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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The New Bishop of London
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Although he's mentioned a lot, I've not actually read as much Rohr as a lot of other people have. Does he really say all those things?
Not often I agree with leo; but having read a few Rohr books I recognise about half of the statements he highlights - and the rest a fairly obvious extrapolation once you accept Rohr's premises.
I'm not sure exactly why he has such pull in the particular circles that he does - I assume its because they start with his writings on the Enneagram.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I don't think I've ever heard of Rohr. But I'd consider myself a reasonably orthodox Anglican and a lot of leo's list seems defensible, although not all of it.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
See his stuff about the relationship between Mary Magdalene and Jesus.
... this sends my Dan Brown alarm blaring ...
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Salvation = finding your true self
Surely a fairly mainstream idea, even if it does sound like something from a self-help manual? See the ending of The Last Battle.
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Holy Spirit is another term for ‘inner compass’
If he means the Holy Spirit causes what we would call the 'inner compass', I could go along with that, although I don't see why we would attribute it to the Spirit rather than the Father and the Son. (Giovanni Guareschi states somewhere that the voice of the crucified Christ in his Don Camillo series is the voice of his conscience.)
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All faiths lead to God
Depends what you mean by that. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says 'The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life." ' But it sounds like Rohr goes further than this?
quote:
Jesus sought to awaken us to something similar to Buddha’s 4 noble truths
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) Whatever one thinks about the compatibility of Buddhism and Christianity, I don't think the Four Noble Truths can easily be found in Christ's teaching - or if they can, they're not central.
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He seems to distinguish Jesus and the Christ
I think I'd agree that since 'being Christ' was an aspect of Jesus' role, rather than the whole of it, a distinction can indeed be made.
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He is inclined towards panentheism - “The first body of Christ is creation itself.”
Debatable, but I don't think that's panentheism. The body of Christ in the sense of the Church, the Eucharist, or Jesus of Nazareth's flesh and blood, are all created things.
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We are all Christ’s because we are all anointed
Mere Christianity has a whole section on how Christianity entails becoming 'a little Christ'.
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God is not just a dancer; God is the dance itself – so the Trinity is more like a verb than a noun.
That sounds like a poetic way of expressing the Scholastic idea that God isn't just one entity among other entities (albeit an entity with special powers), but rather the ground of our being and the reason why we have entities.
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‘the Three are formed and identified by the outpouring and uninhibited flow itself.’ – so is the ‘flow’ the Father? And is not the Father part of the Trinity?
If 'flow' refers to the divine essence, then the quoted part sounds to me more like a restatement of the orthodox belief that the Persons of the Trinity are distinguished solely by their relations to each other, and not by their properties or by their relationship to humanity.
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‘For the sake of our minds, it’s helpful to identify three persons,…..even the three names are largely ‘placeholders,’ and a thousand beautiful names for God can be interchanged with each of them.” So is the Trinity merely imagery?
The quoted section sounds (to me) more like he thinks the names for the Persons of the Trinity are merely imagery. That is, we call them Father, Son and Holy Spirit rather than (say) Alpha, Beta and Gamma because the images of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are more convenient to us.
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And is the 4th place in Rubilev’s icon reserved or us? Are we destined to be part of a quaternity?
I've just looked up Rublev's icon on Wikipedia and am totally stumped by this one.
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He believes that grace has always been ‘inherent in creation ‘ – no original sin then?
I think one can believe grace is inherent in creation without denying original sin. (The Scholastic position, AIUI, was that since existence is a good, a thing that exists is good at least inasmuch as it exists, but that doesn't prevent it from being bad in some other respect.)
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We need to love our shadow side – salvation though tears
That sounds like something from Jung? I don't know anything about Jung but I didn't think he was actually considered heretical.
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The incarnation saves – no need for blood sacrifice
Stepping gently around the PSA debate ... That said, while I don't think we are required to believe any particular model of atonement is better than another, a model that removes the cross altogether does seem a little extreme.
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A masculine god results in male woundedness – seeing God as mother is more healthy
I can see reasons for and against imagining God to be either masculine or feminine, but I'm not sure about 'male woundedness' as a concept ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
The Anglo Catholic wing in London should rejoice that they have a Bishop who gets 2nd stage faith and many of the writers from the Roman Catholic ship; even if they don't like the female packaging.
Some of us love it. Don’t generalise b
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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Amor
Apprentice
# 18031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Sorry, Amor. I should have specified that there's a lot that looks heretical from an Anglican viewpoint.
Is there such a thing as an unifying Anglican viewpoint on heresy. My impression is that that frequently the heretics are in the next parish or the next pew.
There is the paradox of a woman Bishop in a diocese where there a churches that do not accept that women can become priests; the Akinowla-Robinson stand-off; and churches for whom being unevenly matched means contemplating marriage to someone attending a parish from a different strand of the C of E.
Posts: 8 | From: Gong toi and fro | Registered: Mar 2014
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I'm quite happy sharing a pew with a heretic - after all, I am one myself.
