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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Jerusalem as Israel's capital: what's the view where you live? (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Jerusalem as Israel's capital: what's the view where you live?
rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Also, Muslims bad; Arabs bad. Peace bad, war good. Money good, pussy good.

You forgot 'oil good'

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Bishops Finger
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Never mind.

If it all goes pear-shaped, we Uklanders can do as we usually do, and Send A Gunboat.

[Roll Eyes]

And the bloody thing only cost about three BILLION quid!

[Mad]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Never mind.

If it all goes pear-shaped, we Uklanders can do as we usually do, and Send A Gunboat.

[Roll Eyes]

And the bloody thing only cost about three BILLION quid!

[Mad]

IJ

Still. We don't have much of a space programme, so at least we won't be looking for salvation on the moon. That's something.

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arse

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quetzalcoatl
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Meanwhile, somewhere in the Middle East, in a dusty house down a quiet street, surviving cadres of IS are meeting to discuss recent defeats. The mood is sombre - recruitment has been falling, financial subventions also. But another member enters the room, and switches on the TV, where a giant orange moon is visible. It speaks - about Jerusalem.

The mood in the room begins to change. A way forward in terms of recruitment and financial donations becomes clearer; plans can be drawn up to invite new members in various countries. Trump has saved the day!

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Golden Key
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FYI: The UN has called a Security Council meeting for today to discuss T's helpful (not) action.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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simontoad
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I read an opinion piece in Haaretz (Israeli newspaper) that said that foreign embassies to Israel should move to West Jerusalem when foreign embassies to Palestine can move to East Jerusalem. I'm sorry I read the article on my phone and can't find a link.

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Human

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quetzalcoatl
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Interesting article in the Irish Times, basically saying that Trump has in one fell swoop, undermined the US place in any peace negotiations. 'It has moved the US to the foreign policy fringe.' I've no idea if this is correct, but it makes sense. Why would anyone trust the US, if they can throw over decades of agreement on Jerusalem?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/jerusalem-us-policy-moves-towards-the-fringe-1.3319161

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Stetson
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I wonder if Trump can do a reversal on this, similar to the way he reversed himself on revisiting the One China policy. If he were to still pay lip service to the change, but find a way to delay it indefinitely like previous presidents have done, would his true-believers see through the charade?
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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Interesting article in the Irish Times, basically saying that Trump has in one fell swoop, undermined the US place in any peace negotiations. 'It has moved the US to the foreign policy fringe.' I've no idea if this is correct, but it makes sense. Why would anyone trust the US, if they can throw over decades of agreement on Jerusalem?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/jerusalem-us-policy-moves-towards-the-fringe-1.3319161

I'm not sure that anyone trusts great powers; they will shift and change as they see fit. However, other countries are likely wondering why on earth President Trump gave away one of his best cards even before sitting down to play (forgive the gambling metaphor). He has just undercut his own ability to achieve anything on the Palestine/Israel question. I wonder what his son-in-law thinks of this....
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I wonder what his son-in-law thinks of this....

Both Jared and Ivanka have made it quite clear that they are more than willing to get into bed with antisemites and misogynists. They made their bargain with the devil, and have collected their huuuuge paychecks in return. It's a bit late for either of them to feign interest in how these policies affect the Middle East. If Jared-the-Silent choose to speak out, it will have that same golden* ring of truth as when Ivanka comes out against misogyny and cyber bullying.


*(as in "golden shower")

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Anglican_Brat
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To be fair, many Arabs if not most, have long believed that the United States was never an honest broker in the Middle East, clearly preferring Israel over Palestine. Even the Democrats make no secret of their support for Israel.

Indeed some have argued that Oslo, Bill Clinton's foreign policy accomplishment, was simply cover for Israel to continue her settlement construction, and intrusion into the West Bank and Gaza, while giving limited authority to the PLO and rhetorically proclaiming that peace among two sides have advanced.

