious lines - is that Jerusalem should be recognised as Israel's capital?

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mr cheesy
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According to this poll, 56% of people in the USA who were asked don't know.

24% agreed, 20% disagreed.

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arse

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Golden Key
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Speaking as an American who grew up fundamentalist:

I doubt that most Americans know or care much. Fund/evos may want end-times things to move along, and figure that would help.

I'm not quite sure of Jerusalem's exact legal status. I see that Wikipedia says it's the capital, but "internationally unrecognized". But why rock the boat right now?

I've sometimes thought maybe it could be made into some sort of international and sacred capital, given that it's sacred to at least three religions. Make it a holy place where *everyone* is welcome.

Unlikely.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:


I'm not quite sure of Jerusalem's exact legal status. I see that Wikipedia says it's the capital, but "internationally unrecognized". But why rock the boat right now?

The consensus at the UN is that East Jerusalem is illegally occupied land.

West Jerusalem is not normally mentioned in the same breath - the implication being that it is accepted by the international community as being part of Israel.

Of course, Israel believes that Jerusalem is an indivisible, unbreakable eternal city.

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

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The majority of Israeli government buildings; the Knesset, many ministries, the supreme court; are in West Jerusalem. So, West Jerusalem functions as the capital of Israel.

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Golden Key
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Thanks for the info.

I've known most of this stuff, at various times. But I wind up with compassion fatigue, and complicated situation fatigue, and "are they* crazy?" fatigue, and "THOSE guys--again???" fatigue.

*They = Palestinians, Israelis, and all the other usual suspects--but mostly the first two.

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stonespring
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I wouldn't be surprised if most Americans didn't know that Jerusalem is not internationally recognized as Israel's capital. If they were told that it was not recognized as such, most of them probably also would probably not know the reasons why (the 1948 vs the 1967 borders, East vs West Jerusalem, Israel's capital being Tel Aviv before 1967, the unsettled status of the borders of a future Palestinian State or the location of its capital, etc.). They may know a little bit about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and Israeli Settlements and the Wall, but probably have assumed all this time that Jerusalem was always the capital of Israel since its founding and internationally recognized as such.

So most Americans polled would probably just say, "Huh, that's odd that the US doesn't officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. I suppose we should."

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:


I'm not quite sure of Jerusalem's exact legal status. I see that Wikipedia says it's the capital, but "internationally unrecognized". But why rock the boat right now?

The consensus at the UN is that East Jerusalem is illegally occupied land.

West Jerusalem is not normally mentioned in the same breath - the implication being that it is accepted by the international community as being part of Israel.

Of course, Israel believes that Jerusalem is an indivisible, unbreakable eternal city.

As part of the creation of Israel in 1948 Jerusalem was partitioned. "East Jerusalem" was in what was supposed to be Palestine. Israel has controlled East Jerusalem since the 1967 war and, unlike other nominally Palestinian territories controlled by Israel, the Israelis consider East Jerusalem to be annexed rather than occupied. This is an important distinction in international law. So far most other nations don't officially recognize this annexation. The Palestinian Authority still considers East Jerusalem to be the capital of Palestine, complicating matters further.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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The general feeling is that trumpy is doing distracting things because of the Russian probe and needing to deflect from that. What is also discussed is that this surely will result in violence and probably trumpy wants a terror incident like Bush's people prayed for in their Project for a New American Century in 1997: praying for a Pearl Harbor attack to galvanize the public and garner support, which of course he got in the 11 Sept attacks.

Perhaps it is outlandish, but I will bet they are talking about wanting some Big Distracting Attack. It is either that, or trumpy goes the way of Nixon, right?

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Eutychus
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Per the OP, what do Canadians generally think about where the capital of Israel is, NP, and does the opinion divide along party and/or religious lines?

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Og, King of Bashan

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I do think that the fact that Trump is behind it is probably driving some of the negative reaction. My impression is that the pro-Jerusalem tent is a pretty broad and motley gathering, consisting of an odd collection of rapture-ready Christians, anti-Muslim or Iran hawks, and Orthodox and left-of-center Democrat voting Conservative Jews, many of whom voted for Clinton. (If you doubt that that last group exists, consider that Chuck Schumer has been backing this for years, and many Democrats have sponsored a bill to limit government association with groups and individuals who actively support boycott / divest.)

