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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Christians in the Middle East
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It was my perception that, of the few dozen who post on this topic on the Ship, a majority display a disproportionate interest in condemning the wrongs of America and Israel as compared with the far more serious wrongs of Islamofascism.
Alternatively, that may be because there are fewer people on the ship who advocate a 'my country/ideology right or wrong' approach to 'Islamofascism' (whatever that is - given your rather confused addition of Iran into that mix).
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Islamo-fascism certainly exists.
Many predominantly Islamic countries are hardly beacons of liberal democracy and tolerance. I once attended a reading London by exiled writers from various countries. The level of censorship some of these writers had experienced was extraordinary, even over the most anodyne of references.
From what I've gleaned, Iran is a far more mixed and nuanced a society than is often portrayed, but I don't think anyone would claim it's in any way liberal ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Islamo-fascism certainly exists.
Many predominantly Islamic countries are hardly beacons of liberal democracy and tolerance.
Which isn't evidence that there is a particular ideology called 'Islamofascism' that animates all such repression. A lot of the arguments around this seem to come from people who readily confuse historical contingencies with universal particulars (ignoring the Christian commentators who seem to yearn to be part of the military industrial complex).
Not to mention that the extent of religious and political repression varies widely in time - with some of the most secular regimes also being the most repressive, and the difficulties with generalizing across countries differing vastly in ethnic mix and religious ideology.
If Salafism is the thing closest thing to any form of 'Islamofacism' then Saudi Arabia (the West and Israel's current ally) has done more to facilitate it's spread than any of the countries the West has invaded or bombed in the past.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Perhaps.
I think an analogous point though,would be to consider an issue such as the plight of the Rohingya minority in Myanmar / Burma.
There are Islamist militants among them.
Presumably they would fall within Kaplan's definition of Islamo-fascism.
In which case, are we to say, 'Why worry about the plight of the Rohingya? Surely the issue of Islamo-fascism is a bigger issue? The plight of the refugees pales into insignificance alongside that ...'
Which is where Kaplan's accusations of assymetry ultimately leads.
Fuck them they are only Muslims / Jews / Irish / Vietnamese boat people [insert minority of choice] ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
'Islamofascism' (whatever that is - given your rather confused addition of Iran into that mix).
Islamofascism certainly includes the toxic hatred of Jews which characterises the Iran regime.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think an analogous point though,would be to consider an issue such as the plight of the Rohingya minority in Myanmar / Burma.
We do "consider" - and pray about -this situation all the time, because my wife does English conversation classes with an asylum-seeker organisation, and the family of one of her students was forced to flee to Bangladesh, carrying the aged mother, after Burmese troops attacked their village and shot his sister.
She has helped him in his determination to record his own and his family's experiences, an exercise which might or might not have some therapeutic benefit.
Go and teach your grandmother to suck eggs.
quote:
There are Islamist militants among them.
Allegedly, ie according to the Burmese authorities
quote:
Presumably they would fall within Kaplan's definition of Islamo-fascism.
Even if they exist, they have no power, no realistic chance of taking over Burma or establishing a nation separate from it from Burmese territory, and are therefore fairly irrelevant to this discussion - unless you are grasping at straws..
[ 19. December 2017, 05:02: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Glad to hear all that, Kaplan.
However, one could argue that the Palestinians have no power, no realistic chance of forming a government, etc etc.
That's not clutching at straws, that's simply to acknowledge the reality of the situation.
The only chance the Palestinians have would be:
- If all the surrounding Arab nations invaded Israel with Russian support, a scenario some conservative evangelicals envisage as it accords with their interpretation of scripture and their eschatology. Not a scenario I'd welcome in any way, shape or form.
- If some way could be found to broker a two-state system or - in an even more utopian way, as Karl has indicated, a state where it does matter whether you are Jewish, Muslim or Christian but there's a level playing field. I don't see that happening any time soon.
As for anti-Semitism in Iran. Yes, long history of that. Jewish people were forced to move. It's also an illiberal regime in all manner of ways, as I've indicated from my account of my encounter with exiled writers.
How to deal with Iran?
Treat it as an international pariah or try and draw it in from the cold in some way? That's seen as akin to Neville Chamberlain's Appeasement by some US hawks I've come across.
Nuke it? Sanction it?
How to deal with the Saudis? Stop selling them weapons might help.
How to deal with Israel?
Recognise Jerusalem as their capital? Offer them unqualified support? Or act as some kind of critical friend?
Whatever approach weight favour is fraught with difficulty.
I don't pretend to have the answers.
Railing here on Ship in either a pro or anti-Israeli way isn't going to help.
There are two equal and opposite errors we can fall into, it seems to me. We can either play down the very real threat of Islamist or jihadist extremism on the one hand or we can blithely ignore the systemic inequalities of the State of Israel on the other.