So, the only silver lining is that to the Arabs, at least the United States is not pretending any more. America is Israel's cheerleader, and doesn't give a flying toss about the Palestinians.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Interesting article in the Irish Times, basically saying that Trump has in one fell swoop, undermined the US place in any peace negotiations. 'It has moved the US to the foreign policy fringe.' I've no idea if this is correct, but it makes sense. Why would anyone trust the US, if they can throw over decades of agreement on Jerusalem?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/jerusalem-us-policy-moves-towards-the-fringe-1.3319161

I'm not sure that anyone trusts great powers; they will shift and change as they see fit. However, other countries are likely wondering why on earth President Trump gave away one of his best cards even before sitting down to play (forgive the gambling metaphor). He has just undercut his own ability to achieve anything on the Palestine/Israel question. I wonder what his son-in-law thinks of this....
Because he knew he never could achieve anything worthwhile. It can't be achieved. So he achieved domestic political capital.

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Love wins

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Pangolin Guerre
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
To be fair, many Arabs if not most, have long believed that the United States was never an honest broker in the Middle East, clearly preferring Israel over Palestine. Even the Democrats make no secret of their support for Israel.

[snip]

So, the only silver lining is that to the Arabs, at least the United States is not pretending any more. America is Israel's cheerleader, and doesn't give a flying toss about the Palestinians.

As argued by Khouri in yesterday's Haaretz.
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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Not sure about that; I see a lot of evangelicals having a sort of "Jews covered under old covenant so don't need to convert" "get out of jail free card" exemption from their otherwise "Accept Jesus or burn forever in Hell" theology.

Yeah, I think there are some variations on that among evangelicals. When it comes to premillenial eschatology however, the version I usually hear has Jews who don't convert staying unsaved.
In the interest of providing an example, the climax to this Jack Chick comic makes it clear that most Jews will be annihilated in the last days, and also(via the conversion of the cab driver), that Jews who remain without Christ will burn in hell.

I'd imagine the less-fringey sections of the pre-mil movement are reluctant about preaching the eternal damnation of their Jewish allies, and would try to square the circle with the old-covenant Get Out Of Jail Free card.

[ 09. December 2017, 06:23: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
To be fair, many Arabs if not most, have long believed that the United States was never an honest broker in the Middle East, clearly preferring Israel over Palestine. Even the Democrats make no secret of their support for Israel.

[snip]

So, the only silver lining is that to the Arabs, at least the United States is not pretending any more. America is Israel's cheerleader, and doesn't give a flying toss about the Palestinians.

As argued by Khouri in yesterday's Haaretz.
The more I read Ha'aretz the more I find it a sane voice in the madness.

The problem here, methinks, is that the more hotheaded elements on the Palestinian side can now say "there's no hope in Western powers for us, we have to take control of our own destiny and damn their eyes!" with even more credibility. More rockets, more over-reaction from Israel, more conflict, more death, more claim and counter claim. And we all know who'll be carrying theie dead children out of the wreckage, as ever.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Stetson
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Karl wrote:

quote:
The more I read Ha'aretz the more I find it a sane voice in the madness.
It's been noted by numerous observers that Ha'aretz, along with other mainstream Israeli media, gets away with saying stuff that would be denounced as slanderous anti-Israeli(or indeed, anti-semitic) propaganda if said in the US.

I've heard this attributed not so much to the Israeli media being pro-Palestinian, but rather that, in a country where everyone knows the history, there isn't much point in trying to censor or sugarcoat your reporting.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I read an opinion piece in Haaretz (Israeli newspaper) that said that foreign embassies to Israel should move to West Jerusalem when foreign embassies to Palestine can move to East Jerusalem. I'm sorry I read the article on my phone and can't find a link.

How about a single embassy compound on the boundary to save money - one gate to the west for dealing with Israel, another to the east for Palestine. With a big conference room in the middle for people to talk. A line of embassy buildings would be a better border than a wall.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Golden Key
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Like that peace conference building straddling the N. Korean/S. Korean border?

[ 10. December 2017, 05:41: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Schroedinger's cat

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I still find the "now armageddon can commence" stuff to assume that God was waiting for the crazed leader of a tin-pot, atheist, jonny-come-lately country to declare that he thought Jerusalem was the capital of Israel before he could act.

That is hubris-extreme. That is unbelievable arrogance. Especially as (as others have said) previous presidents have said the same. But he did it deliberately to promote strife and trouble.