You also have a number of younger Reformed (and probably Conservative) Jewish folks who sympathize with Palestine and oppose this move- even folks who really value having the Law of Return as a back-up plan if things where they live ever get bad. So it's a muddled coalition on either side.

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Per the OP, what do Canadians generally think about where the capital of Israel is, NP, and does the opinion divide along party and/or religious lines?

Interesting you ask that, because in the 1979 election, the Tory leader Joe Clark promised to move our embassy to Jerusalem, and made that the first promise he tried to keep after being elected.

But there was a bit of an outcry, and he ended up backing off. I was only about ten at the time, and I'm not sure how populist the outcry was, or if it was just confined to the kind of people who spend a lot of time pondering and discussing the Middle East.

In any case, I would think that, if a Canadian PM proposed the same thing again, you'd say a repeat of the same backlash as in '79, whatever that was. So by extension, people are probably against Trump doing it, if only because the opinion-makers generally seem to think it's a bad idea.

[ 06. December 2017, 15:57: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Stetson
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^ As for "party and religious lines", I would think that most politicians in the major political parties take a pragmatic, realpolitik line, eg. Isreal has a right to exist, their de facto capital is Jerusalem, but we shouldn't go whole-hog and discount Palestinian claims by moving our embassy there.

On the far right of the Conservative Party you would have US-style Christian Zionists who think we should just dive right in to the Jerusalem Is Only For Israel thing, and on the far left of the NDP, people who think we should withdraw any recognition of Israel, at least until the Palestinian issue is solved.

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stonespring
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Sorry about the error in my earlier post. Jerusalem has been Israel's capital since its founding, although government institutions were in Tel Aviv for a time in its very early history. But all main government institutions except for the Ministry of Defense have been based in Jerusalem since well before the 1967 war.
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

In any case, I would think that, if a Canadian PM proposed the same thing again, you'd say a repeat of the same backlash as in '79, whatever that was. So by extension, people are probably against Trump doing it, if only because the opinion-makers generally seem to think it's a bad idea.

Absolutely nothing that has happened in the US in the last 11 months suggests that the populace as a whole is impressed by what opinion-makers generally seem to think is a bad idea.

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Ricardus
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FWIW I wasn't aware that states recognising other states' cities as capital cities was even a thing. [Hot and Hormonal]

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Per the OP, what do Canadians generally think about where the capital of Israel is, NP, and does the opinion divide along party and/or religious lines?

If I recall correctly, a prior Prime Minister (Joe Clark I think, about 1979 or 80) floated the idea of moving the Cdn embassy to Jerusalem and rapidly backtracked - a really bad idea. Although that is a long time ago, I think Canadians as a whole have probably moved further toward a more equal understanding of the 2 parties (okay there are more than that), I mean Israelis and Palestinians, and that we should try to stay mostly neutral and not take a side.

While it isn't universal here, the multi-cultural perspective is pretty strong: try to not take sides, and leave as is. I have heard no-one say that moving the USA embassy is a good plan. I have some say that trumpy is trolling for another fish so he can focus on something good for him versus something bad for him, as noted above. I am personally in favour of not throwing gasoline on the fire. Leave things as they are.

[ 06. December 2017, 18:22: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Schroedinger's cat

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The UK has not, as far as I have seen, commented formally, but then we don't really have a functioning government at the moment.

This is provocative. It is wrong, and it will trash peace in the middle east. People will die as a result of this, and it will set back progress in Israel by decades.

Impeach the incompetent shit.

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HCH
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The various reactions to this decision make me think working in the US Embassy in Jerusalem may turn out to be more dangerous than in Tel Aviv. I don't claim to know much about the matter.

I don't see why the U.S. should have any position at all about which city is the capitol of another country. How are we involved? Certainly, Israel is regarded as a strategic partner of the U.S. in the region, but how does that involve us in their internal politics?

A side issue: As I understand it, in Old Testament times, the country was divided into the north and south kingdoms, and Jerusalem was the capitol of only one of the two. If Jerusalem is now regarded as the capitol of the entire country, does this represent a victory of south over north?