It simply means having a different point of view.....opposed to the prevailing view, perhaps, but with a legitimacy of its own.
I hope - otherwise I am a Hell-bound Heretick!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amor:
Is there such a thing as an unifying Anglican viewpoint on heresy. My impression is that that frequently the heretics are in the next parish or the next pew. ...
Oh, probably not. But some of the beliefs mentioned in that list don't seem very Christian.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
He believes that grace has always been ‘inherent in creation ‘ – no original sin then?
What's wrong with this?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
I said "some of" them.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I said "some of" them.
I understand. I was responding to leo's post. The timing in relation to yours was just coincidental.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
This thread is a mystery to me. Obviously Bishop Sarah, from all accounts, is a good choice. If the church appoints her as a diocesan bishop how, as a priest or layman in that diocese, can you say that you don't recognise her as your bishop?
Surely if that is your attitude the church would basically tell you to bugger off. It is a ridiculous situation to be recognised by some in your diocese and not others.
[ 28. December 2017, 11:11: Message edited by: Fuzzipeg ]
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzipeg:
This thread is a mystery to me. Obviously Bishop Sarah, from all accounts, is a good choice. If the church appoints her as a diocesan bishop how, as a priest or layman in that diocese, can you say that you don't recognise her as your bishop?
Surely if that is your attitude the church would basically tell you to bugger off. It is a ridiculous situation to be recognised by some in your diocese and not others.
I think there should be a reciprocal arrangement where those of us who think equality really matters can refuse to recognise the ministry of card-carrying opponents of womens' ordination ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzipeg:
Surely if that is your attitude the church would basically tell you to bugger off. It is a ridiculous situation to be recognised by some in your diocese and not others.
Flying bishops (PEVs) are still a thing.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzipeg:
This thread is a mystery to me. Obviously Bishop Sarah, from all accounts, is a good choice. If the church appoints her as a diocesan bishop how, as a priest or layman in that diocese, can you say that you don't recognise her as your bishop?
Surely if that is your attitude the church would basically tell you to bugger off. It is a ridiculous situation to be recognised by some in your diocese and not others.
I thought that the government appoints CoE diocesan bishops? In any case, a cleric opposed to OWP simply acknowledges her authority as his ordinary, a legal position, and carries on as before with the PEV providing sacramental and pastoral episcopé.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
That is so.
In practice, the PEVs and their respective Diocesan Bishops (the PEVs cover very wide areas of the country) seem to work amicably together, in the usual typically Anglican fudge...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The 3 in the icon look out at us, inviting us to sit in 4th place.
But that doesn't have to be interpreted as making us a fourth member of the Trinity. That is understandable just as the invitation to enter into communion with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and to come up higher.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The 3 in the icon look out at us, inviting us to sit in 4th place.
But that doesn't have to be interpreted as making us a fourth member of the Trinity. That is understandable just as the invitation to enter into communion with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and to come up higher.
Referring to the notes I took at a seminar on Orthodox art and theology at Bossey in 1975 (why throw anything away!), this is the interpretation which Boris Bobrinskoy gave us.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
That's how I've heard Rublev interpreted, and IMHO it seems eminently sensible.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Amor
Apprentice
# 18031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Amor:
Is there such a thing as an unifying Anglican viewpoint on heresy. My impression is that that frequently the heretics are in the next parish or the next pew. ...
Oh, probably not. But some of the beliefs mentioned in that list don't seem very Christian.
Not to you, clearly, within Quakerism, as I said before they wouldn't seem extreme. Indeed sone of the stuff mentioned is what got us persecuted in the seventeenth Century. Presumably, though you migntn't see us as being very Christian, either.
Rohr has been quite a tall poppy within the Roman Catholic Church in the US for a longtime, since well before the Ratzinger Papacy, yet he, apparently, managed to avoid censure from Ratty or his minions. I find that rather odd given the way that the Liberation Theologians and Hans Kung were treated.
Posts: 8 | From: Gong toi and fro | Registered: Mar 2014
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
I apologize, Amor. I'm afraid I only have a very basic knowledge of the Quakers.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The 3 in the icon look out at us, inviting us to sit in 4th place.
But that doesn't have to be interpreted as making us a fourth member of the Trinity. That is understandable just as the invitation to enter into communion with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and to come up higher.
Indeeed - this week's collect says we are his children 'by adoption and grace' and the orthodoxen talk of theosis but Rohr seems to take it further - we become part of the Trinity -a quaternity.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Indeeed - this week's collect says we are his children 'by adoption and grace' and the orthodoxen talk of theosis but Rohr seems to take it further - we become part of the Trinity -a quaternity.
I agree. If Rohr is saying that we become a fourth member of the Trinity, that is not orthodox with either a large or small 'O'.
Theosis is, even though some Prods are uncomfortable when they first encounter it.
[ 30. December 2017, 17:17: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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