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Source: (consider it) Thread: The New Bishop of London
L'organist
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As you say, Oh dear.

Whenever I hear the cant about the church reflecting diversity (by which the speaker often means sexual orientation) and about showing "love for all" the one thing they don't mean is true love for people who are LGBTI.

I'll begin to take these people seriously when they have the guts to tell some of our brethren in Africa (and people on the ConEvo side in this country, for that matter) that they cannot be considered to be Christian while they show such hostility and aggression towards homosexuality.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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leftfieldlover
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
As you say, Oh dear.

Whenever I hear the cant about the church reflecting diversity (by which the speaker often means sexual orientation) and about showing "love for all" the one thing they don't mean is true love for people who are LGBTI.

I'll begin to take these people seriously when they have the guts to tell some of our brethren in Africa (and people on the ConEvo side in this country, for that matter) that they cannot be considered to be Christian while they show such hostility and aggression towards homosexuality.

At least I haven't heard the phrase 'hate the sin, love the sinner' for some time - or am I living a very sheltered life? I love the fact that the Bishop of London is to be a woman and can only pray and hope that her LGBT supporting credentials are not hidden for too long. I have known some ConEvos and they are very hard to please! Someone with Bishop Sarah's background is surely perfectly formed to deal with these and other 'difficult' Christians. In the meantime, we will wait until she has been enthroned.
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L'organist
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Unfortunately the true ConEvo is likely to take even less notice of +Sarah than they have of +Richard. After all, people who argue in favour of "headship" and "complementarianism" are probably not dancing a celebratory jig at her appointment.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Helen-Eva
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Any idea what (if anything) she thinks about the whole St Sepulchre's Musicians' Church hoohah?

[Edited to move an apostrophe]

[ 20. December 2017, 10:32: Message edited by: Helen-Eva ]

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David Goode
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

(What is it with St. H's, Bishopsgate? If the C of E really is pants filled with smelly poo, why don't they hand back the keys, and go where the underwear is pure?).

Because even the smelliest poo-filled pants never smell quite so bad when you have a guaranteed free home, stipend, and a pension.
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Bishops Finger
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Alas, I am cynical enough, in my dotage, to believe that that is true.

[Disappointed]

If such persons had the honesty and integrity to leave, and to go and work at making tents, I'd have some respect for them. It's not just the Con-Evos, but the F-in-F characters who (for example) carried on episcopal duties in the C of E whilst planning to cross the Tiber once they'd got pensions etc. sorted.

[Disappointed] again.

As regards +Sarah, let's wait and see. General opinion seems to be that she is a Good Egg (and I got that from our Madam Sacristan, who is F-in-F, but always respectful of those with whom she disagrees!).

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Just read the transcript of the Radio 4 interview. Oh dear.

She must have known the question was coming: why such fudge and hesitation in response?

Perhaps she fudged her answer because she doesn't suffer from the unequivocal certainty either way that benights so many others who have such an itch to pronounce on the subject.
Then she'll alienate everyone instead of just some. FWIW her use of the word "current" in this context is one to watch.
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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Just read the transcript of the Radio 4 interview. Oh dear.

She must have known the question was coming: why such fudge and hesitation in response?

Perhaps she fudged her answer because she doesn't suffer from the unequivocal certainty either way that benights so many others who have such an itch to pronounce on the subject.
Then she'll alienate everyone instead of just some. FWIW her use of the word "current" in this context is one to watch.
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SvitlanaV2
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Alienating everyone appears to be the CofE way. I suppose it's equality in action. You could say the new Bishop of London has started as she means to go on, which is just as well.
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Dark Knight

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Heard her being interviewed by Mishal Hussain on Today this morning. When MH asked her specifically about St Helen's Bishopsgate and their threat to leave etc, etc, she floundered, ending up with a non-sequitur about diversity in Hackney.

Someone needs to give +Jane some urgent training in traditional CofE flanelling.

Blimey, I thought only the Pope got to change their name, when appointed.
[Killing me]

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You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
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Higgs Bosun
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Perhaps she fudged her answer because she doesn't suffer from the unequivocal certainty either way that benights so many others who have such an itch to pronounce on the subject.

If she does have a more nuanced view of what is actually a very complex subject, then that is to her credit, in my view. But it is not suited to the kind of interview where sound-bites are sought and nuance is eschewed.

(I remember with delight when Rowan Williams said on the Today programme, "I'll need to think about that" and paused for a noticeable time. I also like it when they two people on about a subject, hoping for an argument, but they agree with each other!)

I would have preferred a response which revealed that an important part of the job of a bishop is to hold together people who have strongly held views which are in direct conflict (and some of whom regard alignment with their view as a test of Christian Orthodoxy). Therefore to express a simple view would destroy any hope of doing that.