How we tread a fine line between those is the tricky part.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
There is no contradiction in saying that Palestinians have a very bad deal whilst also deploring the disgusting Saudi regime.
In the same way there is no contradiction in highlighting the impacts of Australian immigration at the same time as deploring the regime in The Philippines.
This whole project to try to insist that one must not feel strongly about something because something far worse exists is bogus.
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
I think the other thing is there are no significant voices defending the Saudis or Iranians. Israel on the other hand has many apologists, so it's natural there wil be more debate, focus and attention on it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by Mr Cheesy quote:
There is no contradiction in saying that Palestinians have a very bad deal whilst also deploring the disgusting Saudi regime.
Maybe not but one should look at the history of the Saudi-Palestinian relationship and try to find out why it appears that Riyadh has decided to cut loose from 70+ years of unquestioning support for the Palestinians to give its backing to a peace deal (nascent, to be sure) with US support.
As for the disgustingness of the Saudi regime: this appears to be changing, although one should not take all of the actions taken by the new crown prince at face value.
In the meantime, it will be interesting to see how Riyadh reacts to the new Belgian Ambassador who is female.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Maybe not but one should look at the history of the Saudi-Palestinian relationship and try to find out why it appears that Riyadh has decided to cut loose from 70+ years of unquestioning support for the Palestinians to give its backing to a peace deal (nascent, to be sure) with US support.
Saudi is a dominant player in the region. In fact there have been peace plans put forward by the Arab League since 2002. The idea that the Saudis have suddenly and recently gone alone with the Americans in putting forward an option for peace isn't really coherent.
Anyway, there isn't a whole lot of influence by Saudis on Palestinians and hasn't been for a long time.
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arse
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I've oft heard it said that it's because most of them are monophysites - which is a stupid idea IMO.
Really? Outside the rareified intellectual atmosphere of the Ship, I'd be surprised to meet a western Christian of any theological stripe who even knew what a Monophysite was.
Though many are such without knowing it.
The PC term these days is miaphysite.
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I've oft heard it said that it's because most of them are monophysites - which is a stupid idea IMO.
Really? Outside the rareified intellectual atmosphere of the Ship, I'd be surprised to meet a western Christian of any theological stripe who even knew what a Monophysite was.
Though many are such without knowing it.
The PC term these days is miaphysite.
And while we are on things Chalcedonian, the PC term for Nestorian is Dyophysite - but Assyrians get pissed off if you refer to them as either.
[ 19. December 2017, 19:06: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Well, who wouldn't?
I'll get me coat.....
....though I suspect many of these nuances and definitions have little meaning to those caught in crossfire or bombing raids.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, who wouldn't?
I'll get me coat.....
....though I suspect many of these nuances and definitions have little meaning to those caught in crossfire or bombing raids.
IJ
Well yes, I dare say that those in the homeland have got other things on their mind, but there is an Assyrian diaspora to whom such distinctions matter.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, who wouldn't?
I'll get me coat.....
....though I suspect many of these nuances and definitions have little meaning to those caught in crossfire or bombing raids.
IJ
Well yes, I dare say that those in the homeland have got other things on their mind, but there is an Assyrian diaspora to whom such distinctions matter.
Given that Assyria has been gone now lo these 2600 years, how meaningful is it to speak of an Assyrian diaspora?
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Assyrian Christians. Look them up on Google. They are a variety of Christian from Iraq and it's environs and they do have a diaspora.
They are a bit like the Syrian Jacobites or the Copts in Egypt, sort of Orthodox but not quite kosher from a canonical Orthodox perspective as they aren't Chalcedonian as far as I know.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Given that Assyria has been gone now lo these 2600 years, how meaningful is it to speak of an Assyrian diaspora?
I've met and protested with some of them. If the lack of a political entity is what matters can we speak of an Kurdish diaspora?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Look up The Assyrian Church of The East. They are a kind of Syriac Christian Church with their HQ in Erbil, Iraq I think.
Their head-honcho is some kind of Patriarch-Catholicos.
The Assyrians seem to have taken the brunt of the ISIS assaults, hence the diaspora.
There are also Chaldean Christians too. Some of them are in communion with Rome.
There are a whole range of ancient churches in that part of the world that the rest of us know very little about.
Many have been settling in the US, Australia and in Western Europe as things became tougher for them after the invasion of Iraq and the chaos that followed.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Well yes, I dare say that those in the homeland have got other things on their mind, but there is an Assyrian diaspora to whom such distinctions matter.
A sizeable number of whom now live in Iran having gone there from Iraq, so much for the success of battling 'Islamofacism'.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, like Kurds, Assyrians are an ethnic group. They may no longer 'come down like a wolf on the fold' with 'their cohorts (were) gleaming in purple and gold' and have those neatly plaited beards and distinctive hats like the dudes on the reliefs in The British Museum but they are still an ethnic group.