Yes, there should be organisation in the Middle East. There should be clear boundaries, clear borders, clear capitals, no fighting. But that is a dream, and doesn't happen just because someone says it.

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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Bishops Finger
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I do indeed hope the Christian God has more sense than to wait for 'the crazed leader of a tin-pot, atheist, jonny-come-lately country'.....not to mention the said leader's egregious toadies and lickspittles.

If not, then I intend to transfer my allegiance.

Enlil seems a good bet.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I'd imagine the less-fringey sections of the pre-mil movement are reluctant about preaching the eternal damnation of their Jewish allies, and would try to square the circle with the old-covenant Get Out Of Jail Free card.

Not Romans 11:26?

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I'd imagine the less-fringey sections of the pre-mil movement are reluctant about preaching the eternal damnation of their Jewish allies, and would try to square the circle with the old-covenant Get Out Of Jail Free card.

Not Romans 11:26?
Only if it's interpreted as "you must accept Jesus or it's the rotisserie for you, unless you're Jewish, in which case you're in anyway" - which is the Get Out Of Jail Free card I was referring to.

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mousethief

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I was confused by "old-covenant" GOoHF. Thinking it referred to something in the OT and not Paul.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Gamaliel
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I don't think Cliffdweller is being disingenuous. An attack on Dispensationalism is hardly a blanket attack on evangelicalism as a whole.

Although one could argue that the fact that all Dispensationalists and whacky eschatological speculators tend to be fundamentalists of some form or other, is itself an indictment on the more conservative end of the evo spectrum.

That said, I have some sympathy with Kaplan's challenge on this thread insofar as I don't think Trump nor the majority of his supporters - Dispensationalist or otherwise - would see this as a means to hasten Armageddon.

It's simpler than that.

It's more a case of them supporting their biggest ally in the Middle East whilst sticking two fingers up at the UN and the rest of the world - and particularly at the Palestinians and the Arab nations.

It's also a way to bolster Trump's cachet with his particular constituency, of showing Putin who has the biggest balls and of distracting attention from internal problems.

In other words, it's about Real Politick.

The fact that hairy-arsed Red Necks in Alabama are getting off on it is incidental. In the same way as any deaths that result on either side if another Intifada breaks out will be dismissed or overlooked as eggs that have to be broken in order to make an omelette.

That omelette, of course, is the maintenance of US hegemony and influence in the Middle East.

'America First! America First! Fuck everybody else ...' (unless they are useful to the America First agenda of course, as Israel is.

I might be naive but I'd like to see a Two State solution but am aware of the intractable issues on both sides.

Kaplan keeps reminding us of barbarism and Islamo-fascism. Rightly so. That exists.

The issue though is how to address and tackle that whilst at the same time recognising the legitimate grievances of a people who have been disenfranchised since 1948 and let down by almost everyone including the Arab states as well as the West.

Of course,they don't matter.

What matters to Trump is Donald Trump. And yes, he's not the first POTUS to have pushed for this. Nor will he be the last.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Doncha know, Gamaliel? They're not "legitimate grievances" because Palestinians are evil murdering bastards who'd kill everyone if the IDF didn't hold them in check. Apparently.

Personally I think the two-state is second best, over a single democratic state where being a Jew, Palestinian or anything else is irrelevant. The idea of a "Palestinian state" or a "Jewish state" just fuels racism. You've only got to think of Britian First style loonies who talk about deporting Muslims because the UK is a "White" country or a "Christian" country.

[ 11. December 2017, 09:01: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Curiosity killed ...

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:

Indeed some have argued that Oslo, Bill Clinton's foreign policy accomplishment, was simply cover for Israel to continue her settlement construction, and intrusion into the West Bank and Gaza, while giving limited authority to the PLO and rhetorically proclaiming that peace among two sides have advanced.

According to the play Oslo, which has programme notes from Mona Juul, one of the Norwegian diplomats involved, the USA was kept out of the Oslo talks until an agreement was reached, when the Accord was signed on the White House lawn with Clinton present.