She has a significant amount of work to do because in her person she represents a view on another dead horse issue.

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Higgs Bosun
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Whenever I hear the cant about the church reflecting diversity (by which the speaker often means sexual orientation) and about showing "love for all" the one thing they don't mean is true love for people who are LGBTI.

I suspect that in respect of the Diocese of London, 'diversity' is in relation to theology, but also ethnic and cultural diversity. London is one of the most diverse cities in the world.

The presence of ethnic minorities in churches is one reason for the strength of the Diocese of London. It also has to be said that the strength of the diocese is also the result of the strength of the HTB network and the conevo network, both mentioned for their church planting in +Sarah's statement.

In the years 2011-2016, church attendance in the (Diocese of) London grew by 1.1%. However, that the other side of the Thames in Southwark fell by 10.7% over that period. There are no great differences in environment between the two diocese, so one does need to ask why there is a difference.

+Sarah will want, rightly, to maintain the success of London. To do that she will need to hold together a diverse crowd.
Maintaining the success of the

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SusanDoris

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Just read the transcript of the Radio 4 interview. Oh dear.

She must have known the question was coming: why such fudge and hesitation in response?

That is interesting - thanks for posting that.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Bishops Finger
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SvitlanaV2 said:
quote:
Alienating everyone appears to be the CofE way. I suppose it's equality in action. You could say the new Bishop of London has started as she means to go on, which is just as well.
What a miserable post. As I said before, the poor woman is weighed in the balances, and found wanting, before she's even installed. I'd like to see some of the whingers and moaners make a go of the job.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
SvitlanaV2 said:
quote:
Alienating everyone appears to be the CofE way. I suppose it's equality in action. You could say the new Bishop of London has started as she means to go on, which is just as well.
What a miserable post. As I said before, the poor woman is weighed in the balances, and found wanting, before she's even installed. I'd like to see some of the whingers and moaners make a go of the job.

IJ

Point taken. However - and there's got to be a however - she should have started as she meant to go on by being transparent. If she doesn't know, then say she doesn't know. I (and I suspect others share this view) are more suspicious of those who won't say what they believe than I am by those who do say even if I disagree with them.

Equally, we judge potential by experience as well as by opportunity and potential. Tbh I'd say 2 years in Crediton (a liberal diocese IIRC) isn't the best preparation for the 3rd seat in the hierarchy. It's a very strange appointment on that basis unless there's something else in the mix.

By saying she agrees with the current position on SSM - which we all know is under scrutiny and only ever likely to change in one direction- she's possibly preparing the ground to accept a new perspective (ie when a decision is made to accept SSM and it becomes the current current). It's a political approach not a prophetic one.

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Eirenist
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It's not usually a good idea, when embarking on a new post, to start by backing a faction opposed to your appointment into a corner.

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Bishops Finger
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To what faction, and to what corner, do you refer?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Drat - some of us in this diocese were hoping to poach her for our vacancy.

Another Evangelical is on his way
It's not yet decided.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
I also like it when they two people on about a subject, hoping for an argument, but they agree with each other!)

You mean like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04clpd7h0b0

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Drat - some of us in this diocese were hoping to poach her for our vacancy.

Another Evangelical is on his way
It's not yet decided.
Not officially, no.
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
SvitlanaV2 said:
quote:
Alienating everyone appears to be the CofE way. I suppose it's equality in action. You could say the new Bishop of London has started as she means to go on, which is just as well.
What a miserable post. As I said before, the poor woman is weighed in the balances, and found wanting, before she's even installed. I'd like to see some of the whingers and moaners make a go of the job.

IJ

She hasn't been founding wanting by me. By no means.

But the very fact that she's already attracted criticism from different quarters of the CofE (according to this thread) makes my point for me. She can't be seen to belong too firmly to any one 'camp'. As a result, none of them are going to be entirely satisfied with her.

This isn't a criticism of her but a comment on the reality that faces her, in an institution that welcomes diversity but harbours fierce disagreement as well.

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Eirenist
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Bishop's Finger, I had St Helens Bishopsgate in mind.

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irreverend tod
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+Sarah will be missed in Devon and is taking on a role that no-one I've spoken to would touch with a sterilized pole. She is greatly respected by the liberal charismatic wing of the Church here, who are numerous, but dispersed. The Anglo Catholic wing in London should rejoice that they have a Bishop who gets 2nd stage faith and many of the writers from the Roman Catholic ship; even if they don't like the female packaging.
If as a Church we are about to enter 'Interesting Times' we need leaders who have a proven track record of working in pressured time constrained situations such as midwifery. I will be praying for her unlike many who call themselves Christians who will be looking to get rid of her.

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Bishops Finger
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@irreverend tod - well said. +Sarah certainly needs prayer.