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

In any case, I would think that, if a Canadian PM proposed the same thing again, you'd say a repeat of the same backlash as in '79, whatever that was. So by extension, people are probably against Trump doing it, if only because the opinion-makers generally seem to think it's a bad idea.

Absolutely nothing that has happened in the US in the last 11 months suggests that the populace as a whole is impressed by what opinion-makers generally seem to think is a bad idea.
Just to be clear, I was referring to the Canadian reaction to Trump's plan, not the American reaction.
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Stetson
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HCH:

quote:
I don't see why the U.S. should have any position at all about which city is the capitol of another country. How are we involved?
Well, at the very least, you have to have an embassy in the country. And if you recognize one particular city as the capital, the next logical step is to out your embassy there. Otherwise, the people who support that city being the capital will think that you're recogniztion isn't worth anything.

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Stetson
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No Prophet wrote:

quote:
If I recall correctly, a prior Prime Minister (Joe Clark I think, about 1979 or 80) floated the idea of moving the Cdn embassy to Jerusalem and rapidly backtracked - a really bad idea.
Well, he did a bit more than float the idea. It was an actual campaign promise, and like I said, the first one he attempted to fulfill. You're correct that the backtrack kicked in pretty quickly.

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Alan Cresswell

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The location of an embassy shouldn't necessarily reflect views on the legitimacy of a claim to a particular city being the capital. It could simply be convenience. It's normal to want your ambassador to have easy access to members of the government of your host country, that usually means an embassy in the city where that government operates.

So, since the main Israeli government buildings are in West Jerusalem having an embassy in West Jerusalem has something going for it. Of course, these days security is also an issue and it may be safer to have the embassy somewhere else. Tel Aviv is probably as secure as anywhere.

A compromise could be a consulate in West Jerusalem, with the ambassador visiting regularly.

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I don't see why the U.S. should have any position at all about which city is the capitol of another country. How are we involved? Certainly, Israel is regarded as a strategic partner of the U.S. in the region, but how does that involve us in their internal politics?

One of the key issues is that Trump is declaring Jerusalem the "undivided" capital of Israel- that's not just a statement of the fact that the Israeli government has all of its offices in the city, it is a declaration that all of Jerusalem, even parts that were not originally partitioned off to Israel and used to be part of Jordan, are now part of Israel. So it legitimizes territorial claims that are hotly disputed.

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Golden Key
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Misc. comments--

--From what I heard on NPR today (mostly just after T's speech), there's already a US consulate in Jerusalem. Don't know which part.

--Re why what the US says about Israel's internal politics matters:

Rightly or wrongly, and painting with a very broad brush, the US protects Israel. You might think of it as a picked-on kid keeping a big kid on hand to scare away the bullies. Though this particular picked-on kid is far from helpless, ISTM.

I *think* the US has sometimes held Israel back, a little, from some of the more catastrophic things it's talked about doing.

--A commentator on NPR today said that end-times stuff is a big factor in Evangelical support. Not just my opinion, then. [Biased]

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The location of an embassy shouldn't necessarily reflect views on the legitimacy of a claim to a particular city being the capital. It could simply be convenience. It's normal to want your ambassador to have easy access to members of the government of your host country, that usually means an embassy in the city where that government operates.

So, since the main Israeli government buildings are in West Jerusalem having an embassy in West Jerusalem has something going for it. Of course, these days security is also an issue and it may be safer to have the embassy somewhere else. Tel Aviv is probably as secure as anywhere.

A compromise could be a consulate in West Jerusalem, with the ambassador visiting regularly.

Er, no. There is a whole bunch of protocol involved in this.

Charles de Gaulle made a tour of Québec in 1967, he arrived in Canada aboard a French Navy cruiser at Québec City. The Citdadelle provided the customary 21 gun salute, but the French ship did not respond with seven volleys, as protocol requires. It was a bad omen.

De Gaulle proceeded to Montréal where he utter his infamous "Vivre le QUébec libre" line on the balcony of Montréal's City Hall. He was promptly asked to leave the country.