Think Kurds. Think Basques. Think Romanies. Think Laplanders. None of those ethnic groups have political territories such.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
This whole project to try to insist that one must not feel strongly about something because something far worse exists is bogus.
This is a misrepresentation and a straw man.
I'm reluctant to attempt any analogies, because dodgy ones not a hundred miles from here have given them a bad name, but here goes.
Japanese-Americans were treated appallingly 1941-5, and it is perfectly legitimate to remember, publicise and deplore ("feel strongly" about) this regrettable episode.
However, if anyone were to constantly bring it up as the most salient aspect of the Japanese War 1937-45, or treat it as somehow equivalent to atrocities such as the Rape of Nanking/Nanjing (the outbreak of which was commemorated a few days ago) we would question their grasp of moral and historical proportion, and suspect that they had lost the plot.
Believe it or not, it is possible to condemn the intrinsic wrongness of a phenomenon AND understand its place in some sort of scale of priorities.
Islamofascism, as found in groups such as ISIS, is a far more serious evil than any transgression which Israel might have
committed, and it is obtuse to pretend otherwise.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
They are a bit like the Syrian Jacobites or the Copts in Egypt
Except that Jacobites and Copts are (putatively) Monophysite/Miaphysite while Assyrians are (putatively) Nestorian/Diophysite.
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Given that Assyria has been gone now lo these 2600 years, how meaningful is it to speak of an Assyrian diaspora?
There was an Assyrian Church well before the founding of Constantinople, and has continued until today. Of course there have been schisms and divisions along the way in a manner reminiscent of sad divisions in the churches related to Constantinople. From memory, there is or at least was an equivalent to the various Uniate churches, in communion with Rome but retaining a distinctive liturgy
And an Antiochian Church predates Constantinople as well.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
IIRC, the Assyrian Catholics are generally known as Chaldaean Catholics. Under the Patriarch of Babylon, they have 21 dioceses of which 4 are in Canada, the US, and Oz.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
What does Constantinople have to do with anything?
I didn't realize that "Assyrian" referred to a currently existing ethnic group. So fucking sue me.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What does Constantinople have to do with anything?
I didn't realize that "Assyrian" referred to a currently existing ethnic group. So fucking sue me.
I know a few of the local Assyrians. They are very pleasant, pleased to be in a place where the worst headache they have is the snow, have splendid pastries after the liturgy, and will patiently explain about their history. Their weddings are very very long indeed with lots of splendid food (a neighbour's United Church nephew has just added some Assyrian into the Ottawa Valley gene pool) and I think the only danger is of an arranged marriage to bring someone's cousin in through Immigration. You could do worse, I think, and you should be safe from lawsuits.
Ecclesiastical trivia fans may be aware of the Archbishops' Mission to the Assyrians, an interesting initiative begun by Edward White Benson of Canterbury to provide educational support to the Assyrian Church of the East, which included Anglican staff serving as ecclesiastical judges in the Assyrian church courts. Canon William Wigram of the mission was active at the League of Nations supporting the Assyrians whom he felt were hard done by at the end of the British mandate in Mesopotamia.
[ 20. December 2017, 03:57: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Believe it or not, it is possible to condemn the intrinsic wrongness of a phenomenon AND understand its place in some sort of scale of priorities.
Islamofascism, as found in groups such as ISIS, is a far more serious evil than any transgression which Israel might have
committed, and it is obtuse to pretend otherwise.
Believe it or not, it is possible to have different priorities. I never said that the situation in Palestine is the worst in the world. For various reasons it is complicated and has far reaching impacts.
But I'd be the first to wish to see the destruction of Saudi regime before Israel.
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arse
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... Of course there have been schisms and divisions along the way in a manner reminiscent of sad divisions in the churches related to Constantinople. ...
So different, so very different, from the home life of our own dear Protestants.
[ 20. December 2017, 06:10: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Believe it or not, it is possible to condemn the intrinsic wrongness of a phenomenon AND understand its place in some sort of scale of priorities.
Islamofascism, as found in groups such as ISIS, is a far more serious evil than any transgression which Israel might have
committed, and it is obtuse to pretend otherwise.
Believe it or not, it is possible to have different priorities. I never said that the situation in Palestine is the worst in the world. For various reasons it is complicated and has far reaching impacts.
But I'd be the first to wish to see the destruction of Saudi regime before Israel.
Thing is, this is a debate board. "Iran hangs gays, this is terrible" would not really provoke debate. "Israel shot an unarmed, legless man while protesting" https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.829384 will provoke a massive debate of claim, counterclaim, argument and quite possibly another uberthread. It's because it's controversial that it creates, well, debate. On a debate board.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... Of course there have been schisms and divisions along the way in a manner reminiscent of sad divisions in the churches related to Constantinople. ...