The Oslo process, a series of talks, occurred in 1993, alongside the Washington peace talks, and was highly secret and deniable. Rod-Larsen suggested that the model of talks at the time were bound to fail because everything was put on the table, whereas a better model would be to start debating one area, agree that, then move on to another. Initially the Israelis sent academics, Yair Hirschfeld and Ron Pundack, professors of economics, to talk to the Palestinians, Ahmed Qurie, the Palestinian Finance Minister, and Hassan Asfour, official PLO liaison. When Uri Savir, the director-general of the Israeli Foreign Ministry, started taking part, he would arrive via Paris, having set up a cover story there. The talks were facilitated by Mona Juul's husband,Terje Rod-Larsen, a sociologist. The last words from Mona Juul in the play are wondering about how much good they really did - along with the other characters describing their fate.

Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli prime minister involved in the Oslo Accords, was assassinated by an Israeli right-winger at a peace rally in 1995, because he was identified with this peace process.

Seeing the play on Saturday, I was struck by how often Jerusalem became a sticking point. It was left as a unresolved issue in the Accords, which were not a formal agreement, but an agreement to discuss further. Where the Oslo Accords broke ground was involving the PLO in talks with Israel and the PLO acknowledging the legitimacy of the State of Israel, which allowed Yasser Arafat and the PLO to move back to Gaza from Tunis. The use of Israeli academics allowed talks to take place without compromising either Peres or Rabin whose relationship had been confrontational, both fighting for the leadership role.

[ 11. December 2017, 09:08: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

It's more a case of them supporting their biggest ally in the Middle East whilst sticking two fingers up at the UN and the rest of the world - and particularly at the Palestinians and the Arab nations.

.. and above all, Muslims.
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simontoad
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I think the Oslo Accords were the closest we got to peace in the Middle East. The creation of a Palestinian-controlled entity with even limited autonomy was a major achievement in a situation that had gone precisely nowhere since the six day war. That Israel withdrew from territory and destroyed settlements to comply with the Accords was amazing to me at the time. I still remember watching settlers being dragged away from a settlement in Gaza by soldiers on the TV.

I pray that the parties might grope their way towards peace again. The omens are not good, but I pray for a resolution anyway. I'm sure I'm not alone.

[ 11. December 2017, 13:14: Message edited by: simontoad ]

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Human

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simontoad
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I also remember weeping when Rabin was assassinated.

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Human

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Gamaliel
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Well yes, I'd like to see a single democratic state where it doesn't matter whether you are Jewish, Muslim, Christian or whatever else ... but we're far from that.

Sure, there's freedom of religion in Israel but it's certainly not a level playing field.

And yes, it's not as if the neighbouring countries are any better when it comes to that sort of thing - and in the case of some Arab States like Saudi Arabia ...

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Gamaliel
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No, you're not alone, simontoad.

You've just reminded me, with your reference to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, that I was at university and a newly converted evangelical when Anwar Sadat.

A visiting speaker at a Christian Union meeting the following week alluded to it in almost gleeful terms as if it somehow showed some kind of outworking of God's eschatological plan for the Middle East - although he didn't explain how.

A number of CU stalwarts, including the executive, were somewhat put out by this and the guy back-pedalled a bit when subsequently asked to explain himself.

Kaplan Corday keeps wondering why some of us here react against various forms of conservative evangelicalism.

Because of tossers like that, that's why ...

[Roll Eyes]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Gamaliel
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That should, of course, have read, 'when Anwar Sadat was assassinated.'

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Gamaliel
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And the corollary, of course, is that the reason why some of us stuck with evangelicalism was because there were voices (such as our CU's exec) that were prepared to challenge tossers like that from time to time.

No Christian tradition has a monopoly on tossers.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You've just reminded me, with your reference to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, that I was at university and a newly converted evangelical when Anwar Sadat.

I read a book "proving" that Sadat was the Antichrist. It somehow had lost force as he'd been dead for a year when I read it.

I've never been (much of a) one for "working out endtime prophecy" - eat your heart out, Hal Lindsey.

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Gamaliel
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Sure, my experience was that Baptists (in the UK at least) were a lot less hung up on all that malarkey than Pentecostals and Brethren were.

It's difficult to generalise though. My evangelical Anglican mother-in-law had all sorts of whacky ideas about Israel and the End Times and used to subscribe to all sorts of wierd and wonderful newsletters where revivalism and end-time speculation ran riot.

She's still with us but has Alzheimer's so we don't get so much of that these days.