BTW, I understand her Christian name is pronounced Sah-Rah rather than Sair-Rah, IYSWIM.

@Eirenist - I thought Bishopsgate was what you meant, but wasn't certain. The corner is of their own painting.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by irreverend tod:
. The Anglo Catholic wing in London should rejoice that they have a Bishop who gets 2nd stage faith

Is this something to do with Fowler's stages of faith?

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Eirenist
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The corner is certainly of the conevos own painting, but she has left them the option of extricating themselves. If they choose to stew in their own juice, that's their decision.

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Bishops Finger
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Indeed.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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irreverend tod
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Leo - more Richard Rohr I think. At it's most basic and what we are teaching our youngsters is that the "I'm right (and going to heaven) and your wrong (and going to hell) idea is best left to three year olds. It could well be Fowler as well, if you give me a reference I can go and read up on it.

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Jengie jon

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Well you can see Fowler's Stages on this page. I would not associate Anglo-Catholicism with stage II. I suspect you would have to work on something like my take on element's of faith rather than stages to make it fit at all or be very condescending to Anglo-Catholics.

Like all faith traditions Anglo-Catholicism has space for people at all stages/elements. Admittedly some stages/elements are more comfortable within a specific tradition than others. I am drawn by quite a bit of what is space for Stage V faith within Anglo Catholicism. Some may be in Scott Peck Stage II which is allied with Fowler III is a better fit.

Jengie

[ 21. December 2017, 20:25: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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L'organist
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posted by Eirenist
quote:
The corner is certainly of the conevos own painting, but she has left them the option of extricating themselves. If they choose to stew in their own juice, that's their decision.
For many years there have been mutterings and outright condemnation of the way some AC priests have played fast-and-loose with the rules about liturgy, calendar, etc and that has been absolutely right.

It is a great pity that the same rigour hasn't been applied to those ConEvo clergy who do the same thing but in the opposite direction.

Worse, some on the ConEvo scale have taken great heart from not only the lack of pastoral discipline but from the way they have been able to use sheer weight of numbers to force their way through into the mainstream.

IMO the difference between the two extremes is this: while the most die-hard ACs are prepared to live-and-let-live with the traditional MOTR (19502 style) CofE tradition, the same cannot be said of some ConEvos who have taken every opportunity to denigrate the MOTR brand as lacking in conviction, not offering 'certainty' and generally being rude at best, hostile at worst.

What is forgotten is that you can find AC parishes everywhere, from city parishes to the smallest outposts; the ConEvos, by contrast, stick to the urban landscape there their activities have the greatest population to work on/with, all the while braying loudly that the 'virtue' of their belief and practice is borne out by their numbers.

I wish +Sarah well. I only hope she is made of sterner stuff than some of our bishops and calls the bluff of congregations such as St Helen, Bishopsgate.

And the next time there is an episcopal vacancy to be filled it is past high time that an AC bishop was appointed, regardless of the colour or flavour of the diocese.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Baptist Trainfan
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Not being an Anglican, and now living to the west of the Severn, I'm not qualified to comment on matters in the Diocese of London (although I lived there for many years).

However I do wonder how many of these very rigid ConEvo folk and churches there really are? For many Evangelicals are much more open and moderate, and I suspect the same would be true of the HTB-type folk. I know St. Helen's is a big church and has a high profile - but may we be in danger of giving it a greater measure of influence than it actually has?

I honestly don't know the answer to that ... but the Evangelical scene in my own denomination is in fact slowly and subtly changing and I suspect that may also be true in the CofE.

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Chorister

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Having been to several services in Creamtealand in which Bishop Sarah has played a key role, I can confidently say that she is a very wise choice.

One of her strong abilities is to be approachable by people from all walks of life, including those who have the simple curiosity of a child. Hearing her explain to one such person how her bishop's staff came apart so she could travel with it, springs to mind. So special and yet so ordinary. I wish her well.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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pete173
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Well, we're glad of her, and will be doing our collective best to support her in leading the Diocese. There will be early engagement with the ConEvos and the Trad Caths, and agreement on the terms of engagement with the Bishops of Fulham and Maidstone. Holding the Diocese together is what we do. Thanks for your prayers for us! [Biased]

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Pete

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Bishops Finger
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As I remarked earlier, our Madam Sacristan (who is firmly of the F-in-F persuasion, for theological rather than misogynistic reasons) has nothing but good to say of +Sarah, and she (Madam) knows whereof she speaks.

That being so, the omens are good, but nevertheless much [Votive] [Votive] [Votive] for +Sarah, +Pete, and the rest of the London team.

What price a female ++Canterbury or ++York next time round?