So different, so very different, from the home life of our own dear Protestants.
It's probably fair to say that not even the US Episcopalians have split into as many groups......
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Thing is, this is a debate board. "Iran hangs gays, this is terrible" would not really provoke debate. "Israel shot an unarmed, legless man while protesting" https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.829384 will provoke a massive debate of claim, counterclaim, argument and quite possibly another uberthread. It's because it's controversial that it creates, well, debate. On a debate board.
I think it is also because Israel is tied in many ways to many of us in ways that Iran isn't. It is tied in many ways to our history. It receives much financial assistance from the US in ways that Iran does not. It is a society built on a Western European democracy model.
One reason that Israel has a particular tug on the West is that it looks to us for support, tries to engage with us in a vigorous form of public relations - and, let's be clear, much of the population has recent origins in Europe and North America. I suspect the combination of those things makes many believe that it is actually possible to change Israel.*
Iran doesn't really have that kind of connection. Saudi isn't talked about much in polite conversation. I don't think anyone really thinks that either can be changed by Western pressure, and the politicians are so compromised by the financial oil connections with Saudi that they're never going to do anything very much.
* I think this is changing as Western societies are changing - and there are many who are more interested in focussing on abuses in Iran and Saudi than Israel. Personally, I can't see this as a bad thing. But, again, I feel that there are more than enough problems to go around and there is no special obligation on anyone to focus on one issue rather than another.
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Yes, I think that is the other element. It's a bit like the way I still get annoyed about my kids leaving the washing up gloves in the bowl, while other kids somewhere are nicking cars and dealing coke. If anything, rather than the anti-Semitism with which people are so often labelled, it's a faith that the Israelis have a better nature to which we can appeal, whilst there's an unspoken feeling that the Iranians and Saudis are less so.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
@Kaplan, sure. In Gamaliel parlance, 'a bit like' means 'sharing a passing resemblance to' ...
What I was trying to say was that their relationship with the canonical Orthodox (and yes, Mousethief, Constantinople does come into the equation but not necessarily in a Vatican-ish way), is similar to that of the Copts and Syriacs - and the Armenians and Ethiopians for that matter, insofar as they aren't seen as kosher by the Big O Orthodox in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch brigade ...
Whether they are Nestorian or not seems to depend on who you speak to.
In a similar way to whether the Copts and Armenians etc are Monophysite or Miaphysite ...
You'll probably be aware that there was 19th century interest in 'The Nestorians' among Anglican, Brethren and other Protestant missionaries who saw them as potential allies against Rome (and yes, Constantinople to a certain extent).
I once read a delightfully eccentric account from the 1840s by an Englishman who'd travelled among 'The Nestorians' and who evidently considered them as potential fellow travellers as they weren't in communion with Rome and didn't have as much bling and flummery as some of the other Eastern Churches.
I don't know about that. All these ancient churches seem to have elaborate liturgies and a great line in funny hats.
They get a thumbs-up from me for that alone.
You can't beat a funny hat.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... You can't beat a funny hat.
That gets a ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You can't beat a funny hat.
Amen.
I was once in a large evangelical bookshop when three Coptic priests came in looking for something.
In their black robes, pectoral crosses and exotic headwear, they stood out from the milling t-shirt and jeans-clad low-church clientele like the proverbial canine gonads.
They were utterly magnificent.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
IIRC, the Assyrian Catholics are generally known as Chaldaean Catholics. Under the Patriarch of Babylon, they have 21 dioceses of which 4 are in Canada, the US, and Oz.
Assyrian Christians and Chaldean Catholics have the same geographical and (Nestorian) theological roots, but the latter are uniate, having their own liturgy but recognising papal authority.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But I'd be the first to wish to see the destruction of Saudi regime before Israel.
Me too.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
This may shock some people but I tend to regard an awareness of and strong sympathy for the position of Christians in the Middle East as a bit of a test marker for whether to bother to take any notice of what a person says or thinks about the endless sorrows of that part of the world.
This has been very marked with, and a useful tool for assessing the worth of commentary on the Syrian Civil War.
That goes just as much for those who ferociously pro-Palestinian as for those who are ferociously pro-Israel or those who either don't know there are indigenous Christian communities in that part of the world or who take the line that they don't count and can't really be proper Christians because they're not interested in the Five Points of TULIP Calvinism.
Incidentally, if you can access this where you are, you might appreciate this BBC World Service broadcast about ikon painters in Bethlehem.
[ 24. December 2017, 14:37: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But I'd be the first to wish to see the destruction of Saudi regime before Israel.
Me too.
And replaced in the ruins by what?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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