Ever since Canada has insisted that all visiting heads of state set foot in Ottawa first before going anywhere else.

So yes, there are a myriad of insults that can be dreamt up with with capitals, embassies and heads of state.

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Golden Key
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Ricardus--

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
FWIW I wasn't aware that states recognising other states' cities as capital cities was even a thing. [Hot and Hormonal]

I don't think it happens often. Usually, the problem is recognizing a country, perhaps after a revolution. And what to call it--like Burma becoming Myanmar.

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Gramps49
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Technically, the US Congress passed a law that declared Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel and directed the president to move the embassy there in 1995. It did give the presidents an out, by allowing the president to sign a waiver allowing the embassy to stay in Tel Aviv.

This president just decided not to sign the waiver.

But the chances are it will take longer than four years for the embassy to actually move to Jerusalem. I think if the Democrats win in 2020 the move will be canceled.

Personally, I am against it. We will regret it if it goes through.

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Golden Key
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Yes, I was surprised to hear about the waiver today. I didn't remember T's campaign promises, so I wondered if maybe he actually *looked* at the waiver when it was given to him to sign, and asked "What's this?"

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Anglican_Brat
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Jerusalem is a beautiful city, precious to three faiths, there is an ancient magic to East Jerusalem I had in the short period I was there.

The decision made by the current occupant in the White House will bring more pain, and hardship to the beloved City.

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
From what I heard on NPR today (mostly just after T's speech), there's already a US consulate in Jerusalem. Don't know which part.

An old Reformed Jewish friend posted a handful of links this afternoon from Jewish authors and organizations against the move (apparently only 15% of American Jews are actually for it).

This one, from a Reformed rabbi living in Jerusalem, is an entertaining look at the dividing line between East and West Jerusalem, and why moving the embassy would be an explicit endorsement of controversial Israeli land claims.

Apparently the new consulate is actually located directly on the old green line that the Palestinians consider to be the last legal border. So it would actually be, in some eyes, a land grab on its own.

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Stetson
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SPK wrote:

quote:
Charles de Gaulle made a tour of Québec in 1967, he arrived in Canada aboard a French Navy cruiser at Québec City. The Citdadelle provided the customary 21 gun salute, but the French ship did not respond with seven volleys, as protocol requires. It was a bad omen.

De Gaulle proceeded to Montréal where he utter his infamous "Vivre le QUébec libre" line on the balcony of Montréal's City Hall. He was promptly asked to leave the country.

Ever since Canada has insisted that all visiting heads of state set foot in Ottawa first before going anywhere else.

Which might explain Mitterand's Vive Le Canada speech to Parliament in 1987.

(Well, that and he probably didn't want Quebec hitting him up for cash in the event of their declaring independence with neither Canada nor Wall Street having any interest in financing their national project.)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:


--From what I heard on NPR today (mostly just after T's speech), there's already a US consulate in Jerusalem. Don't know which part.

It's in East Jerusalem.

The British and the Americans have had consul-general in Jerusalem since the 1840s. I'm not sure about other countries.

As far as I could understand from the British C-G when I went there, the building is long established and British owned since long before the creation of the state of Israel. I don't know about the USA's C-G, but I suspect it might be a similar situation.

So basically there is a diplomatic zone in East Jerusalem with diplomatic missions to the Palestinans. They are there to promote British/US interests in the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem. If you have some issue or business interest within the area of that covered by the Palestinian Authority, or in East Jerusalem, you need to speak to the staff in East Jerusalem - it is more-or-less an embassy in all but name, and the chief is a diplomat of Ambassador level - even though the job is not given that designation.

Because, y'know, political sensitivities.

There is a paper-wall between the operations of the C-G in East Jerusalem and the Embassy in Tel Aviv. Up to now, the British C-G (for example) has had a direct line to London and not via the Embassy in Tel Aviv.

Were Trump to upgrade the East Jerusalem C-G to become an Embassy to Israel, there would be serious ramifications for everyone. I can't really imagine that this is on the agenda, so presumably there will be some nonsense of having two diplomatic missions on either side of the invisible line in Jerusalem.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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Oh yeah - also, they're a visa issuing operation. So if you're Palestinian with a Palestinian passport (or a resident-of-Jerusalem without a nationality, of which there are a large number), you're supposed to apply for travel permission in East Jerusalem.