[Snigger]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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L'organist
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Female Cantuar or Ebor? I don't think so because I don't think ++Justin will go the distance. There have been too many mishandlings and there are worrying clouds about things like Iwerne, not to mention the George Bell business.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Well, you may be right, but I live in hope!

[Biased]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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irreverend tod
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# 18773

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Jengie - thanks for the ref. The 2nd stage I was thinking about is more what has been outlined by Richard Rohr in his book The Divine Dance. Our adjacent FiF priests are big fans and it informs their teaching. In fact we are in much greater talk and collaboration as a result of finding out our similarities as a result of discussing this book than any diocesan initiative - it's an odd world.

On the subject of a female ++, can we have a heads up. + Sarah was 66-1 against and we could have sorted out the parish finances for eternity if we'd known!

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Diocesan Arsonist and Lead thief to the Church of England.

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pete173
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I think if I'd put money on it would have caused a major insider trading scandal...

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Pete

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by irreverend tod:
Leo - more Richard Rohr I think. At it's most basic and what we are teaching our youngsters is that the "I'm right (and going to heaven) and your wrong (and going to hell) idea is best left to three year olds. It could well be Fowler as well, if you give me a reference I can go and read up on it.

While Rohr is very popular, I think he's a heretic and don't give much credence to the stuff I've read from him.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by irreverend tod:
Leo - more Richard Rohr I think. At it's most basic and what we are teaching our youngsters is that the "I'm right (and going to heaven) and your wrong (and going to hell) idea is best left to three year olds. It could well be Fowler as well, if you give me a reference I can go and read up on it.

While Rohr is very popular, I think he's a heretic and don't give much credence to the stuff I've read from him.
Please explain why you believe that Rohr is a heretic as opposed to someone you don't agree with
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leo
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See his stuff about the relationship between Mary Magdalene and Jesus.

Like all heresy there's usually an emphasis on things that orthodoy has underplayed - the following seem to fit that bill:

Salvation = finding your true self

Holy Spirit is another term for ‘inner compass’

All faiths lead to God

Jesus sought to awaken us to something similar to Buddha’s 4 noble truths
He seems to distinguish Jesus and the Christ
He is inclined towards panentheism - “The first body of Christ is creation itself.”
We are all Christ’s because we are all anointed

God is not just a dancer; God is the dance itself – so the Trinity is more like a verb than a noun.

‘the Three are formed and identified by the outpouring and uninhibited flow itself.’ – so is the ‘flow’ the Father? And is not the Father part of the Trinity?

‘For the sake of our minds, it’s helpful to identify three persons,…..even the three names are largely ‘placeholders,’ and a thousand beautiful names for God can be interchanged with each of them.” So is the Trinity merely imagery?

And is the 4th place in Rubilev’s icon reserved or us? Are we destined to be part of a quaternity?

He believes that grace has always been ‘inherent in creation ‘ – no original sin then?

We need to love our shadow side – salvation though tears

The incarnation saves – no need for blood sacrifice

A masculine god results in male woundedness – seeing God as mother is more healthy

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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Well, I think it's fine to think of God as a Mother - I don't believe in a gendered Deity, except in the person of the Son - but there's a lot in that list that does seem heretical.

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I'm not dead yet.

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Enoch
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Although he's mentioned a lot, I've not actually read as much Rohr as a lot of other people have. Does he really say all those things?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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leo
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meant to add: Jesus is suppose to be followed, not worshipped, according to Rohr..

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Although he's mentioned a lot, I've not actually read as much Rohr as a lot of other people have. Does he really say all those things?

Yes - I've read a lot of his stuff

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Amor
Apprentice
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Well, I think it's fine to think of God as a Mother - I don't believe in a gendered Deity, except in the person of the Son - but there's a lot in that list that does seem heretical.

Not to a Quaker,which is probably why a surprising number of Friends enthuse about him.Perhaps, he should come and join us.
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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
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Sorry, Amor. I should have specified that there's a lot that looks heretical from an Anglican viewpoint.

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I'm not dead yet.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Well, I think it's fine to think of God as a Mother - I don't believe in a gendered Deity, except in the person of the Son - but there's a lot in that list that does seem heretical.

I totally agree with you about not believing in a non-gendered Deity but understand your exception as a reference to Christ as the Incarnate Word when the choice was all but inevitable. That's the problem with the first part of your sentence though - it immediately forces an understanding of God as a gendered person, albeit not the gender traditionally assigned. A better way to express it is to say that it's fine to think of God as including the positive qualities we associate with a mother, and those we associate with a father. But even that's limiting the limitless.

[ 25. December 2017, 02:32: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
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That's better put than I managed, Gee. Thank you.

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I'm not dead yet.

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Gee D
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Thank you - the difficulties of discussing what is beyond our knowledge and our language!

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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