In some ways she was quite Anglican but when it came to eschatology and so on she was almost a raving Pentie or ultra-literal Plymouth Brother (or Sister).

I suspect she must have picked all this stuff up from inter-church study groups and prayer groups where someone or other would inspire (and infect) the rest of the group with their wierd enthusiasms.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
That said, I have some sympathy with Kaplan's challenge on this thread

I haven't posted on this thread.
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Gamaliel
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Then it must have been on the eschatological thread.

My point remains though.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

It's difficult to generalise though. My evangelical Anglican mother-in-law had all sorts of whacky ideas about Israel and the End Times and used to subscribe to all sorts of wierd and wonderful newsletters where revivalism and end-time speculation ran riot.

I wonder if some of these beliefs are generational in some way and historically contingent around movements being present at the founding of the state of Israel.

To cross streams for a moment (with the eschatological thread), I've seen some support for this move from charismatics/evangelicals who believe that its necessary for the Temple to be rebuilt in Jerusalem, and see this as making things more likely.

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simontoad
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I hate the mormons, even though I have a copy of their book. I think I hate them to the point of being prejudiced, which is why I think I'm reacting in a prejudiced way when my blood boils at the sight of their ugly institution on Mount Scopus. They should fuck off back to Utah.

I'm not yet at the point of wanting to get rid of this prejudice, but maybe I should get there. I have another self-improvement project on the go right now.

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Human

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Gamaliel
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I think that's right, Chris Stiles. Also, in the 1960s when the charismatic thing gained traction in the CofE, early-adopters like my mother-in-law started rubbing shoulders with Pentecostalists and Brethren / independent evangelicals who were moving in a charismatic direction.

My guess would be that my mum-in-law imbibed it all from itinerant speakers and revivalist literature. I was only young at the time but I remember the effect the 1967 Israeli victory had at the time and a decade or so later I came across the detailed speculations it had helped to fuel among the Brethren band Penties.

The 'new churches', of course, reacted against this sort of thing and were very much against eschatological speculation involving Israel and the End-Times as they were against Dispensationalism etc.

I've ever seen it suggested by evangelicals with a penchant for Israel and Zionism that the reason the 'new churches' eventually plateaued was due to their erroneous stance on Israel ... The idea being that the more pro-Israel you are, the more the Lord will 'bless' your cause. Therefore, the reverse must also be the case.

I don't hear a great deal from independent charismatic and evangelical circles these days, but I do detect a swing towards the kind of eschatological schemas that we'd have rejected back in the day.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I've ever seen it suggested by evangelicals with a penchant for Israel and Zionism that the reason the 'new churches' eventually plateaued was due to their erroneous stance on Israel ... The idea being that the more pro-Israel you are, the more the Lord will 'bless' your cause.

Yes, usually stemming from their interpretation of Genesis 12:3 ("I will bless those who bless you .."). I've also run into a few people whose spirituality was formed in that era who will interpret every economic/political even through that prism even where it seems somewhat incongruous.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I've ever seen it suggested by evangelicals with a penchant for Israel and Zionism that the reason the 'new churches' eventually plateaued was due to their erroneous stance on Israel ... The idea being that the more pro-Israel you are, the more the Lord will 'bless' your cause.

Yes, usually stemming from their interpretation of Genesis 12:3 ("I will bless those who bless you .."). I've also run into a few people whose spirituality was formed in that era who will interpret every economic/political even through that prism even where it seems somewhat incongruous.
Yes, I've also been told by this particular stripe that if I don't support Israel I "put myself under God's judgement". Apparently I must support them in everything they do because God's on their side. Justice seems to take a back seat to tribalism.

I find this "support" language difficult. What does it even mean? Israel does some good things and some bad things, like everyone. I support the good things; I oppose the bad things. It's not like a football team where their scoring goals is good or bad depending on your own team loyalties; bombing raids, check points, elections and policies stand or fall morally on their own terms regardless of whether I "support" one side or the other.

[ 13. December 2017, 14:11: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Gamaliel
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Yes, indeed. Absolutely.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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TurquoiseTastic

Fish of a different color
# 8978

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I guess Jeremiah encountered quite a bit of that.
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