Which is interesting, given that large numbers of Palestinians in the West Bank, never mind Gaza, can't get to East Jerusalem.

It's easier for many West Bank Palestinians to get to Amman in Jordan than to get to E-J, so in practice most travel actually goes from there.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:


I *think* the US has sometimes held Israel back, a little, from some of the more catastrophic things it's talked about doing.

I more than *think* this. The USA donates a lot of funds to Israel and has acted many times to prevent the most rabid actions of the Israeli hard-cases who have the ear of Bibi's government.

It is possible to lay some of the blame for the situation at the door of the USA, of course. But I think it is fairly obvious which direction the situation would have taken had the USA (and to a lesser extent the EU, UK and others) not stood in the way.

I also think the reverse is true. Had the USA not been able to force participants to the table (usually by threatening to withdraw funds and donations), the Israeli state would have been crushed.

It is an uncomfortable diplomatic position to be in. The presence is, to some extent, encouraging the Israeli sense of being an expanding settler state expanding into the wilds. And the US's lack of will to make statements about settlement building is taken as a tacit support of the project. At the same time, it is certainly able to more-or-less ensure that the status quo continues.

Upsetting that balance by obviously tilting the seesaw towards Israel is madness.

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arse

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betjemaniac
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# 17618

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And what to call it--like Burma becoming Myanmar.

for a long time (all of my life until recently certainly) the British govt and indeed the BBC referred to it as Burma, because the change to Myanmar had been done by what was regarded as an illegitimate regime which therefore did not (and could not) have the legal competency to have changed the name of the country.

Recently, since limited "democratic" reforms, it's all been "Myanmar" without (AFAIK) any new legislation having gone through the Burmese parliament.

Tricky stuff, language.

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And is it true? For if it is....

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stonespring
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# 15530

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I have long known about the eschatological reasons why many Christian Zionists support actions like Trump's but after 9-11 and all the anti-Muslim fervor that has spread among some Christian Conservatives in the US, is it possible at all that some are happy to see implicit US support for Israeli claims to East Jerusalem and elsewhere because it make sure that more of the Holy Land is NOT controlled by Muslims?
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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I have long known about the eschatological reasons why many Christian Zionists support actions like Trump's but after 9-11 and all the anti-Muslim fervor that has spread among some Christian Conservatives in the US, is it possible at all that some are happy to see implicit US support for Israeli claims to East Jerusalem and elsewhere because it make sure that more of the Holy Land is NOT controlled by Muslims?

I think possibly the reverse is true: some seem intent on provoking Armageddon.

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arse

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
East Jerusalem and elsewhere because it make sure that more of the Holy Land is NOT controlled by Muslims?

I think some are of the mindset that anything that pisses off the Muslims must be a good thing - certainly if I look on some of the comments on social media.
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la vie en rouge
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OTOH, and to get back to national attitudes, the reason the French government is très unhappy is that a large plank of French foreign policy can be summed up as Don’t Piss Off the Arabs™.

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I have long known about the eschatological reasons why many Christian Zionists support actions like Trump's but after 9-11 and all the anti-Muslim fervor that has spread among some Christian Conservatives in the US, is it possible at all that some are happy to see implicit US support for Israeli claims to East Jerusalem and elsewhere because it make sure that more of the Holy Land is NOT controlled by Muslims?

I think possibly the reverse is true: some seem intent on provoking Armageddon.
I think a flow-chart would probably go like this...

Muslims bad for opposing Israel...

Israel good because it fulfills biblical prophecies about Jews...

Jews good if they convert to Christianity before the Second Coming...

Jews bad, and I mean, REALLY bad, like burning-in hell-covered-with-maggots-forever bad, if they don't convert before the Second Coming.

So, basically, anti-Islamism, in service of philo-Israelism, which in turn sets the stage for cosmological anti-semitism(since the only saved Jews are the ones who essentially give up being Jewish).

Meanwhile, over in Israel, the Likudniks are laughing their heads off about it. "Hey, you see what they got those bible-thumpers believing about us NOW?! Ha ha! Oh well, whatever keeps the cheques coming in."

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Also, Muslims bad; Arabs bad. Peace bad, war good. Money good, pussy good.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Not sure about that; I see a lot of evangelicals having a sort of "Jews covered under old covenant so don't need to convert" "get out of jail free card" exemption from their otherwise "Accept Jesus or burn forever in Hell" theology.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349

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I wondered last night if Israel earlier this century would have renounced the special privileges granted to its Jewish citizens (notably the Right of Return) and extended full Israeli citizenship to all Palestinians, including those living in the West Bank and Gaza, if this whole mess would have been averted and lives would have been saved.

One striking thing I learned when I was there was from a Palestinian who told me that it's really an issue of fairness and equal civil rights. If Israel granted his people that, he didn't care if the country was named 'Israel' or 'Palestine'.

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Not sure about that; I see a lot of evangelicals having a sort of "Jews covered under old covenant so don't need to convert" "get out of jail free card" exemption from their otherwise "Accept Jesus or burn forever in Hell" theology.

Yeah, I think there are some variations on that among evangelicals. When it comes to premillenial eschatology however, the version I usually hear has Jews who don't convert staying unsaved.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I wondered last night if Israel earlier this century would have renounced the special privileges granted to its Jewish citizens (notably the Right of Return) and extended full Israeli citizenship to all Palestinians, including those living in the West Bank and Gaza, if this whole mess would have been averted and lives would have been saved.

One striking thing I learned when I was there was from a Palestinian who told me that it's really an issue of fairness and equal civil rights. If Israel granted his people that, he didn't care if the country was named 'Israel' or 'Palestine'.

No, Israel can't afford to empower Palestinians, treat them for equal outcomes; fairness. It's a crime for them even to have solar power. The cost in identity would be too high. As it is for all of us.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I wondered last night if Israel earlier this century would have renounced the special privileges granted to its Jewish citizens (notably the Right of Return) and extended full Israeli citizenship to all Palestinians, including those living in the West Bank and Gaza, if this whole mess would have been averted and lives would have been saved.

We wouldn't be in this mess, but I strongly suspect we'd be in a mess. Albeit a different one.

quote:
One striking thing I learned when I was there was from a Palestinian who told me that it's really an issue of fairness and equal civil rights. If Israel granted his people that, he didn't care if the country was named 'Israel' or 'Palestine'.
Yes. I genuinely believe that the majority of Palestinians are now more interested in having-a-life-worth-living rather than asserting a political agenda about nationhood. The reason that they're now talking about the nation is because everything else has failed and they don't have anything else to play with.

But it wasn't always thus. The realisation that their only hope was to assert their rights as human beings has only come along quite late in the game.

[ 07. December 2017, 14:38: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
No, Israel can't afford to empower Palestinians, treat them for equal outcomes; fairness. It's a crime for them even to have solar power. The cost in identity would be too high. As it is for all of us.

Quite a number of Israelis believe that allowing Palestinians anything is going to somehow have negative impacts on them, and that this is a price they're not prepared to pay.

There is too much invested in their militarised society, the only option that makes any sense for them is to keep going with the status quo.

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arse

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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O what a surprise....

[Disappointed]

Nice one, O Avatar of Satan.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I wondered last night if Israel earlier this century would have renounced the special privileges granted to its Jewish citizens (notably the Right of Return) and extended full Israeli citizenship to all Palestinians, including those living in the West Bank and Gaza, if this whole mess would have been averted and lives would have been saved.

This has long been a non-starter for most Israeli governments, particularly right wing Israeli governments. The self-conception of Israel is as a Jewish homeland and Jewish state. They don't mind giving citizenship and rights to some Muslim Arab Palestinians, but they draw the line at anything that would make Israel anything other than a Jewish majority nation. Green Line Israel still has a Jewish majority. Green Line Israel plus the West Bank would also be majority Jewish, but barely. Green Line Israel plus the West Bank and Gaza is pretty close to 50/50 Jewish/non-Jewish, and population growth is going the "wrong" way from an Israeli perspective. The demographics were always against this idea.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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